Deoxys-S Tiering Discussion

[Pocket]

yee - Broken or "too good" clicks to me when that one Deo-S set is destroying entire playstyles without anything special in the last 5 slots.

If you're implying that Deoxys-S can singlehandedly dismantle teams and that the 5 sweepers could be any run-of-the-mill Sweeper, you are terribly misinformed. There is a reason why Dragonite, Lucario, and Scizor are almost staples to this team, because they are fantastic sweepers in their own right, Deoxys-S or no Deoxys-S.

JellyOs - Okay, there's a reason Deoxys-S is a suspect. For starters it has the most ridiculous movepool in OU, in addition to Spikes, Stealth Rock (both rare for a psychic type) and even one of the most limited distributed moves in the game, ExtremeSpeed. His sets consist of near anything, to stopping any lead trying to set up rocks or screens with the fastest Taunt in the game, and after that Deo-S can set up rocks or dual screens on its own time while you switch and try to break past its bulk after the Reflect or Light Screen. I think Doexys should be banned not because of its game-breaking set up skills which allow nearly anything to set up after both Screens are up, but because it stops the viability of nearly any other dedicated lead. I think restricting what can even be used as a lead is ban worthy.

We don't ban mons because they have a rich movepool... (ie: Smeargle, Mew). The fact that Deoxys-S is almost restricted to its lead position makes it a manageable threat, imo.

Deoxys, in addition to being the game's best lead, is one of the best late game cleaners, or early game clearers. Say your MoxieMence sweeps damages a Scizor to 50%, puts a Gliscor to about 70%, and the Dragonie that revenged you took rock damage before it useed ExtremeSpeed. Also, let's just throw in a Tyranitar to that team. It sounds like a pretty strong core team to me. I send in my Deoxys after such a sweep, and instantly sweep what's left of your team using Superpower, HP [Fire], and Ice Beam. Now, why was I able to do this? Even if they had a Scarf Tyranitar? Well, it's because Deoxys is the fastest threat in the game, and can fully invest in offences without being hindered by a great need for Speed EV's.

In that scenario you portrayed, Deoxys-S will still be taken down by Scizor's Bullet Punch and / or Dragonite's ExtremeSpeed. In a metagame where priorities abound Deoxys-S isn't the most reliable cleaner, as I am experiencing first hand with my LO Deoxys-S. The fact that its best move has the "Draco Meteor syndrome," forces it to switch out, just to re-gain its special offense (although it is much less dependent on Psycho Boost than Latios is dependent on Draco Meteor).

The LO cleaner Deoxys-S still pretty much needs to fully invest in Speed to outrun crazy shit like Scarf Rotom-W and Scarf Landorus. Thus, these Deoxys-S can't even go +SpA nature to augment its borderline-good 95 offense. Its Atk is usually close to uninvested, supplying it a weak Superpower that barely OHKOs Tyranitar. It depends HEAVILY on its Life Orb.

The last reason I want Deoxys banned is because it throws off the speedy nature of the game. Since Gen III with the introduction of customize-able EV's, there have been speed tiers. Gen IV brought us the Choice Scarf to throw off those speed tiers, and make them more complex. With such a system, there are various speeds one aims for such as the 329 to beat positive base 100's. Sitting at the top of the OU Speed Tiers are Deoxys-S and Ninjask. One can function as a sweeper, and the other is a harmless Baton Passer. Deoxys-S throws off the entire Speed Tiers system, calls you a (BAN ME PLEASE), and then outspeeds your entire team with little speed investment. It does the same thing as Excadrill before it, throws off the speed system.

I guess Chlorophyll mons are the next to go out, because they are faster than Deoxys-S? Excadrill was not just fast - it was fast, strong, AND bulky. Deoxys-S is just fast.

 

[X5Dragon]

What I'm going with this is that banning Deo-S now is consistent with all the banning that has happened before because they all followed the same logic and reasons.

You can have D-Nite behind screens, just don't Taunt me while doing so please. Also, if I chose to do so I can use a sash cloyster, dd lum nite or any other pokemon of my choice to set up on you and actually succeed in outspeeding you unlike Deo-S.

