np: UU Suspect Test Round 1 - Sunny Days

[jamashawalker]

So guys, I know no one cares about laddering right now, but has anyone actually used a rain team this metagame? I just recently made one and I was really surprised by how successful it was. Absolutely no one is prepared for rain and upon seeing that you don't have your own auto-weather, most players readily sacrifice their own weather setters. Even the more intelligent players have issue, because both Vulpix and Hippo absolutely cannot switch into anything, and even Abomasnow has issues with Kabutops.

Rain has a lot of excellent support Pokemon in UU this gen (Roserade, Crobat, Zapdos, Jolteon) and one major new sweeper (Kingdra!). I'd recommend anyone who is bored before the ladder reset give it a shot once the Smogon server is back online...

Where's my damn toxicroak!?! O that's right it's in bloody OU!!! :(

i would like to hear how everyone has been dealing with staraptor...to me he seems like the latios of ou except that he cuts its own health instead of it's attack...
i use him with a band and an adamant nature(and of course reckless) and almost nothing can wall him...the standart attack is brave bird which destroys everything not being electric,steel or rock...if i see zapdos in the opposing team i go straight up for double edge since it ohkos without rocks i think...
anything that isn't killed by his two stabs get killed by cc...
every defensive steel that may come in to wall him gets easily 2hkoed by band cc(like steelix and registeel)!
bandraptor can easily 2hko the entire uu metagame and i honestly cant find any counter to this beast...the only counter is prediction but this is hardly a solution...
for me he is maybe the biggest suspect in uu!
how do you guys counter this guy??

If only the rotom-A didnt lose their ghost typign they would be a good counter..but sadly staraptor is probably impossible to counter multiple times...Personally staraptor is mostly used on balance and offensive teams..so the trick is to just keep the momentum on your side before letting staraptor turn the tables on ya..thats my best hope, but it's one tricky bird to get around..A rhyperior w/ wish support can wither it down if you manage to keep stealth rock on the field lol just an idea not taken into practice yet

 

[alexwolf]

I slap agility onto him and use him as a sweeper, and to be honest, I don't think he's that overpowered. Sure he can sweep like a motherfucker, but he's frail and can be picked off by priority. In addition, with no way to boost its attack, it can't OHKO everything. Pokemon that can survive a hit can hit back hard with any attack. Staraptor kills itself really quickly too. SR + Recoil + LO Recoil adds up very quickly, and without a spinner or wish-passer, you're dead in a few turns anyway.

i was talking about adamant bandraptor!
it 2hkoes the entire uu with the right move...!to me it seems like it doesnt need a way to boost its attack at all...

and bandraptor works wonders if you put him as a lead since he doesnt suffer sr damage...

also you say that he dies pretty easily with all this recoil...this doesnt matter when you can kill whatever you want in 1 or 2 hits...and also 85/70 physical defense for a sweeper is not frail is mediocre.

you also say that it cannot ohko everyhting...well gues what he doesnt need to...everything that he can't ohko gets outspeeed and 2hkoed easily so its the same...also you say that he is countered by pokes that can take a hit and then launch back an attack...so they have to be able to survive one of raptor's attacks and then be fast enough to outspeed him and ko him...
can you pls make me a llist with some pokes that can do this?

 

[Gerard]

Agree

Barely nothing stands a chance against Choice Band Staraptor, nothing bar rotom (standar non-as-powerful cute rotom) ressists it's 3 moves (or lol Kitsunoh), and he has a way of reliable recovery, the only thing that is stopping him to OHKO the tier is no attack boosts (which make him need a CB but makes him loose recovery) and the SR weekness which limits it's time thanks to recoil (the Banded set is gonna kill itself eventualy, but it can easily take two pokes while at it), and the Sub-roost set is really powerful but looses Double Edge (which proves useful against electric pokes)

 

[Mr_br_kill]

First off I've been running Staraptor alot lately, and he is sitting on the fence if he's BL or not. Yes he's choice band set kos lots, but he dies very quickly to rocks plus recoil. I personly think the big bird will be sticking around another round because currently, so many, clyphilors (excuse my spelling on a iPod and to lazy to search that word up) and heaven forbid swift swimers all out speed and kill raptor. So do scarf pokemon. He also dies to or is very crippled by taking peroity. I'm 10x more scared of Chansey than Staraptor, for Staraptor can only kill 3 pokes at most, where Chansey can easily wall your whole team. Anyway, I'd say drought, Kyrum, Victini and the big b!cth none as Chansey are going to be the only suspects leaving for better or for worst this round anyways.

