Point noted, but it's much easier to discuss things in real-time on IRC than it is to open the floor up for discussion in a megathread like this. Since you're asking for it though, I have an idea of what my vote for Hippowdon will look like, but if anyone else want's to chime in before we cast it fully tomorrow night please feel free to post. Remember to keep posts informative and back up what you say with sound reasoning, don't half-ass it.
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np: UU Stage 3 - We Are The Champions
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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Point noted, but it's much easier to discuss things in real-time on IRC than it is to open the floor up for discussion in a megathread like this. Since you're asking for it though, I have an idea of what my vote for Hippowdon will look like, but if anyone else want's to chime in before we cast it fully tomorrow night please feel free to post. Remember to keep posts informative and back up what you say with sound reasoning, don't half-ass it.
Pocket in regards to the single post you made talking about Hippo + Stoutland i have to say this.
I also agrred with you 'till someone said to me on #genvuu that Stoutland can't be the problem since sand + spikes were in UU even before Hippodown came.
And Stoutland was just fine then.
So obviously the blame goes to the offensive and defensive synergy that Hippo and Stoutland have together,not to Stoutland alone.
It may also be Roserade which is the problem but i am not sure.And if we had to accuse of something Roserade it would be for breaking the support characteristics.
And everyone here knows that proving that a poke is broken as a support mon is very fucking difficult so i am not going to try right now.
Just telling my opinion on the matter...
I also agrred with you 'till someone said to me on #genvuu that Stoutland can't be the problem since sand + spikes were in UU even before Hippodown came.
And Stoutland was just fine then.
So obviously the blame goes to the offensive and defensive synergy that Hippo and Stoutland have together,not to Stoutland alone.
It may also be Roserade which is the problem but i am not sure.And if we had to accuse of something Roserade it would be for breaking the support characteristics.
And everyone here knows that proving that a poke is broken as a support mon is very fucking difficult so i am not going to try right now.
Just telling my opinion on the matter...
The difference could also be in how much bulkier Hippowdon is compared to Hippopotas.
Stoutland was never the problem, in fact if anything its probably overhyped as a result of the hippo dropping down. If Hippopotas + Spikes + Stoutland wasn't worth a single shit about than Hippowdon + Spikes + Stoutland, then Hippowdon's the problem. Stoutland is now imo much more manageable with Sableye around able to burn it/change the weather at a moment's notice, so its a lot less threatening than before.
If Roserade is broken as a support mon, then we might as well ban Froslass along with it. The only spinblocker in the entire game able to setup hazards, hi. ._. And arguably, Froslass is a lot more annoying than Roserade can ever be, especially under Hail. After trying out Hail + Froslass, I find TWave + Snow Cloak to be horribly cheap...
also, interesting stuff:
4 Atk Hitmontop Close Combat vs Eviolite 252/252+ Hippopotas: 20.6% - 24.7%
4 Atk Hitmontop Close Combat vs 252/252+ Hippowdon: 19.3% - 22.9%
(overall, yes Hippowdon takes more damage in terms of HP, but Hippowdon has a gargantuan 420 HP over Hippopotas's lol 340)
Hippowdon is if anything slightly bulkier than Hippopotas, which makes all the difference however considering that Hippowdon can hold Lefties.
I think if anything, these guys should be on the block at least:
Hippowdon
Roserade
Froslass
Abomasnow
and jeez, Stoutland isn't broken. it's just a ridiculously overhyped sand user, it doesn't have Excadrill's crazy Attack nor Swords Dance
idk if banning Hippowdon would actually solve the problem because we'd probably go back to whatever it was before Hippowdon dropped (aka hail spammage), but the addition of stuff like Tornadus and Alakazam might make a difference though.
Stoutland was never the problem, in fact if anything its probably overhyped as a result of the hippo dropping down. If Hippopotas + Spikes + Stoutland wasn't worth a single shit about than Hippowdon + Spikes + Stoutland, then Hippowdon's the problem. Stoutland is now imo much more manageable with Sableye around able to burn it/change the weather at a moment's notice, so its a lot less threatening than before.
