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np: UU Stage 3 - We Are The Champions
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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As I said, he is semi-reliable but not a full out counter. 3HKO matters because: if you use Pursuit then he can win with Grass Knot (switch into Grass Knot, Grass Knot again, Pursuit (Focus Sash broken), Grass Knot again dead). If you use Sucker Punch you lose. If you use Shadow Sneak he can just switch out. He automatically gets to survive one attack.
LMK said:
No they don't. Chandelure can come in, Substitute and see what move you opt for, if it's Sucker Punch it just waits. If it's Pursuit, OHKO with Fire Blast.
Victini can still OHKO you at -1 Speed......but I guess it's a 50/50 game at this point.
It's just not bulky enough, powerful enough, or strong enough from what I've seen and what the calculations say.
Hey, fair enough. I'm always reading about Pokemon X doesnt have any checks so I tried something unorthodox. We disagree on the viability. I see where you are coming from and don't disagree with the numbers. From playtesting I've added Tomb to my list of options and wanted to make others aware if they are looking for something to try out.
EDIT: I never did play around with his EV's to see if I could have just enough attack to KO key threats and have the bulk to have better switch in options. What is the standard damage calculator that people use. Is it the excel spreadsheet one?
I agree that SubLo Zam is the best set and I also agree with everything you say. My post was more directed at Heysup's dismissal of Spiritomb with the argument that Zam can encore sucker punch and hit with encore. In reality it is unrealistic for Zam to be carrying one if either of those moves.
On another note the usage stats will be very interesting this month and I am psyched to see who will hold the top ten with so many viable pokemon. Out of curiosity what mew set do you run?
All three of those are done in by Psychic and/or Focus Blast. I'm surprised you didn't mention Milotic, who used to counter him in Gen 4. But again, one player of Spikes and she isn't going to help you.
Like I said before LO is usually a better option. You get a free attack that you shouldn't survive, but then you miss KOs on left and right and are much more reliant on team support to do damage. You can use it on teams that are weak to that Weavile or Stoutland, but I don't have to put those at risk at all when switching to a special tank gives me all of the information I need on which Alakazam I'm facing.
Psyshock is a really sad move on Zam. It does very little damage to physically bulky Pokemon and doesn't have that Sp. Def drop to bail you out in rough situations. You can't hurt Suicune, Cobalion, Psychics, or really anything in UU that uses Calm Mind effectively besides maybe Raikou and Chandelure. You're better off forgetting about it and running Psychic.
What kind of joker do take me for
I just tried using a sand storm team and it is awesome.
Hippowdon can easily set up rocks and heal off damage with slack off. Might switch this to stone edge though, so I can hit air. Seeing as hippowdon might not get the chance to slack off.
Stoutland is a beast. A BEAST. This thing can mow down pretty much anything that gets in it's way. I love it.
Hone claws Aerodactyl is really good. He's helped me win so many battles.
Hippowdon can easily set up rocks and heal off damage with slack off. Might switch this to stone edge though, so I can hit air. Seeing as hippowdon might not get the chance to slack off.
Stoutland is a beast. A BEAST. This thing can mow down pretty much anything that gets in it's way. I love it.
Hone claws Aerodactyl is really good. He's helped me win so many battles.
Yea i must say sand is incredibly easy to abuse. Take cb stoutland, tack on a defensive core of hippo + spikes rade + bulky water, then a spinblocker (i've been using defensive chandy just for kicks), and throw in whatever filler and you're good to go. Most teams can't handle stoutland's cb frustration in tandem with layers and it's a really consistent strategy for the ladder imo. On top of that hail usage has been falling since stage 3 began so you rarely have to deal with weather wars. I used to think sand was so good because it was more unexpected and antimetagame in earlier rounds, but now it's old news and still bulldozes through the ladder with minimal effort...
If you're running offense, you might want to try Sash Alakazam or pack some priority a la technitop so you can keep up when the ladder gets inevitably spammed by these cookie cutter sand teams.
edit@below: Lum is a good idea on stoutland, bluffs choice to lure ghosts and obvi saves you from status, but I think he really needs cb to buff up that mediocre atk with mediocre coverage. You need to be adept at predicting though. Also, go on the rmt forum or #ratemyteam if you want some help on that, this isn't the place. For starters, you seem to lack a good switchin for a standard bulky water with Scald / Ice Beam / Toxic so try spikes roserade which should be on every sand team imo.
If you're running offense, you might want to try Sash Alakazam or pack some priority a la technitop so you can keep up when the ladder gets inevitably spammed by these cookie cutter sand teams.
edit@below: Lum is a good idea on stoutland, bluffs choice to lure ghosts and obvi saves you from status, but I think he really needs cb to buff up that mediocre atk with mediocre coverage. You need to be adept at predicting though. Also, go on the rmt forum or #ratemyteam if you want some help on that, this isn't the place. For starters, you seem to lack a good switchin for a standard bulky water with Scald / Ice Beam / Toxic so try spikes roserade which should be on every sand team imo.
