CAP 13 CAP 2 - Part 4 - Stat Limits

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People need to be less scared of breaking this CaP by giving it even just decent stats. Once you've sketched a boosting move you're just a mediocre Pokémon with a boosting move and mediocre stats and coverage. Nothing more.

Edit: I believe people need to think more in terms such as this: "Once CaP2 has sketched Quiver Dance, what does it have over Volcarona?"

In many cases the answer seems to be unpredictability and not that much else. Unpredictability can only take a Pokémon so far.
 
FinalEquin0x said:
I think Poor/Below Average Special Sweepiness has been decided. Otherwise a Quiver Dance can break this pokemon instantly

So then we should rely on Physical Sweepiness for a some STAB moves such as Woodhammer and hopefully some other version of Shadow Strike?

Special Tankiness should be high probably the highest stat because common switchins such as Heatran and Hydregion will be packing resistances and some Special Attacks to try and end this CAP with. 105-120

Physical Tankiness should be kept to about the 90-100 range. It will probably have WoW on top of resistances to Normal and Fighting and a resistance to Ground all of which are the most prominent physical attacking types (the first one less so then the others.)
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Poor/Below Average SS wouldn't really lend itself towards the 'somewhat balanced bulky offense style'. For comparison, Beautifly gets Quiver Dance; its Special Sweepiness lies in the 'Above Average' range, yet it is barely seen, even in NU. Though it is significantly less bulky than Sketchy will be, you can see how an 'Above Average' SS limit is suitable for Sketchy.

The PS limit should be resting around the Above Average to Good range, as Grass/Ghost is a poor physical attacking combination, but this has been addressed already.

However I'm thinking we could be slightly more lenient with Sketchy's defenses, but not so much as to break a Shell Smash set. Being weak to Ice Shard and neutral to Bullet Punch suitably hinders the viability of a Shell Smash set, so its defenses can afford to be set a little higher.

Therefore, I propose a ST limit of Very Good due to Sketchy's threats in Heatran and Hydreigon, but a PT of Good, due to its immunitites in Fighting and Normal not warranting anything higher than this, and also to make a Shell Smash set somewhat balanced.
 
Porii Sames said:
Take a look at Lilligant. Also has grass typing, also is neutral to Rocks, also gets Quiver, but has a terrible movepool and therefore isn't used much. Its stats also hold it down.

I don't want Sketchy to end up like Lilligant.
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The thing holding it up above Lilligant is the fact that it has a good movepool with its Ghost stabs and a coverage move. However, I'll agree that it should have something above Lilli and Volcy in terms of stats, because just switching in more and having a different set of coverage moves won't really be that spectacular of a change.

Physical sweepiness: Very good. This will give it the ability to hit hard with somewhat weak ghost stabs like Shadow Claw or whatever, and make use of Dragons Dance, Agility or Swords Dance. Also gives possibility of Choice Band or physical Scarf set, especially the latter if its ghostly nature gives it trick.

Physical tankiness: Good. Tanking hits should be pretty important for it, and it shouldn't need too much of this to take a fighting-, normal-, or ground-type attack, or a waterfall for those rain teams.

Special sweepiness: Good. Everyone's going on about Quiver Dance and stuff, which will also give it the advantage of a Shadow Ball or especially Giga Drain being boosted. We also shouldn't overlook a Nasty Plot set, which will make things like Focus Blast if we choose to have it work well. Also, Seed Flare getting sketched gives it a killer arsenal for a mixed set.

Special Tankiness: Great/Excellent/Whatever we call above Very Good. Yes, that is the full technical term. Everyone agrees that seeing its counters and its resistances will make it want to be heavily invested in special tankiness, especially since boosting moves outside the more offensively-oriented Quiver Dance.

The difference here between Lilligant and Volcarona is (A) the ability to go offensively mixed, and (B) the idea of not having completely shitty stats. Due to sketch, it should certainly be able to pull off both offensive and defensive roles, so given these maximums, it shouldn't be too hard to pull off the bulky offensive, purely defensive, purely offensive, or powerful defensive roles with a generally rounded stat base.
 