 

[MetaGross66]

Deoxys-S can easily Taunt it <,<
A 2HKO? Oh hey, that's JUST enough to put up Dual Screens as I don't see a real need to Taunt too quickly because Dual Screens means Dnite is pretty much at -1 and Deo-S is still faster when Dnite is at +1 speed.
Deo-S did his job and now you're kinda screwed.

Ever heard of Extremespeed? I'm not talking about some obscure Dragonite set.... T_T

Yes, mixnite does get Extremespeed.

Also, azelf gets magic coat and U-turn if I'm not mistaken.

 

[alexwolf]

Last time I checked Espeon was OU and Xatu was UU. It has been this way since the Excadrill era. I don't see where you're going with this X5Dragon. :/

Edit:

Yeah, I've tested Deoxys-S, Deoxys-D, and Azelf. I've found Deoxys-D to be the most consistent, not Deoxys-S. :/

What you have found may be true for you bot not for everyone else.
You may prefer consistency but the good HO players out there prefer the untauntable,number 1 faster poke in the meta.

I don't care how Deoxys-D learns Magic Coat since it is a very gimmicky move and most good players can easily get around it.Also it doesn't stop setup sweepers.
So good luck to your Deoxys-D when you are facing an opposing Volcarona or Dragonite.
There is a good reason that Doexys-D is UU and you telling how its screener set is better than Deoxys-S's one is not going to convince anyone.

 

[MetaGross66]

What you have found may be true for you bot not for everyone else.
You may prefer consistency but the good HO players out there prefer the untauntable,number 1 faster poke in the meta.

I don't care how Deoxys-D learns Mirror Coat since it is a very gimmicky move and most good players can easily get around it.Also it doesn't stop setup sweepers.
So good luck to your Deoxys-D when you are facing an opposing Volcarona or Dragonite.
There is a good reason that Doexys-D is UU and you telling how its screener set is better than Deoxys-S's one is not going to convince anyone.

It beats Dragonite unlike Deoxys-S. Volcarona I'll give you since LO Bug Buzz is doing a ton of damage. The bulky set is much easier to handle, though, if you Taunt it first and set up your screen.

Edit: Where'd you get mirror coat from? O_O

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

Ever heard of Extremespeed? I'm not talking about some obscure Dragonite set.... T_T

Yes, mixnite does get Extremespeed.

Also, azelf gets magic coat and U-turn if I'm not mistaken.

Max Attack Dnite's ES VS 0/0 Deo-S: 44.40% - 52.70%
So I set up Reflect...22.41% - 26.56%

Also, Magic Coat and U-turn...I see...so...Reflect/Light Screen/Magic Coat/U-turn? Ehhh, no, definitely not replacing Deo-S.

I think you guys are missing something:

- It doesn't matter if Deo-D/Azelf/Whatever can set them up more times. What matters is that Deo-S fits PERFECTLY for HO teams because of its speed and offensive prowess that the other screeners just simply lack.
Deo-D is bulkier and can set them up more consistently? Doesn't matter, I just need to set them up once and set up with my own sweeper while you sit at -2.

 

[Benny in a Jet]

Scarf Mienshao actually's viable, outspeeds with Scarf, does something like 75% to 252/0 Deoxys. This limits it to one thing. Azelf, Infernape, and Tornadus (all with scarf) do the same thing without sucking. Use Ninjask or Accelgor if he scares you so much. -.-

 

[alexwolf]

It beats Dragonite unlike Deoxys-S. Volcarona I'll give you since LO Bug Buzz is doing a ton of damage. The bulky set is much easier to handle, though, if you Taunt it first and set up your screen.

Edit: Where'd you get mirror coat from? O_O

How does it beat Dragonite?
And sry for mirror coat i meant magic coat.
Finally pls stop mentioning magic coat for every poke that you compare with Deoxys-S.
It is ureliable and situational at best.

 

[MetaGross66]

Max Attack Dnite's ES VS 0/0 Deo-S: 44.40% - 52.70%
So I set up Reflect...22.41% - 26.56%

Also, Magic Coat and U-turn...I see...so...Reflect/Light Screen/Magic Coat/U-turn? Ehhh, no, definitely not replacing Deo-S.

I think you guys are missing something:

- It doesn't matter if Deo-D/Azelf/Whatever can set them up more times. What matters is that Deo-S fits PERFECTLY for HO teams because of its speed and offensive prowess that the other screeners just simply lack.
Deo-D is bulkier and can set them up more consistently? Doesn't matter, I just need to set them up once and set up with my own sweeper while you sit at -2.

