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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Sandstorm (Excadrill/Thundurus Banned)

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The current problem I see with a lot of the arguments about thundurus is that there isnt one set that has no counters because thundurus is only capable of running four moves.
If we take a look at the common moves that thundurus runs which as far as I know are:
Thunderbolt/Thunder
Hp Ice
Focus Blast/Hammer Arm
Grass Knot
Nasty Plot
Taunt
Thunder Wave

Now lets assume that every thundurus will be running either thunderbolt or thunder as their primary attacking move. Most Thundurus will be running Hidden Power Ice ofr the great coverage that boltbeam gives. For the final two moves his sets often diverge If he picks nasty plot he can only pick one more attacking move most likely Focus Blast/Hammer Arm or Grass knot. If he runs the fighting type move he will be countered effectively by quagsire, but if he decides to run grass knot instead to counter quagsire he can be defeated by pokemon like ferrothorn. Lots of people complain that the priority thunder wave from thundurus allows him to cripple the offensive scarfers that threaten him but If he decides to run twave over one of his attacking moves his coverage is further limited and if he decides to replace nasty plot with twave his attacking power is reduced making him more vulnerable to his defensive counters.

What would convince me that thundurus is worthy of a ban is one set that has no counters not a combination of all of his sets. If someone could post this "uncounterable" set and explain how it cannot be countered then I would completely support a ban of thundurus.
 
Actually most Thunderus run Focus Blast before they run HP Ice.

Nasty Plot sets generally go Thunder , Focus Blast , Nasty Plot , Taunt/Thunder Wave
 
yee said:
While I would rather not discuss if Thundurus is broken or not, I have to say everyone calling Quagsire the best and only counter is a load of BS. If you want to think of something that weird, run a Latias with spA/spD evs and Draco Meteor. Not to mention its fellow Water/Grounds, Gastrodon and Swampert, both counter as many sets as it does (all that lac

k Grass Knot). Once you pair one of them with a bulky Roserade, Jirachi etc. you have those covered too. A user of Extremespeed or Ice Shard in particular really give it a hard time, as does the average scarfer (there are faster pokemon who don't even have to worry about T-Wave, like Starmie to an extent, Jolteon, Excadrill etc.)

If I had to use only one certain poke to counter Thundurus, I wouldn't be using Quagsire. Lanturn would be the best catch-all counter, or I could even cover it with a Seaking (lol).
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How so? Quagsire is the only viable Pokemon with Unaware, it doesn't have to deal with boosted coverage moves unlike your aforementioned counters. Can you give me a specific spread for Latias? Because no matter what I do, it loses to +2 Thundurus. +2 Thundurus deals (63.7% - 75.3%) with HP Ice vs 252HP/252SpD Latias and it fails to OHKO back with Draco Meteor. Its definitely not a counter. The spread you listed is inefficient and it falls to +2 HP Ice after SR damage.

Thundurus obliterates Swampert with +2 Focus Blast (85.1% - 100.2%) while Swampert retaliates with a pathetic 48.2% - 56.9% with Ice Beam. How can you state that Swampert is on par Quagsire (who also boasts a reliable recovery move and Unaware?!?) when it comes to countering Thundurus?!? Again same deal with Lanturn, it takes far too much damage from +2 Focus Blast to be considered a catch all counter. (76.3% - 89.8% from Focus Blast) so it needs a little passive damage and it can no longer counter Thundurus)While Gastrodon is significantly better at checking Thundurus it still falls short of beating Thundurus, as it gets 2HKOed +2 Focus Blast. Both Lanturn and Gastrodon are strong checks though, i'll admit that.

Quagsire on the hand, IS a catch all counter to Thundurus. At worst its taking (39.6% - 46.7%) from LO Focus Blast and it can beat Thundurus with a combination of Scald/Waterfall and Recover. We've already eliminated Grass Knot, so Quagsire doesn't have to worry anything Thundurus throws at it. (since its now hard countered by Blissey / Chansey and checked by a ton of other Pokemon if runs GK) If Thundurus is going on a Nasty Plot rampage, Quagsire is the only defensive Pokemon that can stop it 93.75% of the time.
 