When is the actual voteing/banning of the suspects going to happen?

 

[jamashawalker]

These calcs are all Banded Staraptor vs 252 HP/252 Def...These are the most defensive pokes that can withstand both Brave Bird+Double Edge

Closecombat vs. Impish Rhyperior 42.2%- 49.8%

Closecombat vs. Impish Regirock 48.4% - 57.1%

Closecombat vs Impish Steelix 49.7%- 58.8%

Brave Bird vs. Bold Rotom 51%- 60.2%

There might be 1 or 2 pokes in UU im missin from this list but those are probably the most used...Also will you rarely see some of them with Max HP/Defense..With SR or a lil spikes these pokes get 2HKOed and without reliable recovery can they do it consistently..sadly I dont think there is anything that can really take a hit consisently :( as repeatedly stated, just gotta let it kill itself

 

[Whimsicott]

These calcs are all Banded Staraptor vs 252 HP/252 Def...These are the most defensive pokes that can withstand both Brave Bird+Double Edge

Closecombat vs. Impish Rhyperior 42.2%- 49.8%

Closecombat vs. Impish Regirock 48.4% - 57.1%

Closecombat vs Impish Steelix 49.7%- 58.8%

Brave Bird vs. Bold Rotom 51%- 60.2%

Rotom can cripple Staraptor with WoW and stall with Pain Split

 

[alexwolf]

Rotom can cripple Staraptor with WoW and stall with Pain Split

how exactly is he going to do this???assuming that rotom switches in he gets easily 2hkoed by brave bird so...

and from all of these pokes mentioned above,none actually runs max hp and def so the conclusion is that staraptor doesn't have any counters in uu.
this doesn't necessarily means that it is broken but it is definitely a strong indicator!

 

[Whimsicott]

how exactly is he going to do this???assuming that rotom switches in he gets easily 2hkoed by brave bird so...

and from all of these pokes mentioned above,none actually runs max hp and def so the conclusion is that staraptor doesn't have any counters in uu.
this doesn't necessarily means that it is broken but it is definitely a strong indicator!

Easy, you don't switch it into a Brave Bird? Staraptor is going to be taking something down with it. Also, you can assume without rocks up and with lefties recover, it's likely Rotom could survive one more hit.

 

[Machi]

Easy, you don't switch it into a Brave Bird? Staraptor is going to be taking something down with it. Also, you can assume without rocks up and with lefties recover, it's likely Rotom could survive one more hit.

That pretty much returns to why there are issues with Reckless Staraptor basically he will punch a hole in your team - easily taking down two pokes before it dies from recoil itself. There just aren't any safe switch ins - and thanks to team preview its easy to predict when a steel type will come in that you simply need to use close combat to dispatch that steel. In the end the basic idea for Staraptor is to well let it wreak its havoc until it eventually a) dies from recoil or b) you successfully revenge kill it/cripple (either way it has to be revenge since you don't want to switch in to its attacks).

 

[Whimsicott]

That pretty much returns to why there are issues with Reckless Staraptor basically he will punch a hole in your team - easily taking down two pokes before it dies from recoil itself. There just aren't any safe switch ins - and thanks to team preview its easy to predict when a steel type will come in that you simply need to use close combat to dispatch that steel. In the end the basic idea for Staraptor is to well let it wreak its havoc until it eventually a) dies from recoil or b) you successfully revenge kill it/cripple (either way it has to be revenge since you don't want to switch in to its attacks).

Well Rotom can easily minimize the damage. Alse choice'd rotom doesn't die from Brave Bird and can easily outspeed for the KO.

 

[Lady Shinki]

Well Rotom can easily minimize the damage. Alse choice'd rotom doesn't die from Brave Bird and can easily outspeed for the KO.

Adamant Reckless CB Brave Bird vs. 4/0 Scarf Rotom: (93.80% - 110.33%)

That's a guaranteed 1hko with any residual damage at all. (SR/hail/etc.)

 

[alexwolf]

Well Rotom can easily minimize the damage. Alse choice'd rotom doesn't die from Brave Bird and can easily outspeed for the KO.

i don't get what you mean when you say that he can easily minimize the damage.he cannot switch in with sr and without sr he dies in 2 hits 80% of the time...so no he doesn't counter....he only unreliably checks him...

also choise specs sets are outsped and easily 2hkoed while scarf sets take 93%-110% from an adamamt cb brave bird.(easy 1hko with sr,more than 50% chance of ohko without).so we still haven't found any counters to this beast...

