Sandslash

The lack of fighting/ground weaknesses and also the added bulk. Pretty sure he doesn't bend over to azumarril aqua jet.
 
While Sandslash might be outclassed be Excadrill, I think that he will definitely be seeing some use in the lower tiers. With Swords Dance/Claw Sharpen and Sand Rush, he could boost his attack and speed enough to possibly sweep teams. The added bulk is also appreciated, as he can take more hits than Excadrill can.
 
Since we're comparing slash to mr mole dude I'd like to point out that sandslash gets stone edge while our good friend the mole must use rockslide. Idk if that makes much of a deference but I'd like to say sandslash is an absolute beast. And that's based off 4th gen when he didn't have sandthrow. Lol I run jolly in NU and it's great for getting a spin on unsuspecting foes notably other sandslash. I'm frothing at the mouth for what double speed will do. Last thing, is knock down or whatever viable on him? Hitting things with a stab earthquake that other wise could not seems like a plus
 
I found in DW that Sandslash works really well in a double-dragon kind of strategy with Excadrill. You let Sandslash in first, soften up the counters, and then out comes Excadrill to clean up the mess left behind. Naturally, since your third team member will be TTar, you're going to require the rest of your team to be highly balanced to counteract the glaring Water/Grass/Fighting weaknesses, but eh.
 
To me, the double dragon strategy doesn't seem to work very well, mostly because Sandslash and Excadrill have like the exact sam moveset. With the double dragon strategy, you've got tons of options, as dragons do. But both the sandstorm abusers are stopped cold by the same counters.
 
Garagara said:
To me, the double dragon strategy doesn't seem to work very well, mostly because Sandslash and Excadrill have like the exact sam moveset. With the double dragon strategy, you've got tons of options, as dragons do. But both the sandstorm abusers are stopped cold by the same counters.
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That's true, but that's why you have to dedicate the entire team to the strategy, as opposed to double dragon which was more a coincidence.

As Lou Cypher mentioned, you're going to have to accomodate your glaring weakness to Water/Grass/Fighting/Ice (if you use Hippo instead), but that's not exactly a hard thing to do. Besides, just because Exca-Slash is, essentially, your offensive core doesn't mean that you don't have other aggressors that cover what ExcaSlash do not.

That, and as I'm sure has been mentioned before, Slash and Exca make good partners for their sheer type difference. Slash, with his high defense and pure Ground typing make him much more able to take things like Earthquake and whatnot.

Has anybody ran Slash with Tyranitar (and not with Excadrill)?
 
It's not so much the type difference that is unattractive, as Slash can handle priority somewhat whereas Drill is more of a glass cannon. It's more their coverage. Both have Rock, Ground, Swords Dance, Bug/Fight/Norm/Ghost. If a poke can counter slash, in can pretty much counter drill too, as they are just so similar, and so limited in coverage. If one had a fire/ice/grass/etc move, I think it'd have much more practicality.
 
I think it can work pretty well in breaking through walls. As Lou Cypher mentioned last year, +2 Jolly LO Stone-Edge against a Skarmory, does 40-47%, which is pretty impressive. 252 HP / 252 Def Relaxed Bronzong also loses 36-42% from +2 LO X-Scissor, so it can be worn down.

It would be a little harder to bait and kill revenge killers like Azumarill and Conkeldurr with Sandslash, though.
 
Turnstoash said:
Since we're comparing slash to mr mole dude I'd like to point out that sandslash gets stone edge while our good friend the mole must use rockslide.
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Rock Slide is substantially better, as Excadrill really can't afford to miss. Plus, over two turns, Rock Slide does more damage on average, when you account for the flinch chance and the fact that Excadrill/Sandslash should be outspeeding your opponent at all times:

Stone Edge average damage = 100*.80 = 80
Rock Slide average damage = 75*.90 + 75*.90*.3 = 87.75 (the .3 is the flinch chance, meaning you get a free turn to do extra damage)

As you can see, Rock Slide does more damage on average (and that's not even accounting for the possibility of multiple consecutive flinches), it hits once more reliably than Stone Edge does, and the flinch can really screw with your counters. I didn't even know that Excadrill couldn't learn Stone Edge until you posted it; I figured it could, but everyone used Rock Slide because it murders things at +2 anyways, it's a much safer option, and the flinch chance is so darn useful.
 
stone edge has higher crit chance. if you are gunna put the flinch into effect, put the high crit chance in the calculations too.
 
This thread certainly raised my awareness to sandslash's viability. and yay for new and certainly improved SandSlash.
 
