np: OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Sandstorm (Excadrill/Thundurus Banned)

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BP + Espeon is just anti-strategic/no brain, call it what you want but this thing is just too broken and you can only rely on crits to break it.

Now, does somebody know when the results are gonna be released ?

Cause the previous one tooked two days and we are already at 5 days, so i was just wonderring^^
 
BP + Espeon is just anti-strategic/no brain, call it what you want but this thing is just too broken and you can only rely on crits to break it.

Now, does somebody know when the results are gonna be released ?

Cause the previous one tooked two days and we are already at 5 days, so i was just wonderring^^

It relies on prediction so its not no brain or anti strategic
 
Why are we so hasty in removing a significant portion of this game? Auto-weathers, Baton Pass, Snow Cloak / Sand Veil... wow.

Last round of this, before....well, I am not sure how future suspects are banned or unbanned after this round.

But auto-weather has been largely scrutinized, and is hugely subjective, (drizzle more than others).

Is there a way to find out how close things are to being voted, or does a mod have to drop the news?
 
There's a reason why we've been using the "blind vote" technique for the suspect process and it's because we don't want our voters to influence each other. Just wait that the voting period ends and you'll get the results.
 
I'd say Baton Pass+Espeon is the superior choice (lesser of two evils, though), as Baton Pass+Xatu is not broken in the least.
Xatu doesn't use Baton Pass.

There's no restriction to rule out Baton Pass + Magic Bounce, a Move + Ability ban, but that hasn't stopped the people in charge from throwing out any other complex ban nominated with no policy to support that reasoning.

You know what occurred to me just now, that I think should be a requirement for making a nomination? Starting a discussion about the nomination beforehand in the relevant official suspect testing thread (like this one) or participating intelligently in such a discussion, then linking to those posts as proof when making the nomination, for each nomination made. So someone who wanted to nominate like ten Pokemon like that one guy would have to link to ten instances of him discussing each of them here beforehand to demonstrate that actual thought and consideration had been put into the nomination, not only in a vacuum, but in regards to other peoples' own views.

Edit: I suddenly realize the irony of making a suggestion like this off the top of my head. Good thing it's the official suspect testing thread, eh?
 
But what exactly does that do, thorn? People have already brought up discussion on pokemon or factors they believed were suspect worthy in the past, and intelligent discussion was not had. Look back at when a certain user brought up ferrothorn, or rotom-W. Or when another certain user once believed that Lugia would be good for the OU metagame. Or when another user thought that tyranitar might be broken.

The fact is, if the nominations are ridiculous, then the users here may not see eye to eye anyway. Sure, people can try to bring up their reasoning in this thread, but it doesn't mean that anyone or everyone will agree (as we've seen in the past).

As far as I'm concerned, I treat the nominations of posters who have made voting reqs and posters who did not make voting reqs as one and the same. The people who didn't make reqs can still know what they're talking about, while actually hitting the 1400 mark does not mean that you are suddenly knowledgeable about pokemon or how to make a balanced metagame.

Now, I want absolutely none of the voters to take any offense to this, but making voting reqs doesn't mean that somebody is very good at pokemon either. At the end of the day, all it means is that you play more than others. Not to say that the voters are bad players, just that the ladder isn't exactly the best way to show who is skilled and who isn't. If you play for 2-3 hours a day and you aren't the worst player of all time, then you'll hit the 1400 mark eventually.
 
Haze...? I know it isn't everyone's WW, DT or Roar, but it's workable and not reflected by magic mirror (name preference). Anything with prankster and decent speed will also tear BP a new one, and while those are fairly specific, Prankster isn't exactly too much in OU, considering a few common pokes get it (Thunderous and Whim, mainly). The whole Taunt hitting through Subs is workable too. BPing to Espeon has the simple issue of needing to use a move, or lose any boosts, and prankster especially ruins that. With Volbeat, Idk how that will go, but they'd need it out constantly in order to counter its own ability, or else their team is screwed. If you let the team start up, then yeah, you're fairly screwed. However, BP teams aren't the sort of things that take losses well; each poke you take down weakens the chain to a varying degree. Also, drawing out the main threats right away (in this case, Espeon) before they get power is a big help. If they want to stop SR setup on the first turn for example, Espeon has to either be out, or switched to. Pick an obvious enough SR user, and Espeon can be hit hard early.
There may be some flaws in my logic, but as some people have stated, outside that one instance, Espeon isn't a major threat, MM or not. Espeon's actually one of the pokes who actually got something worthwhile from the DW, unlike, say, its Dark-typed brother. I'd personally hate to see that go, but personal opinions asside, if it's only an issue in something as isolated as a BP team, then remove it from that situation. SSwim was only broken on a drizzle team, and it was removed from that niche. In that case, a SSwim pokemon can still exploit an opponent's Drizzle, something that wouldn't be the case if MM was removed from BP. I understand the avoidance of complex bans, but I think a lot of us would rather have that than see Espeon AND Xatu lose MM (their main reason for being useful), lose BP altogether, or see Espeon thrown in Ubers (cringe). Simplicity can be useful and far easier to manage, but this case, like the SSwim/ Drizzle ban, would cost a bit too much unnecessarily. Every Gen will add more pokemon, more abilities, and more moves, so logically speaking, this process will never get easier, and the higher complexities will make it a lot harder to avoid complex bans in the future unless, say you want to see a ton of underpowered pokes in Ubers because we didn't feel like dealing with them in a more complex (and at the same time, simpler) manner. Results of this ban? The BP teams get a little stab... they lose what a lot of people are considering OP and voila. BP can still be used, Espeon and Xatu still have their niche, and not using BP on the same team as Espeon (or MM, Xatu probably wouldn't be used anyway) would only take out a few alternate options (like Espeon using BP).
 