Are you trolling me? I said mixnite. Not DDnite. Mixnite.

Quiet Dragonite Draco Meteor

vs. Timid Deoxys-S +LScreen : 49.3% - 58.2%

Quiet Dragonite Extremespeed

vs. Timid Deoxys-S +LScreen : 41.4% - 49%

Dragonite has a pretty good chance at that KO, and that's assuming the Deoxys is using Light Screen first turn instead of Reflect like you just demonstrated any regular Deoxys user would use. -.-

Edit: sorry if I'm getting out of hand. I just hate repeating myself over and over. Read over what I wrote please. :/

Alexwolf, Dragonite gets taunted before it can even set up so is pretty much forced to use a weak outrage or switch out. Reflect just makes outrage weaker letting him set up Light Screen and even Stealth Rocks. See? Also, Magic coat is a legitimate way of nerfing Deoxys's capabilities. IIRC, I battled Taylor under one of my nicknames on PO who used it on a Smeargle. idk what the reason was for it, but I'm sure it was a good one.

 

[dragonuser]

Are you trolling me? I said mixnite. Not DDnite. Mixnite.

Quiet Dragonite Draco Meteor

vs. Timid Deoxys-S +LScreen : 49.3% - 58.2%

Quiet Dragonite Extremespeed

vs. Timid Deoxys-S +LScreen : 41.4% - 49%

Dragonite has a pretty good chance at that KO, and that's assuming the Deoxys is using Light Screen first turn instead of Reflect like you just demonstrated any regular Deoxys user would use. -.-

Edit: sorry if I'm getting out of hand. I just hate repeating myself over and over. Read over what I wrote please. :/

Alexwolf, Dragonite gets taunted before it can even set up so is pretty much forced to use a weak outrage or switch out. Reflect just makes outrage weaker letting him set up Light Screen and even Stealth Rocks. See? Also, Magic coat is a legitimate way of nerfing Deoxys's capabilities. IIRC, I battled Taylor under one of my nicknames on PO who used it on a Smeargle. idk what the reason was for it, but I'm sure it was a good one.

who runs mixnite commonly? the fact that you need to use an obscure set just to beat deoxys(and one of its 3 sets at that) just proves moreso that it belongs in ubers

 

[Spork]

Brick Break is a bad move like Rapid Spin is a bad move. If dual screens fucks your team over so badly for some reason, use Brick Break. It's the same as using Rapid Spin on a hazard weak team. Oh wait, it isn't actually the same, because brick break has actual usable base power and a good offensive typing.

Saying "having to run brick break to break screens makes deoxys overpowered" is just mind numbingly ignorant and reveals the prevalent attitude of refusing change.

 

[MetaGross66]

Saying "having to run brick break to break screens makes deoxys overpowered" is just mind numbingly ignorant and reveals the prevalent attitude of refusing change.

O_O This is exactly what I've been trying to get at the whole time. Thank you.

Mixnite is not an obscure set. It is totally viable and it beats all of Deoxys's sets. That is just a bonus of using it. It makes for an amazing anti lead that applies offensive pressure early on in the game through surprise factor and sheer power. Use it before judging it. Change isn't as bad as you guys make it seem. :/

 

[gamer40000]

Brick Break is a bad move like Rapid Spin is a bad move. If dual screens fucks your team over so badly for some reason, use Brick Break. It's the same as using Rapid Spin on a hazard weak team. Oh wait, it isn't actually the same, because brick break has actual usable base power and a good offensive typing.

Saying "having to run brick break to break screens makes deoxys overpowered" is just mind numbingly ignorant and reveals the prevalent attitude of refusing change.

Tell me, did anyone ever use Brick Break for that purpose? And which would you prepare for more, hazards which make so many 2HKOS into OHKOS or dual screens that only last 8 turns.

 

[New World Order]

O_O This is exactly what I've been trying to get at the whole time. Thank you.