If Roserade is broken as a support mon, then we might as well ban Froslass along with it. The only spinblocker in the entire game able to setup hazards, hi. ._. And arguably, Froslass is a lot more annoying than Roserade can ever be, especially under Hail. After trying out Hail + Froslass, I find TWave + Snow Cloak to be horribly cheap...
also, interesting stuff:
4 Atk Hitmontop Close Combat vs Eviolite 252/252+ Hippopotas: 20.6% - 24.7%
4 Atk Hitmontop Close Combat vs 252/252+ Hippowdon: 19.3% - 22.9%
(overall, yes Hippowdon takes more damage in terms of HP, but Hippowdon has a gargantuan 420 HP over Hippopotas's lol 340)
Hippowdon is if anything slightly bulkier than Hippopotas, which makes all the difference however considering that Hippowdon can hold Lefties.
I think if anything, these guys should be on the block at least:
Hippowdon
Roserade
Froslass
Abomasnow
idk if banning Hippowdon would actually solve the problem because we'd probably go back to whatever it was before Hippowdon dropped (aka hail spammage), but the addition of stuff like Tornadus and Alakazam might make a difference though.
Sorry for not submitting my paras yet, but I'm pretty torn on this issue. I'll try to get on IRC a lot today and hear some opinions before submitting.
Yeah, I'm not expecting the senate to have their discussions on here instead of IRC, but I think just posting logs of it here would go a long way towards making members of the community who can't get on IRC feel like they're contributing. I mean, if I had enough time to get on IRC and join the discussion I would have applied to be a member myself...
Regardless, I'm just really happy that the Snow Cloak/Sand Veil issue is still very much on the radar. Thanks guys!
Regardless, I'm just really happy that the Snow Cloak/Sand Veil issue is still very much on the radar. Thanks guys!
Thank you kd24 for going out of your way to post logs of the discussion - I wish I could go to irc to view them, but I don't think I have the time today :/
Thanks for responding to my post, alexwolf. I am of the opinion that neither Stoutland + Hippowdon are truly broken. Yes, Hippodown is a defensive behemoth, but its tanking capabilities is no better than Chansey imo. It does have Leftovers and is immune to sandstorm, but I don't find Hippowdon's tanking capabilities "too much." Its weaker special side can be easily exploited, and it can't wall certain physical hits with Spikes support, such as Rhyperior, Escavalier, Swords Dance Heracross, Azumarill, Torterra, Swords Dance Gallade, Bulk Up Machamp, Darmanitan, Double Edge from CB / Curselax, etc.
I think removing Hippowdon is knee-jerk reaction, just like how people in OU wanting to ban Drizzle. "Swift Swimmers weren't broken before Drizzle, so it HAS TO BE Drizzle that is breaking Rain." Just b/c Sand w/ Hippopotas was manageable doesn't mean that the newcomer Hippowdon is the culprit to Sand's new-found success. It simply means that Hippopotas was a shitty mon, so people abused the best weather abuser at the time, Abomasnow. Now a sandstorm summoner with more defensive utility comes in, and now Sand blooms and Hail once again takes a back seat. The reason why Stoutland wasn't so threatening is b/c Hippopotas was weak and sand was largely uncommon. As sand as the common condition, Stoutland rips.
Then again, as Heysup concluded, it may very well be that there is nothing broken about Stoutland + Hippowdon. Yes, they are good, but manageable. Stoutland's offense is hardly extraordinary - even with Adamant, it is hitting as hard as a Jolly mon with 114 base Atk. Hippowdon is like Chansey - it walls shit and possesses supportive roles, but it is a momentum killer and easily exploited.
For instance, you can switch to your Hippowdon after I walled your Stoutland with Cobalion. However, I can do something about that predictable switch by switching into SpecsKingdra, reachzero's Download Destruction Porygon2, Mismagius, offensive Zapdos, Rotom-H, Roserade, Shaymin, Exeggutor, NP Azelf, Alakazam - how exactly will your team respond now? Yes, Hippowdon can tank hits, but just like Chansey, it can be a liability.
Not to mention there are handful of mons that beats Stoutland + Hippowdon. With Spikes support, CB Rhyperior and CB Escavalier gets the job done. Prankster Sableye burns both of them with ease, and so could Spiritomb if it fits Wisp in its movepool. Mismagius can set-up on Stoutland locked into Return. Kingdra can set up Rain Dance against Stoutland locked into Fire Fang / Pursuit.