Fizz said:
People need to be less scared of breaking this CaP by giving it even just decent stats. Once you've sketched a boosting move you're just a mediocre Pokémon with a boosting move and mediocre stats and coverage. Nothing more.

Edit: I believe people need to think more in terms such as this: "Once CaP2 has sketched Quiver Dance, what does it have over Volcarona?"

In many cases the answer seems to be unpredictability and not that much else. Unpredictability can only take a Pokémon so far.
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Perhaps the correct question to ask is "why the hell am I trying to optimize a Pokemon with EVERY MOVE IN THE GAME solely to be a Quiver Dance sweeper?"
 
I believe we should go with what the others are saying with it being physical offensively but special defensively. I can't really add much to the argument beyond what's been already said, although special attack shouldn't be too low to completely remove the possibility of going mixed.

PS:Good

SS:Poor

PT:Good

ST:Very good
 
I just want to let everyone know that after work today, I will be sitting down and dedicating the rest of my night to sorting through this and coming to a conclusion. That will be in like 14 hours from now, just for your edification. If you have any last words to say before then, you should get them in beforehand!
 
some guy who did another ghost/grass CAP said:
This post will be stupid at first, but it becomes relevant, I promise.

On another forum I went to, we had our own CAP, of which was Ghost/Grass, and was more towards bulk than offense, but it wasn't weak. This was 4th Gen, however.

It had the amazing abilities Shield Dust and Immunity as well as the marvelous base stats of 121 / 55 / 127 / 90 / 103 / 64. It had every move it could've possibly desired in terms of support. Every Status. Subseed. Pain Split. Screens. Memento. Synthesis. Hell, if it was 5th Gen, we might've slapped Butterfly Dance on the thing due to its art style. That wasn't even close to the end of it either. It didn't even need Sketch if we wanted to give it the move.

This, my friends, is the full-out description of a BAD IDEA. Do NOT give this thing abnormally high overall bulk. Do NOT let it have an attacking stat that is respectable without a boosting move or with a move of obscene power. Do NOT allow it to fill nearly a dozen roles without even needing to touch sketch.

This is a good example of what NOT to do. What stats ARE far too high. What movepool IS too large.

This is learning from experience, my friends. Some are suggesting Attacking stats even past 100. Hell, experience says even a stat of 90 can be overwhelming.
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We've been there before. It was called Krilowatt.

I think Deck's BSR is what we want, but I think Very Good Physical Sweepiness is a bit too high. Remember, this thing can Sketch Shell Smash or Gear Shift/Coil and with great stats, it will be able to take a Bullet Punch or two. If we lower Physical Sweepiness to Good, I think we'll be able to contain this CAP better.

somebody else said:
Unpredictability can only take a Pokémon so far.
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Unpredictability takes a Pokemon very, very far.
 
Pwnemon said:
Perhaps the correct question to ask is "why the hell am I trying to optimize a Pokemon with EVERY MOVE IN THE GAME solely to be a Quiver Dance sweeper?"
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Right. And the answer to that is probably that Quiver Dance is, of course depending on the Pokémon, one of the best moves there is. I'm not saying that we should try to make CaP2 an amazing Quiver Dance sweeper; I simply saw that somebody had posted something about giving CaP2 mediocre stats to avoid a quiver dance "insta-win". The way things are looking, that's not a huge risk. All I'm saying.

Edit: People see Sketch and think "huge movepool". No. Not necessarily.
 
Rising_Dusk said:
Now we move on to the beginning stages of CAP 2's eventual stat distribution. This isn't where the community will submit stat spreads, but rather where we will discuss the upper limits of CAP 2's stats in order to ensure that things are held together in a coherent manner when we actually do submit spreads.
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I just want to remind everyone of the bolded above, taken from the OP.


