np: OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Sandstorm (Excadrill/Thundurus Banned)

[iDunno]

Wow is Baton Pass seriously simple majority? Are you people stupid or something? What if I wanted to use it for wish passing? What if I wanted to use it for purposes of scouting? It is not a 2 dimensional move...

Espeon is broken because it has Magic Mirror and the tools to use it. It should have been put up instead of BP.

 

[New World Order]

Wow is Baton Pass seriously banned? Are you people stupid or something? What if I wanted to use it for wish passing? What if I wanted to use it for purposes of scouting?

Espeon is broken because it has Magic Mirror and the tools to use it. That is why it should be banned instead of Baton Pass.

Baton Pass has a simple majority. That means it needs to recieve another majority this coming round to become Uber. I agree, Baton Pass the move is not broken. BP Chain and Smash Pass are the culprits.

 

[Gideon]

WTF IS THIS SH*T?

Seriously, just ban Espeon if MB+BP is such a problem. Banning Baton Pass itself isn't like banning Drizzle or Drought - it's literally eliminating a style of play altogether.

So for the love of Arceus, don't be a dipsh*t-on-a-bandwagon by voting to ban Baton Pass in its purest form!

So is baton passed banned or just automatically a suspect now?

I personally don't see the problems with baton pass. It's pretty easy to stop by using the brute force at the beginning. Team preview effs baton pass.

 

[Thatsjustpeachy]

Too much complaining over a small part of the metagame. Smashpass is very strong too which might be why it's banned as a whole. The only way to incorporate all of that is to ban bp as a whole. You can't just have no smash pass+no espeon in bp teams, just doesn't work. I completely agree the only way to make it fair is to ban baton pass entirely.

 

[iDunno]

Do you understand that "fair" is a subjective term? Nasty Plot BP Celebi is not broken. What if I want to use Nasty Plot BP Celebi? This (almost) ban takes banning to it's other extreme to the point where it just becomes arbitrary.

 

[TROP]

Too much complaining over a small part of the metagame. Smashpass is very strong too which might be why it's banned as a whole. The only way to incorporate all of that is to ban bp as a whole. You can't just have no smash pass+no espeon in bp teams, just doesn't work. I completely agree the only way to make it fair is to ban baton pass entirely.

If smashpass is one of the problems then why not ban Gorebyss,Huntail and/or Smeargle?.

 

[Avira]

Baton Pass has a simple majority. That means it needs to recieve another majority this coming round to become Uber.

It won't get another majority because Round 5 is the last round of OU suspecting.

 

[Pocket]

How is Dual Screen + SmashPass broken? I understand that Magic Bounce Espeon with a auto-OHKO move after a few boosts is quite over the top at times, but SmashPass? really? It's so predictable that it usually fails at passing whenever I face one. Stall out the Reflect / Light Screen turns, phaze Gorebyss out, etc.

 

[Thatsjustpeachy]

If smashpass is one of the problems then why not ban Gorebyss,Huntail and/or Smeargle?.

Because they can run other sets that would make them not broken. Some of which include shellsmash. Also shellsmash itself isnt broken, so gorebyss and huntail can run sweeper sets which would be unfair to just ban the pokes themselves. Easiest way to resolve this? Get rid of the BP move that makes it broken(I don't agree that it is completely broken but im assuming this is part of the reason why they want to ban BP as a whole)

 

[Mishra]

Well, looks like UU is the way to go.

If we had another suspect round, I would have suggested removing Aldron's proposal, and then make people decide how they want to proceed.

 

[Thorhammer]

Because they can run other sets that would make them not broken. Some of which include shellsmash. Also shellsmash itself isnt broken, so gorebyss and huntail can run sweeper sets which would be unfair to just ban the pokes themselves. Easiest way to resolve this? Get rid of the BP move that makes it broken(I don't agree that it is completely broken but im assuming this is part of the reason why they banned BP as a whole)

Barring extenuating circumstances, we ban Pokemon, not sets, especially when banning that set would limit other Pokemon needlessly.