Mixnite is not an obscure set. It is totally viable and it beats all of Deoxys's sets. That is just a bonus of using it. It makes for an amazing anti lead that applies offensive pressure early on in the game through surprise factor and sheer power. Use it before judging it. Change isn't as bad as you guys make it seem. :/

First of all, I'd just like to say the fact that you think Deoxys-D is more effective than Deoxys-S means I can't take your opinions seriously. Deoxys-D just plain does not have the Speed to get up Dual Screens et all reliably. Furthermore, it is vulnerable to Taunt, and Magic Coat really isn't reliable since it is highly prediction dependent. If your opponent uses a turn to use say, Dragon Dance, as you try to Magic Coat the Taunt, you're instantly put in a bad position. Furthermore, Deoxys-D has no offensive presence whatsoever. What makes Deoxys-S so great is that it can get up SR, or Screens or whatever, and get a KO too! Deoxys-D has... Night Shade...

There is just one problem about using MixNite, what else are you fucking going to beat besides Deoxys-S? Salamence is much better as a wallbreaker, its superior Speed and Special Attack allow it to punch so many more holes. You're running a Draco Meteor set too, which is just plain worse than MixMence. At least the rain abuser Dragonite has Hurricane to set it apart, and even rain abuser DNite is in most cases, a worse option than MixMence. Since Dragonite has weaker offenses than Salamence across the board, it needs to fully invest in both Attack and Special Attack, as well as run a Life Orb, to pose as a threatening wallbreaker. However, this means that Dragonite is outsped by everything, and the fact that Life Orb removes Multi Scale isn't going to help either. As well, by using a MixNite, you're missing out on some of the best sets in the metagame such as DD Lum and SubDD. Literally the only thing MixNite has over MixMence is Extremespeed, and it really shouldn't be used for anything besides beating Deoxys-S. This is like using Cresselia in DPP OU, yes it counters Salamence, but it gets fucking owned by two of the three most dominant Pokemon in that metagame.

If you're implying that Deoxys-S can singlehandedly dismantle teams and that the 5 sweepers could be any run-of-the-mill Sweeper, you are terribly misinformed. There is a reason why Dragonite, Lucario, and Scizor are almost staples to this team, because they are fantastic sweepers in their own right, Deoxys-S or no Deoxys-S.

While it is true that Dragonite, Lucario, and Scizor are good sweepers in their own right, they are not Darkrai, they need support to facilitate a sweep. In most cases, it would take 2/3 Pokemon to support them. However, Deoxys-S fills the roles of basically all these support Pokemon. Want hazards? Deoxys-S can provide all bar Toxic Spikes. Want Dual Screens? Deoxys-S is pretty much a surefire way to provide them. Want a check/ counter dead? Deoxys-S can be tailored to KO pretty much anything. Normally, you wont be able to fit 5 of these destructive sweepers onto one team, because you need to dedicate 3 teamslots to support Pokemon. However, with Deoxys-S, you don't need to dedicate multiple slots to support Pokemon, and you can instead toss another random sweeper.

We don't ban mons because they have a rich movepool... (ie: Smeargle, Mew). The fact that Deoxys-S is almost restricted to its lead position makes it a manageable threat, imo.

The thing is, most of these Pokemon lack the means to make full use of their gigantic movepools. Smeargle's shit stats mean its pretty much limited to Baton Passing. Mew does not have the Speed to sweep, whereas Deoxys-S can pretty much outspeed anything, even most Choice Scarfers. So Mew is pretty much limited to support or defensive roles in the end.

In that scenario you portrayed, Deoxys-S will still be taken down by Scizor's Bullet Punch and / or Dragonite's ExtremeSpeed. In a metagame where priorities abound Deoxys-S isn't the most reliable cleaner, as I am experiencing first hand with my LO Deoxys-S. The fact that its best move has the "Draco Meteor syndrome," forces it to switch out, just to re-gain its special offense (although it is much less dependent on Psycho Boost than Latios is dependent on Draco Meteor).

The thing is with Deoxys-S, you can never tell what moves its holding. You have to scout it before you can safely bring in, say Scizor. Because if you switch in as they use Hidden Power Fire, gg. I do however agree that LO Deoxys-S is just a very good Pokemon, not broken. But support Deoxys-S is without a doubt too much for the metagame.

