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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Sandstorm (Excadrill/Thundurus Banned)
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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Substitute and Magic Bounce don't block Haze, and Milotic can Haze anything on BP teams safely except for Espeon, and maybe Celebi.
Anyway, the point of Haze is not to completely beat BP chains, but to make them have to start over. Taunt Haxorus (Mold Breaker nullifies Magic Bounce) used alongside Haze Milotic helps break BP chains.
At the same time though Espeon is not inherently broken, just the combination of BP+Magic Mirror. I can understand your argument and honostly I agree with you. By that same logic if we ban Baton Pass we're literally banning a playstyle which rips weather arguments a new one. But it's Espeon without a shadow of doubt is not broken. Only the combination of BP and Magic Mirror. We could complex ban but then we'd be hypocrites for Blaziken. We could ban Baton Pass but then we'd be hypocrites for not banning weather. We could ban Espeon but then we'd be hypocrites for banning something that's not inherently broken. In any situation we lose.
However, if I were to pick given your arguments influence then I'd have to agree with you. Espeon is the lesser of 3 evils.
Why would keeping the strategy that certain voters used to get reqs be valid motivation for voting weather OU when this is the last round of testing?
Er a simple majority would ban thundurus this round.
I don't want to see Smogon change into the leading community on competitive battling...that bans everything it doesn't like. I really want to see more thought go into the nomination process, and more thought gone into the suspect process. For the love of god, any of you qualified voters...don't fuck up Smogon...don't ban baton pass in its purest form.
In regards to Thorhammer's proposition of Magic Mirror + Baton Pass...I've thought about that. I don't see the need for it. There is only one current case of Magic Mirror/Baton Pass availability. Why not just ban Espeon (or atleast, nominate Espeon on its own) and ignore the need for the complext ban? I don't see complex bans as a problem if they make a dirty situation more clean, but this is a complex ban for a single Pokemon. I kind of don't see the reason of going all in on something when there's only a minor problem.
In regards to Thorhammer's proposition of Magic Mirror + Baton Pass...I've thought about that. I don't see the need for it. There is only one current case of Magic Mirror/Baton Pass availability. Why not just ban Espeon (or atleast, nominate Espeon on its own) and ignore the need for the complext ban? I don't see complex bans as a problem if they make a dirty situation more clean, but this is a complex ban for a single Pokemon. I kind of don't see the reason of going all in on something when there's only a minor problem.
Even if that's the case, a +1/+1 Dragonite isnt going to be sweeping entire teams. If your opponent was smart, he'd always attack turn 1 to break Multiscale and after that... Dragonite is just an inferior Salamence in a metagame where Salamence isn't even much of a threat.
badabing said:
I'm gonna call bs on this. So you'd have to run Sub/DD/Outrage (D-claw) and either Fire Punch/Earthquake or Roost. Either way you're losing out on something important. I really cant see how this is better than the Lum set tbh.
badabing said:
Yes and by running Roost you effectively lose a very very important coverage move. SR is common enough to be used as a viable arguement. Spinners are a poor countermeasure and if it needs that much support then i seriously doubt its brokenness. If it has even a spec of residual damage from any attack that its lefties couldn't heal it's basically Gen 4 nite again and gen 4 nite wasn't broken at all.
badabing said:
What i was trying to say was that it cant run all of those sets at once and often, you'll know which set it is immediately. Wallbreaker Nite isnt broken. CB Nite isnt broken. And i highly doubt that any variant of DD Nite is broken. There are a plethora of checks and even counters to all its sets. It might be annoying but its not broken.
Here you go love.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3888138&postcount=74
Keep in mind it's only the non-Pokemon suspect topic/results and the Pokemon suspect topic just started.
Since when is Baton Pass even broken? The basis of most people's arguments for it seem to be in two parts:
Just because you don't want to / can't be bothered to carry a counter doesn't mean it's broken. I'm seconding blarajan's point on this process turning into a machine to ban things that we don't like. Ban things that are broken, not things that are just annoying.
