np: OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Sandstorm (Excadrill/Thundurus Banned)

Status
Not open for further replies.
Tobes said:
We were doing so well, but I didn't expect Taylor of all people to derail the thread....

It's been shown again and again that arguing over what is and isn't broken in these threads accomplishes nothing. If you're being persuaded by a written argument that something is wrong instead of by actually playing, then there's a good chance something is off here. Please save the explanations for why something is broken for the nomination threads. Arguments here just drag the thread back into the "is Drizzle broken" quagmire it's been stuck in for such a long time, and I'd prefer not to see that happen again. So Taylor, although I realize you're probably reluctant to do this given your status as a Frontier Brain, instead of trying to ignite arguments, could you please share some sets and Pokemon you enjoy using and find successful in this metagame?
Click to expand...

I've not read Aldaron's proposal sadly. I've just played a lot of BW OU over the past five months or so and I just worry for how feel the metagame will unfold.

Experienced players, team preview, team building and all things considered, opens up a new realm of threats to flourish so easily after each round is perhaps exciting, but also worrying because strategies that are dominent are then exploited and a massive clusterfuck of a metagame is created.

I won't go any further though and sorry if I've offended anyone.

:toast:
 
Taylor said:
I've not read Aldaron's proposal sadly. I've just played a lot of BW OU over the past five months or so and I just worry for how feel the metagame will unfold.

Experienced players, team preview, team building and all things considered, opens up a new realm of threats to flourish so easily after each round is perhaps exciting, but also worrying because strategies that are dominent are then exploited and a massive clusterfuck of a metagame is created.

I won't go any further though and sorry if I've offended anyone.

:toast:
Click to expand...


Don't worry, I wasn't offended. You're certainly entitled to your opinion. It's just that this thread has managed to avoid becoming bogged down in bickering over the last few days, and I'm doing my best to keep it that way. I think we can all agree the thread has been much more useful and readable without constant debate. I'd greatly appreciate any contributions you have to give to the thread though, whether it's noting metagame trends, interesting things you've seen, or sets you enjoy using. This goes for everyone else too!
 
Taylor said:
I would like to share my thoughts on this round.

We don't seem to be getting anywhere in my honest opinion. Once a verdict on Thundurus position is final and assuming it is banned in the process, we still have good selection of Pokemon undecided. To name a few, Politoed, Dragonite and Latios.
Click to expand...

Just wondering, because I kind of agree with you. Which Dragonite set in particular do you think is broken?
 
in my opinion: Drizzle, Latios & Excadrill will always discussed 'till they will be banned lol

Dragonite is annoying, not broken.
 
Ewil said:
in my opinion: Drizzle, Latios & Excadrill will always discussed since they will be banned lol
Click to expand...

You have no proof of this, and the voting results of last round do nothing to back this up. Please keep speculation like this to a minimum.

Edit @ below: This is true. Stallmew absolutely destroys DDNite, for example. There's also the fact that very strong attacks (Specs DM from Latios for example) can OHKO even through Multiscale.
 
I agree with Ewil, but there's reasoning behind it. Dragonite depends heavily on Multiscale this gen to keep it out of Mence's territory, so you should expect almost all of its sets to be physical variants with Leftovers. Very rarely do I switch in my Hippowdon and eat a Draco Meteor for my troubles. Even without textbook counters to its wildcard sets, its mainstays (Bulky Dragon Dance, Parashuffler) are dumped on rather readily by good and common physical tanks. It also has a lot more checks than Mence because it's slower than molasses.

For all of that versatility, Dragonite is pretty predictable this time around. If you get hit with a Hurricane or Thunder instead, prepare to switch your Blissey in. If it goes old school, 4th gen wallbreaker, just be glad it's not Salamence.

EDIT: Honestly Tobes, get over yourself. You're not the sole proprietor of this thread and we can pretty easily ignore you and discuss what we want.
 
MetaGross66 said:
Just wondering, because I kind of agree with you. Which Dragonite set in particular do you think is broken?
Click to expand...

personally i find multiscale broken itself, so any set using it i guess. its practically taken it to the top of the metagame, and people can use it and build teams around it.
 
Ewil said:
in my opinion: Drizzle, Latios & Excadrill will always discussed 'till they will be banned lol

Dragonite is annoying, not broken.
Click to expand...