 

[TM13IceBeam]

Well Rotom can easily minimize the damage. Alse choice'd rotom doesn't die from Brave Bird and can easily outspeed for the KO.

Staraptor is just too good, CB Adamant Brave Bird is just too strong, Rotom is pretty much on its last legs if it switches into THAT, Double Edge will just kill him.

So uh, switch into Close Combat? Staraptor will have to get lost for a while, so...

 

[Son_of_Shadoo]

Double Edge will just kill him.

... Since when do Normal Attacks hit Ghosts without Scrappy?

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

He clearly assumed an alternate forme Rotom, as original Rotom is generally inferior anyway. Despite the arguments against Rotom, if we allow it to be considered a (tenuous) counter that is still literally a single pokemon out of ~600 total. So now we all have to carry defensive Rotom to not get destroyed by Raptor?

 

[alexwolf]

He clearly assumed an alternate forme Rotom, as original Rotom is generally inferior anyway. Despite the arguments against Rotom, if we allow it to be considered a (tenuous) counter that is still literally a single pokemon out of ~600 total. So now we all have to carry defensive Rotom to not get destroyed by Raptor?

defensive rotom isnt even a counter...it is a check at best...
and unfortunately the only way to kill this thing is by letting it suicide or by revenging it(which isnt the best thing considering that he will already have killed one of your pokes)...

 

[Machi]

Well Rotom can easily minimize the damage. Alse choice'd rotom doesn't die from Brave Bird and can easily outspeed for the KO.

I don't think you understand entirely how Staraptor works... First off Brave Bird even with resist would still deal a lot of damage to normal Rotom if it switches in - unless you mean Air Rotom (he'd be the closest to resisting everything LOLZ). If it comes in to revenge then its pretty obvious what the next move is.

Secondly Staraptor is basically played in the same way as Latios its basically a hit and run - any good player knows the next one to enter is probably going to be a revenge. So just by switching in a Rotom, which more often than not is scarved, chances are they'll switch out Star. So really its hardly an ideal way of dealing with Staraptor.

Rotom isn't going to cut it at all - its stat distribution won't lend it well to a defensive set and by going defensive you'd lose the speed necessary to outspeed and revenge Staraptor - if it had somehow opted to stay.

 

[FlareBlitz]

I don't understand why people have trouble with Staraptor while things such as Eviolite Dusclops and defensive Cofagrigus with WOW completely and utterly shut it down.

Probably because said people have either used those Pokemon and found that they fail horribly against Staraptor or taken 5 seconds to do some basic calculations:

Staraptor CB Brave Bird versus 252/252+ Evolite Dusclops: 51.8% - 61.3%
Staraptor CB Brave Bird versus 252/252+ Cofagrigus: 63.8% - 75%

Staraptor is completely unwallable, and that is absolutely not an exaggeration. It ohkos or outruns and 2hkos 90% of the metagame with just Brave Bird, and the remaining Pokemon are destroyed by Close Combat or Double-Edge. It also has U-Turn to get rid of counters. And while we could more or less say the same things about CB Heracross (although not really because Fighting/Bug doesn't get nearly as good coverage), the difference is that Staraptor is also quite fast, meaning it's just as good against offensive teams, and will rarely be outsped by a non-scarf Pokemon that can survive its first hit. There's no doubt in my mind that Staraptor is broken, and the only reason I didn't nominate it was because it is one of the few things that keeps Chansey in check right now.

 

[Delta 2777]

Just pointing out: Metang, Bronzor, Rhydon, and Rhyperior can all avoid a 2HKO from Staraptor with a 252/252+ spread. Obviously they're not useful enough to use on your own team unless you have insane Staraptor issues, but "it doesn't 2HKO the whole tier".

Personally, I haven't played against Staraptor enough to make a decision on it. Which is why I'll be voting it UU. If it isn't broken though it is definitely still a top-tier threat.

Also people should remember that CB-Staraptor has a lot of the same issues other Choice-users have (although admittedly Staraptor has it easier due to the fantastic utility of Flying-STAB).

 

[Mr_br_kill]

cb haxours does the same in ou, and he isn't being considered being banned

 

[Stellar]

Bluewind gave basic calculations but I thought I would expand a bit.

