You do know Deoxys-d gets Taunt and Seismic Toss, right?
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np: UU Suspect Test Round 1 - Sunny Days
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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That probably has more to do with not people not preparing for it but you CAN'T prepare for it. We're talking about something with straight 100/100/100 defenses across the board, reliable recovery and EVERY TM in the entire game and perfect coverage if it so decided so.
I mean what can you do? You bring in something like Xatu/Espeon expecting it to Taunt/WoW and turns out to be a boost sweeper. You send in a sweeper and get statused, you send in Arcanine to try take a WoW and take a tremendous ammount of damage. It also differs from Deoxys-D in if you try Toxic it and you'll be forced to make sure you don't mind being poisoned too unlike D-D who is outright nipped in the bud.
I mean about the best thing you can do is attempt to nuke it with V-create/Flare Blitz in sun/SpecsMeteor/Toxic with something which can take an attack.
Does indeed but not much use if you switch in on a status, if its Toxic don't expect it to last long if its ThunderWave then expect it to wish first then switch, and see that Chansey flee to something that can take on Deoxys-D. Deoxys-D can't safely switch in and the fact that Chansey will force something out easily gives her a free turn to do whatever she pleases then run off. So I don't see him as a solution at all to Chansey - unless of course it plans to stay in but once you taunt it chances are it will run away. Which is why I didn't really bother noting taunt since the damage Chansey causes are with the incoming switch ins. My only safe solution to it is generally turning to Xatu setting up a screen then switching to Cobalion who proceeds to taunt it then damage the switch in and run off.
i believe that the reason that everybody thinks that chansey is broken is 'cause we are all used to 4th gen uu since we haven't been playing 5th gen uu not even for a month...
and since chansey was the best special wall and could take a few physical hits also everybody knew that chansey was very good at her job in 4th gen uu!
and suddenly in comes an improved chansey with a 50% boost to her defences and the new improved wish mechanics!all these,at first,seem very much for uu to handle(since chansey was already a superb special wall which offered great team support) but then we also think of what belongs to uu now...
so let's see our most interesting newcomers:
mew:he is capable of shutting down chansey completely with taunt while at the same time offering great general utility.
deoxys d:same as above
azelf:while it cannot directly 2hko her,after a np it 2hkoes while chansey usually status you(one of the few full ofensive special attackers that can beat chansey)
kyurem:the sub-hone claws set makes chansey setup fodder and mixed sets can beat her if played properly
victini:victini outright murders chansey if it is physical or mixed(although there is not much point in bringing victini in the discussion,cause as soon as v-generate gets released he will go to ou)
wobbufet:she can trap and tickle chansey so a pursuit user can easily eliminate her
cobalion:most sets carry taunt which completely shut her down and make her setup fodder
suicune:crocune beats chansey every time while the sleeptalk set with roar instead of cm racks up easily entry damage while chansey cannot do much(excpet from passing wishes but then she dies eventually from passive damage since she doesn't have lefties and she gets roared which means that she cannot heal herself)
celebi:celebi gets walled most times but chansey cannot do anyhting either,although he can leech seed chansey or whatever comes in after chansey uses wish or even t-wave if you predict a switch.
ok that's a small list of the most strong pokes that came to uu!
we can see that most of them can beat chansey through various means!the uu metagame is not the same as it was used to be...
chansey has superb(godlike i would say)defensive abilites but the fact that it has zero predictability and zero offensive pressence hurts her a lot!
sure it walls a lot of pokes and can pass wishes easily to her team but there many ways to stop her from doing her job...
and finally to all these saying that chansey easily walls most of the metagame and passes wishes again and again to the whole team i want to ask something...if chansey always uses wish and then it switches out then when does it heal itself?
it's not as easy as you make it sound to pass a wish to something especially when you are so PREDICTABLE!90% of the time chansey uses wish and wish alone!even vaporeon has more unpredictability since it can actually attack so you don't know if it will throw a water attack or make a wish.same goes for blissey to a smaller degree...every wishpasser out there has an easier time passing wishes than chansey 'cause chansey is so predictable...
so everyone just relax and let us see how chansey will fair against the new uu heavy hitters!!!
and since chansey was the best special wall and could take a few physical hits also everybody knew that chansey was very good at her job in 4th gen uu!
and suddenly in comes an improved chansey with a 50% boost to her defences and the new improved wish mechanics!all these,at first,seem very much for uu to handle(since chansey was already a superb special wall which offered great team support) but then we also think of what belongs to uu now...
so let's see our most interesting newcomers:
mew:he is capable of shutting down chansey completely with taunt while at the same time offering great general utility.