Seriously, Baton Pass getting majority must be the biggest bandwagon I've ever seen, probably caused by the fact that non-reqs users are allowed to nominate things, and this is seriously making me lose faith in the suspect testing process.
Sounds like it applies to... just about everything. BAN EVERYTHING
Perish Song is an extremely viable move on Politoed / Celebi. Any Prankster Taunter can cause issues to Baton Pass (don't say Espeon, Taunt is outspeeding the Baton Pass). Dragon Tail / Circle Throw isn't getting stopped by Espeon and when the main Substitute passer of a lot of BP teams (or at least, the pokemon they start out with) is Ninjask, breaking the subs is by no means an issue. There's also Mold Breaker Taunt Haxorus, any Haze user, or even setting up alongside. You can also often just pound the opponent with strong attacks.
Just because you don't want to / can't be bothered to carry a counter doesn't mean it's broken. I'm seconding blarajan's point on this process turning into a machine to ban things that we don't like. Ban things that are broken, not things that are just annoying.
Seriously, Baton Pass getting majority must be the biggest bandwagon I've ever seen, probably caused by the fact that non-reqs users are allowed to nominate things, and this is seriously making me lose faith in the suspect testing process.
Just for fun I went to the nom thread and CTRL+F'D:Espeon and Magic bounce in what is a Baton pass nom,it ended something like this:
TL;DR:Espeon is one of the reasons Baton pass got that many noms in the first place and should have been the suspect instead of baton pass.
I might be wrong in some numbers though.
Page 1:
Page 2
Page 3:
Page 4:
Final page:
Page 2
Page 3:
Page 4:
Final page:
TL;DR:Espeon is one of the reasons Baton pass got that many noms in the first place and should have been the suspect instead of baton pass.
I might be wrong in some numbers though.
Baton pass team vs red card
who wins?
who wins?
Shock Wave vs Double Team
who wins?
But it is not the question.
Shock Wave and red card suck in 99% situations.
Whom of you had tested BP to said it is broken? I used them and it really sucks. I don't want you ban MB Espeon BP because I could not use as CM+Baton Pass, Screener+Baton Pass(To escape from Pursuit) .... or simple chains with Espeon+RandomPoke1+RandomPoke2
It's true that "If it's popular, it's broken" is a complete fallacy, but it's also irrelevant.
I'm arguing that the converse, "If it's not popular, it's not broken" is true.
And given that we're a competitive community, we should be trying to win. A broken strategy, if it really is broken, should be giving out plenty of wins. So in a proper competitive community, a broken strategy should, by all means, be popular while it's still legal.
I was able to easily get 1400 with shell smash spam with Huntail and Gorybyss . Baton pass isnt the problem. But passing +2 attack and speed to something like a moxie Gyarados or a terrakion with hp ice is just asinine and completely unfair. With team preview all i need to do is figure out how to get to the best sweeper and then go from their. With Huntail and Gorybuss i get two chances to set up . Not to mention cloyster who learns this broken move naturally.
Red card doesnt suck, it´s good for stop boosters, and i often saw it in OU.
How can stopping a supposedly "broken" strategy suck?
Double Team isn't even broken; it's under evasion clause because it's luck-dependent, not because it was ever tested to be overcentralizing and stagnating to the metagame. That's why no one would ever use Shock Wave; it's a crappy move that stops a crappy strategy.
Double Team isn't even broken; it's under evasion clause because it's luck-dependent, not because it was ever tested to be overcentralizing and stagnating to the metagame. That's why no one would ever use Shock Wave; it's a crappy move that stops a crappy strategy.
Double Team and minimize are broken, they force to run crappy moves like Shock Wave not useful out of this.
You are talking about how to hazard Baton pass, but think it with another point of view.
BP teams are almost offensive-less. What would they do against powerful hitters like Haxorus, Dragonite or Latios?