PARA TIME

PS - Very Good
This guy will be set on the special side. On the special side of the spectrum there are boosting moves that are simply fantastic. For the sake of abusing sketch to its fullest, Sketchy needs to maintain some semblence of unpredictability. With grass ghost stabs, she needs all the help she can get. So I propose an unbalaced spread.

SS - Above Average
With the brilliant boosting moves known as tail glow and quiver dance, this guy will be a brilliant special sweeper, and while its stabs are rather unflattering to any kind of sweeping, on the special end it has hidden power to help with that.

PT - Good
People talk about how scizor shoud be able to wreck a shell smash variant with bullet punch, but im worried about ice shard, and sucker punch. Both hit for super effective damage, sucker punch with stab will have a BP of 240. Which is scary. I don't want this guy to be OHKO'd by alakazam's suckerpunch. And this is BULKY offense, not glass cannon status. I also don't want to ruin sketchy's opportunity of a support set.

ST - Very Good
This guy should be bulky. Grass Ghost typing lends itself to be specially defensive, and allows it to set up over alot of bulky waters. So ya. And to maintain the focus of bulky offense.
 
I really think that this pokemon should have no more than average stats offensively. We know that it's going to get every boosting move in the game, including SS, QD, Shift Gear, and Coil, as well as Tail Glow, and SD.

If we give this pokemon offensive stats similar to some of the current OU pokemon, I think that it will be able to plow through anything not immune after use of a good boosting move.

As far as defenses go, I think that both defenses should be higher than either of the offenses, but not so high as to need no investment to be bulky. I think that Sketchmon should ideally have to run EVs in both defense (to counter/check specific threats) and offense (to have enough power to become a threat itself after a boosting move).

If a 252/252 spread becomes the best set for this pokemon, then I think that we have made it too one-sided.

Physical Tankiness (PT)
Above Average

Physical Sweepiness (PS)
Good (Sketchmon can also get physical moves with absurd base power, such as V-Create/SF)

Special Tankiness (ST)
Above Average

Special Sweepiness (SS)
Average
 
Pikapwnd said:
People talk about how scizor shoud be able to wreck a shell smash variant with bullet punch, but im worried about ice shard, and sucker punch. Both hit for super effective damage, sucker punch with stab will have a BP of 240. Which is scary. I don't want this guy to be OHKO'd by alakazam's suckerpunch. And this is BULKY offense, not glass cannon status. I also don't want to ruin sketchy's opportunity of a support set.
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I feel a bit stupid for actually having to calc this, but the only fully evolved pokemon that can sometimes be OHKO'd by regular Alakazam's Sucker Punch is Deoxys-A (50 HP, 20 defense).


Your concerns about Ice Shard are something that worries me. I went to calc, and no matter how we make this pokemons stats, it is going to get 2HKO'd by Banded Mamoswine's Ice Shard. If we want CAP to be able to survive Adamant Banded Ice Shard by the skin of its teeth, we need HP and Defense of at least 86, which would fall into the Good range for PT.
 
I have to second what Fizz is saying. People are trying to make this too weak as an overreaction to moves such as Quiver Dance and Shell Smash, even though pokemon like Volcarona, and Cloyster exist to show that these moves can be managable. I know we're discussing "sweepiness" and not individual stats, but it's worth pointing out that with out a special attack stat of 230 our Shadow Ball will be weaker than Volcarona's Fire Blast. I know that's poll jumping somewhat but frankly it would be stupid not to take into account the fact that we don't have any 120 BP STAB to choose from (aside from Petal Dance lol) on the special side and I'm only pointing out what our typing has already determined. Even Liligant's 110/90 stats go beyond what most people are talking about and yet it wasn't deemed broken even in RU despite having Quiver Dance and Sleep Powder. If we give sketchy useless special sweepiness he's not going to be a good quiver dancer, and he's going to be even worse at anything else special he wants to do. We'd be shooting ourselves in the foot. Cloyster is a similar case, even though his low speed actually makes his sweepiness ratings pretty low. It doesn't really matter because he outspeeds nearly everything at +2 and he's much stronger again because of the high powered STAB. He even has a massive def... i mean physical tankiness. What we need here is low-ish special sweepiness, not devastatingly poor special sweepiness. There's nothing wrong with setting the limit at "good" and knowing that not everyone who submits a spread will push that too the limit. There's a lot of room for play between pwnemon's suggested NU spread and Lolcat's obscene warning spread.
 
