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A Brave New Tier
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I can't help but wonder if your list of eliminations actually does the opposite of what you want. I mean, a lot of the Pokemon you've banned help keep things like Heracross down, or they're counters to the dreaded Skarmbliss combination.
In any case, this seems a bit pointless now - only about 5-10 people here actually own DP and compete on WiFi. Perhaps later, when Competitor is out and DP is a bit more prevalent, you would do well to host a tournament based on this ideal and see how it pans out.
In any case, this seems a bit pointless now - only about 5-10 people here actually own DP and compete on WiFi. Perhaps later, when Competitor is out and DP is a bit more prevalent, you would do well to host a tournament based on this ideal and see how it pans out.
List of possible Heracross counters that cannot compete in the standard game with Hidden Power and the Pokémon above: Sandslash, Poliwrath, Kingler, Marowak, Hitmontop, Scizor, Feraligatr, Banette. It's far from a complete list.
Also, Weezing's still around.
Look, if you don't like the idea, you can just not post. If nobody's interested, the thread will die. But I know I'm seeing a lot of RMTs that already follow these rules and the people making them have explicitly stated that they don't want to use Hidden Power, etc. I already know what happened to the Advance metagame, and looking through these boards gives me a pretty good idea of what the beginning of the new one will be like. I'm merely presenting an alternative.
Also, this is not for a tournament. It's for regular play. You may think that the Pokémon I've cut off are arbitrary, but how are your OU, BL, UU, and NU lists any less arbitrary? BL and UU aren't tiers. They're just lists of Pokémon as they relate to the standard game where OU Pokémon dominate. Standard play consists almost completely of the list of banned Pokémon above and Pokémon that are good counters to the list above.
Also, Weezing's still around.
Look, if you don't like the idea, you can just not post. If nobody's interested, the thread will die. But I know I'm seeing a lot of RMTs that already follow these rules and the people making them have explicitly stated that they don't want to use Hidden Power, etc. I already know what happened to the Advance metagame, and looking through these boards gives me a pretty good idea of what the beginning of the new one will be like. I'm merely presenting an alternative.
Also, this is not for a tournament. It's for regular play. You may think that the Pokémon I've cut off are arbitrary, but how are your OU, BL, UU, and NU lists any less arbitrary? BL and UU aren't tiers. They're just lists of Pokémon as they relate to the standard game where OU Pokémon dominate. Standard play consists almost completely of the list of banned Pokémon above and Pokémon that are good counters to the list above.
Perhaps you could tell me which Pokémon on the banned list are good Heracross counters.
Heracross with:
Close Combat
Megahorn
Stone Edge
Earthquake
What can come in and take every one of those attacks easily?
This always-switching-to-a-counter metagame that you experience is exactly what this tier is meant to move away from. If you want to beat it, start using Pokémon that can disable incoming opponents enough so that you have a chance without switching.
Heracross with:
Close Combat
Megahorn
Stone Edge
Earthquake
What can come in and take every one of those attacks easily?
This always-switching-to-a-counter metagame that you experience is exactly what this tier is meant to move away from. If you want to beat it, start using Pokémon that can disable incoming opponents enough so that you have a chance without switching.
None of the Pokemon you listed are Heracross counters, except Weezing.
The tiers are far from arbitrary, they're based on stats, movepools, typing somewhat and actual testing to find out how good or bad they are and how they compete with everything else. If the tier lists were arbitrary, we'd already have them for all the new DP Pokemon.
Automatically banning anything that is a Legend or has a base 600 stat total is arbitrary. Metagross isn't allowed, but Rhyperior is? Entei (who is really quite poor) is banned, but Infernape isn't? Many Legends have equivalents that aren't significantly worse, or in some cases - better.
The tiers are far from arbitrary, they're based on stats, movepools, typing somewhat and actual testing to find out how good or bad they are and how they compete with everything else. If the tier lists were arbitrary, we'd already have them for all the new DP Pokemon.
Automatically banning anything that is a Legend or has a base 600 stat total is arbitrary. Metagross isn't allowed, but Rhyperior is? Entei (who is really quite poor) is banned, but Infernape isn't? Many Legends have equivalents that aren't significantly worse, or in some cases - better.
This sounds interesting, and I might enter once the games come out, but I'm just curious about the hidden power clause. Why is this banned on Wi-fi? Unlike competior, you have to work your ass off to get a pokemon with a good nature, good iv's, and a good hidden power. Getting all three is extremely difficult, and even if all three are accomplished, the odds of getting the hidden power that you want isn't as simple as 6 clicks. It takes hours or days to do all of that, and you're basically saying that a person who put in all of that work can't use it? Using hidden power in wi-fi would make it used for what it was originally intended for, your trump card, not "moveslot #4".
I'm just curious. Not knocking you down or anything. I'll probably try out your tier just for the fun of it, just want more info.
I'm just curious. Not knocking you down or anything. I'll probably try out your tier just for the fun of it, just want more info.
Entei and Articuno are the two that baffle me on that list, I don't expect them to be EVER seen on standard teams. Actuallt all your list is, is: "Clausing Legends plus Pokemon with Base 600 stats"...so its just the standard Metagame minus the Trio Legends and the 600 Pokes... Not much has changed =/
I respect all of your arguements, but you're arguing about a metagame you really know nothing about. This tier has worked to increase variety in the past, which is why I want to give everybody the opportunity to try it out. If people aren't interested, the thread will die. If people try out the tier and don't like it, the tier will die. Naysayers are just prolonging the life of the thread, so this will be my last post responding to them. I request that you keep the thread open so that anybody who is interested can post. If the thread dies, it dies. I will never bump it or otherwise artificially extend its life. This I promise.
which is exactly what youre doing about standard play. maybe people would take this more seriously if you didnt spout nonsense like 'sandslash is a viable heracross counter'
please, this is fucking stupid
Thanks for the encouragement! For those who work hard for their Hidden Power, then by all means they should use those Pokémon in standard play. I'm not trying to replace the metagame that will naturally form with the inclusion of the above Pokémon. Hidden Power contributes to the switch-intensive metagame because powerful Pokémon can cover more bases. It also limits creativity. Why would you consider using some of the cool support moves out there if you can just have another attack of a useful type? Since this tier is trying to move away from those things, Hidden Power is banned in this particular tier.
