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np: UU Suspect Test Round 2 - Cold As Ice
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
- Start date
- Status
Has anyone read this post?
Snunch is right btw. Sandstorm might not be that broken, but Hail definitely is. Though if Hail gets banned, I think Sandstorm should get banned as well. I hope Hail gets banned and if it does, snadstorm goes with it. I don't think we want UU to be gen 4 OU (looks like a lot like it, except hail sucks there).
This. This has been my opinion for the past months, and with the glimmer of hope I had for sand balancing hail out (with Hippo dropping down to UU) gone, I'm all for an all-hail ban. The standard "any team with hail that isn't all out offensive blizzard spam" is simply better than most teams you'll find, with special cases being teams that spam fire-types or whatever. Honestly, they're just that good.
I guess I'll weigh my opinion on the Froslass fiasco.
A lot of people are comparing the Garchomp situation to Froslass' situation and I can see why. Both cases feature pokémon that are considered broken with the evasion boost from weather and I agree on both cases, but I believe that Garchomp is a different case.
Garchomp was banned to avoid a complex ban because no other Sand Veil users were considered broken. Froslass is a different case imo, Garchomp was a menace without Sand Veil and Froslass, as I'm sure we'd all unanimously agree, is not broken without Snow Cloak. Mamoswine will probably depart for OU soon, so he's not an issue.
I agree with the Froslass + Snow Warning ban, I believe this is the most preferable of our options. With a simple Froslass ban, we ban the broken use of Froslass in Hail, but also the non-broken Lass outside of it. With the Snow Warning + Snow Cloak ban, once again we ban the broken use of Lass in hail, but also the non-broken Glaceon and Beartic.
With this ban, we would keep a non-broken Froslass usable, but still ban the force that makes Hail so annoyingly luck-based. In addition, you could still use Glaceon and Beartic (lol) with Hail if you so desire.
I can see why people want to avoid a complex ban and we all have different views on this. My personal view is: If we have the ability to save a non-broken pokémon while still taking care of the broken issue, then why wouldn't we?
A lot of people are comparing the Garchomp situation to Froslass' situation and I can see why. Both cases feature pokémon that are considered broken with the evasion boost from weather and I agree on both cases, but I believe that Garchomp is a different case.
Garchomp was banned to avoid a complex ban because no other Sand Veil users were considered broken. Froslass is a different case imo, Garchomp was a menace without Sand Veil and Froslass, as I'm sure we'd all unanimously agree, is not broken without Snow Cloak. Mamoswine will probably depart for OU soon, so he's not an issue.
I agree with the Froslass + Snow Warning ban, I believe this is the most preferable of our options. With a simple Froslass ban, we ban the broken use of Froslass in Hail, but also the non-broken Lass outside of it. With the Snow Warning + Snow Cloak ban, once again we ban the broken use of Lass in hail, but also the non-broken Glaceon and Beartic.
With this ban, we would keep a non-broken Froslass usable, but still ban the force that makes Hail so annoyingly luck-based. In addition, you could still use Glaceon and Beartic (lol) with Hail if you so desire.
I can see why people want to avoid a complex ban and we all have different views on this. My personal view is: If we have the ability to save a non-broken pokémon while still taking care of the broken issue, then why wouldn't we?
Can't you peepz see Froslass isn't the only problem about hail? Blizzard spammers running rampant, stallrein being actually pretty damn good and froslass just makes it even broken.
I normally don't try and argue with a mod Heysup. I know my place on the food chain, so please excuse me if what I've typed sounds rude.
In the old days when all we had was ubers and OU with BW, SS+drizzle was the most commonly used thing besides SB blaziken. It was popular. So if it was so popular, then why did they ban it? It was used by players and considered broken. Just like this situation with froslass. Funny huh? However, SB blaziken and SS+drizzle were banned. But they were popular and used by lots of people. Those people would have said, "Keep these guys!". But they left anyways.
But you know what I find really funny? That we're arguing over weather (see what I did there?) or not we should ban a frozen kimono dress that shoots spikes from it's mouth.