I run a slowbro, tangrowth, aerodactyl, hippowdon, stoutland, and nidoking. Thinking of changing tangrowth to sawsbuck for speed. Same with nidoking. Nidoking could be replaced by sand veil sandslash to rapid spin.
I run stoutland with lum berry. Since burn is the last thing I want on him....But I'll consider CB.
But what do you guys think? Should tangrowth be replaced by sawsbuck?
I run stoutland with lum berry. Since burn is the last thing I want on him....But I'll consider CB.
But what do you guys think? Should tangrowth be replaced by sawsbuck?
It still confuses me how sand all of a sudden took off. Layers + CBLand (Why are people not using LO?) is nothing new. Goutlurk has been discovered. Roserade has been one of the most solid pokemon in UU. Suicune/empoleon have always been fantastic water types in the tier. Sandstall got a boost with hippowdon coming down but if you just wanted to pummel someone with sandstream up that could have been done all along. MGZam is a nice toy for sand offense but get the team to ~70% and just bring out stoutland. I just hope that people dont start crying that sand has somehow become overrated overpowered.
On the flip side, I don't want the decline of hail to be an indication that frosslass abuse is somehow gone. A broken situation may be occurring less frequently but that doesnt change the fact that something should be done so that the broken situation can never occur.
On the flip side, I don't want the decline of hail to be an indication that frosslass abuse is somehow gone. A broken situation may be occurring less frequently but that doesnt change the fact that something should be done so that the broken situation can never occur.
Sandstorms raise in usage should be no surprise as hippo is far superior to its pre evolution. Thus a slot isn't wasted by the space that is baby hippo that can't accomplish much.
In regards to hail, I am pretty sure this has already been discussed but frosslass abuse is not only decreasing because of decrease of hail but also greatly decreasing because of the introduction of the drop downs. Darma and Chandlure are solid checks while I believe I can call Machamp a counter. Thus with the introduction of counters and checks the strategy becomes significantly less broken, if broken at all.
What is hippowdon doing so much better than baby Hip in regards to sand offense? All stoutland needs is SS+Hazards. I had a sand offense team Pre-drops which worked well. Baby hip gets SR up just fine (and was surprisingly bulky), roserade gets you the spikes, then go to town with Stoutlurk. None of that has changed in regards to sand offense.
Darm and Chandelure both have a 20% chance to miss, same as always. They miss once, Lass subs. Then comes T-wave. Then comes spikes. If they hit, she can still fish for a substitute (yes, she is likely to switch as Darm is commonly scarfed). Both are SR weak and in Darms case he kills himself with recoil anyway. Machamp can switch in to a frosslass but she will be behind a sub. The Frosslass user can now paralyze machamp, or get a layer of spikes. Then Frosslass simply switches out.
In hail frosslass gets at least one free turn simply by existing. The only pokemon in the metagame that can nullify that advantage is machamp. So no, I don't see how snowcloack abuse has become "less broken".
I played 3 battles today, 3 Chansey's. 3 Darmanitan Flare Blitz's as well :)
If you don't have a solid way of breaking Hippowdon then it WILL sit there all day long dishing out STAB EQ's off 112 attack and shuffling you. At the very least Hippopotas isn't hurting anything anytime soon
Quite frankly there is nobody that is going to complain about their weather setup being a complete behemoth to the point that it just automatically makes all non-ice/grass/water physical attackers relatively ineffective.
And quite frankly Sands rise in usage was just a given simply because it IS a incredibly advantageous weather effect as much as so many keep denying. It supports over 3 types of Pokemon supplementing damage by killing most forms of recovery, gives out defensive boosts to rocks, supports multiple speed, evasive and damage boosting effects, supports both offensive and defensive styles and has two excellent weather starters available (in OU anyway) instead of 1 fairly average one.
Well stuff like Stoutland, Golurk, and Rock-types tend to be bulky, so Sand Offense tends to be more of a Bulky Offense mentality, with Stoutland really reducing the need to have too much speed on the team. The three Sand immune types tend to have bulky representatives as well. With big hippo being a much better tank, it's not hard to see why Hippowdon fits in well on these teams for more reasons than just sand support.
Also, a buff is a buff, even if it doesn't fit an archetype of how a team is supposed to play it's always a help.
I would say that is in fact the biggest reason. It's just powerful in the meta. I suppose I should have said I'm caught off guard by the dramatic increase in sand usage because the only real players introduced to the mix (in my eyes). Are hippowdon and MGzam. To a lesser extent the increased viability of rock types to counter the new fire type mons
Scoopapa said:
Hmm, maybe I just have a different approach to sand offense. Honestly, I just try to design a team of pokemon to pave the way for stouland. I guess its a hyper offense team.My current team construction process hasnt included many of the sand regulars. But, I see what you are saying. Many of the pokemon that benefit from sand are bulky offense, hippowdon plays right into that.
