There are lots of people who use a lead politoed. Who gives a crap if he uses t-wave?? And actually, screw bullet punch. I would just keep spamming pursuit, and if for some reason he decides to stay in, use brick break to get rid of reflect.
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Deoxys-S Tiering Discussion
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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There are lots of people who use a lead politoed. Who gives a crap if he uses t-wave?? And actually, screw bullet punch. I would just keep spamming pursuit, and if for some reason he decides to stay in, use brick break to get rid of reflect.
I have no opinion on Deoxys-S, but have to point this out:
I'm sorry but this is silly. People CAN switch around and fool you with a hazards Deoxys-S that isn't in the lead spot. There is nothing lost by doing so, and in fact I've done similar things myself quite a bit. Comparing other things like "but people can fool around with no STAB move on Heatran and fool you", you do lose something substantial by not having a STAB move on Heatran, but choosing which Pokemon to have in the lead position on team preview will cost you at most a few seconds.
Arguing that it's possible to deduce what set it is from its teammates is a good point, but "deducing" what set it is from whether or not it's leading is silly.
I'm sorry but this is silly. People CAN switch around and fool you with a hazards Deoxys-S that isn't in the lead spot. There is nothing lost by doing so, and in fact I've done similar things myself quite a bit. Comparing other things like "but people can fool around with no STAB move on Heatran and fool you", you do lose something substantial by not having a STAB move on Heatran, but choosing which Pokemon to have in the lead position on team preview will cost you at most a few seconds.
Arguing that it's possible to deduce what set it is from its teammates is a good point, but "deducing" what set it is from whether or not it's leading is silly.
I didnt say T-wave, I said Thunder. and in the case Meta pursuits, Deoxys can just set up Reflect again, in which case Pursuiting again only hits for 80damage(and affected by Reflect), Deoxys starts spamming entry hazards, or using Brick break in which case, something else switched in can take care of Meta and lose screens, or a ghost type and still have a screen up, and this is assuming you run a rain team, which mostly are the same rain stall teams that don't even carry meta and the team is easily taunted before laying down T-spikes
BB Metagross (which is pretty bad, tbh, since running Hammer Arm is a LOT better) is a pretty good check to Dual Screens and Offensive Deoxys-S. However, hazards Deoxys-S could set-up at least 2 hazards.
Offensive Deoxys-S is a thrill to run, but the problem is that you absolutely need to weaken everything to at LEAST 70%, and more bulky pokemon (read: bulky waters) need to be absolutely removed. Also, Deoxys-S is really frail defensively (HP Ice from Landorus does 40%).
Quoting Red Alert in OU October Statistics Thread:
This is actually an important question to answer when we're banning mons. I hardly view Deoxys-S as a mon that is stifling viability of Pokemon in the OU metagame. It's no Excadrill, which considerably restricted team-building. It's not even Thundurus, which allowed for more flexibility in the way we deal with it, but still a very dangerous threat with its troll Speed, Nasty Plot, and awesome coverage (Focus Blast).
I never found myself being restricted in my team-building process, due to the presence of Deoxys-S. Even when I face one, the LO variants are easily revenged with all the priorities available to us and 105+ Scarfers (Gengar, Latios, Terrakion, Mienshao, Chloro Venusaur). Can't say the same for Excadrill, which resisted common priority moves and was not checked by Scarfers below 120.
The lead sets are annoying, but they are in the same league as Ferrothorn or Dual Screen Espeon, as far as I'm concerned. I honestly have nothing much to say about them.
I fail to see the removal of Deoxys-S affecting the metagame diversity, as it had in previous bans. Dual Screen + 5 Sweepers will still thrive by simply replacing Deoxys-S with Espeon / Azelf / Uxie / Latios / Jirachi. Ferrothorn can easily set up Spikes / SR, thanks to its defense and typing (Yes, Deoxys-S has the Speed, but priority moves can easily limit it to laying only SR, a feat most mon can easily do without dying), while not totally forfeiting the offensive momentum thanks to Thunder Wave / Leech Seed.
We simply banned the "best thing" in OU, and I guess we move to the "next best thing," to ban and lower the overall power level of OU?