The LO cleaner Deoxys-S still pretty much needs to fully invest in Speed to outrun crazy shit like Scarf Rotom-W and Scarf Landorus. Thus, these Deoxys-S can't even go +SpA nature to augment its borderline-good 95 offense. Its Atk is usually close to uninvested, supplying it a weak Superpower that barely OHKOs Tyranitar. It depends HEAVILY on its Life Orb.

The thing is, most Pokemon need to use a Choice Scarf to outspeed these threats. The fact that Deoxys-S is capable of using a Life Orb while still outspeeding some of the most dangerous threats in the metagame is not a negative trait. So what if it relies on that Life Orb, most Pokemon wont even be able to switch moves.

I guess Chlorophyll mons are the next to go out, because they are faster than Deoxys-S? Excadrill was not just fast - it was fast, strong, AND bulky. Deoxys-S is just fast.

Excadrill wishes it had Dual Screens, Hazards, Taunt, Magic Coat blahblahblahblahblah. As well, I still stand by my opinion a month ago that Excadrill was a stabilizing force in the metagame. It prevented Hyper Offense, Sun Offense, and Rain stall alike from being overly dominant. Like honestly, are there any other viable playstyles in the metagame nowadays? Nearly every successful team is either Deoxys-S + 5 Offensive Pokes, Sun Offense, or Rain stall. I think we would be better off by just bringing Exca back down rather than ban Deoxys-S, because Deoxys-S+5 sweepers would still be a viable playstyle for Hyper Offense as long as you pack something like Air Balloon Terrakion. Once Techniloom is released, the Exca+Deoxys-S will achieve balance, as Techniloom will be HO's answer to Excadrill, but Excadrill will still act as enough of a deterrence to keep HO from being too dominant.

In essence, I feel one of two things need to occur for the metagame to achieve balance, but NOT BOTH. Either Excadrill comes down, or Deoxys-S goes.

 

[NoJohns]

What I'm going with this is that banning Deo-S now is consistent with all the banning that has happened before because they all followed the same logic and reasons.

The only support ban that we've had this generation was Drizzle+SwSw, and you can't honestly say that Stealth Rock and a layer of Spikes or Dual Screen support is as threatening as the broken trio + Manaphy blasting off powerful and super speedy moves. I will admit that this period is looking reminiscent to that suspect testing round, but I don't think that the support Deo-S provides is as powerful as the support Politoed gave Swift Swim teams.

 

[X5Dragon]

No offense, but Deo taunting + adding screens/layers of hazards is just as deadly. Not only it can't be stopped, but while trying to remove it the other pokemons will benefit from the support and will use it to set up even further, using common tactics like smash passing, paraflinching, scarf spinblockers, scarf sweepers and SD ES pokemon.

It's the straw that broke the camel's back.

 

[MetaGross66]

First of all, I'd just like to say the fact that you think Deoxys-D is more effective than Deoxys-S means I can't take your opinions seriously. Deoxys-D just plain does not have the Speed to get up Dual Screens et all reliably. Furthermore, it is vulnerable to Taunt, and Magic Coat really isn't reliable since it is highly prediction dependent. If your opponent uses a turn to use say, Dragon Dance, as you try to Magic Coat the Taunt, you're instantly put in a bad position. Furthermore, Deoxys-D has no offensive presence whatsoever. What makes Deoxys-S so great is that it can get up SR, or Screens or whatever, and get a KO too! Deoxys-D has... Night Shade...

There is just one problem about using MixNite, what else are you fucking going to beat besides Deoxys-S? Salamence is much better as a wallbreaker, its superior Speed and Special Attack allow it to punch so many more holes. You're running a Draco Meteor set too, which is just plain worse than MixMence. At least the rain abuser Dragonite has Hurricane to set it apart, and even rain abuser DNite is in most cases, a worse option than MixMence. Since Dragonite has weaker offenses than Salamence across the board, it needs to fully invest in both Attack and Special Attack, as well as run a Life Orb, to pose as a threatening wallbreaker. However, this means that Dragonite is outsped by everything, and the fact that Life Orb removes Multi Scale isn't going to help either. As well, by using a MixNite, you're missing out on some of the best sets in the metagame such as DD Lum and SubDD. Literally the only thing MixNite has over MixMence is Extremespeed, and it really shouldn't be used for anything besides beating Deoxys-S. This is like using Cresselia in DPP OU, yes it counters Salamence, but it gets fucking owned by two of the three most dominant Pokemon in that metagame.

