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np: UU Suspect Test Round 1 - Sunny Days
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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...You can't just let a sweeper take a toxic/thunder wave and, possibly, a siesmic toss from chansey; you'll end up dying before you can actually go on a sweep. Also, saying that 3 calm minds from a raikou breaks chansey, think again. As FlareBlitz said:
This proves why chansey is broken. And you can't simply switch in a counter and let HIM take the toxic, because chansey can still stall him out. And, as I said before, chansey still has a chance to survive after those 2 aura spheres.
Chansey doesnt have Leftovers. This means she cant heal up hazard damage or damage from the attacks hitting her when she switches in thus she has to use softboiled at a certain time (if she doesnt she is essentially dead) and exactly when this is happening you can get your sweeper in for free.
Logical, huh?
Logical, huh?
1316 Atk vs 509 Def & 704 HP (95 Base Power): 343 - 405 (48.72% - 57.53%) Life orb 252 raikou vs 252 / 252 Chansey
The problem with your rest set is that raikou must be at +6 with a life orb in order to 2hko Chansey with thunderbolt.(granted chansey is running max specail attack). Thus to combat that this one could use tbolt and aura sphere with cm rest but that gives poor coverage especailly when Raikou desperately needs the coverage of HP.
In other news I still don't know if chansey is broken because there clearly are ways around it but she can also with stand literally uber powered hits; however i do know that comparisons to gen 4 chansey must stop. Gen 5 chansey with the eviolite is a totally different beast only further bolstered by the change in wish mechanics. Being able to take on physical sweepers and wall specail attackers even more, all while healing and supporting the team all day. My other problem with the don't ban chansey arguement is that due to chansey being a defensive threat one can not simply look at her individually but must take the team into consideration. Due to her single weakness a simple dou of her and slowbro hard wall most of the tier.
My problem with the ban chansey arguement is that she is indeed a set up bait if the right pokemon can get in. And once set up the sweeper can sweep and the taunt can c block chansey all day. The problem lies in both switching in depending on the status, finishing her off, and her not running to run of her teams for Brotection.
What sweeper? A sweeper that can OHKO Chansey (Nothing)? A sweeper that would get cripped by T-Wave or a sweeper that would slowly die from Toxic? Chansey with boosted defenses can easily make up for the lack of leftovers recover because it can never die to a neutral hit.
Adamant 252 Atk Heracross Close Combat vs 252HP/252 Def Eviolite Chansey: 78.84% - 92.9%
This is a Close Combat from an Adamant Heracross. This isn't even a OHKO. Chansey can pretty much tank anything in the whole tier, spread status and spread Wish to a whole team.
A pokemon is obviously broken when not even a SE move from one of the most powerful Pokemon in the whole tier can KO it.
We aren't discussing banning Chansey because it can hit back, we're discussing it because it walls the whole Metagame. As I stated, not even non-boosted SE moves can OHKO. Once Sun is gone and Victini are gone (let's face it, it will happen), not much will counter Chansey.
And for your Raikou, Chansey can cripple it with status. Pressure or not status will kill it. Either way with Seismic Toss, it'll be breaking subs and you need far more than a +1 to KO it. And rest on Raikou is unconventional.
Chansey will be and is somewhat over-centralizing the UU metagame (when you need rest raikou to stop it), with wish passing, status and its walling capabilites.
There's still the fact that Raikou can't 2HKO Chansey with its strongest move until it's completely maxed its special attack out. At one boost per turn, that means you need about one Seismic toss PP and one toxic PP to just stall it to death.
You're also, of course, posting on the assumption that trying to treat Chansey like set-up bait is in turn leaving you open to something coming in on your set-up sweeper to ruin its day. Chansey's not playing in a vaccuum and none of the things said to destroy it have any way of locking it in for them to set up; Chansey has five teammates it's supporting by walling and statusing everything, and those wishes mean what set-up you've managed isn't going to intimidate something coming in while you continue to try setting up on Chansey.
Secondly, the fact that Chansey invalidates every other wall except Slowbro just by merit of its existence is more than a tad broken, don't you think?
First of all, stop using stupid as fuck calculations or stats. Def-boost from Evo or not, you are not using a fucking min Defense Chansey. Every fucking Chansey will have max Defense. Whether you max HP or Special Defense after that is up for debate, but don't try to fucking post 508 Special Defense calculations with 704 HP. That is not fucking happening.
I don't understand why you guys keep bringing up that it can survive a Close Combat/(insert strong physical move) and then "cripple" something...
If you take take a shitload of damage just to cripple a physical attacker, chances are you're probably switching the fuck out right after that, the foe paralyzed or not. Assuming SR is down, Chansey isn't going to be coming into anything as easily anymore, including powerhouse Special Attackers.