Spork said:
Actually most Thunderus run Focus Blast before they run HP Ice.

Nasty Plot sets generally go Thunder , Focus Blast , Nasty Plot , Taunt/Thunder Wave
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With a set like that thundurus is completely walled by quagsire, gliscor and celebi. He also cant do anything other than twave either of latis and probably get killed in the process.
 
Mamoswineflu said:
What would convince me that thundurus is worthy of a ban is one set that has no counters not a combination of all of his sets. If someone could post this "uncounterable" set and explain how it cannot be countered then I would completely support a ban of thundurus.
Click to expand...

Gen 4 Salamence Syndrome.
The problem isn't that there is one set which is unbeatable, the problem is that, by the time you figure out what set it's running, you've probably lost a Pokemon.
 
I think that sableye is a good counter to thundaros. And drizzle toed is no whare neer broken. If I haveto complain about anything it would be chancy lol I know its funny. (:(
 
if Thundurus carries taunt then it lacks some important coverage move and will be hard countered by something like TTar\Bliss (if it lacks focus blast) or Lati@s\Gliscor (without hp ice).
 
SHAYMIN-S IN OU.

"Oh no, what the fuck is swift saying now?"

Yes, skymin in OU. This will be a writeup similar to the one mien wrote for lugia. So just hear me out, kay?

No really, put down the pitchforks and hear me out!


So Swift, why skymin?

Well, to put it simply, I believe that skymin is OU. I've thought so ever since the first suspect round of gen V.

Do you remember round 1? We had deoxys-A, darkrai, skymin, manaphy ect. in OU at the time. It was hectic. Everything felt unbalanced and broken, right? When voting time came the broken pokes were thrown out of OU. Do you remember the percentage of votes for uber skymin recieved?

100%

100% Everyone. Every single voter chose to get rid of skymin. You might argue that it was broken, so the % was deserved, but do you seriously think that it was worse that deoxys or darkrai? Darkrai caused so much stir that a policy review thread was created to discuss banning sleep moves!

100% says bias to me. In a metagame where everything felt new and broken, skymin stood out as the most annoying. This is why everyone wanted to ban it. You can argue that there was a lot of deliberation, and the voters made an educated decision (no offense to the voters) but skymin wasn't worse than the other three. Not nearly enough to garner a unanimous vote. A lot of people argued that shaymin was manageable enough to stay in OU, and there was a decent case to be made, but I'm of the belief that it got caught up and thrown out with the rest.

Okay, so you think it's OU. Now you have to convince us.

Yes, the hard part. mien tried this and was ridiculed. That won't work. Draw parallels? Nope. Examples?

I've decided to go with Damage Calculations and Examples. (yay!)

So. The most common skymin set was the subseeder:

[SET]
name: Subseeder
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Leech Seed
move 3: Seed Flare
move 4: Air Slash
item: Leftovers
nature: Timid
evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

388 speed ties with neutral base 80s (259) with a scarf. It's beaten by base 130s and max speed base 70 scarfers (393) It's not especially powerful, but can be hard to work around for the average poke. Grass types are immune to it's leech seed and resist seed flare, but have to watch out for air slash. It's STAB moves give it great neutral coverage, but it can be walled by many pokes if it doesn't run a coverage move.

I've picked out a few prime candidates to take it on: Skarmory, Rotom-H, Bronzong, Heatran and Cresselia (of course!) I'm going to make this as comprehensive as possible, going through everything in OU, and brainstorming some UU stuff as well.

Oh, and I'm going to leave the numbers as is for accuracy's sake. I can't guess the percentages accurately.

First up is skarm. (*squawk!*) I'll be using the above skymin set for all calcs, and skarm will use both the standard set and the specially defensive one in the analysis (people use this, right?)