Usually, losing a member or two in a Baton Pass chain means game over.
And remember, Team preview does not help Baton pass chains.
You are talking about how to hazard Baton pass, but think it with another point of view.
BP teams are almost offensive-less. What would they do against powerful hitters like Haxorus, Dragonite or Latios?
Usually, losing a member or two in a Baton Pass chain means game over.
And remember, Team preview does not help Baton pass chains.
There are three ways to stop BP:
1 Phaze with WW or Roar or if a Espeon switch in is predicted, use Dragon Tail.
2 Use Red Card.
3 This is probably the most easy one of all, HIT EARLY AND HARD.
Now let's see how each one fits in a playstyle:
1 Fits easily (mandatory, actually) in stall teams.
2 Can be used, but will waste a precious item slot.
3 Fits easily on HO teams.
Please note that I am assuming at 1 that you are smart enough not to leave an opening for a Sub.
Also note that at 3 I assume you won't wait till around turn 20 to employ this strategy.
How is it broken? I honestly don't see it's brokenness.
1 Phaze with WW or Roar or if a Espeon switch in is predicted, use Dragon Tail.
2 Use Red Card.
3 This is probably the most easy one of all, HIT EARLY AND HARD.
Now let's see how each one fits in a playstyle:
1 Fits easily (mandatory, actually) in stall teams.
2 Can be used, but will waste a precious item slot.
3 Fits easily on HO teams.
Please note that I am assuming at 1 that you are smart enough not to leave an opening for a Sub.
Also note that at 3 I assume you won't wait till around turn 20 to employ this strategy.
How is it broken? I honestly don't see it's brokenness.
I think baton pass being taken out of the blue with a majority this round vs barely a vote for weather which has been in the works for the past 2 or so rounds is just ridiculous.
DD haxorus has a field day with bp teams, cloyster laughs completely. Team preview screws them over, baton pass teams are put under pressure from the start due to their nature of being harder to take down after more time. And priority taunt isn't cock blocked by espeon either. Baton pass is a move. It isn't a centralizing strategy, there are full chains and occasional passers. This sounds like banning substitute imo.
Maybe its because baton pass teams could stop weather teams.
DD haxorus has a field day with bp teams, cloyster laughs completely. Team preview screws them over, baton pass teams are put under pressure from the start due to their nature of being harder to take down after more time. And priority taunt isn't cock blocked by espeon either. Baton pass is a move. It isn't a centralizing strategy, there are full chains and occasional passers. This sounds like banning substitute imo.
Maybe its because baton pass teams could stop weather teams.
Hope this was just a hazy guess and not another argument starter.
But seriously now, how is BP broken?
I'm pretty sure tons of people would like to know how the move Baton Pass is even suspect.
I see it as being similar to classifying Outrage as broken if Dragonite, Garchomp, and Salamence were all suspect. Not quite the same, but similar.
Voting Results said:
WTF IS THIS SH*T?
Seriously, just ban Espeon if MB+BP is such a problem. Banning Baton Pass itself isn't like banning Drizzle or Drought - it's literally eliminating a style of play altogether.
So for the love of Arceus, don't be a dipsh*t-on-a-bandwagon by voting to ban Baton Pass in its purest form!
Thank goodness weather is still going to be around.
As well, I personally feel the suspect team screwed up with the Baton Pass fiasco. Baton Passing a Nasty Plot from a Celebi to a Tornadus is not broken. Its BP chains and Smash Passing that are. This is another case like Drizzle+Swift Swim where a complex ban is more beneficial than a simple blanket ban on baton passs.
As well, I personally feel the suspect team screwed up with the Baton Pass fiasco. Baton Passing a Nasty Plot from a Celebi to a Tornadus is not broken. Its BP chains and Smash Passing that are. This is another case like Drizzle+Swift Swim where a complex ban is more beneficial than a simple blanket ban on baton passs.
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