Yes but how many people run Dual Screens+Memento Latios or Uxie in OU?
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Deoxys-S Tiering Discussion
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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Not a lot because Deoxys-S exists, and can easily Taunt them if they were in the lead position. But I don't see your point. It's faster, yeah, but they outspeed the rest of OU and are only behind Deoxys-S in terms of speed so where are you going with this? lol
People have only started using Dual Screens+5 sweepers because Deo makes it so easy. And while Lati@s and Uxie have speed, they're not outspeeding to entire metagame the way that Deo is. His speed allows him to throw up a screen before almost any attack (bar Bullet Punch or random Extremespeed) and survive it. then get the other one up. Other screeners don't have such a surefire and mindless method to lead their team to victory.
1. It's really not that Deoxys-S is versatile, it's more that he's THAT GOOD and still that versatile if that makes sense. All of these "limited to 2 hazards" ideas that we're all basing most of our posts on assume that YOU'RE DROPPING DEOXYS IN TWO HITS. Countless times I've switched in Tyranitar to break his sash with ss and go for the kill, only to get dropped by Superpower; and Forretress, to meet HP Fire; and CB Dragonite, to meet Ice Beam; and Chandelure (yes I use chandelure on one of my stall teams), to meet a LO Psycho Boost. His "brokenness" comes from the fact that, in my opinion, he has no very few 100% switch ins, and even if you switch one of these in, joke's on you because your opponent has his hazards up. To rephrase this idea, it's not the worst case scenario that makes Deoxys broken, its the best case scenario. Wost case scenario, you try killing a Deoxys with a Heatran and a Gyarados to find out he was running Thunderpunch and HP Ground- oh and he got up two layers of hazards. That sucks, but that can happen any time you go toe to toe against a Pokemon with a versatile movepool like that. What's truly troubling is the best case scenario, that even when I see a Deoxys in team preview and think "man I so got this" your opponent STILL GETS UP STEALTH ROCK AND SPIKES. I know, I know, what separates this from other suicide leads? No other suicide lead can literally outspeed the entire metagame AND set up both Stealth Rock AND Spikes. To answer Aldaron's question, the amount of preparation to TRULY prepare for a Deoxys-S lead (IE U turn Xatu + Scarf Terrakion or something) would be preposterous. In my opinion, slapping a Forretress on a team ought to be ample preparation to deal with a spike-stacking lead, and using something ridiculous like an Occa Berry on him would absolutely be impractical against any other scenario.
2. I firmly believe this to be the case. If there was an option on PO to only use 5 Pokemon but start the game with Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes on the opponent's side automatically, I would go for it 100%. So many Pokemon- Terrakion, Dragonite, Haxorus, Lucario, Landorus- can easily muscle through their counters with just a tad bit of entry hazards support. There was a reason Gen 4 Froslass was BL right? I mean I didn't play UU but from my understanding, a basically guaranteed layer of spikes or two made threats like Moltres or Swellow nigh impossible to deal with. Spikes are GOOD; if you flip through a strategy dex every damn offensive 'mon in the book "appreciates hazards support".
I won't even attempt #3, I believe that 1 and 2 are plenty enough to prove its uber status. Obviously screens make things easier for lots of 'mons, but I generally don't think that suicide screens is the best way to use Deoxys. I will comment, however, that a lot of things that you can use to neuter spikes deoxys are set up fodder for the less common screens set, so that should be considered.
I also agree with Taylor and Chou. I'm sure a lot of people are saying "fuck those ban-happy Smogoners, Deoxys-s was fine now, everybody's just banning the next best thing!" Quite simply, in the Thundurus / Excadrill metagame, Deoxys-s wasn't BROKEN. Excadrill was a fantastic spinner that was nigh impossible to block, and Deoxys was total set up fodder for Thundurus in this metagame anyway (which, as we can all remember, was NOT GOOD, you DID NOT want Thundurus getting to +2 or +4). Besides these obvious facts, the metagame of that time was simply less accommodating to hyper offense in general since Excadrill outsped everything. Deoxys-s is broken NOW, directly BECAUSE of the recent bannings.
The more I experiment with Deoxys and try interesting sets rather than the standards, the more I'm starting to lean towards Uber.