I think there are plenty of answers to Stoutland + Hippowdon combo. It could be a devastating combination, but I hardly find it too powerful for the UU metagame.
Thanks for responding to my post, alexwolf. I am of the opinion that neither Stoutland + Hippowdon are truly broken. Yes, Hippodown is a defensive behemoth, but its tanking capabilities is no better than Chansey imo. It does have Leftovers and is immune to sandstorm, but I don't find Hippowdon's tanking capabilities "too much." Its weaker special side can be easily exploited, and it can't wall certain physical hits with Spikes support, such as Rhyperior, Escavalier, Swords Dance Heracross, Azumarill, Torterra, Swords Dance Gallade, Bulk Up Machamp, Darmanitan, Double Edge from CB / Curselax, etc.
I think removing Hippowdon is knee-jerk reaction, just like how people in OU wanting to ban Drizzle. "Swift Swimmers weren't broken before Drizzle, so it HAS TO BE Drizzle that is breaking Rain." Just b/c Sand w/ Hippopotas was manageable doesn't mean that the newcomer Hippowdon is the culprit to Sand's new-found success. It simply means that Hippopotas was a shitty mon, so people abused the best weather abuser at the time, Abomasnow. Now a sandstorm summoner with more defensive utility comes in, and now Sand blooms and Hail once again takes a back seat. The reason why Stoutland wasn't so threatening is b/c Hippopotas was weak and sand was largely uncommon. As sand as the common condition, Stoutland rips.
Then again, as Heysup concluded, it may very well be that there is nothing broken about Stoutland + Hippowdon. Yes, they are good, but manageable. Stoutland's offense is hardly extraordinary - even with Adamant, it is hitting as hard as a Jolly mon with 114 base Atk. Hippowdon is like Chansey - it walls shit and possesses supportive roles, but it is a momentum killer and easily exploited.
For instance, you can switch to your Hippowdon after I walled your Stoutland with Cobalion. However, I can do something about that predictable switch by switching into SpecsKingdra, reachzero's Download Destruction Porygon2, Mismagius, offensive Zapdos, Rotom-H, Roserade, Shaymin, Exeggutor, NP Azelf, Alakazam - how exactly will your team respond now? Yes, Hippowdon can tank hits, but just like Chansey, it can be a liability.
Not to mention there are handful of mons that beats Stoutland + Hippowdon. With Spikes support, CB Rhyperior and CB Escavalier gets the job done. Prankster Sableye burns both of them with ease, and so could Spiritomb if it fits Wisp in its movepool. Mismagius can set-up on Stoutland locked into Return. Kingdra can set up Rain Dance against Stoutland locked into Fire Fang / Pursuit.
I think there are plenty of answers to Stoutland + Hippowdon combo. It could be a devastating combination, but I hardly find it too powerful for the UU metagame.
All of this drama over one missed post? Really, Pocket? The fact that you had the balls to call us out for not doing our jobs when we kept everyone fully up to date with the goings-on of Alakazam, and Hippowdon has been a hot topic since the thread started only further convinces me that this isn't about the UU so much as it is that you are personally offended no one took the time to respond to that epic of an editorial you've posted at least three times by now.
Good posts get ignored all the time, what are we supposed to do about that? Plenty of metagame affairs have been discussed since then, with the senate chiming in every now and then to let you know what they think. Please don't tell me that's not good enough for you. It might have been our fault for not letting everyone know when an official meeting for Hippowdon was taking place so other members could watch, but meeting your obligation for bustling activity in the suspect thread really wasn't apart of our job description (which, again, I feel is more for your sake than other UU players, who don't seem to have this complaint).
Here's the great thing about Sand: they have an awesome offensive/defensive combo with four other mons to back it up. If the rest of the team is as proficient at fighting as the duo is, then it shouldn't matter that both Stoutland and Hippowdon have a few counters. They'll keep the game shifted entirely in the Sand team's favor just by existing and doing what no other Pokemon in UU can. No one revenges like Stoutland and no one walls like Hippowdon. If you predict well, you can beat them, but it's a risk that the Sand player simply doesn't have to take. Sand doesn't take any risks when they send Stoutland out to kill; he has good counters, but they're much easier to beat than he is (especially Sableye and Spiritomb). More often than not, the Sand team is going to come out on top simply because they create the best team match-ups where Sand really doesn't have to lose unless the player using it screws up. 'Punishing obvious switches' is not a winning strategy vs. Sand, it is a gamble that you are forced into just to have a chance.