I don't understand why people have trouble with Staraptor while things such as Eviolite Dusclops and defensive Cofagrigus with WOW completely and utterly shut it down.

Jolly Choice Band Reckless Staraptor using Brave Bird against 252 HP/252 Def Bold Cofagrigus:
508 Atk vs 427 Def & 320 HP (144 Base Power): 184 - 217 (57.50% - 67.81%)
So after Stealth Rock and Leftovers Cofagrigus would have 25.94% - 36% HP remaining.
508 Atk vs 427 Def & 320 HP (120 Base Power): 153 - 181 (47.81% - 56.56%)
After the next Brave Bird (without Reckless due to Mummy) it would have 0 HP.

Jolly Choice Band Reckless Staraptor using Brave Bird against 252 HP/252 Def Bold Eviolite Dusclops:
508 Atk vs 591 Def & 284 HP (144 Base Power): 133 - 157 (46.83% - 55.28%)
So after Stealth Rock Dusclops would have 44.27% - 53.17%.
After the next Brave Bird it would have 0 HP.

Yup, completely shut down. lol

 

[FlareBlitz]

Just pointing out: Metang, Bronzor, Rhydon, and Rhyperior can all avoid a 2HKO from Staraptor with a 252/252+ spread. Obviously they're not useful enough to use on your own team unless you have insane Staraptor issues, but "it doesn't 2HKO the whole tier".

Personally, I haven't played against Staraptor enough to make a decision on it. Which is why I'll be voting it UU. If it isn't broken though it is definitely still a top-tier threat.

Also people should remember that CB-Staraptor has a lot of the same issues other Choice-users have (although admittedly Staraptor has it easier due to the fantastic utility of Flying-STAB).

Rhyperior has a pretty decent chance of being 2hko'd, actually, and Rhydon always is, at least if I'm doing my calcs right. Not to mention running a max/max+ spread on either is inefficient (rhyperior likes enough speed to outrun base 50s and some atk as well). Metang and bronzor are almost useless, lacking offensive presence and significant support options, and using them for the sole purpose of countering staraptor is, as you point out, ridiculous.

I didn't nominate staraptor either for the same reasons you mentioned you were voting it UU...but I am not seeing any scenario in which it emerges as less than completely broken.

cb haxours does the same in ou, and he isn't being considered being banned

No it doesn't. Skarmory and Ferrothorn not 2hko'd by Outrage or Earthquake, and they are the two most popular walls in the tier. Haxorus is also slow for OU, whereas Staraptor is quite fast for UU.

Regardless, whatever is going on in OU has no impact on UU. Keep your arguments relevant to this tier.

 

[Mishra]

cb haxours does the same in ou, and he isn't being considered being banned

1. That's OU, completely incomparable to UU but for starters:

2. Haxourous's 97 base speed is not that good for OU. Considering some of the more common sweepers have base speeds over 100 (including but not limited to Garchomp, the genies, ect). Most that don't run DD, will run scarf before they run Band.

3. There are far better dragons in OU than Haxorous, while is UU, staraptor is by far, one of the best physical sweeper for reasons already stated.

4. There are far better walls in OU. Skarmory and Ferrathorn are both really good physical (special too in Ferrathorn's case) for this guy. So he isn't that hard to deal with.

@Delta: So on your list, you admit that 3 of the pokes don't have a real good use (and running 252/252 rhyperior is running an inferior set as well, I think his best set is the Rock polish sweeper set.), and you don't think he's broken?

And as far as being choiced, the beauty of team preview is that you can lock yourself in a good move.

 

[114]

People who want to vote ban Staraptor are being silly. While Staraptor is really strong with reckless, people need to consider some things:

1. Staraptor loses HP with brave bird, and does not have high HP base stat
2. CB Staraptor is not incredibly fast
3. Staraptor is SR weak
4. Staraptor has weak defenses; priority will really hurt it
5. Normal typing makes it susceptible to mach punch

Compared to the other UU suspects, most notably vulpix, Staraptor is thus no where near OP. He should be considered (if considered at all) a suspect only in the future.

Secondly, Victini (in the absence of sun) is not OP either. V-Create is not as strong as Flare Blitz Darmanitan and is incredibly weak in the UU metagame that is dominated by bulky waters (slowbro, milotic, alomomola, suicune).

(coming from someone who is top ranked in PO's DW UU)

 

[bombiron]

i dont mean to offend you. but this isnt a PO forum, its a smogon forum. a lot of PO is trash from personal experience