Seed flare on physical skarm: 62 - 73 out of 334

Seed flare on -2 physical skarm: 124 - 146 (not even a 2HKO)

Air slash on physical skarm: 78 - 92 (5HKO with leftovers)

Air slash on -2 physical skarm: 155 - 183 (barely a 2HKO with leftovers)

HP fire on physical skarm: 194 - 230 (a 2HKO)

Specially defensive skarm:

Seed flare: 42 - 50 (ROFL)

Seed flare, -2: 85 - 100

Air slash: 54 - 63

Air slash, -2: 106 - 126 (4HKO)

HP fire: 134 - 158 (still not a 1HKO)


Skarmory's minimum attack brave bird on skymin: 270 - 320 (KO with rocks)

Brave bird with 48 attack EVs: 288 - 342 (minimum attack EVs needed to OHKO. 208 EVs guarantee a OHKO.)

Rotom-H

The cool thing about this cute little oven is that it resists ALL of the moves that skymin commonly runs (grass, flying, ground, fire and ice) and it's dual STAB moves can deal with skymin easily. There was no bulky set in the analysis, but I'll opt for a 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpDef lefties set.

Seed flare: 63 - 75

Seed flare, -2: 127 - 150

Air slash: 40 - 48

Air slash, -2: 80 - 94


Rotom's overheat on skymin: 402 - 474 (OHKO)

Thunderbolt: 135 - 160 (not a 2HKO, but will break subs.)

This all looks good, so I'll calc a min/min rotom (241 HP) now:

Seed flare: 87 - 103

Seed flare, -2: 174 - 206 (Two seed flares will KO with a drop.)

Air slash: 54 - 65

Air slash, -2: 109 - 129

Max special attack rotom:

Overheat: OHKO

Thunderbolt: 186 - 220 (guaranteed 2HKO)


Bronzong

Standard wall set from the analysis (338 HP).

Seed flare: 68 - 81

Seed flare, -2: 136 - 161

HP fire: 108 - 128

HP fire, -2: 214 - 252


Gyro Ball (150 base power) on skymin: 204 - 240 (OHKO with rocks)


Heatran

I'll use both a min/min and max/max set (offensive and specially defensive.)

Seed flare on min/min (323 HP) heatran: 44 - 52

Seed flare, -2: 88 - 103

Air slash: 55 - 66

Air slash, -2: 110 - 130

Earth power: OHKO

Seed flare on max/max (386 HP) heatran: 31 - 37

Seed flare, -2: 63 - 75

Air slash: 40 - 48

Air slash, -2: 80 - 94

Earth power: 256 - 304 (2HKO with rocks!)


Min special attack flamethrower on (341 HP) skymin: 324 - 384

Max: OHKO (even with timid)


Cresselia

120 / 130 special defense stats. Max/max set will be used. Max HP is 444.

Seed flare: 111 - 132

Seed flare, -2: 222 - 262

Air slash: 70 - 84

Air slash, -2: 139 - 165


Ice beam on skymin: OHKO


Ferrothorn

252 / 248 set will be used. Max HP is 352.

Seed flare: 30 - 36

Seed flare, -2: 60 - 71

Air slash: 76 - 90

Air slash, -2: 151 - 178

HP fire: 188 - 224


Gyro ball on skymin: 193 - 228 (2HKO, will break subs.)


Chansey

Max HP/min spdef eviolite set. Max HP is 704.

Seed flare: 118 - 141

Seed flare, -2: 267 - 315

Air slash: 75 - 88

Air slash, -2: 168 - 198


Ice beam on skymin: 156 - 188 (may 2HKO)


Tyranitar

Max HP min special defense set will be used. Adamant and leftovers. Max HP is 404.

Seed flare: 248 - 294

Seed flare, -2: OHKO

Air slash: 39 -46

Air slash, -2: 87 - 103


Stone edge on skymin: OHKO

Crunch: 186 - 220 (2HKO)


Latios

Standard offensive set. Leftovers will be used. HP is 301.

Seed flare: 85 - 101

Seed flare, -2: 170 - 201

Air slash: 108 - 127

Air slash, -2: 213 - 252


Dragon pulse on skymin: 186 - 220 (guaranteed 2HKO)


Excadrill

Adamant life orb. HP is 361.