Good posts get ignored all the time, what are we supposed to do about that? Plenty of metagame affairs have been discussed since then, with the senate chiming in every now and then to let you know what they think. Please don't tell me that's not good enough for you. It might have been our fault for not letting everyone know when an official meeting for Hippowdon was taking place so other members could watch, but meeting your obligation for bustling activity in the suspect thread really wasn't apart of our job description (which, again, I feel is more for your sake than other UU players, who don't seem to have this complaint).
A few things we need to address in this scenario: A) I could have nailed your Cobalion with Fire Fang. Either he switches out again or gets KOed. B) Pivoting from Stoutland check into Hippowdon check doesn't work if I have two good Rhyperior checks and can just switch to the other one right away without risking Hippowdon.
Here's the great thing about Sand: they have an awesome offensive/defensive combo with four other mons to back it up. If the rest of the team is as proficient at fighting as the duo is, then it shouldn't matter that both Stoutland and Hippowdon have a few counters. They'll keep the game shifted entirely in the Sand team's favor just by existing and doing what no other Pokemon in UU can. No one revenges like Stoutland and no one walls like Hippowdon. If you predict well, you can beat them, but it's a risk that the Sand player simply doesn't have to take. Sand doesn't take any risks when they send Stoutland out to kill; he has good counters, but they're much easier to beat than he is (especially Sableye and Spiritomb). More often than not, the Sand team is going to come out on top simply because they create the best team match-ups where Sand really doesn't have to lose unless the player using it screws up. 'Punishing obvious switches' is not a winning strategy vs. Sand, it is a gamble that you are forced into just to have a chance.
So very much this. We have seven people on the senate, and the only person whose opinion on sand I'm aware of is Heysup, and I learned his opinion before he was put on the senate (or very early after he was selected, I don't remember).
zzz.
I also agree with Pocket.No matter what SJ Crew says the activity of the senate in the megathread is very little.
All we see is the point that you discussed and maybe the opinion of some of the senate members with a simple yes or no(broken or not).
And this is definitely not the stance that the senate should take according to Jabba's conditions.
Could we please have each senate member explaining their decisions and also asking for ours while we all discuss the hot topics here?
All we see is the point that you discussed and maybe the opinion of some of the senate members with a simple yes or no(broken or not).
And this is definitely not the stance that the senate should take according to Jabba's conditions.
Could we please have each senate member explaining their decisions and also asking for ours while we all discuss the hot topics here?
okay im going to start off by saying i practically do not play uu (i play like a game a week) so this examples/theorymoning/listening to council on #genvuu
i see no reason to ban roserade and frosslass under the support characteristc. frosslass's reasoning of spinblocker and spiker together is a niche it has, and is obviously not broken for it. furthermore, their ability to set up spikes is not impossible to stop.
i see no reason to ban roserade and frosslass under the support characteristc. frosslass's reasoning of spinblocker and spiker together is a niche it has, and is obviously not broken for it. furthermore, their ability to set up spikes is not impossible to stop.
I honestly dgaf if my post was missed, I know not to take things personally. I've simply posted my PM that I sent to you in an attempt to initiate a suspect conversation, which you guys should have started in the first place :/
The fact that Snunch talked about Cryogonal as a Rapid Spinner or the past few pages about Alakazam being weak or not is good and all, but what's on the chopping block is Sand Offense. It's absurd that NO DISCUSSION was taking place in a SUSPECT thread about this suspect until I made a fuss about it yesterday. AT LEAST rehash some of the main points of past arguments. I don't think I'm demanding anything extraordinary here. Am I?
In that scenario, I don't see how forcing Stoutland to be locked in a shitty move such as Fire Fang is a bad thing. Cobalion has just presented an opportunity to switch into a Kingdra, Chandelure, Rotom-H, <insert Pokemon that can take a weak Fire Fang>.
Can't I also use the same argument about checks to you, too? Okay, so you have 2 checks to Rhyperior, but I have 2 checks to Stoutland, so Stoutland isn't even an issue for this team. Not to mention it's much easier to check Stoutland than Rhyperior, who actually has awesome coverage moves, Dual STAB, and 140 base Atk.
