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Are we allowed to discuss religion yet?
- Thread starter Alan
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No it doesn't, but it does not totally output the belief in God either. One has to make the personal decision the we are either amazingly lucky, or something else is at play. Considering the odds for our planet's conditions, I don't consider either to be superior, the odds don’t support either side.
the anthropic principle is the biggest load of bullshit ever: it's the ultimate example of confirmation bias. we only exist to observe that the universe's laws are fine-tuned for our existence because otherwise we wouldn't be here to observe them...
you're not alone in thinking like this, but just because you're incapable of perceiving the improbability of something happening randomly doesn't magically mean it's impossible.
it *can* happen all by chance, but again because human brains have great difficulty in understanding probability and seek patterns instinctively people find it far easier to believe that something like a god or what-have-you created the universe
I used to be a Christian growing up-- I went to Church most Sundays, read the Bible, loved Jesus, prayed before I went to sleep... and then, sometime around fourth grade, I realized how ridiculous it all was.
I mean, come on, an all-powerful being exists who loves everyone who follows him, yet all this disaster happens in the world? Jesus died for our sins... but if God is such a loving, forgiving entity, and an omniscient and omnipotent one at that, couldn't he... you know... just forgive us without having to kill his son? What was with all of these wars in God's name-- it's ok to murder for him, but not ok to be a nonbeliever but otherwise good person? Why would a truly benevolent entity care whether or not you believed in him when you otherwise did good deeds all the time? Why do we believe a book that was written thousands of years ago by men who had little to no knowledge of science whatsoever over things that have been recently tested and subject to scientific scrutiny and accepted by the scientific community at large? Doesn't it say something that religiousness is highly inversely correlated with education, particularly in he sciences? Why can't even Christians who have worshiped God their whole lives and studied the Bible throughout their existence agree on what His nature really is? Heck, how do we even know this invisible, all-powerful creator is a he?!?!?!
Christianity just didn't make any logical sense to me, and the thought "I don't believe in God" entered my mind frequently. However, I was in 4th grade and scared, so I was kind of more agnostic at this point, and funnily enough, I'd actually pray to God to ask for His forgiveness for not believing in Him! And I was horrified that my parents might find out... they were religious, and I was sure they'd be mad, so I kept quiet for awhile.
Fast forward to ninth grade. My nonbelief in the Christian god had been pretty well cemented at that point, because there were just too many faults in the logic behind Christianity for me to think it was true at all. But my parents wanted me to attend Confirmation classes so I could officially become part of the Church. This was the last straw for me, because I had endured sitting through illogical crap every Sunday, so for the first time, I spoke up about my lack of belief. They were furious and made me attend anyway, but it's not like it did them any good-- no one there could make a sufficient case for their god's existence (and the burden of proof is on the people who make ridiculous, improbable claims), so I never went back to Christianity. I do, however, still celebrate the major Christian holidays like Christmas and Easter because it is a large part of my culture (and ironically, the rituals going with these holidays are more based on pagan rituals than Christianity itself).
As for whether there is any sort of God out there, I don't think anyone can be 100% certain, but I think it is highly improbable to the point that it is not really worth giving any merit to the idea. I mean, given the strict set of moral codes and the specific descriptions behind the gods of any religion in existence and how different religions contradict each other, the probability that there is a god that fits any of those descriptions perfectly is akin to the probability of there being an invisible teapot orbiting the sun, and if I believed in such a teapot, it would be ludicrous for me to ask others to do the same without any evidence to back myself up. And since any of those probabilities are so insignificant as to be negligible, I feel safe in calling myself an atheist, because while I could be wrong.... there's not really much chance of that at all.
Also, I agree with eggbert's posts 100%. Cookie's, as well. Also, Alan... Jesus drank wine, and he was supposedly the perfect human being, so the belief that we should not drink wine does not compute. One of his "miracles" was supposedly turning water into wine, so I hardly think God would disapprove if he actually existed!!
I mean, come on, an all-powerful being exists who loves everyone who follows him, yet all this disaster happens in the world? Jesus died for our sins... but if God is such a loving, forgiving entity, and an omniscient and omnipotent one at that, couldn't he... you know... just forgive us without having to kill his son? What was with all of these wars in God's name-- it's ok to murder for him, but not ok to be a nonbeliever but otherwise good person? Why would a truly benevolent entity care whether or not you believed in him when you otherwise did good deeds all the time? Why do we believe a book that was written thousands of years ago by men who had little to no knowledge of science whatsoever over things that have been recently tested and subject to scientific scrutiny and accepted by the scientific community at large? Doesn't it say something that religiousness is highly inversely correlated with education, particularly in he sciences? Why can't even Christians who have worshiped God their whole lives and studied the Bible throughout their existence agree on what His nature really is? Heck, how do we even know this invisible, all-powerful creator is a he?!?!?!