Seed flare: 262 - 310

Seed flare, -2: OHKO

Air slash: 82 - 97

Air slash, -2: 165 - 194

HP fire: 206 - 244


Rock slide on skymin: 304 - 358 (KO with rocks)



Reuniclus

Life orb max HP/max Def calm minder. HP is 424.

Seed flare: 211 - 250

Seed flare, -2: OHKO

Air slash: 133 - 157 (3HKO)

Air slash, -2: 265 - 313


Psychic on skymin: 195 - 229 (2HKO)


Now the same calcs with one calm mind:

Seed flare, +1: 142 - 168

Seed flare, -1: 316 - 373

Air slash, +1: 88 - 105

Air slash, -1: 198 - 234


Psychic on skymin: 289 - 342 (Chance to OHKO, guaranteed with rocks.)


Thundurus

Support set with max special attack and speed, leftovers, tbolt, hp ice and thunder wave. HP is 299.

Seed flare: 111 - 132

Seed flare, -2: 222 - 262

Air slash: 69 - 82

Air slash, -2: 139 - 164


Hp ice on skymin: OHKO


Conkeldurr

120 HP / 252 Atk / 136 SpD bulk upper from the analysis. HP is 381.

Seed flare: 219 - 258

Seed flare, -2: OHKO

Air slash: 272 - 324

Air slash, -2: OHKO


Stone edge on skymin: 318 - 376 (KO with rocks.)


Deoxys-S

Max special attack, max speed, lefties. HP is 241.

Seed flare: 204 - 240 (99%)

Seed flare, -2: OHKO

Air slash: 127 - 150

Air slash, -2: OHKO


Ice beam on skymin: OHKO


Politoed

Specs, scarf and defensive sets from the analysis.

Specs (321 HP)

Seed flare: OHKO

Seed flare, -2: OHKO

Air slash: 117 - 138

Air slash, -2: 231 - 273

Ice beam on skymin: OHKO


Scarf (321 HP)

Seed flare: OHKO

Seed flare, -2: OHKO

Air slash: 117 - 138

Air slash, -2: 231 - 273

Ice beam on skymin: OHKO


Defensive (384 HP)

Seed flare: 372 - 438

Seed flare, -2: OHKO

Air slash: 117 - 138

Air slash, -2: 231 - 273

Ice beam on skymin: 316 - 376


Ninetales

Specially defensive is the first set in the analysis, so I'll use it. 252 HP / 92 SpD / 164 Spe timid. HP is 350.

Seed flare: 84 - 99

Seed flare, -2: 169 - 199

Air slash: 106 - 126 (4HKO)

Air slash, -2: 211 - 250

Flamethrower on skymin: 324 - 384 (KO with rocks)


Virizion

252 special attack and speed, timid and leftovers. HP is 324.

Seed flare: 75 - 88

Seed flare, -2: 148 - 175

Air slash: OHKO

Air slash on 252 HP / 252 Spdef calm virizion (386 HP) 280 - 336

HP ice on skymin: 304 - 360


Volcarona

252 HP 0 spdef. Bulky quiver dancer.

Seed flare: 44 - 52

Seed flare, -2: 88 - 104

Air slash: 222 - 264

Air slash, -2: OHKO

Air slash, +1: 150 - 176


Fiery Dance on skymin: 284 - 336

Fiery dance, +1: OHKO

-------------------------------------------------------


So there, a wall of calcs. This has taken me all night, so I'll continue tomorrow.
​
 
Garchomp was just banned because SubSD annoyed people, to put it simply. Hardly anyone will want Skymin back in the metagame with its Air Slash and to top it all off, your calcs really didn't show anything other than the fact that while Skymin has a few checks, it can get around them with SpD drops and Air Slash flinches.

You did not even consider the idea that Skymin can run LO sets with Seed Flare / Air Slash / HP Fire / Earth Power, Specs sets that break through even Blissey with nothing other than STAB spam, or the fact that despite what seem to be 100 / 75 / 75 average defenses at best, it has the resistances to help back them up.

No.
 