Like has been said before, hazards or screens are pretty much a guarantee. But people forget that Deoxys has a movepool out of the wazzoo. You can have your hazards, but then if there's something your team has problems with, you can slap that coverage move on and have almost a guaranteed killer waiting in the wings for the rest of the game. Gyarados troubles? You can run Thunderbolt and kill the damn thing for god sakes. Worried that CB Nite is gonna come get you? You can use Ice Beam. HP Fire for Scizor. Superpower for Heatran or Tyranitar. It's ridiculous. Tired of priority users coming in and getting 2ko's? Run Rocky Helmet and force them to lose like a third of their health in the process.
I've moved from thinking it's OU to being on the fence. I'm going to keep using it though and see what I start to think.
Although, Chople Tar stops the hazards set 100% of the time. I haven't done any calculations, but I'm sure he could be made to 2ko with reflect easily.
Like has been said before, hazards or screens are pretty much a guarantee. But people forget that Deoxys has a movepool out of the wazzoo. You can have your hazards, but then if there's something your team has problems with, you can slap that coverage move on and have almost a guaranteed killer waiting in the wings for the rest of the game. Gyarados troubles? You can run Thunderbolt and kill the damn thing for god sakes. Worried that CB Nite is gonna come get you? You can use Ice Beam. HP Fire for Scizor. Superpower for Heatran or Tyranitar. It's ridiculous. Tired of priority users coming in and getting 2ko's? Run Rocky Helmet and force them to lose like a third of their health in the process.
I've moved from thinking it's OU to being on the fence. I'm going to keep using it though and see what I start to think.
Although, Chople Tar stops the hazards set 100% of the time. I haven't done any calculations, but I'm sure he could be made to 2ko with reflect easily.
Can we please stop this comparison of Deo-S and the other screeners?
Lets use this example:
-Opponent has Scarfed Haxorus and it's going to use Dual Chop.
That DC is definitely going to kill your Azelf/Deo-S unless you get screens up.
Guess who's going to get Reflect(and Light Screen) before they die?
Xatu is even slower and has an added Flying typing which isn't all too helpful. Espeon is still slower. Alakazam...as a screener? I think you're just wasting talent there.
Anyway, the point is...Deo-S is fucking fast and that's what matters.
Fast Screens + Fast as Fuck Taunt + actually usable coverage moves and offensive stats(Mostly directed at Xatu/Bronzong/etc).
Either way, you're just theorymonning there.
Spikes + SR ARE an issue. Your walls are going to be constantly pressured to switch around and forced to use their Status moves/Attacks and the hazards really wear them down. It's not like you can make your walls immune to hazards. It's not the same with Azelf because nearly any freaking scarfer(Scarftar for example <,<) will out speed and pwn Azelf before you can set up both screens/hazards.
Rain Stall is slow as molasses. I'm not saying it's bad or anything, it's actually pretty good, but these stallers are usually pretty slow and a faster Taunt(which is easy to do since they're so slow <,<) can give them trouble. They also have a weather war to fight which limits them.
Sun Offense is also good, but they have trouble with a couple Dragons and Fire types, most notably Heatran.
Since you don't seem to read what other have written in this thread here is a previous post i made that explains why Deoxys-S is leagues ahead of Azelf as a dual screener:
The difference is the speed!
How can you neglect such a huge factor?
If you want to use DS Azelf i can now Trick my Scarf to you to limit your job,hit you very hard before you setup any screen or just Taunt you with something faster!
Also Azelf cannot get past Bandtar which screws him exactly as he does to Deoxys-S.
But Deo-S can Superpower this thing to hell while Azelf's best options are GK and HP fight which are 2hkos at best against any TTar.
Finally not that it matters greatly but with max HP investement Deo-S is around 4% bulkier in both sides behind screens.
So for example Deo-S has a tiny chance to get ohkoed by Bandtar's Crunch (2,76%) while Azelf has quite a bigger chance to get ohkoed (33,33%).
Don't make such assumptions. I can easily target your English, but that's irrelevant just as your comment was. >.>
The speed is not a huge difference. Yes, Deoxys outspeeds scarfers. Cool. They are set up fodder for the sweepers that come after Azelf. Is there anything you guys don't get about that? That Haxorus used Dual Chop. Cool. Azelf survived, and used SR/Reflect and then died next turn. Now Lucario gets to rampage on your team. Scarftar used Crunch on your Azelf. Cool. There are a number of sweepers that can set up on that. The fact you guys are resorting to Scarfers to solve your DS problems says something about it considering most teams only carry one if any at all (Stall teams usually won't).