In the old days when all we had was ubers and OU with BW, SS+drizzle was the most commonly used thing besides SB blaziken. It was popular. So if it was so popular, then why did they ban it? It was used by players and considered broken. Just like this situation with froslass. Funny huh? However, SB blaziken and SS+drizzle were banned. But they were popular and used by lots of people. Those people would have said, "Keep these guys!". But they left anyways.
But you know what I find really funny? That we're arguing over weather (see what I did there?) or not we should ban a frozen kimono dress that shoots spikes from it's mouth.
Hail definitely needs to go imo just because of how stupidly easy it is to abuse and win with it. Sand doesn't even hold a candle in this tier because hail rapes it as well as some of the most common abusers. The only one that can even come close to taking on anything without weather offensively is Stoutland and even then you can just BlizzSpam it to death. Hail makes some really stupid and otherwise crazy strategies work brilliantly (see previously mentioned BlizzSpam as well as Snow Cloak abuse which is getting almost as bad as when Garchomp was OU).
Agreeing on the point that Froslass without supporting weather is decidedly UU; while she is very fast and has taunt + status to completely screw up stall, Snow Cloak lets her get behind a sub and just make the opponent cry thanks to Taunt + Speed + Blizzard + Status + Snow Cloak. Other abusers like Walrein aren't as bad but if you give them the chance they will be terrifying to face, meaning that imo hail is BL.
On a completely different tangent, I think there could be a resurgence next round of teams relying on weather moves as opposed to autoweather, though sand has the inherent advantage (NFE status be damned), though again it's pretty easily checked through some smart playing considering that Cradily and Stoutland as well as Gligar can be taken out with the right Pokemon. Honestly i don't think sand is suspect worthy, but again I haen't played with it much. I'm sure more people will play with it more though next suspect round considering people usually default to autoweather to abuse it, lol.
Agreeing on the point that Froslass without supporting weather is decidedly UU; while she is very fast and has taunt + status to completely screw up stall, Snow Cloak lets her get behind a sub and just make the opponent cry thanks to Taunt + Speed + Blizzard + Status + Snow Cloak. Other abusers like Walrein aren't as bad but if you give them the chance they will be terrifying to face, meaning that imo hail is BL.
On a completely different tangent, I think there could be a resurgence next round of teams relying on weather moves as opposed to autoweather, though sand has the inherent advantage (NFE status be damned), though again it's pretty easily checked through some smart playing considering that Cradily and Stoutland as well as Gligar can be taken out with the right Pokemon. Honestly i don't think sand is suspect worthy, but again I haen't played with it much. I'm sure more people will play with it more though next suspect round considering people usually default to autoweather to abuse it, lol.
This is what I've been trying to say, I agree 100%.
You should never worry about arguing with a mod (or anyone else) if you have a well-supported argument.
Master Win said:
They didn't say that because they didn't follow the thinking that I criticized. They didn't claim "we use it, don't ban it". This is why I was baffled by those two posts in such short time - generally people don't have a problem with separating those two things.
@ Froslass vs Hail
I'm still not certain either one is broken, but if you want to debate Snow Warning + Froslass vs Snow Warning altogether, then what matters is the cause of the problem. It's obvious that Snow Warning is the cause of Hail but that doesn't mean it's the cause of Hail being broken. Without specific Pokemon to abuse Snow Warning, it may not be as threatening and can thus keep Hail intact as a strategy.while removing what pushes it over the line as broken.
Everywhere we go there's weather abusers in one way or another. We will never be able to avoid it. Froslass with snow cloak? Yes it may be a bit OP. But I understand the question. Should we ban hail or froslass?
Take this into consideration. We have been focusing so much on froslass, that we've forgotten some of the other hail abusers. Mamoswine loves the evasion boost. Glaceon loves the healing and so does regice. Walrein lives for hail and cold weather. Heck even beartic likes the evasion boost it gets every now and then. But these pokemon would be useless without hail. They would pretty much be trash. So my proposition is this. We ban froslass. It has great speed, an amazing movepool, decent enough typing, good supporting movepool, and an uber ability. I don't care what happens to hail or froslass, but I feel like I should contribute to help out. Who knows? Something inteligible comes out of my mouth every now and then.