Haze definitely works, but the thing about Haze is that it's kind of comparable to something like Aura Sphere countering Moody Evasion boosting imo. it's not the most useless move ever (coughahemrapidspincough) in fact it's perfectly feasible and has uses outside of countering BP teams, but it's limited to such a handful of mons that it's just too unreasonable to expect every team to carry such a counter or lose.

then again, as many other posters have pointed out, it's not like BP teams are absolutely everywhere in the metagame - even without running any specialized counter to BP you can expect to win (well, not-autolose, at least) a good portion of your games. I'm personally torn.
 
While I haven't been checking in on the discussion, I have one thing to post that basically says "Thundurus stays OU" and it is this:

Code:
+ ---- + --------------- + ------ + ------- +  
 | Rank | Pokemon         | Usage  | Percent |  
 + ---- + --------------- + ------ + ------- +  
 | 1    | Scizor          | 59655  | 23.334% | 
 | 2    | Tyranitar       | 57563  | 22.515% | 
 | 3    | Rotom-W         | 56906  | 22.258% | 
 | 4    | Ferrothorn      | 49546  | 19.380% | 
 | 5    | Dragonite       | 48845  | 19.105% | 
 | 6    | Gliscor         | 47337  | 18.516% | 
 | 7    | Politoed        | 43860  | 17.156% | 
 | 8    | Heatran         | 41843  | 16.367% | 
 | 9    | Excadrill       | 38156  | 14.925% | 
 | 10   | Jirachi         | 37558  | 14.691% | 
 | 11   | Latios          | 34889  | 13.647% | 
 | 12   | Skarmory        | 33419  | 13.072% | 
[B] | 13   | Thundurus       | 28956  | 11.326% | [/B]
 | 14   | Reuniclus       | 27176  | 10.630% | 
 | 15   | Haxorus         | 24132  |  9.439% |

Nothing looks like it really needs a ban here. The top three are all roughly equal in usage. What I'm really worried about is that 8 of the top 12 are immune to sandstorm damage.
 
The only ban worthy part of Baton Pass is Espeon, and not even Espeon by itself. I hate complex bans but if people truly think Baton Pass is unbearable, then a complex ban of Baton Pass+Espeon or Baton Pass+Magic Bounce should do the trick imo.

I disagree. I think it would be better to limit like more than 2 BP(for example) with Espeon MB(or with MB which is the same), because MB BP Espeon by no means is broken out of BP Chains.


Another argument about Thundurus, Can I remember what was the usage of Wobbuffet in 4th gen? Or in the 5th?(Someone said is used less than Pikachu, he said it on March and I have never seen a Pikachu on BW)
 
There you have it folks, weather is completely safe but BP go 50%+ so that means it is auto-suspect next round!

Rather happy that everyone voted to keep weather around, that was a good move on their parts.
 
You know, it's real funny how people are wanting to ban things all of a sudden just because those things got some improvement.
E.g.
Dragonite got Multiscale
BP got MB Espeon (and to a much lesser extent, MB Xatu)

Just saying.
 
There you have it folks, weather is completely safe but BP go 50%+ so that means it is auto-suspect next round!

Rather happy that everyone voted to keep weather around, that was a good move on their parts.

What type of ban BP was voted of?

I would to say, ban the move like Double Team, on in Espeon or what?
 
Ninety percent of the nominations for Baton Pass (exclusive and not including shell/smash passing) had mention of Espeon, which would have been a better suspect than the move itself in my opinion.
 
I felt magic bounce espeon on bp teams was the only problem in dealing with BP but they didnt have that option. I wanted smash pass to still be around but I guess banning bp overall is better than letting it stay in my opinion. Not a great solution indeed.
 
Ah I pretty much expected it to be alot like that. XD they should make it so that if something recieves a minority like Sandstream and Snow Warning, it's automatically excluded from the next round of testing. That would actually make sense.