I wouldn't be surprised if Dragonite / Volcarona gets the banhammer after Deoxys-S goes, b/c "setting up Rocks isn't as easy anymore," lol :/
This is actually an important question to answer when we're banning mons. I hardly view Deoxys-S as a mon that is stifling viability of Pokemon in the OU metagame. It's no Excadrill, which considerably restricted team-building. It's not even Thundurus, which allowed for more flexibility in the way we deal with it, but still a very dangerous threat with its troll Speed, Nasty Plot, and awesome coverage (Focus Blast).
I never found myself being restricted in my team-building process, due to the presence of Deoxys-S. Even when I face one, the LO variants are easily revenged with all the priorities available to us and 105+ Scarfers (Gengar, Latios, Terrakion, Mienshao, Chloro Venusaur). Can't say the same for Excadrill, which resisted common priority moves and was not checked by Scarfers below 120.
The lead sets are annoying, but they are in the same league as Ferrothorn or Dual Screen Espeon, as far as I'm concerned. I honestly have nothing much to say about them.
I fail to see the removal of Deoxys-S affecting the metagame diversity, as it had in previous bans. Dual Screen + 5 Sweepers will still thrive by simply replacing Deoxys-S with Espeon / Azelf / Uxie / Latios / Jirachi. Ferrothorn can easily set up Spikes / SR, thanks to its defense and typing (Yes, Deoxys-S has the Speed, but priority moves can easily limit it to laying only SR, a feat most mon can easily do without dying), while not totally forfeiting the offensive momentum thanks to Thunder Wave / Leech Seed.
We simply banned the "best thing" in OU, and I guess we move to the "next best thing," to ban and lower the overall power level of OU?
I wouldn't be surprised if Dragonite / Volcarona gets the banhammer after Deoxys-S goes, b/c "setting up Rocks isn't as easy anymore," lol :/
Deoxys-S and the Metagame
Post-Exacdrill it is very difficult to use rapid spin consistently, this is accounted for by the current metagame. Right now momentum based teams, be they based on volt-turn or on Set-up sweeping or a combination, are the most dominant form of offense. These teams give away very few first turns, and for the purposes of any real theoretical discussion it should be assumed that they give away 0 free turns (this is the theoretical goal of such teams), thus there are no opportunities to rapid spin in common battle conditions. By suicidally setting up hazards at the start of the battle, Deoxys-S preserves momentum and makes it vastly easier for its teammates to win, its a classic early game support pokemon, the perfect suicide lead.
There are two pokemon that are the staple of offense in our current metagame Deoxys-s and Dragonite. Deoxys-s, as a suicide support pokemon is the best supporter of offensive teams, as the only chance of a loss of momentum is if you lose a speed tie to another Deoxys-s. Dragonite is the best pokemon against momentum based teams as it can both set-up and revenge kill with impunity because of multiscale. Multiscale is negated by stealth rock, thus it is tremendously important for offensive teams to set it up early.
The result of this situation is that our metagame has reached a point where when two offensive teams battle, the single most telling factor will not be which player played better. It won't even always be about who's team is better or has a favorable match-up. Many times the single crucial thing will be which Deoxys-S is more effective against the other team. Thats it, even if your team is ridiculously weak to their Volcarona or Cloyster, if you have that one random Deoxys-S moveset that gives their team trouble, you're going to win that match.
When I use volt-turn offense, I get butt-fucked by Dual Screens Deoxys-S. When I play Dual Screens Offense, I get butt fucked by SR+life orb Deoxys-S. When I play balanced I get wrecked by SR+Spikes Deoxys-S. Its just to great an obstacle to overcome against any half-competent opponent. I fully support the banning of Deoxys-S as it is such a versatile and affective supporter that it decreases skill in every area of pokemon from team building (you only need to build a team of 5 pokemon now!) to the actual battle.
Its simply incorrect to say that Deoxys-S doesn't threaten diversity, when you now only need to build a team of 5 pokemon + Deoxys-S, it affects diversity on multiple levels.