Take this into consideration. We have been focusing so much on froslass, that we've forgotten some of the other hail abusers. Mamoswine loves the evasion boost. Glaceon loves the healing and so does regice. Walrein lives for hail and cold weather. Heck even beartic likes the evasion boost it gets every now and then. But these pokemon would be useless without hail. They would pretty much be trash. So my proposition is this. We ban froslass. It has great speed, an amazing movepool, decent enough typing, good supporting movepool, and an uber ability. I don't care what happens to hail or froslass, but I feel like I should contribute to help out. Who knows? Something inteligible comes out of my mouth every now and then.
Case in point: hail kinda blows in RU. There's no Froslass and Mamo, not to mention no Victini, Nidoqueen, or Hitmontop.
About Froslass and Snow Cloak...
I don't see this thing ending with a complex ban...
Why?...Well because in OU we had an exactly same situation with Grachomp.
Everyone was sick of Garchomp 'cause you couldn't reliably beat him in sand.
Without Sand Veil he wouldn't have been banned,'cause he could be easily revenge killed and had enough counters(Skarmory,Bronzong,Slowbro,Porygon2).
It is the same with Froslass.
Except that Froslass provides immense support instead of outright murdering the opposing team(it can hit hard also with Blizz).
And in ou they banned Garchomp not Sand Veil with Sand Stream.
So it is clear that the outcome here will be the same since all the factors are the same in the 2 situations.Except if a major change of philosophy happens and everyone decides to go for the complex ban...
I was also supporting a Sand Veil and Snow Cloak complex ban in combination with their respective weather inducing abilites.
And i did so not because everything that abuses Sand Veil or Snow Cloak is broken but because of the luck that these abilites introduce in the meta.
Also i was supporting this ban as an extention of the evasion ban.
I don't understand how can Double Team and Minimize are banned,while the evasion raising abilites are not.
First of all i will try to clear this misconception that many people have about the evasion raising moves.
Many people consider those moves totally broken because if you get to full evasion almost nothing could hit you...
While this is true,the hard part is where do you find these 6 free turns?
A guy here in smogon proved that statistically Double Team is worth using only once as it's effects get worse with each use.
So you are better off using DT once and then start boosting something else for example.
So i wonder why the evasion raising abilites are still running free in a meta where evasion raising moves are banned.
Especially when you consider that the abilites give the best part of the evasion(the 20% boost in evasion that the 1st use of DT gives)without even wasting any turn...
So we have the best evasion increasing tool still allowed,while it is clear that our policy in general doesn't want evasion abusing strategies in the meta.
And i ask,why?
Even though i don't agree with his ban and i would have preferred a combo ban of sand veil + sandstream,the majority of the community seems to believe that if a polemon becomes broken under certain battle conditions(weather,hazards etc)then the whole pokemon should be banned in and out of these conditions.
I don't see this thing ending with a complex ban...
Why?...Well because in OU we had an exactly same situation with Grachomp.
Everyone was sick of Garchomp 'cause you couldn't reliably beat him in sand.
Without Sand Veil he wouldn't have been banned,'cause he could be easily revenge killed and had enough counters(Skarmory,Bronzong,Slowbro,Porygon2).
It is the same with Froslass.
Except that Froslass provides immense support instead of outright murdering the opposing team(it can hit hard also with Blizz).
And in ou they banned Garchomp not Sand Veil with Sand Stream.
So it is clear that the outcome here will be the same since all the factors are the same in the 2 situations.Except if a major change of philosophy happens and everyone decides to go for the complex ban...
I was also supporting a Sand Veil and Snow Cloak complex ban in combination with their respective weather inducing abilites.
And i did so not because everything that abuses Sand Veil or Snow Cloak is broken but because of the luck that these abilites introduce in the meta.
Also i was supporting this ban as an extention of the evasion ban.
I don't understand how can Double Team and Minimize are banned,while the evasion raising abilites are not.
First of all i will try to clear this misconception that many people have about the evasion raising moves.
Many people consider those moves totally broken because if you get to full evasion almost nothing could hit you...
While this is true,the hard part is where do you find these 6 free turns?
A guy here in smogon proved that statistically Double Team is worth using only once as it's effects get worse with each use.
So you are better off using DT once and then start boosting something else for example.
So i wonder why the evasion raising abilites are still running free in a meta where evasion raising moves are banned.