deoxys d:same as above
azelf:while it cannot directly 2hko her,after a np it 2hkoes while chansey usually status you(one of the few full ofensive special attackers that can beat chansey)
kyurem:the sub-hone claws set makes chansey setup fodder and mixed sets can beat her if played properly
victini:victini outright murders chansey if it is physical or mixed(although there is not much point in bringing victini in the discussion,cause as soon as v-generate gets released he will go to ou)
wobbufet:she can trap and tickle chansey so a pursuit user can easily eliminate her
cobalion:most sets carry taunt which completely shut her down and make her setup fodder
suicune:crocune beats chansey every time while the sleeptalk set with roar instead of cm racks up easily entry damage while chansey cannot do much(excpet from passing wishes but then she dies eventually from passive damage since she doesn't have lefties and she gets roared which means that she cannot heal herself)
celebi:celebi gets walled most times but chansey cannot do anyhting either,although he can leech seed chansey or whatever comes in after chansey uses wish or even t-wave if you predict a switch.
ok that's a small list of the most strong pokes that came to uu!
we can see that most of them can beat chansey through various means!the uu metagame is not the same as it was used to be...
chansey has superb(godlike i would say)defensive abilites but the fact that it has zero predictability and zero offensive pressence hurts her a lot!
sure it walls a lot of pokes and can pass wishes easily to her team but there many ways to stop her from doing her job...
and finally to all these saying that chansey easily walls most of the metagame and passes wishes again and again to the whole team i want to ask something...if chansey always uses wish and then it switches out then when does it heal itself?
it's not as easy as you make it sound to pass a wish to something especially when you are so PREDICTABLE!90% of the time chansey uses wish and wish alone!even vaporeon has more unpredictability since it can actually attack so you don't know if it will throw a water attack or make a wish.same goes for blissey to a smaller degree...every wishpasser out there has an easier time passing wishes than chansey 'cause chansey is so predictable...
so everyone just relax and let us see how chansey will fair against the new uu heavy hitters!!!
man that post was so fucking bad i want to change my vote from uu to bl for chansey just because of it
yep shows how useful this user is to the conversation
edit:
most players use wish/softboiled rather than wish/protect anyway since it is more useful most of the time so it can heal itself quite often
yep shows how useful this user is to the conversation
edit:
most players use wish/softboiled rather than wish/protect anyway since it is more useful most of the time so it can heal itself quite often
HAHAHAHAHA! V-Create has been out for weeks now :P.
Besides, a good way for mew to kill chansey is knock off+psycho shock. It may even be the best, since it removes the problems the rest of your team will have.
Softboiled :P.
Please don't talk about things when you have no idea what you're saying.*coughV-Createcough*
i know that v-generate is released in po but i thought that it hadn't come out in the cartridges.that's a mistake in my part...
but i don't see how this mistake makes any of my points invalid...and i haven't seen any chansey carrying wish and softboiled lately...
i explained above my mistake...
again i don't see why you think that i don't have any idea of what i am talking...are any of the points i made so horribly invalid?
the only think that you understood from my post was that i didn't know that v-generate victini was released in real life?really?
and anyway i don't understand why this thread is so hostile...whenever someone says something wrong(not with a bad attitute just something wrong)everyone jumps on the hate wagon and starts flaming...why all the hate guys?
SHUT THE FUCK UP I'M NOT HOSTILE YOU'RE JUST AN IDIOT!
/jokes
Let's set aside the Chansey debate for a bit. I know I've asked about this before, but does anyone see why Victini or Drought SHOULDN'T be banned?
EDIT:
And @ Below, non-Eviolite Chansey is extremely viable. I use Knock Off Empoleon, and even without an Eviolite it still seems to wall half my team.
Worst case scenario:
Assuming we do implement a complex ban, will Eviolite Chansey ever make an appearance in OU?
Also, for those posts pertaining to the topic, Chansey isn't completely useless without Eviolite. I'd rather set up on it, actually, and there are a few good, viable ways in doing so.
Assuming we do implement a complex ban, will Eviolite Chansey ever make an appearance in OU?
Also, for those posts pertaining to the topic, Chansey isn't completely useless without Eviolite. I'd rather set up on it, actually, and there are a few good, viable ways in doing so.
Okay, I know Jabba said that he disliked the idea of complex bans in UU, but I really thought I should bring up at least this one. Feel free to let me know if this is not okay, however.