None of those are broken. Excadrill is borderline useless outside of sand and is all around manageable. Latios isn't broken this Gen largely due to it being weak to priority and easily revenged after being choice locked. The voters don't want to ban Drizzle or Politoed so forget about it and Dnite is countertable seeing as it's largely parashuffling or a worse mence
 
Tobes said:
You have no proof of this, and the voting results of last round do nothing to back this up. Please keep speculation like this to a minimum.
Click to expand...

Excadrill, Drizzle & Latios are top-tier (& broken, in my opinion, maybe not latios) also, they are discussed always for this, i was not meaning that they will be banned for sure, i was meaning that the discuss on them will stop if they will be banned.

@Nkululeko:on the Latios & Excadrill fact, i'm with you (excadrill is BL, yes), but drizzle is only first round that don't pass, the near 50% of voters votes BAN, and some voters (for the this round) can changes or the same voters can changes their opinion
 
SJCrew said:
EDIT: Honestly Tobes, get over yourself. You're not the sole proprietor of this thread and we can pretty easily ignore you and discuss what we want.
Click to expand...

Oof. I'm sorry, I hadn't stepped back and realized I was being overbearing. I guess I was just pleased that the thread was heading in a positive direction and wanted it to stay that way. Sorry if I came across as a douchebag, but I do think the thread is better because of it. I'll step back a little, but I just don't want the thread to degenerate back to squabbling mess it was just a week ago.
 
Well, then here's my opinion. If I understand this correctly it's not broken, but really good. Dragonite is not the reason things like Ferrothorn and Tyranitar are at the top. This is why I don't think it is broken. People just have to use it more. Of course I could be totally wrong here, but it definitely has the potential to be broken.
 
Dnite is top tier but not broken. I think we're forgetting that Multiscale makes it wall anything barring priority only if it's at full hp. Just wanted to point that out since it seems we all forgot we're talking about something SR weak with ~speed staying at full HP. KO the darn thing before it uses roost, not that hard with all the powerhouses in OU.
 
I personally don't find choiced Latios to be all that threatening. But I almost pee my pants when I see the Life Orb Calm Mind variants. Why do some people still run specs? IMO that's gimping him since he has to hit and run.

Also, that Megaman looking Pokemon with the saw head is really godly behind a sub. (So sue me, I'm bad with names.)
 
just picked up playing again after about a month away so just a few random observations to attempt to satisfy Tobes insatiable lust!

Rotom-W seems to be using Volt Switch a lot more nowadays, and since both he and Scizor are lynchpins on Rain teams they form a potent little momentum-gaining combination since a lot of the things that switch in to absorb Volt Switch get forced out by Scizor's U-turn (think Grass types, Lati@s, Blissey) and vice-versa (Flying, Fire and Steel types that come into U-turn get chased off by Rotom-W more often than not so he can just Volt Switch again).

Politoed seems to be rocking Choice Specs a lot more often, and I think one of the biggest benefits of playing him in that role is because he's one of the only things I would consider a true Rotom-W lure. I find Rotom-W switches into Politoed without a second thought but he normally takes a lot of damage on the switch as Hydro Pump does up to 70% to 252/0 Rotom-W, and has a tiny chance to OHKO 4/0 Rotom-W after Stealth Rock. I've yet to find anything else that can lure in the washing machine so efficiently and without bending over backwards prediction-wise. Definitely Politoed's best set - I usually run Perish Song in the last slot for utility and just enough Spe to outrun min Spe Rotom-W with the rest in HP. Makes for a reasonably bulky and incredibly hard hitting special attacker and team supporter and is one of the best Pokemon in the metagame atm imo. It's funny because I used to consider him a burden but now he's an occasional MVP.

The most annoying thing about this metagame for me isn't Thundurus or Latios or Excadrill or whatever everybody is pissed with at the moment - it's the complete shortage of Rapid Spinners compared to the easy access to entry hazards. I know I've bitched about this before but I'm sick to death of having to pack a Rapid Spinner since they all tend to be deadweight (with the exception of perhaps Excadrill who usually has better things to do and Starmie but even she has to choose between being a powerful special attacker or a reliable Rapid Spinner...she can't do both). It's a bit of a pain that this generation introduced Ferrothorn and reintroduced Deoxys-S but didn't give us any new effective Rapid Spinners with which to deal with them. I don't expect us to do anything about it, but I sincerely hope that Game Freak gives us some new Rapid Spinners sometime soon because all this residual damage is a bit of a joykiller for me.

