np: OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Sandstorm (Excadrill/Thundurus Banned)

[Mario With Lasers]

I do, cus hey, nifty ability. Xatu too, on occasion. Even if most people use it on a BP team, that doesn't change its possible use outside of it. ;)

Yes, Espeon is useful outside of BP teams, but its main use is stopping BP counters and being a terrifying recipient; if it weren't for that, it would rot in BL for a long while, or would still be UU. That's why I don't think this argument of "well Espeon isn't broken per se, it's fine outside of BP teams" holds much water as, well, Espeon is Baton Pass. There was a reason back in DPPt for Espeon being outclassed by Alakazam, and why Xatu has such a good ability and yet is bottom UU. It's because Magic Bounce made Espeon good, but Espeon also made Magic Bounce a killer ability; both have the tools needed to make a certain strategy much more difficult to be stopped, and for that reason Espeon's OU, and possibly broken. Espeon has the stats, the typing, the movepool, the ability. Espeon is good by its merits only.


I'm not going to dispute anything else you said because lol I'm not even sure Espeon is broken, so I can't say anything.

 

[Glen]

pokemon

i really like the way you think

Genny EDIT:
I agree with Glen

 

[Molk]

I've encountered a lot of Sableyes so far on PO, and I'm not impressed. Either people don't know how to use him, or he's just that bad. It seems like he avoids taking hits really well, but then rolls over and dies when something actually connects.

Sets that run substitute are especially bad, because it's pretty easy to predict the turn they'll use recover, so it's not hard to OHKO.

TBH if your using substitute on sableye, then your doing it wrong, why use sub when you could be burning physical sweepers, and taunting baton pass, if sableye is dying to weak hits, then you are also doing it wrong, invest specially defensive and use will-o-wisp on physical sweepers and he should work out. if you run physically defensive, YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG! sableye really needs to take special hits better cause no one in their right mind would leave their physical sweeper in against something that can burn it.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

The link doesn't work BTW. Tentacruel has haze, who knew, problem is almost anything that would be effected by haze, KOs it anyway.

 

[yaya0]

I don't see why any serious player would give Sableye physical bulk, WHEN IT HAS WoW!

 

[Mario With Lasers]

I don't see why any serious player would give Sableye physical bulk, WHEN IT HAS WoW!

When you have 50/75/65 defenses, you need all the help you can get. Only Wow to cushion physical moves won't be enough, specially if it's facing a booster.


And lol it doesn't learn Amnesia, I could swear it did...

 

[DetroitLolcat]

The link doesn't work BTW. Tentacruel has haze, who knew, problem is almost anything that would be effected by haze, KOs it anyway.

If you switch Tentacruel in on the first turn or provide it some Wish support, you can probably live an attack or two in order to Haze. Tenta has great Special bulk, and its Physical bulk can be made passable with full investment.

It only needs to live one attack in general, and the opponent will only have one turn to set up. Haze works through Substitute and Magic Bounce, and has 48 PP, so that won't be an issue. So I'm not sure if anything that would be affected by Haze would KO anyway.

 

[Pocket]

Unfortunately Haze and Rapid Spin are not compatible together. Otherwise Tentacruel would've been a great utility mon, spinning hazards, laying Toxic Spikes, and countering Volcarona, Toxicroak, Virizion, and Conkeldurr

 

[ginganinja]

I don't see why any serious player would give Sableye physical bulk, WHEN IT HAS WoW!

Prolly cos Jolly balloon Excadrill does 70.07% - 82.89%. And thats like the weakest Excadrill out there. Granted, Stableye does'nt do too well against Excadrill regardless but I can at least see the merit of running Physical Defense when if you don't, Adamant Excadrill has a chance at OHKOing you and thats without LO

 

[Jackos]

Seriously, what is up with the ridiculous flavor of the month that took over more than half the voters? The second baton pass is banned as a whole is the second we lose any respect as a competitive Pokemon community. This isn't even like the Blaziken ban where the haters were mostly mad because a cool pokemon got banned, this is eliminating a complete team archetype and a utility move over the sole reason of not wanting to deal with a strategy that was previously considered "noob" or "gimmicky".

At the very least we could try a complex ban on Magic Bounce/Shell Smash + baton pass if said tactics are so devastating.

 

[badabing]

Even if that's the case, a +1/+1 Dragonite isnt going to be sweeping entire teams. If your opponent was smart, he'd always attack turn 1 to break Multiscale and after that... Dragonite is just an inferior Salamence in a metagame where Salamence isn't even much of a threat.