Christianity just didn't make any logical sense to me, and the thought "I don't believe in God" entered my mind frequently. However, I was in 4th grade and scared, so I was kind of more agnostic at this point, and funnily enough, I'd actually pray to God to ask for His forgiveness for not believing in Him! And I was horrified that my parents might find out... they were religious, and I was sure they'd be mad, so I kept quiet for awhile.
Fast forward to ninth grade. My nonbelief in the Christian god had been pretty well cemented at that point, because there were just too many faults in the logic behind Christianity for me to think it was true at all. But my parents wanted me to attend Confirmation classes so I could officially become part of the Church. This was the last straw for me, because I had endured sitting through illogical crap every Sunday, so for the first time, I spoke up about my lack of belief. They were furious and made me attend anyway, but it's not like it did them any good-- no one there could make a sufficient case for their god's existence (and the burden of proof is on the people who make ridiculous, improbable claims), so I never went back to Christianity. I do, however, still celebrate the major Christian holidays like Christmas and Easter because it is a large part of my culture (and ironically, the rituals going with these holidays are more based on pagan rituals than Christianity itself).
As for whether there is any sort of God out there, I don't think anyone can be 100% certain, but I think it is highly improbable to the point that it is not really worth giving any merit to the idea. I mean, given the strict set of moral codes and the specific descriptions behind the gods of any religion in existence and how different religions contradict each other, the probability that there is a god that fits any of those descriptions perfectly is akin to the probability of there being an invisible teapot orbiting the sun, and if I believed in such a teapot, it would be ludicrous for me to ask others to do the same without any evidence to back myself up. And since any of those probabilities are so insignificant as to be negligible, I feel safe in calling myself an atheist, because while I could be wrong.... there's not really much chance of that at all.
Also, I agree with eggbert's posts 100%. Cookie's, as well. Also, Alan... Jesus drank wine, and he was supposedly the perfect human being, so the belief that we should not drink wine does not compute. One of his "miracles" was supposedly turning water into wine, so I hardly think God would disapprove if he actually existed!!
I am not sure what to call myself. I do not believe in a God, and I don't think there is one, but I'm not opposed to the idea that I am wrong and there is one out there
I believe that if there is a God, however, it isn't a God of a set religion like Christianity or Islam or whatever. I think if there is a god it is an entity that will take anybody, bad or good I guess
I believe that if there is a God, however, it isn't a God of a set religion like Christianity or Islam or whatever. I think if there is a god it is an entity that will take anybody, bad or good I guess
yes? that is the meaning i intended, what are you getting at...
no, it's really not - the anthropic principle might be a lazy brushoff but it's not confirmation bias. we can't observe a universe that can't support our life; the only possible universe we can see is one we can live in. it's not the same and i really don't see how it has anything to do with confirmation bias
lol, yes, i really don't understand why this is so difficult to grasp. firstly, human life itself is miraculous; for it to exist, something miraculous had to have happened prior. there's no possible way we could look into the past and not see something incredible. secondly, 13 billion years is a long fucking time - more than enough for a miracle to happen naturally. if a god created life, there's that question of what the hell took so long.
Its actually much shorter. The first few billion years composed of just hydrogen gas coming together. The next few billion years just comprised of super massive stars forming and quickly dieing out. So it wasn't until about 8-6 billion years ago, that normal stars started forming, ones which could have life on them. We are actually living in the first generation of stars which can harbor life. So if life was the randomly occur at any time, or be made by some other force, it would have to be now.
life as we know it. there's a big difference there. i very much doubt that every possible form of life needs to be on a solid planet with liquid water orbiting a star and the rest
Then we are just going on to speculation then, we know life is possible in our system, any step further currently is fiction.
And even if life formed in some other system, lets say silicon, it would still require a solid planet in which to live on, and a decent size star, which again has only existed in the past 8-6 billion years. I don't see how life could exist inside a cloud of hydrogen gas or a super massive star.
And even if life formed in some other system, lets say silicon, it would still require a solid planet in which to live on, and a decent size star, which again has only existed in the past 8-6 billion years. I don't see how life could exist inside a cloud of hydrogen gas or a super massive star.
I'm an atheist. And personally I think everyone that is agnostic is probably some sort of spineless coward trying to bet on both sides. Or someone who thinks human's existence in the world is WAY TOO FUCKING AWESOME to just happen by chance. Anthropocentrism, har har
There's not much to deal with here. No one has proven God's existence in a factual manner, he doesn't exist. And don't come to me with the "GOD CAN'T BE PROVEN 'CUZ HE SO ALMIGHTY" shit. Or I'll shove my imaginary almighty dinosaur god (which will eventually eat your god) down you throat and you won't be able to refuse his existence. 'cuz I have as much proof as you do about your god. That is, none.