I respect all of your arguements, but you're arguing about a metagame you really know nothing about.
Aren't you doing the same thing, though? I really think you should at least sit back and let the metagame develop first before trying to push forth "revolutionary" new ideas. DP's metagame could work out just fine under our current ruleset assumptions (it seems to be doing well on WiFi); I see no reason to start taking it apart yet.
Aren't you doing the same thing, though? I really think you should at least sit back and let the metagame develop first before trying to push forth "revolutionary" new ideas. DP's metagame could work out just fine under our current ruleset assumptions (it seems to be doing well on WiFi); I see no reason to start taking it apart yet.
The regi-quartet deserve to be unbanned. They don't really have much use in the normal metagame, are IIRC unallowed in UU and now that they could possibly be useful in this metagame you're promoting, they're unallowed. Really, who is more fearsome, Heracross or Regirock?
Other than that, a cool idea that I'd definitely like to try out. But even more, I'd like to see the OU metagame settle down a bit (heck, the game hasn't even been released in USA yet) before serious plans on other metagames, like UU, NU or this are started.
Other than that, a cool idea that I'd definitely like to try out. But even more, I'd like to see the OU metagame settle down a bit (heck, the game hasn't even been released in USA yet) before serious plans on other metagames, like UU, NU or this are started.
The reason I posted is because I think you're drastically over estimating the power of Legends and base 600s. Like I said in your thread about Hidden Power, I think you're reducing the amount of opponents you'll find.
I would suggest you look at the dex entries for all the Pokemon you're proposing to ban (excluding those in the uber tier) and look specifically at their listed counters. You'll find they're not as unbalanced as you think.
I'm you're still really against them and wish to try and make your own metagame, then I wish you luck but you'll find it'll be more beneficial to include yourself in the ones already created, or are about to be with the release of DP/Competitor.
I would suggest you look at the dex entries for all the Pokemon you're proposing to ban (excluding those in the uber tier) and look specifically at their listed counters. You'll find they're not as unbalanced as you think.
I'm you're still really against them and wish to try and make your own metagame, then I wish you luck but you'll find it'll be more beneficial to include yourself in the ones already created, or are about to be with the release of DP/Competitor.
You make an excellent point. Perhaps this is a bit premature. However, I'm not trying to take anything apart. How many times must I say that this is not meant to replace the standard metagame that will develop? It appears to me that there are those who don't want to spend the time on Hidden Power and/or those who don't want to use Hidden Power or legendaries, etc (probably not the people that are on the board most of the time). I'm merely trying to create an environment that these people can play in without having to create their team around all of the overpowered Pokémon. Again, if nobody is interested, the thread will die.
What are you all so upset about? If my idea is so terrible, why bother posting? I'm not trying to steal your thunder, here. This thread isn't for people who don't like the idea. It's for people who do. If you don't like the idea, let the thread die naturally.
Misty, I guess I'm posting it now because I really want to get a jump-start on this generation. I want people to try this out before they're so set in their ways with the standard game that they don't want to change.
LOL because where I'm from (and I suspect everywhere else in America too) playing Pokemon is considered infantile and stupid :)
As was said, any metagame just depends on the players. Find the rules you like, play with the people that accept them. If I can convince someone to play against my hacked stuff, that'd be the no rules metagame too. Just not a widely accepted one.
Yes, see, that's what I'm trying to do with this thread, here. Get all the people who want to try these rules in one place. Unfortunately, the thread is being flooded with argumentative people who aren't interested. It's possible that there won't be many takers, but let's wait a day or two, shall we?
It's not that you are trying to steal people's thunder, it's more like you have an interesting idea that is "too early" right now. What I would do is keep a mental note of people who might be interested, and wait until D/P is released in the states in about 2 more weeks. Wait till people have actually played the games first, and developed strategies and stuff first. For right now, it's pointless to start banning stuff because we have a new metagame. We can't think from an advance viewpoint anymore, we have to think towards D/P now. In addition, there isn't an official standard list yet since we still haven't played the games yet. D/P switches things around a lot. Good pokemon suck now. Crappy pokemon are now awesome. There is the special/physical split as well. We have to take all of that into consideration.
Again, I'm not knocking you down. Just wait about a month or two after D/P has been released and people have gotten a good taste of d/p first. Then, if things still seem the same, revisit your idea.
Again, I'm not knocking you down. Just wait about a month or two after D/P has been released and people have gotten a good taste of d/p first. Then, if things still seem the same, revisit your idea.
I think what you'll find is quite the opposite - you just have to wait. Yeah, the standard metagame will be popular for a while, but then people get sick of the same old standards. That's when UU takes off, because it gives people a chance to play with Pokemon that they wouldn't see otherwise, and the excitement is reclaimed, at least for a while. Your idea might have potential if the standard metagame demonstrates an overreliance on legendaries and such, but for now it's really impossible to tell whether your idea is an improvement or perhaps even worse than the standard metagame.
Thank you. I have to say that you have an excellent point.
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