I'm gonna call bs on this. So you'd have to run Sub/DD/Outrage (D-claw) and either Fire Punch/Earthquake or Roost. Either way you're losing out on something important. I really cant see how this is better than the Lum set tbh.


Yes and by running Roost you effectively lose a very very important coverage move. SR is common enough to be used as a viable arguement. Spinners are a poor countermeasure and if it needs that much support then i seriously doubt its brokenness. If it has even a spec of residual damage from any attack that its lefties couldn't heal it's basically Gen 4 nite again and gen 4 nite wasn't broken at all.



What i was trying to say was that it cant run all of those sets at once and often, you'll know which set it is immediately. Wallbreaker Nite isnt broken. CB Nite isnt broken. And i highly doubt that any variant of DD Nite is broken. There are a plethora of checks and even counters to all its sets. It might be annoying but its not broken.

Lol I started wondering if you have ever even played Gen 5 when I read the "Dragonite is just an inferior Salamence" bit.

I'm going to fill you in on the sets so you can have some idea of what you are talking about. SubDD runs DClaw and Roost @ lefties, the idea is to abuse MultiScale with Sub and Roost to accumulate several dragon dances. He doesn't need any coverage besides STAB mono-dragon in this case because anything he can't hit is going to be hard pressed to break Mulitscale subs as you just boost to +6. Just save him for last poke against steels that are capable of phazing, no problem.

You are overestimating the importance of coverage here. A standard set with Fire Punch, Roost, and whatever STAB is all you need if you're not running SubDD.

Actually fuck it, I don't have the energy, and on top of that I don't even feel the need to disprove your arguments when they are just outright uninformed and blatantly false. Hit the ladder bro and actually play the game you talk about so emphatically. You remind me of Thorhammer :justin2:

jk ilu

 

[xero_k]

Lol I started wondering if you have ever even played Gen 5 when I read the "Dragonite is just an inferior Salamence" bit.

I'm going to fill you in on the sets so you can have some idea of what you are talking about. SubDD runs DClaw and Roost @ lefties, the idea is to abuse MultiScale with Sub and Roost to accumulate several dragon dances. He doesn't need any coverage besides STAB mono-dragon in this case because anything he can't hit is going to be hard pressed to break Mulitscale subs as you just boost to +6. Just save him for last poke against steels that are capable of phazing, no problem.

You are overestimating the importance of coverage here. A standard set with Fire Punch, Roost, and whatever STAB is all you need if you're not running SubDD.

Actually fuck it, I don't have the energy, and on top of that I don't even feel the need to disprove your arguments when they are just outright uninformed and blatantly false. Hit the ladder bro and actually play the game you talk about so emphatically. You remind me of Thorhammer :justin2:

jk ilu

Those damned things can be a pain >_< That's why I brag about reli OHKOing them through MS... I'm glad I haven't had to deal with THAT set in its sweetspot though.

 

[NijaSkills]

Seriously, what is up with the ridiculous flavor of the month that took over more than half the voters? The second baton pass is banned as a whole is the second we lose any respect as a competitive Pokemon community. This isn't even like the Blaziken ban where the haters were mostly mad because a cool pokemon got banned, this is eliminating a complete team archetype and a utility move over the sole reason of not wanting to deal with a strategy that was previously considered "noob" or "gimmicky".

At the very least we could try a complex ban on Magic Bounce/Shell Smash + baton pass if said tactics are so devastating.

This. This so much. Also, sure, it's annoying to deal with full Baton Pass teams, but the move itself isn't broken, and you can use Haze to put a stop to full Baton Pass at any time. (Haze has SIGNIFICANTLY more distribution than Rapid Spin, which people still seem to find the ability to run). Or, another option, put Taunt on something weird, and catch them completely off guard.

 

[Meru]

Just curious, since this team archetype is apparently popular enough to be considered banworthy (>_>), what is the standard Baton Pass chain team?

My guess is Ninjask/Espeon/Celebi/Scizor/Zapdos/Vaporeon? With maybe Togekiss instead of Zapdos? Can't see Mew fitting in there since it adds a third Psychic type....

 

[KurashiDragon]

I'm sure Blaziken got a super-majority the first time it was voted on.

I know that. What I meant by the Blaziken Treatment is that it's being called broken prematurely. At least it only got a majority so it can be properly tested.

Do people even use Espeon outside of BP teams? I think not...

Well actually I wouldn't think that's true. There are plenty instances where Espeon would be useful on a team. For instance sometimes I enjoy Espeon being on a team with Dragonite to hopefully (I say that because team preview bites it in the ass) stop Stealth Rock from going up on my field.