It is bulky. That is all that matters in this offensively oriented metagame. You either have to be able to take a hit or outspeed. Deoxys-D can take a hit. Tell me, what is Taunting it other than Deoxys-S? It has a usable Speed stat. Uxie is very similar, but it also has Memento meaning it can turn whatever it wants into set up fodder for a turn for a sweeper even if screens aren't up in exchange for its life. I agree, Deoxys-D doesn't have any offensive presence, but when you see 5 sweepers behind Deoxys-S in team preview it really doesn't have much offensive presence either...

I'm not going to get into that Dragonite vs. Salamence argument. My point has already been proven in the General Metagame discussion thread (looks like Gen. Empoleon deleted all our posts :/). Anyway, you can't compare the two to Cresselia since Mixnite isn't necessarily getting owned by anything on the top 10 list. :/

Basically, what I wrote there was that Mixnite doesn't have to invest in its Speed and Mixmence does to be anywhere near effective (Mixnite has superior bulk, enough speed to outpace some walls, and enough fire power to break through some walls). Mixmence has to invest in Speed so its offenses are actually inferior unless it invests in only a little bit of Speed instead of going all out unlike Dragonite who can afford to. Seriously, try it before knocking it out. They play really differently, too. I use Mixnite as an early game momentum grabber that can also break some walls. Mixmence is just meant to power through everything (even then I can hardly get in two hits before it dies). Mixnite's effectiveness lies in it's sheer power, bulk, and surprise factor.

Edit: Actually, I found it right here. Read my posts, and feel free to send me a PM if you want to continue. I don't wanna litter this thread. ^_^

Lee pretty much summed up my argument in that thread.

You might need to reassess your opinion on Dragonite once you've actually bothered to learn his stats. ^_~
Dragonite actually has 100 Base SpA, not 80 like you imply. This, combined with the fact that Salamence often insists on running a +Spe nature whilst Dragonite is much more inclined to run a +Offense nature means Dragonite will often hit harder off the bat than his younger brother.

Complete Legitimacy, read what's in the link, and then respond. -.-

 

[complete legitimacy]

It is bulky. That is all that matters in this offensively oriented metagame. You either have to be able to take a hit or outspeed. Deoxys-D can take a hit. Tell me, what is Taunting it other than Deoxys-S? It has a usable Speed stat. Uxie is very similar, but it also has Memento meaning it can turn whatever it wants into set up fodder for a turn for a sweeper even if screens aren't up in exchange for its life. I agree, Deoxys-D doesn't have any offensive presence, but when you see 5 sweepers behind Deoxys-S in team preview it really doesn't have much offensive presence either...

I'm not going to get into that Dragonite vs. Salamence argument. My point has already been proven in the General Metagame discussion thread (looks like Gen. Empoleon deleted all our posts :/). Anyway, you can't compare the two to Cresselia since Mixnite isn't necessarily getting owned by anything on the top 10 list. :/

Basically, what I wrote there was that Mixnite doesn't have to invest in its Speed and Mixmence does to be anywhere near effective (Mixnite has superior bulk, enough speed to outpace some walls, and enough fire power to break through some walls). Mixmence has to invest in Speed so its offenses are actually inferior unless it invests in only a little bit of Speed instead of going all out unlike Dragonite who can afford to. Seriously, try it before knocking it out. They play really differently, too. I use Mixnite as an early game momentum grabber that can also break some walls. Mixmence is just meant to power through everything (even then I can hardly get in two hits before it dies). Mixnite's effectiveness lies in it's sheer power, bulk, and surprise factor.

Edit: Actually, I found it right here. Read my posts, and feel free to send me a PM if you want to continue. I don't wanna litter this thread. ^_^

As New World Order pointed out, MixNite is completely outclassed by MixMence. I don't feel as of we're littering the thread. This thread is meant to discuss the brokenness of Deoxys-S. Right now we are discussing how a Deoxys check is a niche Pokemon. The only reason Dragonite is superior to Salamence is because it has Multiscale. If you remove that, then Dragonite is outclassed by Salamence in practically every way. Like I said before, you're using an obscure counter.

If you must use an obscure counter to deal with a certain threat, then it is most certainly Uber. MixNite is an obscure counter because once it makes it first move, it loses the only advantage it has over Salamence, and is thus completely outclassed.