I don't want to throw out bad ladder statistics as evidence, but I and MostWanted and basically anyone who has been #1 on the ladder in since right after the time Excadrill got banned has been using a team based on abusing Deoxys-S and Dragonite. I have extensive knowledge of the matchups and variations that exist between momentum teams, and I also know how each variation matches up against all the various weather and balanced teams. I've played the shit out of this metagame, Deoxys-S+Dragonite offense is the most consistent team by far, anyone who disputes that should just be ignored. I think that we've come to a realization in BW, while it isn't possible to counter everything or check everything, some pokemon, like Deoxys-S, make it close to impossible to be sure of checking anything. Deoxys-e and Excadrill are the type of all-in-1 supporter-revenge killer-sweeper pokemon that are just too overpowered to fit in OU.
Post-Exacdrill it is very difficult to use rapid spin consistently, this is accounted for by the current metagame. Right now momentum based teams, be they based on volt-turn or on Set-up sweeping or a combination, are the most dominant form of offense. These teams give away very few first turns, and for the purposes of any real theoretical discussion it should be assumed that they give away 0 free turns (this is the theoretical goal of such teams), thus there are no opportunities to rapid spin in common battle conditions. By suicidally setting up hazards at the start of the battle, Deoxys-S preserves momentum and makes it vastly easier for its teammates to win, its a classic early game support pokemon, the perfect suicide lead.
There are two pokemon that are the staple of offense in our current metagame Deoxys-s and Dragonite. Deoxys-s, as a suicide support pokemon is the best supporter of offensive teams, as the only chance of a loss of momentum is if you lose a speed tie to another Deoxys-s. Dragonite is the best pokemon against momentum based teams as it can both set-up and revenge kill with impunity because of multiscale. Multiscale is negated by stealth rock, thus it is tremendously important for offensive teams to set it up early.
The result of this situation is that our metagame has reached a point where when two offensive teams battle, the single most telling factor will not be which player played better. It won't even always be about who's team is better or has a favorable match-up. Many times the single crucial thing will be which Deoxys-S is more effective against the other team. Thats it, even if your team is ridiculously weak to their Volcarona or Cloyster, if you have that one random Deoxys-S moveset that gives their team trouble, you're going to win that match.
When I use volt-turn offense, I get butt-fucked by Dual Screens Deoxys-S. When I play Dual Screens Offense, I get butt fucked by SR+life orb Deoxys-S. When I play balanced I get wrecked by SR+Spikes Deoxys-S. Its just to great an obstacle to overcome against any half-competent opponent. I fully support the banning of Deoxys-S as it is such a versatile and affective supporter that it decreases skill in every area of pokemon from team building (you only need to build a team of 5 pokemon now!) to the actual battle.
Its simply incorrect to say that Deoxys-S doesn't threaten diversity, when you now only need to build a team of 5 pokemon + Deoxys-S, it affects diversity on multiple levels.
I don't want to throw out bad ladder statistics as evidence, but I and MostWanted and basically anyone who has been #1 on the ladder in since right after the time Excadrill got banned has been using a team based on abusing Deoxys-S and Dragonite. I have extensive knowledge of the matchups and variations that exist between momentum teams, and I also know how each variation matches up against all the various weather and balanced teams. I've played the shit out of this metagame, Deoxys-S+Dragonite offense is the most consistent team by far, anyone who disputes that should just be ignored. I think that we've come to a realization in BW, while it isn't possible to counter everything or check everything, some pokemon, like Deoxys-S, make it close to impossible to be sure of checking anything. Deoxys-e and Excadrill are the type of all-in-1 supporter-revenge killer-sweeper pokemon that are just too overpowered to fit in OU.
Myzozoa, each of your offensive teams are weak to one variant of support sets of Deoxys-S, and the opponent can only run 1 set. It's not an Excadrill, whose 1 bog standard set is enough to put the entire OU metagame revolving around it.
In essence, what you stated was a minor form of team match up. An offensive team with a particular Deoxys-S set is effective on your team. If you face the other 2 sets, Deoxys-S doesn't give you problems. Doesn't sound like a broken or a "too good" scenario to me.
A team of 5 Pokemon already exists in a form of weather teams (sand: TTar / Hippowdon + 5 mons; rain: Politoed + 5 mons; sun: Ninetales + 5 mons). No diversity threatened in any of these scenarios imo. Offensive teams do not even NEED Deoxys-S to be functional (see X5Dragon's team) anyways.