Lunar Fist said:
I really think that this pokemon should have no more than average stats offensively. We know that it's going to get every boosting move in the game, including SS, QD, Shift Gear, and Coil, as well as Tail Glow, and SD.

If we give this pokemon offensive stats similar to some of the current OU pokemon, I think that it will be able to plow through anything not immune after use of a good boosting move.
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I'm going to call you on this, many pokemon in the OU metagame have access to the upper-echleon of stat-up moves and are not broken. Haxorus and his monsterous 147 attack plus his dragon stab have access to Swords Dance and Dragon Dance. Scizor's can boost its base 130 attack with Swords Dance and then proceed to sweep with a Technician Boosted Bullet Punch. Volcarona can combine Quiver Dance with the strongest special attack in OU (135) to demolish teams.

What do these pokemon all have in common? Each has a glaring flaw made to prevent it from dominating the metagame (although some still do). Haxorus's speed prevents it from abusing Swords Dance to its fullest, and its Bulk just doesn't cut it when trying to find a turn to Dragon Dance. Scizor is roasted alive by fire attacks. Volcarona just about dies to Stealth Rocks.

We have to realize that CAP 2/Sketchy/Ecetera won't have attacking stats as high as Haxorus or Volcarona, but with its weakness to Dark/Ice (which have priority), fire, ghost, and flying along with a speed stat comparable to Haxorus, (from what I could tell from the counters discussion, we want it to outspeed Dragonite but not Hydregion) it's not going to be overpowered with 110-120ish attacking stats.
 
I don't know whether or not this has been discussed yet, bet it think we should bias more towards PS than SS because, due to it's lack of good stabs, it will have to be creative with its use of Sketch.
 
Ghost resists bug, js.

Other than that, Verbatim, you make a good point that maybe we're underestimating the power creep. I keep trying to type why we have to be carful about breaching Good ratings and I can't think of a good reason, lol.
 
I took bug out, thanks for the catch.


Typhlosion said:
I don't know whether or not this has been discussed yet, bet it think we should bias more towards PS than SS because, due to it's lack of good stabs, it will have to be creative with its use of Sketch.
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If we choose to give them to him/her, Sketchy can utilize Leaf Blade, Petal Dance, Seed Bomb, Wood Hammer, Power Whip, and Horn Leech. Ghost is pretty bare on the physical side (and special, it doesn't have that many moves in general) with Shadow Claw/Punch/Force, though I doubt it will have access to Shadow Force without sketch.
 
verbatim I completely agree with what you have said as of late however you can't leave out Shadow Sneak(best physical ghost move) I think that move in out of itself is enough reason for Sketchy to be a Physical Sweeper with Good Special Defense. I think with his stats we should be aiming for a Gliscor more or less however instead of high Def, high SpD
 
I think the CAP project should be based around Sketch, not around the Poke itself, what I mean is make a good poke but not make it absolute beast, in fact, not even a beast, cuz then it would be more of a challenge to figure out what to do with that moveslot Sketchy gives, so my proposal is:
PS: Good
Face it, Very Good with Shell Smash, Coil or Shift Gear is to broken to think of, i think good can do it
SS: Above Average
Same thing, Very Good (Or even good IMO) with Shell Smash, Quiver Dance, or Tail Glow makes this Sketch, supposed to study versatility, too mono-directional (If that's even a word), plus, Hidden Power alone makes Special Sweeping more appealing as someone already said in the forum.
PT: Above Average
Bulky offense, so i think above average can work with this one.
ST: Good
Good special tankiness (And possibly even Very Good) can probably do it on Sketchy, cuz maybe it could take on a more support role with the Sketch move and work from there, I know Very Good could be better, but the project is about bulky offense, not support, and Im just saying this as a possible option.
 