Essentially, the ability sun has in UU to run 3 Chlorophyllers on the same team, all with ridiculous speed and sweeping potential, as well as sleep, priority, and a variety of coverage, is eeriely reminiscent of Rain in OU when Swift Swim was not claused out. It's none of the chlorophyllers individually which is causing an issue, but the combination of multiples which together can just tear down teams, so I think we should at least think about clausing Drought+Chlorophyll similarly to Aldaron's proposal in OU. If we don't want to do this then bans on several chlorophyllers may well be warranted.
I know this may not be the issue at hand currently with literal monsters in the tier (and perhaps their imbalances make it harder to tell if a complex ban is warranted), but once at least round one is over I think this may well be a big issue, so I just wanted to kick off some talking about it at least - not suggest that it should be put in place right now. Given the amount of controversy this kind of thing caused in OU I thought that having more time to consider it could only be a good thing..
EDIT: Just to clarify, currently I'm only sure on Victini being broken in terms of sun or elements thereof, and am very much unsure as to whether any chlorophyllers or indeed the combination of many are broken at present.
Essentially, the ability sun has in UU to run 3 Chlorophyllers on the same team, all with ridiculous speed and sweeping potential, as well as sleep, priority, and a variety of coverage, is eeriely reminiscent of Rain in OU when Swift Swim was not claused out. It's none of the chlorophyllers individually which is causing an issue, but the combination of multiples which together can just tear down teams, so I think we should at least think about clausing Drought+Chlorophyll similarly to Aldaron's proposal in OU. If we don't want to do this then bans on several chlorophyllers may well be warranted.
I know this may not be the issue at hand currently with literal monsters in the tier (and perhaps their imbalances make it harder to tell if a complex ban is warranted), but once at least round one is over I think this may well be a big issue, so I just wanted to kick off some talking about it at least - not suggest that it should be put in place right now. Given the amount of controversy this kind of thing caused in OU I thought that having more time to consider it could only be a good thing..
EDIT: Just to clarify, currently I'm only sure on Victini being broken in terms of sun or elements thereof, and am very much unsure as to whether any chlorophyllers or indeed the combination of many are broken at present.
I think sun is broken altogether. We have sweepers like Sawsbuck, Tangrowth, and Victreebel running around, but we also have a lot of other stuff. For one, Victini completely breaks sun. V-Create is ridiculous. But there's a very large chance Victini will be banned anyway, so I'll move on. Solar Power Charizard is pretty powerful in UU. Its Fire Blast is more powerful than Victini's V-Create. Let's look at this:
Charizard has a base 120 power move with Solar Power (*1.5), STAB (*1.5), Sun (*1.5), and Specs (*1.5). That's a 607.5 move from a 109 SAtk stat.
Victini has a base 180 power move with STAB (*1.5), Sun (*1.5), and a Band (*1.5). That's a 607.5 power move from a 100 Atk stat.
So Charizard is more powerful, and its stats don't drop. In addition, Charizard has the same speed and is capable of raising it with Dragon Dance, making it even harder to kill. Charizard isn't weak to Sucker Punch or Shadow Sneak while it retains its resistance to Bullet Punch and Mach Punch. Pokemon like Honchkrow and Houndoom can't hard counter Charizard because Charizard has access to other STAB moves like Air Slash. Arguments like "Charizard is SR weak" just aren't enough, because it's not too hard to keep SR off the field.
And it's not just Charizard. Pokemon like Arcanine will destroy with the Sun out. Boosted Flare Blitz, Extremespeed, extra power Morning Sun, Water weakness removed, etc. Can you imagine a Flash Fire Sun Houndoom's Fire Blast? Shit even a Solar Power Sunflora can abuse Solarbeam.
We can ban Chlorophyll+Drought, or Victini+Drought, or Chlorophyll+Victini+Drought, but sun will be broken in UU.
SJ Crew posted this several pages back, and I think it sums up the complex ban discussion.
Charizard has a base 120 power move with Solar Power (*1.5), STAB (*1.5), Sun (*1.5), and Specs (*1.5). That's a 607.5 move from a 109 SAtk stat.
Victini has a base 180 power move with STAB (*1.5), Sun (*1.5), and a Band (*1.5). That's a 607.5 power move from a 100 Atk stat.
So Charizard is more powerful, and its stats don't drop. In addition, Charizard has the same speed and is capable of raising it with Dragon Dance, making it even harder to kill. Charizard isn't weak to Sucker Punch or Shadow Sneak while it retains its resistance to Bullet Punch and Mach Punch. Pokemon like Honchkrow and Houndoom can't hard counter Charizard because Charizard has access to other STAB moves like Air Slash. Arguments like "Charizard is SR weak" just aren't enough, because it's not too hard to keep SR off the field.