However, that doesn't mean it's broken. Far from it. However, Magic Mirror/BP is borderline broken. However, this particular situation has alot of hypocritical problems in it. Espeon is literally the best of a bad situation to ban.

Are people really suggesting to ban multiple pokemon instead of a playstyle or a complex ban? (Gorebyss, Huntail, Smeargle, and Espeon) Ok if that actually happens I'm suggesting we remove the Aldaron Proposal and start simple banning the broken Swift Swim Pokemon. It's basically the same thing.

Honestly, this whole Baton Pass situation is horrible to Smogon's reputation.

 

[sirndpt]

Just curious, since this team archetype is apparently popular enough to be considered banworthy (>_>), what is the standard Baton Pass chain team?

My guess is Ninjask/Espeon/Celebi/Scizor/Zapdos/Vaporeon? With maybe Togekiss instead of Zapdos? Can't see Mew fitting in there since it adds a third Psychic type....

*raises hand* Ninjask / Mew / Mime / Vaporeon / Mawile / Espeon.

originally had a Lucario and then a Togekiss over Mime, but Espeon just destroyed things far too well on its own for them to be worth bothering with. ran this for a little while before the whole debate came up, quickly got bored of it (I tend to do that) but seriously, no one was more surprised than I how well this worked.

ETA couldn't stop thinking about this: I know team synergy seems like completely shit, but after a couple of boosts--which are surprisingly easy to get--it really doesn't matter. add Aqua Ring and quick Subs on just about everyone, grab some popcorn, and watch the ragequits. completely cheap and absolutely unbelievable.

while I'm sure it wouldn't have stood a chance against the superbly well-though-out-teams at the top of the ladder, it definitely decimates your average random team of 6 mons built quickly and mainly with maintaining the weather advantage/ countering Excadrill/Dragonite/Thundurus etc in mind. I'm not surprised at the knee-jerk reaction it's received: it's a huge threat that came out of nowhere, and it's not something you can play around or adapt to within the battle itself, like say Specs Jellicent or Dragon Dance Latios.

wow, this is getting long, but what I'd like to see is for it to be given some more time; let the metagame adapt to it and people develop all sorts of creative and weird and wonderful counters to it as they've always done. whether or not the structure of the procedures we've got here allows for that, though, I don't know.

 

[Raikaria]

At the same time though Espeon is not inherently broken, just the combination of BP+Magic Mirror. I can understand your argument and honostly I agree with you. By that same logic if we ban Baton Pass we're literally banning a playstyle which rips weather arguments a new one. But it's Espeon without a shadow of doubt is not broken. Only the combination of BP and Magic Mirror. We could complex ban but then we'd be hypocrites for Blaziken. We could ban Baton Pass but then we'd be hypocrites for not banning weather. We could ban Espeon but then we'd be hypocrites for banning something that's not inherently broken. In any situation we lose.

However, if I were to pick given your arguments influence then I'd have to agree with you. Espeon is the lesser of 3 evils.

My argument is that Espeon is inherently broken, because we've been in a situation where Baton Pass has been without MM+BP, yet, it was not even close to being broken at that time.

It dosen't matter if something is only broken in one team archtype, and not in others. Manaphy was only broken on Rain teams. Did that stop him getting banned with a Supermajority? This further adds to the logic that Espeon should be the one to get banned.

Banning BP+MM is just an attempt to keep Espeon in the metagame, and thus, is something which shouldn't even be discussed. Banning that combination is basically saying we may as well ban Blaziken + Speed Boost, or Darkrai + Dark Void, because Espeon is the only pokemon with that combination.

Banning Baton Pass outright is also foolish, as without Espeon, it's not broken. It's a good-at-best tactic. It's a thousand times easier to handle when you can WW/Roar it out, or Taunt. Espeon prevents that and spits it right back at the user.

The only logical argument is that Espeon is the one who should be banned. We already have the precident with Manaphy, when it comes to banning something only broken under one playstyle, so why not Espeon?

That said, Baton Pass has always received a fair bit of hate from competitive circles for being a 'noob' tactic.

To be frank, I don't think banning moves should even be on the table, unless it's Acupressure, Double Team, Smokescreen, Flash or Minimise.

---
I'd also love to hear the reasoning why some people thought Snow Warning is broken still... I see no logic behind that at all, unless people are afraid that Snow Cloak Froslass and Stallrein will dominate OU if Hail is the only weather.

Just curious, since this team archetype is apparently popular enough to be considered banworthy (>_>), what is the standard Baton Pass chain team?

Popularity has nothing to do with bans. Wobbuffett wasn't popular in Gen 4, but was banned. Deo-N hardly got any use at all, but was banned.