VaporeonIce said:
Rock Slide is substantially better, as Excadrill really can't afford to miss. Plus, over two turns, Rock Slide does more damage on average, when you account for the flinch chance and the fact that Excadrill/Sandslash should be outspeeding your opponent at all times:

Stone Edge average damage = 100*.80 = 80
Rock Slide average damage = 75*.90 + 75*.90*.3 = 87.75 (the .3 is the flinch chance, meaning you get a free turn to do extra damage)

As you can see, Rock Slide does more damage on average (and that's not even accounting for the possibility of multiple consecutive flinches), it hits once more reliably than Stone Edge does, and the flinch can really screw with your counters. I didn't even know that Excadrill couldn't learn Stone Edge until you posted it; I figured it could, but everyone used Rock Slide because it murders things at +2 anyways, it's a much safer option, and the flinch chance is so darn useful.
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If you account 12.5% chance to crit:
Stone Edge average damage = 100*0.8 + 100*0.8*0.125 = 90

EDIT: Rock Slide average damage when the 6.25% crit rate is applied
Rock Slide average damage = (75*0.9) + (75*0.9*0.3) + (75*0.9*0.0625) + (75*0.9*0.3*0.0625) = 93
- the last scenario was both crit and flinch.

You're right, though, Scarfwynaut, the overall power difference doesn't matter too much. If you want to nab essential KOs that are made possibly by Stone Edge's ~30% boost in power, then go with Stone-Edge. If you don't need the extra power or don't want to be trolled by misses, and if you would rather bank occasionally on the 30% chance to flinch hax something to gain a kill rather than an 80% guarantee kill, then go with Rock Slide.
 
Hmm

Whats the average damage on rockslide factoring flinches and crits, it might be enough to push rockslide over the edge and have more average damage then stone edge?

It doesn't matter that much though since you need stone edge for KOs, plain and simply.
 
that nice man already went through the trouble of calc'ing it, if you assume always outspeeding, then it's 93.
 
ehh... stone edge doesnt miss THAT MUCH. i wuld love for excadrill to get stone edge actually. its at least better than focus miss. that thing cant even hit CHINA if it wanted to.
 
Do these averages hold any merit? You can't compare accuracy and damage like that.

Also, Wouldn't Stoutland be a better double Sand Rush partner for Excadrill?
 
Stoutland lacks SD so Sandslash can hit much harder. However i don`t think that double Sand Rush works so well all sand rush pokes have more or less the same counters (Bronzong Skarmory Gliscor) and since they got recovery a simple cripple with first Poke finish of with the next won't work out that well.
Oh and if you want to try it anyways weaken the counters with Excadrill and sweep with Stoutland/Sandslash, because Exca is the only one of them that can actually muscle through some walls ,sadly all lack an at least decent SpA so lure sets are out of question :/

Edit:Just saw that stoutland gets ice fang and can 2HKO Gliscor (without Protect) with LO and Adamant, he also gets fire fang for skarmory, but even at +1 you cant even 2HKO Physically defensive Skarmory.
 
It also gets wild charge, which does get a 2HKO on physically defensive skarm with +1 adamant LO, but I don't know if you want to be hurting yourself with recoil when you're already weak to mach punch.
I'm assuming the +1 is from a work up?
 
JT Swift said:
Do these averages hold any merit? You can't compare accuracy and damage like that.
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It has some merit, its an objective way to look at which move is better overall in the long run. I mean blizzard and thunder get just as many KOs as fire blast, but they get a mear 84 average power, while fire blast gets 102. Surely it has some merit.

But here, its too close, 3 power overall isn't going to help you KO that pokemon you need to right there with rockslide instead of stone edge.
 
Sandslash can choose between stone edge and rockslide though, as oppose to excadrill who must run rockslide. Also, ignore my post about smack down as unfortunately neither of them learn it.
 
But it isn't a 3 power difference, it's a 25 power difference. You can't merge the power and accuracy because it doesn't scale consistently.
 
Does anybody have actual numbers about the difference in bulk between excadrill and sandslash? While Sandlash undeniably has almost double the defense of Excadrill, he also has significantly less HP. I bet the difference between their defenses is less than it seems most people are assuming, especially since with Excadrill can afford a lot more than Sandlash to sacrifice investment in attack/speed for his defenses. Not that you'd probably particularly want a bulky Excadrill, but the mole is definitely not a glass cannon (and in fact has a higher HP stat than every Steel type and every ground type but Rhyperior and Mamoswine).
 
You can just multiply HP * Defense for the overall physical bulk. Excadrill has 361 HP * 156 Def = 56,316, whereas Sandslash has 291 HP * 256 Def Def = 74,496. So uninvested, Sandslash has approximately 32% better physical bulk.

Of course this isn't taking into account typing.
 
I reckon this has a great chance at OU once Sand Rush is released. Sandslash's Stone Edge is actually somewhat more powerful than Exca's Rock Slide, it has more variety in its attacking options (Night Slash!), and it's a great offensive spinner. It's in a whole other league to something like Stoutland.
 
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