JT that subseeder isn't even the ideal spread and it would be broken as skymin too easily beats its "counters/checks".

this is what the subseeder would inevitably become:

Shaymin-S @ Leftovers
Trait: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 88 SAtk / 168 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Substitute
- Leech Seed
- Air Slash
- Seed Flare/Synthesis


101 subs, enough speed to beat scarftar, Synthesis is for sun teams to get 66.667% of max hp back in one go, seed flare otherwise, air slash to flinch its victims to death.


LO and scarfmin aren't being posted as we all know what they would look like.
 
I'll just put my two cents here.

I don't think that something is really broken right now. Everything seems more or less balanced. But I find that it has something fishy about this metagame.

Firstly, about 50% are weather team. I don't say that weather is always the same team (if it was, they'll be countered or banned rapidly). But, if you have a weatherless team, you are obliged to overpower the benefit of the weather. Why doesn't run a weather team then ? And it's this that I absolutely don't like. You're forced to run 3 (5 but frankly, the 2 others kinda suck) pokemon. What a centralisation ! So weather team can be varied but count on 3 pokemon, it's extreme.

Then, (and it's not about weather) I have a problem with match-ups. It's maybe me... Your team cannot deal with everything. Before, you could turn around your team's counter and still win. Here, you have lost battles. You have hard counter of your team. And i think it's why people complain about Thundurus and Excadrill. They're opposite ways to "counter" them. Where Thundurus need a scarfer to have a good chance to counter it, Excadrill need a very bulky poke or using Azumarill's Aqua Jet. Here I only talk about two poke, imagine what you need to deal with the rest.

Finally, it's not really a problem with me, but you seem to dislike complex bans. So, here's the question. Why do you keep Drizzle this round ? This means that you keep the Aldaron proposal this round. Choose it... Either you ban it, either you keep it entirely (or you accept the complex bans). I have nothing against complex bans (above all between abilities).

EDIT : About skymin, I think if Garchomp was banned because of 20% hax, Skymin is far worse. And even if the choice of the voters can be debatable, 100% of bans is cleary obvious that nobody wants Skymin OU.
 
That was kind of harsh Pk Gaming, but I am inclined to agree with you.

Unfortunately Swift, while Skymin may not 2HKO or OHKO much with air slash, the 60% flinch chance is the real thing that breaks it. Most pokes that may be able to take 1, won't be able to take 3 or 4.
 
Downf4ll said:
Unfortunately Swift, while Skymin may not 2HKO or OHKO much with air slash, the 60% flinch chance is the real thing that breaks it. Most pokes that may be able to take 1, won't be able to take 3 or 4.
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Especially after a -2 Special Fall from Seed Flare, which happens 68% of the time.

Yea, unanimous ban sounds about right.
 
JT Swift, what you've just said... Is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point, in your rambling, incoherent response, were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this thread is now dumber for having read that.
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I don't see what's so wrong in his post that warrants such an insult, compared to the poor arguments i've seen from some others in this topic. At least he did a significant effort to put some thought behind his statement.

Needless to say Shaymin-S is a special case, as you can't really measure its power through damage calculations alone. The amount of damage it deals is largely depended on how many flinches it lands or SpD drops it causes. In essence one is often dependant on a coin flip when attempting to defeat it. This huge reliance on luck and the way it can abuse it so many times better than Jirachi made the frustration high enough for a 100% vote ban and will also be the reason why it will never get unbanned again.
 
Therte is no way that Skymin will ever be allowed back in OU. I really don't know if SubSeed was the most popular set, but I personally used a Life Orb set with Seed Flare/Earth Power/Air Slash/Hidden Power Ice, and it was just amazingly broken, often KOing more things per match then the rest of my team. Choice Scarf just revenged things like a pro, and Choice Specs just blows shit up. Youre post for saying ti should be allowed back in is just an incoherent pile of shit that manages to say nothing while wasting everybodys time. You clearly have no fucking idea of what your saying, and should just stop posting completely.
 