Don't get me started on actual religious people.
There's not much to deal with here. No one has proven God's existence in a factual manner, he doesn't exist. And don't come to me with the "GOD CAN'T BE PROVEN 'CUZ HE SO ALMIGHTY" shit. Or I'll shove my imaginary almighty dinosaur god (which will eventually eat your god) down you throat and you won't be able to refuse his existence. 'cuz I have as much proof as you do about your god. That is, none.
Don't get me started on actual religious people.
I never understood this argument, and I have seen it a few times too. What exactly are you saying here? You can just make up a God and if you wish believe in it and make a religion about it. So? What are you trying to say? Most of us live in free countries, we can think and say whatever we wish. If you honestly believe that there is an invisible dinosaur that eats rival gods, who am I to say your wrong? You can believe that all you wish.
Of course modern Gods really aren’t made up though, they are most likely (in the view on scientists and historians), the end result of ancient tales and epics, some of which might have some basis in truth, and some of which are the result people trying to explain of fears, hopes, and cultural views. They really where not made up on the spot like your dinosaur example.
what?
edit: mattj I know I'm gonna hit myself for this later but I'm gonna ask you to elaborate.
I swear to God if you say he's too cool to be proven...
Despite being completely adamantly anti-drug (I will probably never use anything but medicinal), I think it is obvious that "expanding your mind" goes hand in hand with religion. If you find spirituality in hallucinating / becoming stupid on drugs, you can still also find spirituality in some god too.
(sorry if I missed someone addressing this point, it did not seem to be there yet)
(sorry if I missed someone addressing this point, it did not seem to be there yet)
Why do the agnostics in this thread only wonder whether "God" (quotes because I'm quoting you all, not because Im making fun of it) exists, seems like you have been more affected by Western religious propaganda (and thats absolutely what it is, it is propaganda) then you may realize. Why do you not wonder whether there are multiple gods, why don't you question gender identity of this/these God(s)?
Perhaps there was only one God, and it did everything involved in Earth, etc. But then, wouldn't that God be so complex (as complex as us evolving from apes) that only another God would have been able to create it. I sometimes hear an argument for the existence of an overbeing based upon the principle that everything originated from something else. If this is so from where did God originate? There may even be an argument that God or gods were created along with everything else during the Big Bang, then they had their way with the loose matter.
Perhaps there was only one God, and it did everything involved in Earth, etc. But then, wouldn't that God be so complex (as complex as us evolving from apes) that only another God would have been able to create it. I sometimes hear an argument for the existence of an overbeing based upon the principle that everything originated from something else. If this is so from where did God originate? There may even be an argument that God or gods were created along with everything else during the Big Bang, then they had their way with the loose matter.
I am just wondering what is the point of saying that. I mean clearly you can believe in whatever you want, no matter how rediculus.
This video conveys exactly why I think believing in god is absurd, also it's pretty funny
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvRPbsXBVBo
also the whole no evidence and science contradicting most things about the bible and etc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvRPbsXBVBo
also the whole no evidence and science contradicting most things about the bible and etc
I dunno, you'd think if somebody was brave they'd be okay with questioning what they believe and risking their narrow view of things falling into doubt, which sucks, but lol whatever subjective opinions.
I'm Muslim. It's pretty similar to Christianity minus Jesus being Son of God/trinity being a concept, God being humanesque, and actually quite a few other differences. (So it's not all that similar go figure.)
The main thing it boils down to is: God/Allah is testing us in this life. If you believe in him, you'll eventually be rewarded in Heaven, but your actions determine how quickly you get to there.
I suppose I could answer some questions if they're in my ability to, since I'm a minority here so far.
The main thing it boils down to is: God/Allah is testing us in this life. If you believe in him, you'll eventually be rewarded in Heaven, but your actions determine how quickly you get to there.
I suppose I could answer some questions if they're in my ability to, since I'm a minority here so far.
atheism does not own science.
I'm not agnostic anymore, but that is not the agnostic point of view. The agnostic point of view is that you can't prove or disprove god; it is impossible to know for certain. What you are thinking of are people that say "hey I doubt god exists but i'll be "religious" anyway so if god does exist i'll go to heaven anyway" which is something entirely different. This is the main reason why I need proof of god because otherwise if I were to be religious it would be completely fake.
what view?
an atheist has faith in science, a christian has faith in Jesus, what does an agnostic have faith in??
if science is the study of the empirically observable universe, then saying there is no god is necessarily a declaration of blind faith...
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