PS: Above Average
With physical sweepiness, you need to take in mind what this CAP can accomplish. Ghost and grass are two predominantly special attacking types, and as a result, there will be few STABS to take advantage of, so you want to actually hit hard with the limited attacks you get. In the realm of boosting moves, coil and gear shift are decidedly inferior to the special boosting moves of tail glow and quiver dance.

SS: Good
Special sweepiness should not be bad by any means, but it should be kept in the good-average area. First off, the STABS availible are predominantly special, and there will be ample room in movesets to have special attacks, making it easier to run with. Second, the special boosting moves, like tail glow and quiver dance, have a possibility to make this a potent threat.

PT: Good
The priority moves that hit sketchmon are physical. Ice shard and bullet punch. You want to not be at an instant loss against them, but they should serve as a revenge safe if you are weakened to the point. With the typing, this mon is blessed with immunities to fighting and a resistance to ground, both very physical attacks. These are useful, and deem less need for a physical defense. However, a pursuit weakness is not good, and you want to have GOOD defenses still to ensure you aren't pursuit bait to everything that learns the move.

ST: Above Average
The typing of grass/ghost gives numerous weaknesses that fall in the special category in most cases. Fire/ghost/ice are usually special, and dark has a fair share of special attacks. Also, seeing as the weather tier sports mainly special weather attackers, (elemental attacks in weather) it helps to capitalize on bulky offense and keeping it alive in the environment sketchmon is in.
 
Typhlosion said:
I don't know whether or not this has been discussed yet, bet it think we should bias more towards PS than SS because, due to it's lack of good stabs, it will have to be creative with its use of Sketch.
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I agree with the general idea, but not the reason. In my mind, the lack of good physical stab isn't killer, given we dont know the movepool yet. However, I would like to agree that PS should be higher than SS because of the difference in power of boosting moves. Quiver dance and tail glow are more powerful than physical options (yes even gear shift), so if we want this to be viable as either a special or physical attacker, it needs to hit harder on the physical side.
 
FinalEquin0x said:
verbatim I completely agree with what you have said as of late however you can't leave out Shadow Sneak(best physical ghost move) I think that move in out of itself is enough reason for Sketchy to be a Physical Sweeper with Good Special Defense. I think with his stats we should be aiming for a Gliscor more or less however instead of high Def, high SpD
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I considered throwing Shadow Sneak in, but the thing is, it's too weak to warrant competitive use. With stab backing it up, it gains a whopping 60 base attack. If this pokemon didn't have sketch and had 120-130ish attack, Shadow Sneak in combination with Swords Dance could Possibly warrant usage, but you have to realize that the (arguably) best physical stat upping moves (Gear Shift/Shell Smash) raise speed to the point that your going to be going first anyways, and with the bulk that you won't have (without significant investment) the extra damage of Shadow Claw becomes much more appealing if you even want a Ghost STAB move. If you utilize Shell Smash, you won't be able to take anything, you NEED to faint your opponent when you attack.
 
verbatim said:
I considered throwing Shadow Sneak in, but the thing is, it's too weak to warrant competitive use. With stab backing it up, it gains a whopping 60 base attack. If this pokemon didn't have sketch and had 120-130ish attack, Shadow Sneak in combination with Swords Dance could Possibly warrant usage, but you have to realize that the (arguably) best physical stat upping moves (Gear Shift/Shell Smash) raise speed to the point that your going to be going first anyways, and with the bulk that you won't have (without significant investment) the extra damage of Shadow Claw becomes much more appealing if you even want a Ghost STAB move. If you utilize Shell Smash, you won't be able to take anything, you NEED to faint your opponent when you attack.
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Well if this thing gets Technician(a very viable ability) then Shadow Sneak becomes far more usable. Also it would help Sketchy to not be revenge killed so easily
 
Well, the things we want to revenge CAP2 with (Scizor and Sucker Punch users are the most common call-outs so far) all resist Shadow Sneak anyway.
 
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