Plus, that's not the diversity I was talking about. My term of diversity is the number of mons that can be viably used in the OU metagame without being an overall liability to the team. I don't see Deoxys-S putting several mons' usefulness at stake.
In essence, what you stated was a minor form of team match up. An offensive team with a particular Deoxys-S set is effective on your team. If you face the other 2 sets, Deoxys-S doesn't give you problems. Doesn't sound like a broken or a "too good" scenario to me.
A team of 5 Pokemon already exists in a form of weather teams (sand: TTar / Hippowdon + 5 mons; rain: Politoed + 5 mons; sun: Ninetales + 5 mons). No diversity threatened in any of these scenarios imo. Offensive teams do not even NEED Deoxys-S to be functional (see X5Dragon's team) anyways.
Plus, that's not the diversity I was talking about. My term of diversity is the number of mons that can be viably used in the OU metagame without being an overall liability to the team. I don't see Deoxys-S putting several mons' usefulness at stake.
Uh, Weather teams arent exactly weather starters+5 Pokemon. TTar can Pursuit and hurt stuff, hippo phazes and quakes,Politoed can abuse encore/spam Scald/toxic/ Hydro pump everything, and yeah Ninetails is the only case of being dead weight. Deoxys-s doesnt have to be kept alive once its done unlike the weather starters, in which case weather vs weather is a battle of trying to keep your weather starter alive.
Okay, there's a reason Deoxys-S is a suspect. For starters it has the most ridiculous movepool in OU, in addition to Spikes, Stealth Rock (both rare for a psychic type) and even one of the most limited distributed moves in the game, ExtremeSpeed. His sets consist of near anything, to stopping any lead trying to set up rocks or screens with the fastest Taunt in the game, and after that Deo-S can set up rocks or dual screens on its own time while you switch and try to break past its bulk after the Reflect or Light Screen. I think Doexys should be banned not because of its game-breaking set up skills which allow nearly anything to set up after both Screens are up, but because it stops the viability of nearly any other dedicated lead. I think restricting what can even be used as a lead is ban worthy.
Deoxys, in addition to being the game's best lead, is one of the best late game cleaners, or early game clearers. Say your MoxieMence sweeps damages a Scizor to 50%, puts a Gliscor to about 70%, and the Dragonie that revenged you took rock damage before it useed ExtremeSpeed. Also, let's just throw in a Tyranitar to that team. It sounds like a pretty strong core team to me. I send in my Deoxys after such a sweep, and instantly sweep what's left of your team using Superpower, HP [Fire], and Ice Beam. Now, why was I able to do this? Even if they had a Scarf Tyranitar? Well, it's because Deoxys is the fastest threat in the game, and can fully invest in offences without being hindered by a great need for Speed EV's.
The last reason I want Deoxys banned is because it throws off the speedy nature of the game. Since Gen III with the introduction of customize-able EV's, there have been speed tiers. Gen IV brought us the Choice Scarf to throw off those speed tiers, and make them more complex. With such a system, there are various speeds one aims for such as the 329 to beat positive base 100's. Sitting at the top of the OU Speed Tiers are Deoxys-S and Ninjask. One can function as a sweeper, and the other is a harmless Baton Passer. Deoxys-S throws off the entire Speed Tiers system, calls you a (BAN ME PLEASE), and then outspeeds your entire team with little speed investment. It does the same thing as Excadrill before it, throws off the speed system.
TL;DR: Ban Deo-S because
Deoxys, in addition to being the game's best lead, is one of the best late game cleaners, or early game clearers. Say your MoxieMence sweeps damages a Scizor to 50%, puts a Gliscor to about 70%, and the Dragonie that revenged you took rock damage before it useed ExtremeSpeed. Also, let's just throw in a Tyranitar to that team. It sounds like a pretty strong core team to me. I send in my Deoxys after such a sweep, and instantly sweep what's left of your team using Superpower, HP [Fire], and Ice Beam. Now, why was I able to do this? Even if they had a Scarf Tyranitar? Well, it's because Deoxys is the fastest threat in the game, and can fully invest in offences without being hindered by a great need for Speed EV's.