And it's not just Charizard. Pokemon like Arcanine will destroy with the Sun out. Boosted Flare Blitz, Extremespeed, extra power Morning Sun, Water weakness removed, etc. Can you imagine a Flash Fire Sun Houndoom's Fire Blast? Shit even a Solar Power Sunflora can abuse Solarbeam.
We can ban Chlorophyll+Drought, or Victini+Drought, or Chlorophyll+Victini+Drought, but sun will be broken in UU.
SJ Crew posted this several pages back, and I think it sums up the complex ban discussion.
I think we should start discussing banning Chlorophyll before discussing a complex ban...
you haven't seen wish or softboiled...
NO ONE uses a chansey without one of those moves.
Well, SJ was addressing the idea of Pokemon+ability bans, which I never mentioned, I only brought up the possibility of Chlorophyll+Drought. Chlorophyll alone would be entirely preferable too actually, which is a good point MWL, I guess I was stuck in the mindset of discussing OU. I don't think banning Chlorophyll actually soft-bans anything so that argument doesn't hold up.
In any case, I'm still unsure of Sun being broken as of yet, though this may be since other suspects overshadow it. But either way it's hard to tell if sun without Chlorophyll would or would not be broken, yes the Fire STAB is still there but there are no fast Fires in UU, eliminating that issue. I just think that there's a point in at least seeing if it isn't through removing Chlorophyll before eliminating the entire weather. Without the hoards of Chlorophyllers currently running around it should be comparatively easy to determine if the abuse of sun's other benefits still break a ton of stuff, or if Sun is broken in UU even without Chlorophyll. I basically just think it'd be worth putting up with a new form of chlorophyll-less sun for a round just to at least test this out.
In any case, I'm still unsure of Sun being broken as of yet, though this may be since other suspects overshadow it. But either way it's hard to tell if sun without Chlorophyll would or would not be broken, yes the Fire STAB is still there but there are no fast Fires in UU, eliminating that issue. I just think that there's a point in at least seeing if it isn't through removing Chlorophyll before eliminating the entire weather. Without the hoards of Chlorophyllers currently running around it should be comparatively easy to determine if the abuse of sun's other benefits still break a ton of stuff, or if Sun is broken in UU even without Chlorophyll. I basically just think it'd be worth putting up with a new form of chlorophyll-less sun for a round just to at least test this out.
On the other hand, I tend to use offensive teams and I'm always fucked sideways by Chlorophyll if I don't kill Vulpix outright and find no time to setup Rain.
Yeah, I'm in agreement that sun is broken in general. There's a good few fire types that can easily abuse it - Arcanine's Flare Blitz in the sun destroys everything, Victini, Charizard, RotomH. Hell, I fought a LO Moltres in the sun earlier and I was wrecked by it. Then there's the chloro sweepers, all of which are so powerful and often carry sleep powder which makes them very hard to counter. Growth is a great move under sunlight.
I think Sun is the problem, not the others. Complex ban isn't necessary here, IMO.
I think Sun is the problem, not the others. Complex ban isn't necessary here, IMO.
I just really hope people don't forego banning Victini by saying it's going to be OU anyway.
read more carfully...he told me that chansey often carries softboiled AND wish together instead of protect and wish and i replied to him that i haven't seen any chansey carrying softboiled AND wish at the same time...
How is that "wasting" a wish? If you end up at MORE health than Wish + Protect would have gotten you, than you GAINED by using Softboiled. Whether Wish gave you back 20% or 50%, all that matters is your final HP at the end of the turn Wish is granted.
I'd see it as different if Protect had 20 PP or something, but Protect and Softboiled have the same base PP, so there's no such thing as "wasting" PP based on that decision.
Your concern about being hit before getting the chance to use Softboiled is a concern, but PP is unrelated.
I'd see it as different if Protect had 20 PP or something, but Protect and Softboiled have the same base PP, so there's no such thing as "wasting" PP based on that decision.
Your concern about being hit before getting the chance to use Softboiled is a concern, but PP is unrelated.
Protect is the safer option for straight-up walling while still being able to do baton pass support, and also is good for scouting.
Softboiled is the better option for being able to deal with a variety of situations-- why wait for wish when you can just heal up? Being able to Softboiled + Wish can be useful too. It's not as good as protect (it doesn't block a taunt for instance) at scouting, but it is still a capable scouting move.
They both have their advantages, depending on your preference.
Softboiled is the better option for being able to deal with a variety of situations-- why wait for wish when you can just heal up? Being able to Softboiled + Wish can be useful too. It's not as good as protect (it doesn't block a taunt for instance) at scouting, but it is still a capable scouting move.
They both have their advantages, depending on your preference.
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