Substitute and Magic Bounce don't block Haze, and Milotic can Haze anything on BP teams safely except for Espeon, and maybe Celebi.Haze Milotic does not even beat Baton Pass chains as they will stall you out or weaken Milotic to a point at which it can be ko'd.
At the same time though Espeon is not inherently broken, just the combination of BP+Magic Mirror. I can understand your argument and honostly I agree with you. By that same logic if we ban Baton Pass we're literally banning a playstyle which rips weather arguments a new one. But it's Espeon without a shadow of doubt is not broken. Only the combination of BP and Magic Mirror. We could complex ban but then we'd be hypocrites for Blaziken. We could ban Baton Pass but then we'd be hypocrites for not banning weather. We could ban Espeon but then we'd be hypocrites for banning something that's not inherently broken. In any situation we lose.We do NOT need another complex ban. [The first one should never have existed, Drizzle should have been banned outright, especially as it's still a powerful, massivly centralising force in the metagame]
There is only one pokemon with Magic Bounce and Baton Pass.
This pokemon is Espeon.
Hence, Espeon is broken. It's the same logic as why we didn't do Speed Boost + Blaziken like some people asked, because it's part of the same pokemon.
As long as Espeon remains the sole pokemon with the MB + BP combination, there should not be a complex ban. Espeon is the one at fault. [And, to be honest, Espeon's Base 115 Speed dosen't help things. I doubt that combo would be broken with Xatu]
This logic is why I nominated Espeon. Baton Pass in itself is not broken. It wasn't broken with Shell Smash around, although it was annoying. But Magic Mirror thrown in broke it.
For argument's sake, let's say Mew got Magic Bounce as it's Dream World ability as well. And, obviously, Mew broke Baton Pass with that. In this situation where there are two broken pokemon with the combination, then I would support a Magic Bounce + BP ban.
*Note this may not be the best argument, because MB Mew would probobly be broken outright, hence, removing Espeon's partner, nessitateing an Espeon ban again*
But as long as Espeon is alone, we should ban not Baton Pass, not BP+MM, but the broken factor, which is Espeon.
Why would keeping the strategy that certain voters used to get reqs be valid motivation for voting weather OU when this is the last round of testing?I can honestly say that I'm not surprised at all how the voting results turned out. It's obvious people wouldn't vote out the strategy that got them all voting reqs in the first place, and from the direction OU has gone from the past rounds. Good luck OU. Gooooood luck.
I'm pretty sure in pokemon noms, nothing will be banned. I bet thundurus will get a majority only. *rolls eyes*
Even if that's the case, a +1/+1 Dragonite isnt going to be sweeping entire teams. If your opponent was smart, he'd always attack turn 1 to break Multiscale and after that... Dragonite is just an inferior Salamence in a metagame where Salamence isn't even much of a threat.LumDD usually plays as a lead to guarantee multiscale against anything bar fake out mienshao, but that argument was bad anyway b/c it can come in for free on a down even in sand.
I'm gonna call bs on this. So you'd have to run Sub/DD/Outrage (D-claw) and either Fire Punch/Earthquake or Roost. Either way you're losing out on something important. I really cant see how this is better than the Lum set tbh.badabing said:I'm going to assume you are so fast to write off subDD because you have never played it. If any set is getting multiple dances that would be the one and notice how I said last poke so skarm can't phaze. Let everything die and massive comeback sweep.
Yes and by running Roost you effectively lose a very very important coverage move. SR is common enough to be used as a viable arguement. Spinners are a poor countermeasure and if it needs that much support then i seriously doubt its brokenness. If it has even a spec of residual damage from any attack that its lefties couldn't heal it's basically Gen 4 nite again and gen 4 nite wasn't broken at all.badabing said:SR is the most reliable way to get a check on dnite but remember it has this handy move called Roost that heals 50%. You can easily just run it with Exca or LO Starmie which are pretty much unblockable as spinners in this meta. Or any spinner for that matter given the lack of viable ghosts... Even Magic Mirror... So honestly SR isn't a good argument against it either, since in pokemon you are allowed to support it with five other pokes on a team :D
What i was trying to say was that it cant run all of those sets at once and often, you'll know which set it is immediately. Wallbreaker Nite isnt broken. CB Nite isnt broken. And i highly doubt that any variant of DD Nite is broken. There are a plethora of checks and even counters to all its sets. It might be annoying but its not broken.badabing said:And my point about the wallbreaker still stands idk what you are saying. Ok i think i covered it. Any one else want to share their thoughts?
Here you go love.where can i find the results of the round?
Sounds like it applies to... just about everything. BAN EVERYTHING1. If you don't carry a counter or check for it you get screwed over.
Perish Song is an extremely viable move on Politoed / Celebi. Any Prankster Taunter can cause issues to Baton Pass (don't say Espeon, Taunt is outspeeding the Baton Pass). Dragon Tail / Circle Throw isn't getting stopped by Espeon and when the main Substitute passer of a lot of BP teams (or at least, the pokemon they start out with) is Ninjask, breaking the subs is by no means an issue. There's also Mold Breaker Taunt Haxorus, any Haze user, or even setting up alongside. You can also often just pound the opponent with strong attacks.2. The counters/checks for it are too obscure/unviable to run.
Page 2Espeon: 3 (Not counting more than an espeon mention on shofu's nom).
Magic Bounce:4
Noms for baton pass:4
Page 3:Espeon: 4
Magic Bounce: 1(but is on the same nom than one Espeon).
Noms for baton pass:8
Page 4:Espeon: 5
Magic Bounce: 1
Noms for baton pass:7
Final page:Espeon:Only 1 on a baton pass nom.
Magic bounce:1 but is heavily implied in another nom.
Noms for baton pass:5
Espeon:1 on the same than baton pass without mentioning something similar to a complex ban.
Magic bounce:0.
Noms for baton pass:2
Shock Wave vs Double TeamBaton pass team vs red card
who wins?
It's true that "If it's popular, it's broken" is a complete fallacy, but it's also irrelevant.Players complain about everything. If we gave in to whining on these threads we would be left with nothing but Little Cup.
However, your argument is wrong for one sole reason, popularity doesn't correlate with power or "broken-ness."
Hope this was just a hazy guess and not another argument starter.Maybe its because baton pass teams could stop weather teams.
I'm pretty sure tons of people would like to know how the move Baton Pass is even suspect.Hope this was just a hazy guess and not another argument starter.
But seriously now, how is BP broken?
Voting Results said:Sandstorm: 8 Ban, 60 Do Not Ban, 4 Abstain = 11.76% Ban
Drought: 23 Ban, 41 Do Not Ban, 8 Abstain = 35.93% Ban
Drizzle: 26 Ban, 40 Do Not Ban, 6 Abstain = 39.39% Ban
Snow Warning: 5 Ban, 67 Do Not Ban, 0 Abstain = 6.94% Ban
Baton Pass: 38 Ban, 24 Do Not Ban, 10 Abstain = 61.29% Ban
Baton Pass: 38 Ban, 24 Do Not Ban, 10 Abstain = 61.29% Ban
Baton Pass = 61.29% Ban