Metagross66, your point is invalid. While does invest a good amount in speed, it is nowhere near max and can run a Rash nature. The standard spread hits harder on the special side than Dnite, while also retaining a good amount of attack and speed. Salamence hits what it needs to hit, it doesn't really need Espeed. Even if it got it, it wouldn't use it. Dragonite also loses Superpower to get Multiscale, thus losing its niche even more. Intimidate on Mence is better than Multiscale on Nite. Thus both Draco Meteor and Fire Blast are better on Mence than they are on Nite.

If you choose to run Brick Break, then you must choose between Espeed and Roost. If you run both Espeed and Roost, you miss out on the ability to counter Tyranitar, Blissey, and Heatran. Thus Brick Break and Roost are also better on Mence because while they can run the same set, Salamence will always do it better. If you choose to run Espeed so Nite can actually have something over Mence, it becomes more niche and less viable.

And saying MixNite has more of a surprise value is also wrong. It's #1 in usage. The very fact that people use MixNite makes MixMence better because nobody knows what to expect, and MixNite being unpredictable makes MixMence more unpredictable because they will only prepare for Dnite.

 

[Codraroll]

If Deoxys (or anything not Steel/Rock/Ghost, I guess) is leading, you could give Porygon-Z a try. Slap a Focus Sash or something on it.

Should you ever meet Deoxys in a lead position, he won't have many options. Either, he can Taunt to prevent a potential Trick Room Setup, setup himself, or go for the KO straight away. Either scenario involves Deoxys eating a Hyper Beam, which would do massive damage. Even bulkier Deoxys (Deoxii?) would take about 75% from it, even behind a Light Screen.
This basically leaves Deoxys with the options of attacking and being KO'd, put up a Light screen because that's its only hope of survival (which, to be fair, gives it a guaranteed survival), or being flatly KO'd setting up Hazards or Reflect or something. This would also leave Porygon-Z with full HP and an intact Sash, meaning it could revenge something later. You could also predict a switch, set up a Trick Room and do stuff with it. Rhyperior sweep or whatever floats your boat. If you get to this point and all goes well, any strategy should work wonders because your foe clearly isn't in his right mind.

Congratulations. Deoxys is now hopefully out of the game, and your Porygon-Z is a sitting duck, reducing it to a somewhat 5v5-battle.


Then again, as with most of my Theorymon, situational to the point of absurdity. If the foe leads with Tyranitar, for instance...

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

If Deoxys (or anything not Steel/Rock/Ghost, I guess) is leading, you could give Porygon-Z a try. Slap a Focus Sash or something on it.

Should you ever meet Deoxys in a lead position, he won't have many options. Either, he can Taunt to prevent a potential Trick Room Setup, setup himself, or go for the KO straight away. Either scenario involves Deoxys eating a Hyper Beam, which would do massive damage. Even bulkier Deoxys (Deoxii?) would take about 75% from it, even behind a Light Screen.
This basically leaves Deoxys with the options of attacking and being KO'd, put up a Light screen because that's its only hope of survival (which, to be fair, gives it a guaranteed survival), or being flatly KO'd setting up Hazards or Reflect or something. This would also leave Porygon-Z with full HP and an intact Sash, meaning it could revenge something later. You could also predict a switch, set up a Trick Room and do stuff with it. Rhyperior sweep or whatever floats your boat. If you get to this point and all goes well, any strategy should work wonders because your foe clearly isn't in his right mind.

Congratulations. Deoxys is now hopefully out of the game, and your Porygon-Z is a sitting duck, reducing it to a somewhat 5v5-battle.


Then again, as with most of my Theorymon, situational to the point of absurdity. If the foe leads with Tyranitar, for instance...

Awesome!
The best part is when you realize you're using Hyper Beam Porygon-Z with a Focus Sash whose only function is to sit there trying to kill Deoxys as it sets up Dual Screens. You then forfeit, knowing you actually didn't stop Deoxys and gave the opponent an extra turn to set up.

 

[X5Dragon]

You use scarf Pory-Z, he sets up reflect with his sash. Next up, he brings terrakion/scizor/lucario/nite, sd/rockpolishe/dd, and then you say gg.