Also, Alexwolf, you mentioned somewhere about Taunting Azelf with something faster. What exactly are you taunting it with? lolaerodactyl or lolcrobat?
Also, Kefka, the Spiker set isn't what most people believe is making Deoxys broken. I think most of us can agree it's the Dual Screen set that makes Deoxys look Uber.
But then there are Pokemon out there that can do the same thing: set up screens. The only thing Deoxys has over them is his ability to outspeed scarfers. But then that's totally irrelevant if you are resorting to scarfers for killing the Dual Screener simply because they become set up fodder after the kill. Isn't that the purpose of Reflect, Light Screen, and taunt? To turn stuff into set up fodder for a sweeper?
Edit: Yes, I'm theorymoning. I'm going to go ahead and test the other DS users myself with a standard Deo+5 sweepers team and see how it fairs.
The speed is not a huge difference. Yes, Deoxys outspeeds scarfers. Cool. They are set up fodder for the sweepers that come after Azelf. Is there anything you guys don't get about that? That Haxorus used Dual Chop. Cool. Azelf survived, and used SR/Reflect and then died next turn. Now Lucario gets to rampage on your team. Scarftar used Crunch on your Azelf. Cool. There are a number of sweepers that can set up on that. The fact you guys are resorting to Scarfers to solve your DS problems says something about it considering most teams only carry one if any at all (Stall teams usually won't).
Also, Alexwolf, you mentioned somewhere about Taunting Azelf with something faster. What exactly are you taunting it with? lolaerodactyl or lolcrobat?
Also, Kefka, the Spiker set isn't what most people believe is making Deoxys broken. I think most of us can agree it's the Dual Screen set that makes Deoxys look Uber.
But then there are Pokemon out there that can do the same thing: set up screens. The only thing Deoxys has over them is his ability to outspeed scarfers. But then that's totally irrelevant if you are resorting to scarfers for killing the Dual Screener simply because they become set up fodder after the kill. Isn't that the purpose of Reflect, Light Screen, and taunt? To turn stuff into set up fodder for a sweeper?
Edit: Yes, I'm theorymoning. I'm going to go ahead and test the other DS users myself with a standard Deo+5 sweepers team and see how it fairs.
I don't see the point of you making this statement, as it's equally "irrelevant" as you claim his argument to be, and it's also rude.
Sure, they're set-up fodders, but you act as if Lucario or Terrakion or whatever set-up sweeper doesn't have counters. Most to all battlers should know the risks of carrying a scarfed Pokemon, and will attempt to create a team that remedies the problem created by the scarfed Pokemon in the first place. You're also acting as if Azelf is the second fastest Pokemon in the OU metagame. The speed difference between Azelf and Deoxys is clear. Things like Jolteon can OHKO (2HKO if focus sash) Azelf before it can set up a screen. Starmie speed ties with Azelf, etc.
More mockery. I'm pretty sure Alexwolf doesn't appreciate this, but anyways, there are viable Pokemon that outspeed and taunt, most notably of which are Azelf (which speed ties) and Deoxys.
No, it's been mentioned before what Deoxys has over other Dual Screeners, which it would be a good idea to go back and read.
I am shocked and appalled that anyone could think today that Excadrill could exist in a balanced OU. The only way to kill it was a +Speed already fast CSc user or Mach Punch. I believe that Deoxys Speed Forme, while a bland and unexciting Pokémon, does not need to be banned. Deoxys Speed Forme was the reason I ran Brick Break on my Haxorus when I played OU. Actually, it wasn't, but it was an added perk to Brick Break. You shouldn't be running Superpower on your Scizors anyways...
Alright, how about we try and figure something out here.
Is there any Pokemon, and I mean ANY Pokemon, that can go against Deoxys and win every single time, no matter the set? And by win, I mean no hazards, no screens, your Pokemon is still alive, and the Deoxys either switched out or died.
I'd venture to say that the answer is no. Whether it's a Magic Coat Deoxys or an all-out offensive Deoxys, nothing is guaranteed to be perfectly fine.
Is there any Pokemon, and I mean ANY Pokemon, that can go against Deoxys and win every single time, no matter the set? And by win, I mean no hazards, no screens, your Pokemon is still alive, and the Deoxys either switched out or died.
I'd venture to say that the answer is no. Whether it's a Magic Coat Deoxys or an all-out offensive Deoxys, nothing is guaranteed to be perfectly fine.