Rain teams are still following the usual prototype (Politoed/Rotom-W/Ferrothorn/fast special attacker/bulky physical attacker/wild card) but Sand teams seem to have been shaken up a bit by Garchomp's banning and are yet to settle down. Excadrill seems to be running Life Orb (and presumably Adamant) a lot more since then and I've noticed a few more Sand teams packing Jellicent, probably in response to the increase in Choice Specs Politoed usage.
 
I see a not bad sashed lead variant of Bisharp, the very pain for him is the speed :/

EDIT:
@above: yeah, i've noticed the same thing about entry hazards & lack of new good spinners and is pretty frustrating.
And now that Garchomp is gone, the sand team are restricted to Tyranitar+Excradrill and the rest of the team are something in good sinergy with them.
 
It honestly baffles me that excadrill is still being voted OU time and time again. People keep saying that lots of things counter it and on paper maybe they do but in an actual battle, they don't always because they're rarely at 100% HP.

Take gliscor for instance. By far its biggest "counter" and probably the reason most people think he's manageable because everyone and their mother has a gliscor on their team. But now that people are actually getting smart and using adamant LO with frustration, gliscor takes 60-70% after switching into SD. Meanwhile standard EQ does 86-102% which is not close to a guaranteed OHKO. Sure, if gliscor was a full HP you might be able to pull it off with a bit of protect hax and smart switching but in a real battle, what are the chances that a wall like gliscor will be at full HP when it has to counter half the physical attackers in OU.

Then you've got the BS 30% rock slide flinch where 1 flinch is usually enough to get past any of its counters. And you thought garchomp's 20% chance of evading its counters' attacks was bad.

So now you're probably saying: well duh...if your counter is weakened or you get haxed anything can sweep you. WRONG. There's a thing called revenge killers. If machamp confuse haxes my reuniclus to death or jirachi flinches my gliscor 50 times in a row it's still not sweeping because you can just send in something faster to stop its sweep. But excadrill poses the same problem blaziken did in that you can't outspeed it without priority. And what are the common priority moves that can stop excadrill's sweep?

1. Mach punch conkeldurr
2. Mach punch breloom which no one uses outside dream world
3. Mach punch hitmontop which no one uses in OU
4. Aqua jet azumarill which is OK but still eh as an OU mon

When it comes to teambuilding, are you really forced to have 2 counters or a counter + 1 very specialized priority user in order to stop excadrill from sweeping? Because this pokemon is basically a combination of blaziken's ridiculous unrevengeable speed + garchomp's ability to hax past its so called counters + has the offensive power to abuse it.

So please someone explain this to me and I would appreciate a little bit more than "personally I have no trouble with it".
 
alphatron said:
Recently, I've been trying to run a bunch of random experimental junk. Reflect Type Latias with Magnezone support is friggin wonderful.
Click to expand...

I am intrigued. I am thinking that Reflect Type is to protect Latias from Scizor / Escavalier / Tyranitar? Losing its otherwise awesome typing and Dragon STAB stinks, though, and without SE moves, the 3 Pursuiters can still set up on you / hit you hard, unless they are choiced and locked to Pursuit / Crunch / U-turn.

Lee said:
The most annoying thing about this metagame for me isn't Thundurus or Latios or Excadrill or whatever everybody is pissed with at the moment - it's the complete shortage of Rapid Spinners compared to the easy access to entry hazards. I know I've bitched about this before but I'm sick to death of having to pack a Rapid Spinner since they all tend to be deadweight (with the exception of perhaps Excadrill who usually has better things to do and Starmie but even she has to choose between being a powerful special attacker or a reliable Rapid Spinner...she can't do both). It's a bit of a pain that this generation introduced Ferrothorn and reintroduced Deoxys-S but didn't give us any new effective Rapid Spinners with which to deal with them. I don't expect us to do anything about it, but I sincerely hope that Game Freak gives us some new Rapid Spinners sometime soon because all this residual damage is a bit of a joykiller for me.
Click to expand...