Especially when you consider that the abilites give the best part of the evasion(the 20% boost in evasion that the 1st use of DT gives)without even wasting any turn...
So we have the best evasion increasing tool still allowed,while it is clear that our policy in general doesn't want evasion abusing strategies in the meta.
And i ask,why?
It's not as simple as you are saying 'cause the same thing happened in ou with garchomp,but finally garchomp got banned.
Even though i don't agree with his ban and i would have preferred a combo ban of sand veil + sandstream,the majority of the community seems to believe that if a polemon becomes broken under certain battle conditions(weather,hazards etc)then the whole pokemon should be banned in and out of these conditions.
I'm a little dizzy hearing all of this complex banning. Why?! Why should we complex ban froslass? I think it isn't fair, as in OU I tried defending blaziken saying that we can just ban speed boost and the whole thing would be done with. However, people said nobody would use blaziken then and it was a complex ban so we couldn't do it. Meanwhile, we ban SS+drizzle..... I don't see how froslass should get the special treatment when blaziken could work wonders in UU. Blaziken = wallbreaker that has decent coverage. Froslass = something that can use spikes and blizzspam. Froslass wouldn't be special anymore without snow cloak.
Okay, this is the part of your logic that I think is flawed.
Some of us were suggesting to simply ban Abomasnow or Froslass.
So judging by what you posted, Abomasnow is the obvious choice of the two to ban.
Yes, it is. Froslass is an effective pokemon which is pushing towards being op thanks to hail. Banning Froslass (or snow cloak), though, fixes one problem, but not all of them, as hail teams as a whole are op. Which is why banning Abomasnow (again) is the way to go.
Do I need to elaborate on this further? I think posts before this have done that already.
Do I need to elaborate on this further? I think posts before this have done that already.
That's not right at all, that's literally suggesting we ban Abomasnow for Froslass's crimes. Hail as a playstyle gets the raw end of the deal there. Why nuke it altogether if most of its damage comes from one Pokemon? If sprinkling a little snow on Froslass (and nothing else) makes her such a broken bitch, then it's pretty clear to me that her time is up.
I feel like I missed an entire block of conversation here. When did we conclude Hail teams were broken and why? I don't think we can get any effective data on that when almost all of them have Froslass. She gets hazards up, keeps them up, beats most spinners in the tier, and gives offensive Pokemon hell with Thunder Wave, Blizzard, and untimely misses. The residual damage stacks up pretty quickly. If you want to prove that "Hail" is broken, do it in a tier without Froslass. She's clearly the most overpowered thing in it right now, and I think it's weighing in heavily on the judgment of UU players who think the problem is the snow.
Before I continue, lots of posters are confusing two scenarios and are basically unintentionally strawmanning each other.
Obviously if hail isn't broken,and it's just Froslass + Snow Warning that is, it doesn't make any sense to Ban Abomasnow.
Obviously if hail is broken, Abomasnow is the way to go.
(I hid your post because it's very long, but it's still there for reference)
Evasion Clause is not really up for discussion here, but it was discussed heavily in PR if you want to search it up.
Anyway, I don't think I need to go over the reason why OU comparisons are invalid with respect to Froslass and Hail, but I will in case no one saw it earlier.
1. UU =/= OU
OU is a different environment. Just because Garchomp has a similar ability to Froslass does not all of the sudden make the situation analogous. Yes, we are talking about banning, but that's the only similarity. Think about it this way, you are comparing being trapped in a room of water (where you would drown) versus a room of fire (where you would burn). You don't necessarily use the same methods (you could, but it may not be the most effective way) to solve the problem, but effectively, something needs to change or you'll die either way.
2. UU Hail =/= OU Sandstorm
This is basically just a sub point from the above, but it's more specific.
OU sandstorm is not nearly broken on its own without chomp. In fact, you cannot even compare the two offensively or defensively. The only thing they share is the 6.25% damage per turn!
3. Froslass =/= Garchomp
Obviously they aren't the same Pokemon, but what I'm getting at is that they are nowhere near the same functionally or in terms of relative power to their specific metagames. For instance, Froslass in Hail didn't win the game, it just annoyed the fuck out of everything and made itself very hard to kill while spamming 120 BP Blizzards with 350 Speed (in UU that's a fuckload as we all know) while Garchomp is essentially a sweeper that destroys teams. Most importantly, Garchomp was a huge problem outside of Sandstorm as well, but Froslass outside of hail is unanimously decided as not broken.