Okay so after reading through Snunch's posts about Excadrill I've came to the conclusion that Thundurus isn't broken due to how fucking awesome it is. Thundurus is broken because of Excadrill's presence in the metagame. The re-writing the speed tiers, and on top of that, being fairly bulky, having two status immunities, and an Attack stat that rivals is nothing but what most people would call sky high. It feels weird to call one pokemon broken simply because of another pokemon's presence, but I feel that, right now, that's the case.

Choice Scarf users are basically dead right now. No one wants to run them, no one really does run them. Outside of the odd Scarf Starmie I run into the next two common scarfers I see are (#1) Politoed, and (#2) Tekk. Without Choice Scarf users many pokemon with gigantic Speed stats, like Thundurus, are now roaming around kicking over everyone in the metagame. I'd like to think that if Excadrill was banned then the speed tiers would come back into existence and then Thundurus may find itself more balanced. But my fairy tale lala land doesn't always have these kind of things happen.

That being said I feel that banning both Thundurus and Excadrill would be a massive mistake this round. Not only am I still not completely sold on Thundurus (I've never had problems with it, eh), but I'm becoming more sold on Excadrill. The re-writing of the speed tiers is a very valid reason for banning when you want to talk out over-centralization.

Either way this round is far from over, I'm going to keep playing around with Thundurus and get a more solid feel about it.

In lighter news Mamoswine is kicking the teeth in of almost everything right now. It's the perfect anti-metagame pokemon currently.
 
Berserker Lord said:
Therte is no way that Skymin will ever be allowed back in OU. I really don't know if SubSeed was the most popular set, but I personally used a Life Orb set with Seed Flare/Earth Power/Air Slash/Hidden Power Ice, and it was just amazingly broken, often KOing more things per match then the rest of my team. Choice Scarf just revenged things like a pro, and Choice Specs just blows shit up. Youre post for saying ti should be allowed back in is just an incoherent pile of shit that manages to say nothing while wasting everybodys time. You clearly have no fucking idea of what your saying, and should just stop posting completely.
Click to expand...

@JTSwift The majority of posts in response to your post seem a bit harsh but unfortunately I kinda agree with them. You showed that it's really hard to take down and it's checks/counters are skrewed if they haxed (which never happens when using Shaymin-S). As mentioned earlier, the 100% vote was an appropriate response to Skymin. Running Skymin required little skill since Serene Grace did most of the work anyway and it hits too hard and too fast for the current meta.

@People who want to drop pokemon from Uber to OU, I think the only pokemon in Ubers that could possibly be brought down to OU by vote is Blaziken and even then it would be an uphill battle to get it nominated.

Edit: As a last bit on the Skymin subject, remember that your opponent can rarely attack you with 60-ish% flinch chance and troll speed.
 
While I understand the point of Swim, I will say: No

Shaymin-S can outstall Rotom-H, Cresselia, Heatran and Bronzong with Leech Seed and Substitute alone, Skarm is the only one who can beat it because of Roost

Ferrothorn will be haxed to death and the same goes for Chansey or Blissey who not only are large hp suppliers for Shaymin but also will fall to Seed Flare spD drops and Air Slash hax

I would rather test Lugia in OU (not that I want it in OU anyway) before Shaymin-S, that thing is way too annoying and can hax his way to victory, and remember that Drought Ninetales exist, give it sun support and Growth will boost Shaymin' spA by 2 levels, is like Garchomp' special version, only faster and even more broken
 
People don't use Choice Scarf because nobody wants to be locked onto a weak move, when double dance Terrakion, Volcarona etc is everywhere. Politoed is used because Hydro Pump is 270 BP in rain and 2/3HKOes basically everything apart from Water immune pokemon, and Terrakion because it has a good speed stat and awesome STAB moves.

And yeah Mamoswine is pretty cool and should definitely get more usage. Bronzong is seeing little use so Ice/Ground coverage wrecks teams.
 
Shaymin-S is never ever EVER coming back to OU. When something is voted unanimously out of a metagame where there were more "broken" suspects, it's not coming back. Period. End of story. Lugia isn't coming down either when it is the single best mixed wall in the Uber tier.
 
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