I think Tentacruel and Forretress are reliable rapid spinners. Now that Rotom-A is not a ghost type, most people either pack a Gengar or no spin-blockers at all (unless it's a stall-team). Even if they have a spinblocker, Tentacruel and Forretress can set up their own Toxic Spikes / Spikes for the team, evening out the advantages. Tentacruel last gen was pretty deadweight / set-up bait, but with Scald and Venoshock / Hex, it has more utility this gen. It's bulky enough to take a Gyro Ball or Power Whip from Ferrothorn I think, has Liquid Ooze to prevent Ferro from Leeching health, and can threaten it with a Burn. Tentacruel under Rain can utilize Rain Dish for faster recovery. Forretress also received buffs in a much-improved Sturdy Ability and Volt Switch to keep momentum. It kind of suffers from a 4 moveset-syndrome, but that just means it has many resources available.

astrohawke said:
So now you're probably saying: well duh...if your counter is weakened or you get haxed anything can sweep you. WRONG. There's a thing called revenge killers. If machamp confuse haxes my reuniclus to death or jirachi flinches my gliscor 50 times in a row it's still not sweeping because you can just send in something faster to stop its sweep. But excadrill poses the same problem blaziken did in that you can't outspeed it without priority. And what are the common priority moves that can stop excadrill's sweep?
Click to expand...

Other than priority users, you can also change the weather. Whether it be packing Politoed or Ninetales or packing Hail on some Pokemon is up to you. Dual weather is viable. If your team is also a sand team, you can still include a ScarfPolitoed to check opposing Excadrill, for instance.
 
Yeah ! Forretress and Tentacruel are good setuppers&spinners (and i see many forry running around) and Hitmontop can be a good spinner too
 
I don't know why Hitmontop isn't used more. He's very anti meta atm. With Technician boosting his Fake Out and Mach Punch, he can take out the T-Tar Exadrill combo that every sand team uses. You have to clear the field of ghosts though, because he can't really do anything to them. Another added bonus is that he can Sucker Punch the genie bros right out of the sky with decent prediction. There's also the foresight + rapid spin combo if you REALLY want those hazards gone.

I tend to use Lefties over Life Orb in OU though, since the combination of hazards + recoil + SS will wear him out very quickly. But with a bulky wish passer I can see him having a great niche. It's a shame Gliscor walls him hard. :c Can someone give me calcs of a Hitmontop's HP Ice does to Gliscor? I'm curious to see how much a surprise one would do.
 
with HP ice and no investiment in SpA, hitmon can 3-4HKO Gliscor with 252/0 without counting toxic orb recovery :(
 
If I did my math right, a Technician-boosted Hidden Power Ice with 0 SAtk EVs does 46% on average to Max HP / Min SpD Gliscor, a solid 3HKO that can become a 2HKO with some residual damage. This is with Leftovers. You'd probably be using a -Spe Nature I suppose.
 
That's actually better than I thought. It might be worth using.
Edit: I just checked the damage with a Technician boosted (HP Ice 60) Life Orb vs 0 SpD Gliscor, and I was shocked by how much it did. 55.4% - 65.5%!

I'll actually go test this out and report back with what I find.
 
Hitmontop doesn't need to beat Gliscor - he's not a sweeper. He's either used as a revenge killer or a Rapid Spinner and a Gliscor switch does not stop him from doing either of those jobs. If anything, the fact that Gliscor 'counters' Hitmontop so definitively can be used in your favour and set you up for some easy double-switches. Don't gimp yourself by running HP Ice on a Pokemon with 35 base SpA.

But yes, Hitmontop has the advantage of being one of a select few Rapid Spinners who don't get shat on by Ferrothorn. There's nothing more annoying than bringing in your Starmie/Donphan/Blastoise/Tentacruel/Cloyster/Claydol to get rid of Stealth Rock only for Ferrothorn to switch into your Spin, force you to take Iron Barbs damage and then set SR back up as you switch out/deal heavy damage if you stay in.
 
I believe the best spinner to have around is Forretress as it can switch into both Skarmory and Ferrothorn easily and force them out indirectly. Considering every turn Ferrothorn stays in after spinning is another opportunity for Forretress to bring his own layer of spikes. Seeing as your opponent usually doesn't pack a spinner this can prove a serious advantage throughout the game, effectively 'winning' the Ferrothorn-Forretress matchup in the long run.

Also i'm not sure why you are complaining about the lack of spinners in this generation. It was a lot worse in late Dppt when entry hazard/scarftar/rotom stall was the norm. In comparison i'd say spinning has become quite a bit easier now.
 
Yeah, i think that the only spinners that can deal with ferro are maybe Torkoal and Hitmontop (and tentacruel & forretress can setup and spin too) lol
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top