The last reason I want Deoxys banned is because it throws off the speedy nature of the game. Since Gen III with the introduction of customize-able EV's, there have been speed tiers. Gen IV brought us the Choice Scarf to throw off those speed tiers, and make them more complex. With such a system, there are various speeds one aims for such as the 329 to beat positive base 100's. Sitting at the top of the OU Speed Tiers are Deoxys-S and Ninjask. One can function as a sweeper, and the other is a harmless Baton Passer. Deoxys-S throws off the entire Speed Tiers system, calls you a (BAN ME PLEASE), and then outspeeds your entire team with little speed investment. It does the same thing as Excadrill before it, throws off the speed system.
TL;DR: Ban Deo-S because
- It makes other leads unviable
- It's a ridiculous late-game sweeper or early-game clearer
- It throws off the speed tiers
For just nitpicking purposes, BB still smashes screens even if its targed against a Ghost.
Deoxys-S isn't broken. Yes, it's fast. Yes, it sets up hazzards like a pro. Yes, it can sweep.
BUT
it's extremely vulnerable to priority.
It's defences and HP are terrible, even WITH screens up
and each set has it's own counters.
and as a nitpick, ninetails isn't deadweight if you use it properly, it makes a decent sweeper
BUT
it's extremely vulnerable to priority.
It's defences and HP are terrible, even WITH screens up
and each set has it's own counters.
and as a nitpick, ninetails isn't deadweight if you use it properly, it makes a decent sweeper
It's only bad stat is HP. It's defenses are both decent at base 90. Plus it's near impossible to OHKO behind screens.
-What do you mean it makes dedicated leads unviable? Politoed, Ninetales, Ttar, and Hippo are still used as leads almost every time you face them, and there are very few dedicated leads besides those this gen anyway.
-No, it doesn't, and the fact that you compared to Excadrill is actually quite funny. Excadrill was not outsped by anything in OU at the time besides other Excadrill with 604 Speed. In fact, the only thing that is faster than that is Scarf Electrode, Ninjask after a Speed Boost, and Scarf Deoxys-S. THAT is throwing off the Speed tiers. When you are outsped by Scarf base 105's and above (which Deoxys-S is) it is not throwing the Speed tiers off at all, as there are quite a few viable pokes that outspeed that.
The only viable scarfers I can think of that are in that speed tier are Scarf Terrakion, Scarf Lati@s and MAYBE Scarf Gengar/Starmie(I don't think either can really afford to be locked into a single move).
Assuming Light Clay Deo-S, Timid Latios will always OHKO with Scarf Meteor, Timid Scarf Latias has a 53% chance to OHKO with Draco Meteor, Jolly Scarf Terrakion will never OHKO Deo-S even with X-scissor, Adamant Scarf Terrakion only has a 7% chance to OHKO Deoxys-S with X-scissor, Timid Scarf Gengar will always OHKO, and Modest Scarf Starmie never OHKOs with Hydro pump.
So your options on viable scarfers are:
- Lati@s
- Gengar
Enjoy "countering" Deo-S :)
btw, Brick Break is a terrible move and it's completely out classed, use it only if you want to use a very niche move to "beat" Deoxys.
I completely agree with this. For all of you out there saying that Brick Break will break both the screens, so Deoxys is easily countered, it is not as viable as you might think. Scizor is better off running Superpower on both a Choice Band and SD set, and Haxorus is better off running a Double Dance set.
The only thing that can viably run Brick Break is classic MixMence, which is extremely anti-metagame. However, you would never lead with it for fear of getting Ice Beamed on turn 1.
I agree, Brick Break is a terrible move, but CB Haxorus commonly runs it, and IMO, that set is much better than the doubledance set.