Well it just looked like I just describe a Pokemon battle.
Oh wells.
P Fucking S, Deoxys-D can survive a Adamant CBTar Crunch and a Jolly CBHeracross Megahorn, so take that with a grain of salt.
PP Fucking S, Azelf/Mew can absolutely destroy Chansey as Special Attackers.
I don't understand why you guys keep bringing up that it can survive a Close Combat/(insert strong physical move) and then "cripple" something...
If you take take a shitload of damage just to cripple a physical attacker, chances are you're probably switching the fuck out right after that, the foe paralyzed or not. Assuming SR is down, Chansey isn't going to be coming into anything as easily anymore, including powerhouse Special Attackers.
Well it just looked like I just describe a Pokemon battle.
Oh wells.
P Fucking S, Deoxys-D can survive a Adamant CBTar Crunch and a Jolly CBHeracross Megahorn, so take that with a grain of salt.
PP Fucking S, Azelf/Mew can absolutely destroy Chansey as Special Attackers.
They're not saying "O lets leave chansey in on fighting types" They are providing an example of how strong chansey's physical presence is against some of the strongest physical attacks..yes chansey does survive a super-effecive+STAB close combat..now imagine how well it can take other physical attacks that are neutral or weaker...we all know chansey's main weakness is defense to the point (w/o Evolite) she was 2HKO or OHKO by any decently strong attack move, now with that item muscling your way through her is much more difficult...which is why she is an issue now
EDIT: Mew YES! which is why chansey should have no business ever switching into mew...And to those that list things that beat chansey..chansey isnt just going to stay in and let you do them..she is going to wish to an appropriate counter or hit you with a status move on the switch
Everytime Chansey is switching in, it's taking 12% and whatever measly attack it's taking. If you choose to status or Wish the switch before getting the fuck out, that damage is staying there, and it will take the same amount if the battle scenario repeats itself later game. But knowing this, you can provide a double switch and predict when Chansey is coming in again.
But at this point I just described a Pokemon Battle....but sure we should probably also ban Slowbro if we ban Chansey cause gee golly, Slowbro is hard as hell to break by physical attackers!! Wait, use a special attacker? Well geeze let's switch out like we do with Chansey against fighters!!!!
Chansey is kind of like Multi-Scale Dragonite, it has to be relatively extremely healthy to use it's 'skills' to your advantage. And is almost no different than Blissey in OU. Sponge basically 90% of Special attacking world, avoid physical moves even if it can take one here or there. And it's not being any closer to getting banned either.
It's definitely not a: throw Pokemon into battle and win Pokemon. No where does it make it easier to win. In fact, it makes it fucking even longer to win if people decide to be dicks and attempt to stall you out. As it has been said, Chansey is 100% fucking predictable to the fullest. But if your entire team is built around: getting walled by one Pokemon, then you wouldn't succeed with or without Chansey anyways.
But at this point I just described a Pokemon Battle....but sure we should probably also ban Slowbro if we ban Chansey cause gee golly, Slowbro is hard as hell to break by physical attackers!! Wait, use a special attacker? Well geeze let's switch out like we do with Chansey against fighters!!!!
Chansey is kind of like Multi-Scale Dragonite, it has to be relatively extremely healthy to use it's 'skills' to your advantage. And is almost no different than Blissey in OU. Sponge basically 90% of Special attacking world, avoid physical moves even if it can take one here or there. And it's not being any closer to getting banned either.
It's definitely not a: throw Pokemon into battle and win Pokemon. No where does it make it easier to win. In fact, it makes it fucking even longer to win if people decide to be dicks and attempt to stall you out. As it has been said, Chansey is 100% fucking predictable to the fullest. But if your entire team is built around: getting walled by one Pokemon, then you wouldn't succeed with or without Chansey anyways.
Are we talking about a Cobalion's Close Combat? 'cause that thing is weak as shit. You might as well be hitting the enemy with Terrakion's Brick Break.
Anyway, the more I read into this, the more I'd agree Chansey is a stand out amongst suspects... but I am wary to consider it ban-worthy... There are still so many offensive Pokemon that set up all day on it. Its inability to "do anything" to many foes is a major concern when using it. It doesn't help to wall if the enemy can set up on you and sweep your team. Plus, the fact it never carries leftovers gives it a hard time checking hail, especially if it has to deal with entry hazards too. Froslass sets up all day on Chansey, and with hail and Spike damage, you're going to have a hard time taking on Kyurem's Specs Blizzard (or hell, full-powered blizzards from any special sweeper).
Plus if Chansey loses its Eviolite to Knock Off, or worse, Trick... wow, it gets boned hard.
I'm not arguing that its strengths don't merit consideration though. It's so damn bulky, and is basically an "fu" not only to to special sweepers, but a huge variety of physical and special offensive Pokemon.