This sounds like a huge exaggeration to me. For instance, you state that Sand doesn't take ANY risks sending Stoutland out. Stoutland is sturdy, but an uninvested defense will still discourage this Sand demon from switching into an attack without shortening its sweep - it's taking risks when it comes in on anything except a revenge kill, just like any other mon.
Once it gets in, it has the speed advantage. However, it's a CBer, it's still not in the clear if I have Pokemon that can absorb normal hits (which any team should have). It will take damage from entry hazards, and if it doesn't predict well with its choiced move, it would be forced out.
I admit without hesitation that Stoutland + Hippo is an effective combination of offense and defense. However, none of your explanation really provides any objective reasons as to why they are broken, other than "they're easy to use." Are we going to start removing the best strategies out there, just because it has some advantages over other teams? Not all playstyles are equal - that's a given; it's not a reason to ban. Does this strategy really allow worse players to beat good players? According to you, it doesn't, since people who screw up using Sand teams still lose. Does it really stifle the diversity of the UU metagame? After playing on the ladder and viewing successful teams such as reachzero and jamashawalker's team, both of which lack any weather element, I say no.
The fact that Snunch talked about Cryogonal as a Rapid Spinner or the past few pages about Alakazam being weak or not is good and all, but what's on the chopping block is Sand Offense. It's absurd that NO DISCUSSION was taking place in a SUSPECT thread about this suspect until I made a fuss about it yesterday. AT LEAST rehash some of the main points of past arguments. I don't think I'm demanding anything extraordinary here. Am I?
In that scenario, I don't see how forcing Stoutland to be locked in a shitty move such as Fire Fang is a bad thing. Cobalion has just presented an opportunity to switch into a Kingdra, Chandelure, Rotom-H, <insert Pokemon that can take a weak Fire Fang>.
Can't I also use the same argument about checks to you, too? Okay, so you have 2 checks to Rhyperior, but I have 2 checks to Stoutland, so Stoutland isn't even an issue for this team. Not to mention it's much easier to check Stoutland than Rhyperior, who actually has awesome coverage moves, Dual STAB, and 140 base Atk.
This sounds like a huge exaggeration to me. For instance, you state that Sand doesn't take ANY risks sending Stoutland out. Stoutland is sturdy, but an uninvested defense will still discourage this Sand demon from switching into an attack without shortening its sweep - it's taking risks when it comes in on anything except a revenge kill, just like any other mon.
Once it gets in, it has the speed advantage. However, it's a CBer, it's still not in the clear if I have Pokemon that can absorb normal hits (which any team should have). It will take damage from entry hazards, and if it doesn't predict well with its choiced move, it would be forced out.
I admit without hesitation that Stoutland + Hippo is an effective combination of offense and defense. However, none of your explanation really provides any objective reasons as to why they are broken, other than "they're easy to use." Are we going to start removing the best strategies out there, just because it has some advantages over other teams? Not all playstyles are equal - that's a given; it's not a reason to ban. Does this strategy really allow worse players to beat good players? According to you, it doesn't, since people who screw up using Sand teams still lose. Does it really stifle the diversity of the UU metagame? After playing on the ladder and viewing successful teams such as reachzero and jamashawalker's team, both of which lack any weather element, I say no.
If anything is broken in sand, it's big hippo. Stoutland doesn't suck, but it's easily walled and forced out, meaning it requires significant team support to accomplish a sweep. Hippo assists stouty by setting up residual damage in sand, setting up stealth rock, phazing, and (importantly) switching in on the majority of rock and steel types that give stouty major issues. Little hippo can't do this because it's significantly less threatening offensive and much worse defensively (even with evolite).
The biggest problem with sandstorm is that UU is just not well equipped with Pokemon that can 2hko Hippo on the physical side without having SE moves. I mean, it takes CB Rhyperior to even come close. You might say "yeah so use bulky waters" but then you have roserade/milotic/[insert defensive sand member here] coming in to shit all over you.
I'm not convinced that UU sand is broken, but I don't think this is a great argument to use against it. I had a team in the top 5 of the ladder this round too, without using any weather element. Then again, I also had a team sitting on top of the ladder in 4th gen yanmega meta that didn't have yanmega, registeel, milotic, or chansey - that didn't stop Yanmega from getting a unanimous BL vote (nor should it have).