I think that this Pokemon would also have to be able to stop it from setting up more than 1 layer of hazards or one Screen as well, for it to truly shut down Deoxys-S. Obviously, if Deoxys-S ran no attacks, such Pokemon exist in Scizor and Tyranitar, but that's where the problem lies, Deoxys-S can Spike/Set Scrsens easily and effectively threaten anything that would stop it from doing so, with its large array of viable moves. Obviously, it can't carry every coverage move that it's able to learn, but no one wants to waste their time scouting while it sets Spikes/Screens and no one wants to take a stab in the dark and get their Scizor OHKO'd by HP Fire, either.
I have read what Deoxys-S has over the other screeners. So far all I'm getting is Speed (Remember I'm talking specifically about the DS set so none of that Superpower for Ttar bs...). Unless you want to tell me right now because this thread is a jumbled mess. :/
First of all for who was the answer reffering to targeting english?
Now let's get on to the main point...You keep saying that if a scarfer kills Azelf then something else is going to setup.
Well guess what this is always the case for scarfers.That's why every good team that carries a scarfer has answers for the pokes that can setup on its locked moves.
Also you compare the setup oportunities that the screens give to the setup oportunites that a locked move gives.
The big difference is that the wrong choice lcoked move only gives you 1 free turn,while the screens are up for effectively 5 or 6 whole turns.
Are you starting to get it now?
You cannot compare the enormous and longer setup oportunities that dual screens provide to the smaller and 1-turn lasting setup oportunity a choiced move gives.
So assuming i have a Scarftar or a Scarf Hydreigon and i ohko your Azelf while you switch to something that can setup on the locked move.
Do you seriously think that any decent team will not have an answer for pokes that can setup on its scarfers?
Do you seriously think that with just 1 turn of setup you will sweep my whole team when everything is at full life and you have no rocks up?
But with Deoxys-S this is possible!Just go and find in the previous page kd24's example of how difficult is to deal with a single lumddnite behind screens.
Finally about the Taunt thing i know that there are not many things that are faster than Azelf with Taunt(propably zero pokes in OU bar Deoxys-S)but at least having the option to Taunt is is better than not to have this option at all(see Deoxys-S).
Bronzong is without a doubt, the best counter to deoxys in OU. The best life orb sweeper can do is 118-140 damage against the standard bronzong set (3HKO or 4HKO). What's he gonna do, taunt you?? Great, gyro ball to the face or set up trick room. HP fire again?? Once again, gyro ball. Reflect?? Haven't done calculations, but with deoxys-s's speed, it's most likely a 2HKO.
But how does this prevent Deoxys from setting up hazards or screens? Sure, Bronzong can't get killed from it, but that's not what's making Deoxys so dangerous. It's easy to wall the bitch.
It is a 4hko behind Reflect.
So Deo-S will setup both screens and SR.And after Deo-S finally dies Bronzong is one of the biggest setup fodders for pokes like Volcarona and Dragonite.
So bronzong is out of the question.
Generally, one free turn is all a sweeper needs to start wrecking a team, but I get what you're saying. The only problem is that you guys are resorting to scarfers to solve the problem. How common are scarfers in this metagame? From my experience there aren't many....You guys are assuming that if Deoxys-s gets banned and Azelf or some other Dual Screeners replace it there will suddenly be an increase in the number of scarftars. It could happen, but then remember that azelf isn't the only good DS user out there. There's also Deo-D who is pretty fast in its own right, and even Uxie, both of which have few issues with Scarfers due to their enormous bulk. Deo-D even has Taunt.
Edit: Also, be honest. When was the last time you've seen a scarftar? >.<
somebody who hasn't seen a scarftar in a while said:
Scarftar is pretty common, especially on stall teams.
Screens are impossible with a non-scarf deoxys as there is nothing but taunt that stops them. Brick break can help though
Hazards+offense uxie stops cold 100%. Buteveryone forgot about the poor ultimate momentum-grabber that uxie is
This right here is food for thought. People got all caught up in "the three sets" that they overlook Deoxys's ability to be a niche counter to almost anything.
Scarftar's or any scarfer's usage is not relevant now.
Maybe the metagame doesn't need them or maybe it does.
What matters is that if and when Azelf becomes popular and dangerous as a dual screener,there will be options to deal with him!
There will be faster Taunts,scarfers that can ohko him or Trick him and even faster pokes that don't have a scarf that can ohko him!