Although popularity of the checks to something, and the suspect itself can be an indicator, it is not always the fact that central forces are the only broken ones.

 

[sirndpt]

Popularity has nothing to do with bans. Wobbuffett wasn't popular in Gen 4, but was banned. Deo-N hardly got any use at all, but was banned.

Although popularity of the checks to something, and the suspect itself can be an indicator, it is not always the fact that central forces are the only broken ones.

i've heard this point brought up many times -- most especially defending the fact that Thundurus isn't even top 10 OU -- but I really, really don't get it. why not? if something's good to the point of being gamebreakingly overpowering, WHY isn't everyone using it? do they not want to win?

it's probably wrong to immediately conclude that it must therefore not be broken, but I honestly can't think of any other reason. thanks in advance for clarifying this.

 

[NoUserName]

I'm sure Blaziken got a super-majority the first time it was voted on.




Well, not everyone shares your views on the metagame.



Do people even use Espeon outside of BP teams? I think not...

It is not a reason,

Do people even use Mr. Mime outside of BP teams? I think not...

Do people even use Volbeat outside of BP TailGlow? I think not...

Do people even use Politoed without Drizzle? I think not...

Even, Espeon is useful(due to MB of course) outside baton pass chains. It is not required a RapidSpinner for Volcarona or x2/x4 weak to SR, it stops typical stalls, Double Screens, it can CM without fearing pseudo-haze...

 

[Rurushu]

I feel somewhat guilty for all the hate that baton pass has been receiving lately. I got reqs for 4 accounts using a cheap shellsmash pass team with little to no effort and i remember lots and lots of people being mad at me and saying things like "why don't you try to build a real team", "is there any merit in getting reqs with this shit?" and some of these people are voters, so this outcome was to be expected, considering how votes are now made based on preference rather than the "brokensess" of the suspect in question.

Baton Pass is unpopular and widely regarded an annoying and unskilled strategy whether it's used with shell smash or in a chain, but that's it, it's just annoying and unpopular, thus people aren't always prepared for it and that's why it's relatively effective; it's a bad strategy but people can't always afford to find space to properly counter such an underused kind of team so they end up losing to the few ones who dares to use this. Summing it up, baton pass based teams only quality lies in its unpopularity and if somehow it becomes popular then it will also instantly become incredibly shitty because it's easily counterable and people would be prepared for it.

On the other hand, things like Drought and Drizzle teams are a lot harder to counter, harder enough to revolve the entire metagame around it. It's harder to counter so it's also a popular strategy to use, thus it's also undoubtely taken into account by anyone willing to make a succesful team. Being popular, it's highly unlikely that a Drizzle user will catch someone off guard so you won't see the "damn i can't do anything against this shit" scenario that often happens with baton pass based teams.

Baton Pass wasn't almost banned because it's good, it was almost banned because it's bad, so people don't want to feel the need to prepare for something like that in a metagame that's already filled with "pick your weakness" cases.

 

[Lorenz]

So none of the auto weather abilities got banned? Who didn't see that coming.

 

[a fairy]

OK, if you think the voting system is flawed, you propose a new way to do it.

 

[Raikaria]

I think this is the point where we sit down and start discussing about a new voting system because we have crossed the line.
Freaking Baton Pass shouldn't have been nominated in the first place, let alone allowed to receive 60% of the votes.

With all due respect, I think the majority of the voters just want a metagame that works in their favor over a metagame that is actually varied and balanced.

On other servers I have faced plenty of Speed Boost Blazikens and Drizzle+SS teams, and while I have certainly lost against a few of them, not once did I think that it happened because they're genuinelly broken.

I wasn't even aware that people seriously thought that Deo-S was even remotely close to be broken, especially with Prankster users everywhere.

And now this. A generic support move that it can still be worked around in several ways and that is extremely easily to predict (if you see Espeon, Gorebyss, Huntail or Smeargle in team preview you KNOW what to expect).

Please do not wait for this move to actually get banned, act NOW.
This voting system is flawed and the more time it passes the more Smogon turns into a running joke in the competitive scene.

Let me guess, the metagame on those servers had things like Ferrothorn and, Slowbro, Gastrodon and Azumarill on every single team.

The metagame on other servers means nothing. It dosen't take two seconds to realise something was horribly wrong with Drizzle while Swift Swim was around [Hell, things are still wrong with it now!], and Blaziken probobly dosen't seem as broken when SS+Drizzle is allowed, so he can be revenge killed, now does it?

I do disagree with Baton Pass being the suspect, I think it should be Espeon. But that dosen't mean anyone was wrong about Blaziken or SS+Drizzle, and Smogon is far from a joke in the competitive scene... the thing that's hurting right now is the stat issues, and lack of teir movements due to that server crash.