 

[Pocket]

Because they can run other sets that would make them not broken. Some of which include shellsmash. Also shellsmash itself isnt broken, so gorebyss and huntail can run sweeper sets which would be unfair to just ban the pokes themselves. Easiest way to resolve this? Get rid of the BP move that makes it broken(I don't agree that it is completely broken but im assuming this is part of the reason why they want to ban BP as a whole)

Or we could ban Gorebyss, Huntail, Smeargle, Espeon for breaking Baton Pass, a move not broken on 30 other mons that can learn it.

 

[Thatsjustpeachy]

Barring extenuating circumstances, we ban Pokemon, not sets, especially when banning that set would limit other Pokemon needlessly.

I know, but BP is a special case. The vote would be limiting a set and i was just trying to show how it would be fair to baton pass learning pokes instead of just outright banning like 5 pokes because they can baton pass when you can use other movesets that are totally not broken. I dont see anything wrong with banning the move as whole instead of banning multiple pokes for their part in the baton/smash pass chain

 

[iDunno]

The reason why Gorebyss and Huntail and Smeargle are broken is because they are able to set up a condition where their team-mates can easily sweep.

OR the reason why the move combination of Shell Smash and Baton pass is broken is because it gives otherwise useless pokemon a niche in the metagame just because of its sheer power. And it sets up a condition where the user's team mates can easily sweep.

The reason why Espeon is broken is because it provides a mode of support that is almost a complete stop to any attempts of the opponent to shut down the style of play that it is supporting.

Inconsistant was banned because it is an ability that is inherently luck based and uncompetitive.

Baton Pass is not inherently overpowering nor is it uncompetitive on its own merits.

Mean Look + Perish Song was banned gen 2 - just saying.

Also, it is possible that Espeon might not be broken if Shell Smash + Baton Pass were banned.

 

[Avira]

Or we could ban Gorebyss, Huntail, Smeargle, Espeon for breaking Baton Pass, a move not broken on 30 other mons that can learn it.

Or ban Espeon and the move Shell Smash. People either want to ban BP because of Espeon or Shell Smash, so ban that one Pokemon and the other move. I just think banning Shell Smash is better than banning Gorebyss, etc. I don't think it (Smashpassing) is broken though. Espeon on BP chains is what really pushes Baton Pass over the edge IMO.

 

[Pocket]

That's a good point, Malvira, but honestly the four mons I listed are primarily used for Baton Passing boosts, so banning those mons would do the same thing.

I'd rather keep Shell Smash, since arguably mons like Omastar, Carracosta, Crustle and Cloyster would be nerfed for no reason.

 

[Thatsjustpeachy]

Or ban Espeon and the move Shell Smash. People either want to ban BP because of Espeon or Shell Smash, so ban that one Pokemon and the other move.

The pokemon itself isnt broken, neither is the move shell smash, only when it is passed to a gyarados or something of the sort, then it becomes a bit broken. So banning the move would make the most sense in this case. Imo, it is the bp part of this that makes it broken. Its all in a matter of opinion on what part you consider broken in smash pass. Also making an espeon ban seperately is a bit more complicated. Does espeon only become broken when its all out baton pass? Can you do 2 baton pass pokes plus espeon? What about Shell smash pass with espeon as the screener? Alot of complications arise.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

Baton Pass got the Blaziken treatment in that it made majority on the first round it was tested but at least it's not banned so we can see what the problem is and fix it. This is one of the few instances where I believe a complex ban is in order. Magic Bounce / Baton Pass makes more sense then (as the anti-weather banners put it) killing a playstyle.

I'm sure Blaziken got a super-majority the first time it was voted on.

Anyone who seriously thinks that Snow Warning is broken shouldn't have had voting rights. End of.

Sometimes, I wonder if half the voters are those who are using Drizzle to power up the ladder, so won't vote for it to go. While it's probobly a far lesser amount than half, it's at least contributeing.

Well, not everyone shares your views on the metagame.