The population is pretty much divided on Drizzle and Drought. Everyone knows this XD. They both stay for another round.

Baton Pass got the Blaziken treatment in that it made majority on the first round it was tested but at least it's not banned so we can see what the problem is and fix it. This is one of the few instances where I believe a complex ban is in order. Magic Bounce / Baton Pass makes more sense then (as the anti-weather banners put it) killing a playstyle.
 
Volbeat just might be the push baton pass needed to be broken. I've been abusing a simple Dual screen Tail glow baton pass with Volbeat and 4 random sweepers (tr reuni, yanmega, infernape, and rd kingdra). I can't believe it, but the team is actually rather...good. Encore is so good on volbeat for that free set up turn and Dual screens lets it set up +6 on Scizor (I'm using max max bold). Has anyone else been using volbeat?
 
Welp, the ability results are in...

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I'm shocked Hail... I mean Snow Warning got any votes whatsoever. Anyone who seriously thinks that Snow Warning is broken shouldn't have had voting rights. End of. Side note, I'm the one who brought the error to Jabba's attention. Otherwise, we'd all be in the laughable position of possibly banning the move Hail...
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Baton Pass got a simple majority... probobly means everyone's gonna be using it, or it's very few checks, next round. Inb4 Snatch and Psych Up become common.

Actually... Psyche Up could be a very good BP check... Psyche Up Mew anyone? Pretty sure it can beat the standard BP Espeon quite easily.

Although, there's still the issue of Screens.

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As for Drizzle... well, you only have to look at the recent stats. Tyranitar is pulling even further away from Excadrill, meaning he's more and more a rain/sun/Latios check [He's not being used for much else with Conkeldurr and freinds around].

Then there's Rotom-W who does a number in and to rain.

Then there's Ferro at 4.

All of these having over 20% useage, and all of them being able to hinder rain.

Yet we still get stuff like Gastrodon being used more than Hydreigion, Salamence, and Espeon. And people still think with 3 of the top 4, all with 20%+ checking rain, and something as awful as Gastrodon at #30, with over 7% useage... that rain is balanced.

I seriously can't belive that. All you need to do is see that practically every team has to run at least one Rain check to realise how bad it is...

Not to mention almost as many people voted for Drought as Drizzle...

Sometimes, I wonder if half the voters are those who are using Drizzle to power up the ladder, so won't vote for it to go. While it's probobly a far lesser amount than half, it's at least contributeing.

Hopefully, Uni-workload permitting, I can get voting reqs in Round 6. That said, I say that every round, and then something comes up <_<. Drizzle, in my opinion, has had too many bailouts, and is still too powerful and centralising.

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On the other hand, I'm happy Sad and Sun have stayed. Sun can't really be decided until Drizzle is gone, and Sand Stream isn't broken, full stop.

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Hopeing Thunderus gets the boot, as well as, hopefully, Excadrill [That'll be one centralising force gone, and then everyone will realise just how bad Excadrill was for diversity, and how bad Drizzle is without Exadrill around...].

I'll be shocked if anything else gets the boot. Dragonite is easy to handle, it's called Stealth Rock, and you have yourself an inferior Mence. Deo-S isn't that such of an issue, Ferrothorn can lay hazards almost as well... LumNite is a joke, to be honest, because you lose Leftovers, so if there's SR, Sand, or they just scratch you with a x4 resisted attack on the switch... you're gonna need to Roost. My CM Celebi beats Lum Nites... it hits with Giga Drain on the switch, then uses HP Ice. Lefties Nites would heal off the damage.. SR permitting.

And Volcarona going to Ubers is absurd, he's only remotely broken with spin support and Drought backing him up.
 
I used to think the idea of banning Baton Pass was absurd. I used to think Magic Bounce was the real problem.

And then I fought someone who led with a dual screen Deo-S and used a Smashpass Gorebyss with a White Herb.

Personally, I don't see why Volcarona should be banned. It's not broken in the slightest. Sure, it has great stats, but Volcarona is to Rapid Spin support as an alcoholic is to booze.
 
I used to think the idea of banning Baton Pass was absurd. I used to think Magic Bounce was the real problem.

And then I fought someone who led with a dual screen Deo-S and used a Smashpass Gorebyss with a White Herb.

Personally, I don't see why Volcarona should be banned. It's not broken in the slightest. Sure, it has great stats, but Volcarona is to Rapid Spin support as an alcoholic is to booze.

Heeey, are you the same Missingno. Master from the Gamefaqs boards? I saw you had a similar post about smashpass gorebyss over there too. :)

Anyway, on topic...I'm glad that weather stays. I don't see any of them being broken. As for baton pass...ugh, it's a real pain to deal with, I wouldn't mind if it were gone. I guess we'll just have to see where the chips fall...
 
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