Anyway, the more I read into this, the more I'd agree Chansey is a stand out amongst suspects... but I am wary to consider it ban-worthy... There are still so many offensive Pokemon that set up all day on it. Its inability to "do anything" to many foes is a major concern when using it. It doesn't help to wall if the enemy can set up on you and sweep your team. Plus, the fact it never carries leftovers gives it a hard time checking hail, especially if it has to deal with entry hazards too. Froslass sets up all day on Chansey, and with hail and Spike damage, you're going to have a hard time taking on Kyurem's Specs Blizzard (or hell, full-powered blizzards from any special sweeper).
Plus if Chansey loses its Eviolite to Knock Off, or worse, Trick... wow, it gets boned hard.
I'm not arguing that its strengths don't merit consideration though. It's so damn bulky, and is basically an "fu" not only to to special sweepers, but a huge variety of physical and special offensive Pokemon.
more likely than not chansye can use wish protect after swich in (believe i do it with minimal damage if i predict correctly) * still the protect turn is very usable if you know how
you don't stay in heracross, you send dusclops, you don't stay in mew, you sent something like deo-d/weavile (and yes i use weavile in stall), you don't stay in arcanine, you sent suicune/milotic, you SWITCH (likely with a Wish) this is a defensive poke that has no bussiness at being against stuff she can't to sh¡t to, just like SkarmBlyss last gen, Blyssey will not stay in earthquake and skarmory will never stay in thunderbolt
PS: still not saying it's broken, but STOP saying that a poke she cleraly has no bussines going against will kill her, is just if i stayed tyranitar against condelurr, i deserve to lose him if i'm dumb enough to do so
PSS: tangrowth and the other sun abusers are too good for other different reasons, ater kyurem and Drought/victini goes, i think we'll have a way more acurate idea of how broken chansey might be
you don't stay in heracross, you send dusclops, you don't stay in mew, you sent something like deo-d/weavile (and yes i use weavile in stall), you don't stay in arcanine, you sent suicune/milotic, you SWITCH (likely with a Wish) this is a defensive poke that has no bussiness at being against stuff she can't to sh¡t to, just like SkarmBlyss last gen, Blyssey will not stay in earthquake and skarmory will never stay in thunderbolt
PS: still not saying it's broken, but STOP saying that a poke she cleraly has no bussines going against will kill her, is just if i stayed tyranitar against condelurr, i deserve to lose him if i'm dumb enough to do so
PSS: tangrowth and the other sun abusers are too good for other different reasons, ater kyurem and Drought/victini goes, i think we'll have a way more acurate idea of how broken chansey might be
Cool you used Protect! And i set a Sub up Chansey cant break and proceeded to sweep your entire team with the boost i get in the coming free turn.....
But oh no you decided not to Protect in this round but rather switch in your Counter so you wont be swept. Good job your Chansey just took 12% permanent Damage and i have a +1/2/3 Sweeper behind a Sub, who will damage whatever switched in at least hard OR i can decide to switch out safely.
Oh even defensive Pokes like Weezing and Muk can beat Chansey easily with Painsplit as does any Ghost with Sub+Painsplit.
Then theres also disable or Snatch (not only Chansey can use this and believe me shes more screwed!) working perfectly to counter her.
Be creative and think about usable methods to beat Chansey. Dont be stuck in your I-MUST-OHKO-THIS-POKE-OR-BEAT-IT-WITHOUT-THINKING-MENTALITY.
Chansey is definitely a top-notch Poke but not the unbeatable wall you make her out to be.
Conflict, keep in mind that we can't make our teams exactly like yours, and nor can we just throw on a counter just like that; a well-built team should have pokemon that work well together.
And I'm not saying Chansey is unbeatable. Matter a fact, I don't have too much trouble with it anymore. But then there's the fact that, since you and I have little trouble, that doesn't mean nobody on the whole server does.
And did you just talk about Muk? ._.
And I'm not saying Chansey is unbeatable. Matter a fact, I don't have too much trouble with it anymore. But then there's the fact that, since you and I have little trouble, that doesn't mean nobody on the whole server does.
And did you just talk about Muk? ._.
I'm sorry, are you guys trolling? Or do you legitimately believe you're advancing the discussion with posts like this? I'm not sure which is worse.
I don't mean to call you out specifically mate, but besides ToF, I have yet to see anyone post anything in the last few pages that could even remotely be construed as a good argument against Chansey fitting the Defensive characteristic. It's all been "hey, five pokemon in this metagame of 500 can beat it" or "well this means we should ban [pokemon x that isn't remotely as good as chansey] too!"
I mean, if we've reached a relative consensus on the blob I suppose we could move on to the other suspects? I've been wanting to seek and share updated impressions on sun and hail.