But it's Espeon without a shadow of doubt is not broken. Only the combination of BP and Magic Mirror. We could complex ban but then we'd be hypocrites for Blaziken. We could ban Baton Pass but then we'd be hypocrites for not banning weather. We could ban Espeon but then we'd be hypocrites for banning something that's not inherently broken. In any situation we lose.

However, if I were to pick given your arguments influence then I'd have to agree with you. Espeon is the lesser of 3 evils.

Do people even use Espeon outside of BP teams? I think not...

 

[Deaga]

Wow is Baton Pass seriously simple majority? Are you people stupid or something? What if I wanted to use it for wish passing? What if I wanted to use it for purposes of scouting? It is not a 2 dimensional move...

What if I wanted to use Confusion / Swift / Mist / Shock Wave Mewtwo?

I'm pretty sure they're voting for Baton Pass on the grounds that they think SmashPassing is broken and/or BP Chains are fucking annoying, not against Baton Pass itself... But only Baton Pass itself is "vote"-able, so the voters have to make do with that.

 

[iDunno]

What if I wanted to use Confusion / Swift / Mist / Shock Wave Mewtwo?

This comparison doesn't hold water because Mewtwo is, itself, inherently broken due to its given stats and movepool.

Baton Pass is not inherently broken because it does not make the majority of the pokemon it is distributed to overly powerful. It is only made overly powerful when paired with the move Shell Break.

 

[Danger Mouse]

why dont people just lead with sableye if they have one when they see a baton pass team? taunt stops setup, and it owns espeon being immune to bp espeons usual attacks. I use sableye and it pretty much hard counters baton pass if you play it right.

I've encountered a lot of Sableyes so far on PO, and I'm not impressed. Either people don't know how to use him, or he's just that bad. It seems like he avoids taking hits really well, but then rolls over and dies when something actually connects.

Sets that run substitute are especially bad, because it's pretty easy to predict the turn they'll use recover, so it's not hard to OHKO.

 

[yaya0]

This comparison doesn't hold water because Mewtwo is, itself, inherently broken due to its given stats and movepool.

Baton Pass is not inherently broken because it does not make the majority of the pokemon it is distributed to overly powerful. It is only made overly powerful when paired with the move Shell Break.

Remember what happened with BP chains in gen 3?

 

[xero_k]

Not as odd as you think; that proposal already seems to be gaining a ton of support here.

Anyone else in favor of consideration of a Magic Bounce + Baton Pass ban, at least as a preferred option to the existing considerations of a full Baton Pass ban? I want to see how much support we can get here.

I am. Even if I'm not some prestigious member, I'd rather ban some simple combination (if it's broken at all... as opposed to, you know, a successful strategy that CAN be stopped) than ban a poke who finally got something nice. So what if Espeon is the only pokemon who currently gets the combo? That combo isn't even OP on it's own. Espeon is only useful (or "broken") in the way you're (as in, the people who are saying this) stating if it's in the middle of a successful chain; on top of that, if it doesn't have defense boosts pass to it, how hard is it to KO it? If the opponent can predict when you're gonna pull a status move, you should have an easy time predicting the BP to Espeon... and getting a free hit on it.
See, Espeon is the only poke who can do that, so you should know very well when it's showing its face, otherwise it's just a mispredict on your part. Boosting pokes are common enough to consider counters. If those counters are countered, you figure out a way around it. If those aren't present, or are very limited, then... THEN something is truly broken.

BP teams are vulnerable until they get a chain of boosts, and the Stored Power needs that power stored up (lol). What sets ALL of those to zero? Haze. Then they restart, perhaps from an unfavorable position. Many pokes common on BP teams are fairly frail on their own... see where that goes? Get even ONE taunt off, and it's a bad day for that team, because losing any member may be important boosts that their team no longer has. It's a DIFFERENT tactic from stall or varying offences. It has risks, weaknesses, and advantages...
Someone making a BP team has to make these considerations, and they are a bit more limited on options than some. Espeon is a useful poke that effectively counters many, but not all of the counters to BP. If you have those options, but insist on not using them in the favor of techniques which are failing, that seems like a bad reason to ban ANY of this.
It isn't like there are only one or two counters, it isn't like hax is being exploited, and it isn't like most BP teams have the likes of Lucario, Tyranitar, Ferrothorn, or even Dragonite. Most if not all of the pokes NEED boosts to be threatening.