What OU does makes no difference here, they could have done something wrong (not that they did, I have no idea). It is unfortunate that you're on the opposite sides of the debate, but that doesn't matter.
And it's not a "complex" ban, it's a simple banning of the combination that is in fact broken. Tell me, why did you want to defend Blaziken? I'm assuming it's because it wasn't broken without SB. People may have, unfortunately, not cared enough to make a combo ban because Blaziken would get no use in OU otherwise (overlooking future UU potential), however, Froslass is more obviously a case in which it will get use otherwise. Blanket banning Froslass in and out of hail brings the highest collateral damage out of all of the bans, why wouldn't we combo ban it?
I'm not sure I understand how that makes it flawed, you basically repeated what I said. To clarify, it's simply to ban what is in fact broken. If Froslass is broken in hail, ban Froslass + Snow Warning. If Hail is broken as a strategy ban Abomasnow (/ Snover).
There are two obvious choices for two possible scenarios. What ever is decided about hail itself should have a major influence on how we react with our ban.
It seems like you answered your own question below....people have been suggesting that Froslass isn't the only thing that makes hail broken and that it's broken as a strategy. If this is the case (it may or may not be), then obviously banning Froslass doesn't make any sense.
It's still up for debate on whether or not hail is broken as a team, however your way of thinking makes me wonder if you're not suggesting the banning of the symptom rather than the cause (as Snunch pointed out earlier). As Snunch said, Froslass's bullshit can be done by other Pokemon, the fact that such incredible Pokemon can abuse Hail makes it possible that Hail is the true cause here.
I'm undecided, personally, but either way I'd only be upset if we ban Froslass in and out of hail because it makes no sense.
Obviously if hail isn't broken,and it's just Froslass + Snow Warning that is, it doesn't make any sense to Ban Abomasnow.
Obviously if hail is broken, Abomasnow is the way to go.
(I hid your post because it's very long, but it's still there for reference)
Evasion Clause is not really up for discussion here, but it was discussed heavily in PR if you want to search it up.
Anyway, I don't think I need to go over the reason why OU comparisons are invalid with respect to Froslass and Hail, but I will in case no one saw it earlier.
1. UU =/= OU
OU is a different environment. Just because Garchomp has a similar ability to Froslass does not all of the sudden make the situation analogous. Yes, we are talking about banning, but that's the only similarity. Think about it this way, you are comparing being trapped in a room of water (where you would drown) versus a room of fire (where you would burn). You don't necessarily use the same methods (you could, but it may not be the most effective way) to solve the problem, but effectively, something needs to change or you'll die either way.
2. UU Hail =/= OU Sandstorm
This is basically just a sub point from the above, but it's more specific.
OU sandstorm is not nearly broken on its own without chomp. In fact, you cannot even compare the two offensively or defensively. The only thing they share is the 6.25% damage per turn!
3. Froslass =/= Garchomp
Obviously they aren't the same Pokemon, but what I'm getting at is that they are nowhere near the same functionally or in terms of relative power to their specific metagames. For instance, Froslass in Hail didn't win the game, it just annoyed the fuck out of everything and made itself very hard to kill while spamming 120 BP Blizzards with 350 Speed (in UU that's a fuckload as we all know) while Garchomp is essentially a sweeper that destroys teams. Most importantly, Garchomp was a huge problem outside of Sandstorm as well, but Froslass outside of hail is unanimously decided as not broken.
What OU does makes no difference here, they could have done something wrong (not that they did, I have no idea). It is unfortunate that you're on the opposite sides of the debate, but that doesn't matter.
And it's not a "complex" ban, it's a simple banning of the combination that is in fact broken. Tell me, why did you want to defend Blaziken? I'm assuming it's because it wasn't broken without SB. People may have, unfortunately, not cared enough to make a combo ban because Blaziken would get no use in OU otherwise (overlooking future UU potential), however, Froslass is more obviously a case in which it will get use otherwise. Blanket banning Froslass in and out of hail brings the highest collateral damage out of all of the bans, why wouldn't we combo ban it?