And it certainly isn't an indicator of the voting system being bad. Especially when you proposed no alternative at all.

I feel somewhat guilty for all the hate that baton pass has been receiving lately. I got reqs for 4 accounts using a cheap shellsmash pass team with little to no effort and i remember lots and lots of people being mad at me and saying things like "why don't you try to build a real team", "is there any merit in getting reqs with this shit?" and some of these people are voters, so this outcome was to be expected, considering how votes are now made based on preference rather than the "brokensess" of the suspect in question.

Baton Pass is unpopular and widely regarded an annoying and unskilled strategy whether it's used with shell smash or in a chain, but that's it, it's just annoying and unpopular, thus people aren't always prepared for it and that's why it's relatively effective; it's a bad strategy but people can't always afford to find space to properly counter such an underused kind of team so they end up losing to the few ones who dares to use this. Summing it up, baton pass based teams only quality lies in its unpopularity and if somehow it becomes popular then it will also instantly become incredibly shitty because it's easily counterable and people would be prepared for it.

On the other hand, things like Drought and Drizzle teams are a lot harder to counter, harder enough to revolve the entire metagame around it. It's harder to counter so it's also a popular strategy to use, thus it's also undoubtely taken into account by anyone willing to make a succesful team. Being popular, it's highly unlikely that a Drizzle user will catch someone off guard so you won't see the "damn i can't do anything against this shit" scenario that often happens with baton pass based teams.

Baton Pass wasn't almost banned because it's good, it was almost banned because it's bad, so people don't want to feel the need to prepare for something like that in a metagame that's already filled with "pick your weakness" cases.

Baton Pass played by a good player right now is nigh uncounterable. You can't phase them because of Espeon, you can't taunt them because of Espeon, and, as ever Perish Song dosen't work because of Mr.Mime.

Haze is shaky at best due to them packing Taunt usually, not to mention a lack of viable users, and Dragon Tail can be seen a mile away, and results in them just attacking.

It's not impossible to counter, but it's certainly difficult. Played with skill, Baton Pass is exceptionally difficult to defeat unless you get Crits halfway through the chain. That's why it's being nominated.

Although... people not wanting to devote a teamslot to check BP kinda helps too. And weather is probobly the culprit for that... but, of course, Excadrill will remain OU, and Drizzle already is... so the vicious cycle continues.

 

[sirndpt]

Baton Pass played by a good player right now is nigh uncounterable. You can't phase them because of Espeon, you can't taunt them because of Espeon, and, as ever Perish Song dosen't work because of Mr.Mime.

Haze is shaky at best due to them packing Taunt usually, not to mention a lack of viable users, and Dragon Tail can be seen a mile away, and results in them just attacking.

It's not impossible to counter, but it's certainly difficult. Played with skill, Baton Pass is exceptionally difficult to defeat unless you get Crits halfway through the chain. That's why it's being nominated.

running Substitute, which I really think full pass teams should do on every mon, pretty much means you never have a problem with crits and Dragon Tail (as well as Outrage spam).

however, i don't really think having Taunt saves your BP chain from Haze. as long as you don't switch in on the Taunter--Mawile, Mr Mime, Mew and Gliscor are basically the only feasible Taunters you'll see-- you're pretty much guaranteed your Haze off as not even Magic Bounce stops it.

the achilles heel of a BP team I've found though is really before it's accumulated many boosts- once you get in a few defense and speed boosts it's gg. before that though, one misplay, especially Ninjask going down, is gg for you. actually, I found speed probably the most important part of the chain, so much so that I even considered running a backup speed boosting mon. after a few def boosts and when you can get the proper mon to eat the incoming attack, it more often than not fails to even break your Sub. so in a way, the loss of dedicated leads has actually made it easier for BP teams - last gen everyone came prepared with a way to take down Ninjask, while this gen people are more concerned with beating opposing weather starters etc.

 

[Rurushu]

words

And why there's not a single succesful bpchain user? No matter how you put it, a playstyle with which you automatically lose due to a bad team matchup isn't good, isn't effective, it's terrible and should never be used on a serious match. Yeah, every team has some issues with bad team matchup, but bpchains take it to a whole new level. And there's not such a thing as a "skilled bpchain user". Skill changes little to nothing in the outcome of a match where you are using a bpchain, you'll always follow a script with some gambling (read: coin flips) that can (and often will) cost you the game should you happen to lose them.

Again, such a playstyle isn't good, it's bad and annoying and that's why people are willing to ban it despite its obvious lack of uber qualities.