Please share them, I actually want to move on (still on the fence with Chansey but she is at least suspect worth) on other things and hear other people views about the Underweather Wars since apparently the two dominat forces (Sun and Hail) have both things that at the very least make them very powerful, Hail has Kyurem and Sun Victini, I actually thing than Victini-less Sun will retain the sheer power since barely any chlorophyll sweeper still has growth and every fire type have a double stab moves, Hail retains Aboma and almost every other poke, but looses Kyurem, which is largely their best sweeper, and after him gone will take a huge hit (not to make him unviable but enough to not be tooo good)
As far as opinions go, I don't think this discussion, or discussions of the like can even be "advanced". People have stated their opinions on the matter, and they will most likely stick to them(Unless someone provides paradigm-shifting insight, which is not likely). We can argue all day, but when it comes down to it, everything about this argument is subjective. I guess I'm a big-picture person, so I don't even see why people without a 1400+ rating are posting in this thread. Yes, I know, I would be horrible on a debate team.
That would be all of 7 people, last I checked, although a couple keep bouncing above and below that mark. I was actually going to try and appeal the system be the same as OU...
I suppose the better question would be for hail or sun, what would be the better way to go about it? Remove the weather, or get rid of the supposed "best abuser" (Kyugen and Vicini respectively).
If you want to play the elitist bullshit then guess I can say let's all just ignore people who came in after 2010.
I think that Chansey might be broken, definitely a suspect. To all those who say that "x can 2hko it at +3" or "just pack something designed to beat it" or "you can set up on it", these are totally invalid arguments.
1. How do you expect to get to +3 on something like raikou against chansey? It breaks your subs with stoss and toxics/twaves you if you go for another boost. Anyone who just lets you set up for free has to be really dumb. No skilled player would allow chansey to be setup fodder, and if by chace it is, they SWITCH. Not to mention needing to be at a large # of boosts to have a chance to 2hko. Thats like the definition of broken.
2. Needing to pack something designed for chansey is overcentralization, by definition. You need to keep your sweeper that can beat chansey alive by not using it, but then chansey walls most of the rest of your team. If you try and set up the sweeper, they go to a counter to said sweeper- a hypothetical lose lose.
3. Yeah, i covered this one in #1.
1. How do you expect to get to +3 on something like raikou against chansey? It breaks your subs with stoss and toxics/twaves you if you go for another boost. Anyone who just lets you set up for free has to be really dumb. No skilled player would allow chansey to be setup fodder, and if by chace it is, they SWITCH. Not to mention needing to be at a large # of boosts to have a chance to 2hko. Thats like the definition of broken.
2. Needing to pack something designed for chansey is overcentralization, by definition. You need to keep your sweeper that can beat chansey alive by not using it, but then chansey walls most of the rest of your team. If you try and set up the sweeper, they go to a counter to said sweeper- a hypothetical lose lose.
3. Yeah, i covered this one in #1.
Overcentralization is a dumb thing someone invented who didnt grasp the whole aspect of competitive Pokemon. SD-Lucarios in OU right now use Ice Punch to specifically deal with Gliscor, Landorus, Virizion and sometimes even Terrakion and Excadrill (lol) are using HP[Ice] just to deal with Gliscor. When everyone packs something to defeat Gliscor than he must be a overcentralizing force, right? He must be broken, right? He isnt and the metagame is perfectly fine with him. Apply the same logic to Chansey.
Overcentralization is a stupid term and shouldnt be used for tiering purposes.
You deal with Chansey as you would deal with any Sweeper/Wall/w.e. - you prepare for it.
Ps: Dugtrio removes Chansey easily with the right moveset if you are that worried about her.
Dugtrio does not 2hko Chansey with CB Earthquake while Chansey 2hkos Dugtrio with Seismic Toss (lol at that by the way). So unless someone switches their Chansey into your Dugtrio (>_>), it's going to lose.
You're right, he things you described are not overcentralization, but that doesn't mean overcentralization is not a legitimate occurrence. Overcentralization means a metagame shifts to exclusively around a Pokemon. The best example would be Garchomp in DP OU. Each team had to carry at least 2 limited counters and a check to be able to deal with it. Add on top of that most teams carried a sandstreamer/garchomp for themselves and you were looking at overcentralization in the metagame. It's a pretty rare occurrence and only really starts to happen when something way too good in the metagame sticks around a lot longer than it should.
Now on the other hand, carrying something to deal with Chansey wouldn't be overcentralization unless the amount of counters/checks were extremely limited. I wouldn't say an overcentralization argument applies to Chansey since there are numerous ways to handle it, but that doesn't mean it's still not too good for UU (not taking sides :O).
Also everyone: cut the condescending bullshit. Seriously.
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