I'm not sure I understand how that makes it flawed, you basically repeated what I said. To clarify, it's simply to ban what is in fact broken. If Froslass is broken in hail, ban Froslass + Snow Warning. If Hail is broken as a strategy ban Abomasnow (/ Snover).
There are two obvious choices for two possible scenarios. What ever is decided about hail itself should have a major influence on how we react with our ban.
It seems like you answered your own question below....people have been suggesting that Froslass isn't the only thing that makes hail broken and that it's broken as a strategy. If this is the case (it may or may not be), then obviously banning Froslass doesn't make any sense.
SJCrew said:
It's still up for debate on whether or not hail is broken as a team, however your way of thinking makes me wonder if you're not suggesting the banning of the symptom rather than the cause (as Snunch pointed out earlier). As Snunch said, Froslass's bullshit can be done by other Pokemon, the fact that such incredible Pokemon can abuse Hail makes it possible that Hail is the true cause here.
I'm undecided, personally, but either way I'd only be upset if we ban Froslass in and out of hail because it makes no sense.
Normally people don't like combo bans because they make the metagame confusing. Or so they say. They would get confused wondering why they can't use snow cloak froslass in UU, but they can use a different ability froslass in UU. So I was just thinking of something helpful. That's all. But if the UU players are fine with a complex ban, then so be it. It will be a majority. I'm fine with that. Hail is a unique weather as it's not as powerful as the other weathers. I can't think of any OU mons that can take advantage of the blistering cold atmosphere right now.
Thought I'll leave an opinion.
If it weren't for Aldaron's complex ban involving Swift Swim and Drizzle, I would have to say ban Froslass. But thanks to the precedent, I can see no reason not to use a similar complex ban here: Snow Cloak + Snow Warning. Maybe people hate complex bans or whatever, we still have precedent and that's enough for me.
As for hail as a hole, I'm not convinced it is broken. Of all the Pokemon Snunch listed perhaps the only one I would consider top tier is Mamoswine. The rest are perfectly viable, but not near the biggest threats in the metagame, compared to Pokemon like Raikou, Chansey, Empoleon, etc. Blizspam is tough cookies to beat though, I'll grant; you need at least two Ice resists.
If it weren't for Aldaron's complex ban involving Swift Swim and Drizzle, I would have to say ban Froslass. But thanks to the precedent, I can see no reason not to use a similar complex ban here: Snow Cloak + Snow Warning. Maybe people hate complex bans or whatever, we still have precedent and that's enough for me.
As for hail as a hole, I'm not convinced it is broken. Of all the Pokemon Snunch listed perhaps the only one I would consider top tier is Mamoswine. The rest are perfectly viable, but not near the biggest threats in the metagame, compared to Pokemon like Raikou, Chansey, Empoleon, etc. Blizspam is tough cookies to beat though, I'll grant; you need at least two Ice resists.
I personally feel that restricting non-Froslass Snow Cloakers from being played with Snow Warning is silly, just to keep Froslass in UU. Again Aldaron's Proposal had more Pokemon at stake (many swift swimmers were deemed too much for OU, especially when the player decided to pack more than one of them in his or her team).
Yes, Froslass is perhaps the only relevant Snow Cloaker in UU - still it doesn't make sense to impose restrictions on monsters that are not obviously broken if you can help it.
Froslass + Snow Warning is more appropriate of a clause. If Jabba let's Pokemon + Ability bans, this would be the way to go. If not, the next appropriate decision would be to ban Froslass. imo.
Yes, Froslass is perhaps the only relevant Snow Cloaker in UU - still it doesn't make sense to impose restrictions on monsters that are not obviously broken if you can help it.
Froslass + Snow Warning is more appropriate of a clause. If Jabba let's Pokemon + Ability bans, this would be the way to go. If not, the next appropriate decision would be to ban Froslass. imo.
i find it interesting that starraptor is once again in the bl.... that guy is a beast... this place is littered with legendaries and staraptor gets banned... Just goes to show u how powerful he is...
One problem... snow cloak + snow warning isnt the same as doubling speed, and gaining another stab boost on water attacks.
One problem... snow cloak + snow warning isnt the same as doubling speed, and gaining another stab boost on water attacks.
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