Second of all, who cares if you can't "counter" Deoxys-S? It guarantees one hazard. A lot of Pokemon can do that too, eg. Donphan, Azelf, Aerodactyl, etc. You guys don't go around calling that broken. It can set up at most 2 screens on competent players (usually it won't get SR up unless you really screwed up). You can even limit it to setting up one/no screen if you're using CB Scizor, Mixnite, Scarf Gengar, or Scarf Lati@s. Also, tbh, it is the easiest set of all to distinguish in Team Preview because of the bog standard sweepers that follow it. Why not use the Pokemon I mentioned to limit its capabilities? I'm sure there are more out there that are viable. Actually, you can even use an Offensive Deoxys-S with Shadow Ball and Extremespeed to stop it from setting up. Actually, it's a really effective method of dealing with it if it's such an issue.
Edit: and I just came up with this idea now? -.- ^
Donphan, Azelf, etc. do NOT guarantee anything.
Slower scarfers will still out-speed Azelf and Scizor can just BP him to hell, Aerodactly is pretty crappy nowadays IMO, and Donphan is slow as shit.
Neither CB Scizor or Mixnite can guarantee anything and you can go ahead and use Scarf Gengar/Lati@s...I personally just feel a base 110 speed pokemon that out-speeds nearly everything in OU just needs power, not more speed(again, just my opinion on them).
Deo-S to beat Deo-s. Seems legit to use something broken to beat something broken...yeah...no.
You don't really know much of what you're talking about, do you?
Donphan gets guaranteed hazards? Donphan is easy Taunt bait, while Deoxys pretty much can't be taunted because it'll taunt you before you taunt first. (did that make any sense? hmm)
And you guys are saying I don't know what I'm talking about... >.>
Azelf is guaranteed a layer of SR if the opponent does not have a faster Taunt. Doesn't matter if Scizor can BP it. It survives with a Focus Sash. >.> Same for Aerodactyl. Donphan can be Taunted, but by what? In all honesty, I haven't seen many Taunt users in OU recently other than Deoxys-S. -.-
Second of all, they do guarantee he is limited to one hazard/screen. Mixnite 2KOs regardless of what screen it puts up, as I pointed out earlier. This is also assuming it even puts up a screen since most will Taunt for fear of Dragon Dance. Scizor will also generally limit him to one screen since he only has a 33% chance of surviving BP after Reflect.
Also, Xephyr, ever heard of Magic Coat/Mirror? You should try it. ;)
Edit: There's nothing wrong with using other Deo-S to beat Deo-S. It was common in Gen 4 OU. What's stopping you from using it now? It's not like Excadrill where you had to have a Balloon to be a guaranteed check, and even then it wasn't guaranteed because of flinch slide... :/
Personally the only way my team was revived again (thanks Pocket for the reference) was using my own Deo-S, but this time I've gave it a mental herb so it can outdo Taunt Pranksters and other Deo-S.
So, that basically leaves the only true counters to support Deo-S, which was why this thread was made, to Espeon and Natu. So were basically back to bringing UU and NU pokemon to OU to deal with susptected Ubers before banning them. Yeah.
So, that basically leaves the only true counters to support Deo-S, which was why this thread was made, to Espeon and Natu. So were basically back to bringing UU and NU pokemon to OU to deal with susptected Ubers before banning them. Yeah.
Pocket you missed the point.
Of 'course Deoxys-S itself doesn't limit the diversity of the metagame because it is a support pokemon.
But guess what,Dragonite,Terakion and Volcarona behind screens do limit the diversity of the metagame.
And pls don't even talk about the other screeners since none of them do the job as good as Deoxys-S does it.
Last time I checked Espeon was OU and Xatu was UU. It has been this way since the Excadrill era. I don't see where you're going with this X5Dragon. :/
Edit:
Yeah, I've tested Deoxys-S, Deoxys-D, and Azelf. I've found Deoxys-D to be the most consistent, not Deoxys-S. :/
Deoxys-S can easily Taunt it <,<
Then there's Gyarados, some Gliscors, a couple Haxorus, Gyarados, etc.
The important Taunter is Deo-S since he's everywhere.
A 2HKO? Oh hey, that's JUST enough to put up Dual Screens as I don't see a real need to Taunt too quickly because Dual Screens means Dnite is pretty much at -1 and Deo-S is still faster when Dnite is at +1 speed.
Deo-S did his job and now you're kinda screwed.
I'll give you Scizor though.
Metagross66, ever heard of Deo-S not giving a rat's ass since he'll just put up screens regardless? You could try it :)
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