But with Deoxys-S there is none of these options.
Versatility leads to many potential possibilities for Spike-stacking Deoxys-S, but they're not sufficient, and still leaves it countered by usual tactics. It's not Terrakion, who has dual STAB and 2 high-powered moves with great offensive coverage backed up by its awesome Attack. Sure, Deoxys-S can destroy a Forretress or Starmie with HP Fire + Thunder - but that Deoxys-S can't stop Rotom-W's Volt Switch -> Scizor's Bullet Punch KO. No SR + Spikes in that scenario, which people say Deoxys-S guarantees.
Deoxys-S with Superpower + HP Fire / Fire Punch falls to the same Rotom-W -> Scizor combo and prevent Spikes up. A lead Starmie or Tentacruel can spin with impunity, not letting anything up. Starmie does the same thing against a mon with Superpower + Psychic. Scizor's U-turn and Lucario's ExtremeSpeed prevents SR + Spikes.
This versatility may offer advantages to Deoxys-S in a specific situation, but leaves it helpless against the many other ways of dealing with Deoxys-S.
The thing is - as mentioned above, there are handful of common mons / tactics to minimize hazards to SR, not much of an achievement. So a good team shouldn't have to deal with SR + Spikes in the first place.
Secondly, this is not DPP OU. It's BW OU with team preview. I can't stress how Team Preview diminishes the potential devastation that an heavy offense team could cause otherwise. With team preview, you can already start out with a favorable match-up against Deoxys-S (yes, the opponent doesn't need to lead with Deoxys-S, but then that's simply putting them at a disadvantage). More importantly, you know exactly what the 5 Sweepers consist of, so it's not hard to practice some damage control, minimize your losses, and plough through their small defense.
DPP OU was a guessing game. You didn't even know if the opponent was leading with Deoxys-S until the match begins, and that's how Deoxys-S gained a huge advantage that it lacks in BW OU. You also know what Sweeper of yours give the opponent the most trouble, making sure you preserve it until a chance presents itself for it to Sweep. You couldn't do this sort of planning in DPP OU.
Team Preview affects HO particularly, because it has a dedicated lead, unlike other teams, and their plan is one-dimensional. You could start without Deoxys-S, sure, but that's just hampering Heavy Offense's ability to sweep.
kd24's argument is faulty - he assumes that Dual Screen Deoxys-S is setting up on a wall, letting Deoxys-S set up Screens + SR no problem and then Dragonite comes in unscathed and start setting up DD willy nilly.
One of the solid way to answer Dual Screen Deoxys-S is firing off your offense first. Send out your Volcarona. Deoxys-S wants to LSCreen? Volcarona's going to set up on you. You could switch to your Terrakion / Dragonite afterward, but Volcarona's going to still put a dent on either of them, breaking MultiScale on Dragonite, and now Scizor can BP them out (no Reflect). Deoxys-S can Taunt instead of Screens, only to get knocked out by Bug Buzz with no screens. Putting up both screen is not a guarantee against a competent team with useful offense. The scenario above can be played with many Sweepers, since Deoxys-S can't do anything back.
kd24's Dragonite wont be getting free set-ups / sweeps in that scenario. And this illustration above is only one tactic, specifically for people using offensive teams. People with defensive teams can stall out the Reflect / Light Screen much easily, thanks to more dependable defensive pivots.
There you go.
With rain support bronzong can take Hp fire very well. In the rain, I think bronzong wins the war against deoxys-s (even with reflect up).
i dont see how its faulty - deoxys is guaranteed a screen basically unless its something like trick scarf azelf leading (idk) - this will in turn give it a second screen and then an entry hazard - the exception of this is as you said a set up sweeper
you mentioned volcarona but thats a list thats very short and there is no guarantee the deoxys user is leading with deoxys, especially if you're running volcarona - its the fact that deoxys sets up on such a large portion of the metagame that in fact, it can choose when to come in basically if the opponent has something risky like volcarona
its also to be noted that dual screen deoxys usually has taunt, which means its a 50/50 of if you set up or not - what happens when it taunts volca as you quiver dance and then it ls and then reflects or sr - isnt that the same scenario?
the deoxys-s player isnt being pushed into a corner right away, i find your argument only pushing what i said as true - the opposing player is pretty much forced into a situation where if they have something to set up on deoxys, they are forced to lead with it, but because of deoxys speed and current situation in the meta, it can still set up a majority of things later.
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