Just a bit of a side note, Murkrow gets Prankster and Haze. Not expecting people to use it, but Taunt and Haze could put a quick stop to any chain.

Do people even use Espeon outside of BP teams? I think not...

I do, cus hey, nifty ability. Xatu too, on occasion. Even if most people use it on a BP team, that doesn't change its possible use outside of it. ;)

 

[DetroitLolcat]

What if I wanted to use Confusion / Swift / Mist / Shock Wave Mewtwo?

Then you're bad at Pokemon. Just because people don't know how to use a Pokemon, doesn't mean it's not broken. Though that set DOES counter Baton Pass...

Also, yeah. Anyone who voted Snow Warning Uber should probably never vote again.

Also, for the sake of argument, I would like to post a list of all Pokemon that fully and undoubtedly counter Baton Pass:

Absol
Altaria
Azumarill
Celebi
Dewgong
Gengar
Honchkrow
Jynx
Kricketune
Lapras
Marowak
(when released) Meloetta
Mismagius
Murkrow
Politoed
Wigglytuff
Arbok
Blastoise
Chandelure
Cofagrigus
Crobat
Cryogonal
Dodrio
Dragonite
Drifblim
Garbodor
Kingler
Mantine
Masquerain
Milotic
Muk
Omastar
Octillery
Poliwrath
Quagsire
Qwilfish
Seaking
Seviper
Skuntank
Tentacruel
Vaporeon
Xatu.

Take out all the RU Trash and you get



Azumarill
Celebi
Gengar
(when released) Meloetta
Mismagius
Politoed
Chandelure
Crobat
Dragonite
Milotic
Quagsire
Tentacruel
Vaporeon
Xatu

All of these Pokemon can learn Haze, Perish Song, or both. That's one move. If you say that Baton Pass is broken because it forces you to use a move that nobody would ever use, tough shit. Adjusting 1/24 of your team to provide a full stop to a playstyle isn't overcentralizing, it isn't overcontrolling the metagame, it isn't over-anything. If you have a Politoed, maybe run Perish Song over Toxic or Protect. Is that going to kill you? NO! Maybe run Haze over Toxic on your Quagsire! Maybe run Haze over Roar on your damn Vaporeon (though Roar works well too...)!

Even without those two auto-win moves, there are other fucking ways to beat Baton Pass. Overpower it. Use Choice Band Haxorus. That will probably kill two Pokemon as it is. I don't think anything BP has is liking Specs Meteor from Latios. Taunt+DD Haxorus probably slays Baton Pass anyway. If you're running a stall team and you lose to BP, well guess what? Your team is weak to BP! So tweak your team! Stall has no more right to exist in this metagame than Baton Pass does!

Voters: If you voted "ban" on Baton Pass because it was "cheap" or "gay", please post in this thread that you are sorry for forgetting Smogon's Philosophy and promise you'll never make the same mistake again. If you voted it broken because of "uncompetitiveness", please apologize for forgetting Smogon's Philosophy and promise you'll never make the same mistake again. If you banned it for "overcentralization", then, well, there isn't much hope for Suspect Testing, so it's a good idea that Suspect Testing is going away.

If you banned it because it was legitimately broken, then, well, I disagree!

Also, have non-Pokemon bans become the standard? If you think SmashPass is broken, then ban Gorebyss, Huntail, and Smeargle. They're broken (if you think SP is broken), so shouldn't they be banned? Why fault Baton Pass as a whole, which isn't remotely broken?


EDIT: Wow I fail at BB Code -__-

 

[yaya0]

Adjusting 1/24 of your team to provide a full stop to a playstyle isn't overcentralizing, it isn't overcontrolling the metagame, it isn't over-anything[/b].

My new sig.