 

[Ningildo]

The only viable scarfers I can think of that are in that speed tier are Scarf Terrakion, Scarf Lati@s and MAYBE Scarf Gengar/Starmie(I don't think either can really afford to be locked into a single move).

Assuming Light Clay Deo-S, Timid Latios will always OHKO with Scarf Meteor, Timid Scarf Latias has a 53% chance to OHKO with Draco Meteor, Jolly Scarf Terrakion will never OHKO Deo-S even with X-scissor, Adamant Scarf Terrakion only has a 7% chance to OHKO Deoxys-S with X-scissor, Timid Scarf Gengar will always OHKO, and Modest Scarf Starmie never OHKOs with Hydro pump.

So your options on viable scarfers are:

- Lati@s
- Gengar

Enjoy "countering" Deo-S :)

btw, Brick Break is a terrible move and it's completely out classed, use it only if you want to use a very niche move to "beat" Deoxys.

So now it can only set up one screen / hazard, but it stays broken?
Really?
So it got SR up.
Don't use SR weak pokemon too much in that battle.
So it got Spikes up.
Don't use Spikes affected too much in that battle.
And that's common battling sense.
As for the Dual Screener,
It got Reflect up?
Kill the opposing team with Special attacks.
It got Light Screen up?
Kill the opposing team with Physical attacks.
Have a stall team?
Phaze. With WW / Roar or Dragon Tail till Screens run out.
I mean, that is STALL. Your goal is to stay alive as long as possible, preferably till your opponent is down from stalling so long.
Where is it's brokenness?
I can't seem to find it.

 

[Fluffy Otters]

What is wrong with Magic Coat Deo-D? A moveset of Snatch/Magic Coat/Recover/Toxic might get walled to hell and back by steels and Gengar but it is hard to destroy. Snatch allows you to steal Heal Bells, Soft Boiled/Roosts, Dragon Dances, etc and very few moves that aren't Choiced will do over 50% to Deoxys. If a move does more, you know it's banded or Draco Meteor (which it can outstall if enough health remains). Snatching Dragonites D-Dance and Toxic on it is fun or if it's banded, wall it with Skarmory and set up Spikes. Without Spikes and Stealth Rock Deoxys-S is useless, the Life Orb set will just kill itself through Recoil, and the Dual Screen Set...I'm not sure if Screens can be snatched but it can at least steal any set up moves.

Not even Adamant Choice Band Tyranitar can ohko and if it's not banded, you could just toxic on it and stall it out unless Crunch lowers it's defense and on banded, send in Terakion. It can even beat Tyranitar with Toxic if
they lock themselves in Pursuit. Deoxys-D is seriously hard to kill and although not good on teams that want fast offense, on a stall or mixed he's amazing. I'm surprised one of the best walls available isn't used.

 

[alexwolf]

What is wrong with Magic Coat Deo-D? A moveset of Snatch/Magic Coat/Recover/Toxic might get walled to hell and back by steels and Gengar but it is hard to destroy. Snatch allows you to steal Heal Bells, Soft Boiled/Roosts, Dragon Dances, etc and very few moves that aren't Choiced will do over 50% to Deoxys. If a move does more, you know it's banded or Draco Meteor (which it can outstall if enough health remains). Snatching Dragonites D-Dance and Toxic on it is fun or if it's banded, wall it with Skarmory and set up Spikes. Without Spikes and Stealth Rock Deoxys-S is useless, the Life Orb set will just kill itself through Recoil, and the Dual Screen Set...I'm not sure if Screens can be snatched but it can at least steal any set up moves.

Not even Adamant Choice Band Tyranitar can ohko and if it's not banded, you could just toxic on it and stall it out unless Crunch lowers it's defense and on banded, send in Terakion. It can even beat Tyranitar with Toxic if
they lock themselves in Pursuit. Deoxys-D is seriously hard to kill and although not good on teams that want fast offense, on a stall or mixed he's amazing. I'm surprised one of the best walls available isn't used.

And then you realize that not even god himself has the prediction skills to make this set work...

 

[X5Dragon]

People predicted this would happen with Excadrill + Thundy being banned, I never expected it to be this bad really. I mean if next month's stats come out, I expect over 50% of teams to revolve around deo.


Edit: And around 80% of 1337 players using it.