I've yet to play sand on the ladder. I'm starting to get used to this metagame, get a feel of it and what not. I had about what, 9 battles so far. I know, it's not enough, I'll make up for it. Just trying to see what's popular in the meta, and what's not. I've seen a lot of Roserades, as expected. Haven't seen much Milotic, but i'm pretty sure i will down the line. I've yet to face Sandstorm either. Seen a lot of Water / Fire / Grass + Regibro.
Sand is pretty common how can you not face it? Also I agree, I haven't seen much Milotic around lately. Slowbro / Blastoise / Suicune all outclass it atm I think. Blastoise has Rapid Spin, Slowbro has Regenerator, and Suicune is Suicune
I'm not sure, i guess it's due to me not having that many battles, but I'm sure I'll see it around.
Okay, even on a hazards-weak team I really love using Milotic. Recover is, maybe next to Scald, the best move available on a bulky Water. Milotic can also mixed wall better than any other bulky Water (bar Suicune, who has four-moveslot syndrome anyway) and doesn't die to Special attacks like Slowbro does. Blastoise is a great Spinner, but not a great bulky Water because it doesn't have reliable recovery.
If your team is weak to hazards, Blastoise is a good choice in a defensive core with Chansey because you really need the Wish support. Blastoise can power through most Ghosts (except CM Mismagius), but takes a lot of damage in the process, so the opponent can just switch in something that can do 50% to Blastoise after their Ghost is eliminated, as in the following situation:
Golurk/CHandelure used Earthquake/SHadow Ball!
Blastoise lost 43% of its health!
Blastoise used Scald!
The foe's Golurk/Chandelure fainted!
Opponent sent out Shaymin!
Blastoise ran like hell!
And now you have a 55% Blastoise who will have to switch into hazards again, which will do enough damage so anything can pick it off. Blastoise is great at eliminating Ghosts, but not bulky enough to Spin.
Slowbro doesn't have the Special bulk that anything else has, but it's definitely the best Physical bulky Water in UU. Also gets Thunder Wave. Probably the best choice if you have like a Specially Defensive Deoxys-D or something for hazards, but then you just compound your Dark weakness.
Milotic, however, can hit as hard as Slowbro, abuse Haze, and still has Toxic, HP Grass, Recover, and Ice Beam for coverage. It's walling capabilities aren't spectacular, but most attacks 3KO it instead of 2KO it, so it can still force switches.
IMO Milotic is still useful as hell in this meta. It rapes Ghosts and checks (not counters) Mismagius if you're okay with outsourcing your Rapid Spinner to another Pokemon.
If your team is weak to hazards, Blastoise is a good choice in a defensive core with Chansey because you really need the Wish support. Blastoise can power through most Ghosts (except CM Mismagius), but takes a lot of damage in the process, so the opponent can just switch in something that can do 50% to Blastoise after their Ghost is eliminated, as in the following situation:
Golurk/CHandelure used Earthquake/SHadow Ball!
Blastoise lost 43% of its health!
Blastoise used Scald!
The foe's Golurk/Chandelure fainted!
Opponent sent out Shaymin!
Blastoise ran like hell!
And now you have a 55% Blastoise who will have to switch into hazards again, which will do enough damage so anything can pick it off. Blastoise is great at eliminating Ghosts, but not bulky enough to Spin.
Slowbro doesn't have the Special bulk that anything else has, but it's definitely the best Physical bulky Water in UU. Also gets Thunder Wave. Probably the best choice if you have like a Specially Defensive Deoxys-D or something for hazards, but then you just compound your Dark weakness.
Milotic, however, can hit as hard as Slowbro, abuse Haze, and still has Toxic, HP Grass, Recover, and Ice Beam for coverage. It's walling capabilities aren't spectacular, but most attacks 3KO it instead of 2KO it, so it can still force switches.
IMO Milotic is still useful as hell in this meta. It rapes Ghosts and checks (not counters) Mismagius if you're okay with outsourcing your Rapid Spinner to another Pokemon.
What Suicune do you use? I only use ResTalk with Roar. It's hardly set up fodder.
Yeah, Suicune really isn't that good in this meta, as Snunch said, it's basically setup fodder once it hits low health. Rest should only be used on a really bulky set-up Pokemon or a Natural Cure mon such as Roserade* and Shaymin*. Really, Suicune just has too much four-moveslot syndrome and not enough attackign power to be a great bulky Water. To all you Suicune users, give Milotic or Slowbro (or Empoleon or Blastoise) a try, all four are arguably better than Suicune.
*both of those Pokemon are amazing in this metagame. Use them.
*both of those Pokemon are amazing in this metagame. Use them.
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