Good players are going to top the ladder regardless, but that's because good players can outplay bad players with better teams. That isn't to say that all sand players are bad (some can consistently beat me), but it is to say that the majority of sand players (just like the majority of players in general) are bad. I've won plenty of games against sand that I wouldn't have otherwise due to player incompetence.
The biggest problem with sandstorm is that UU is just not well equipped with Pokemon that can 2hko Hippo on the physical side without having SE moves. I mean, it takes CB Rhyperior to even come close. You might say "yeah so use bulky waters" but then you have roserade/milotic/[insert defensive sand member here] coming in to shit all over you.
I'm not convinced that UU sand is broken, but I don't think this is a great argument to use against it. I had a team in the top 5 of the ladder this round too, without using any weather element. Then again, I also had a team sitting on top of the ladder in 4th gen yanmega meta that didn't have yanmega, registeel, milotic, or chansey - that didn't stop Yanmega from getting a unanimous BL vote (nor should it have).
Good players are going to top the ladder regardless, but that's because good players can outplay bad players with better teams. That isn't to say that all sand players are bad (some can consistently beat me), but it is to say that the majority of sand players (just like the majority of players in general) are bad. I've won plenty of games against sand that I wouldn't have otherwise due to player incompetence.
@Pocket: Heysup and I actually post here pretty much all the time. I have not been quite as boisterous about my opinion on Sand, but here it is. Kd24 posted his opinion here. Lolcat's stance on Hippowdon, read all about it.
You're saying that you actually missed every one of them and are using this thread's current activity as an excuse to lunge at the throat in the worst way possible - a whiny, self-entitled attitude that demands we constantly reiterate our opinions just to appease you. Why didn't you bother reading over the thread yourself OR come onto IRC to ask us about this before you came into this thread causing a ruckus? The only thing you had to do was ask ToF, Snunch, and Moo personally what their opinions are on Sand. Hell, you could have even asked a senate member you know is active (hint hint, me) about the rest of the council before you called all seven of us out and told us we were being fucking lazy.
This goes for the rest of you as well. If you want to know what we think about Sand and probably missed one of our posts discussing it, just ask. Don't wait for like three weeks of peace and then explode. "So, UU senate, what do you guys think about Sand/Hippowdon/Stoutland/Beyonce's breasts?" We are not keeping it a secret from anyone. Neither are the rest of the UU players. Do your research or wait patiently for us to reach a verdict.
If Garchomp made its way back to OU, I'm carrying Scarf Cloyster again. If Staraptor made its way back to UU, it's Impish Rhyperior for me, no two ways about it. These are not valid reasons to sit and do nothing when something is amiss and we're aware of the culprit.
You're saying that you actually missed every one of them and are using this thread's current activity as an excuse to lunge at the throat in the worst way possible - a whiny, self-entitled attitude that demands we constantly reiterate our opinions just to appease you. Why didn't you bother reading over the thread yourself OR come onto IRC to ask us about this before you came into this thread causing a ruckus? The only thing you had to do was ask ToF, Snunch, and Moo personally what their opinions are on Sand. Hell, you could have even asked a senate member you know is active (hint hint, me) about the rest of the council before you called all seven of us out and told us we were being fucking lazy.
This goes for the rest of you as well. If you want to know what we think about Sand and probably missed one of our posts discussing it, just ask. Don't wait for like three weeks of peace and then explode. "So, UU senate, what do you guys think about Sand/Hippowdon/Stoutland/Beyonce's breasts?" We are not keeping it a secret from anyone. Neither are the rest of the UU players. Do your research or wait patiently for us to reach a verdict.
Because it took place weeks ago amongst all of UU and you came right in the middle of it and willfully ignored it, just like everyone else did your post. I am simply not buying that we didn't talk about Hippowdon before we had the senate meeting.
I pretty much know you're going to switch because that's one of the only ways you can deal with Stoutland and you just lost half of his HP. Threat averted, Stoutland's job is done. No reason to stay in unless I've analyzed your playstyle well and I'm pretty sure you'll unwisely stay in and get him killed. Prediction arguments are still 50/50 anyway. Let's not bring up team members because Sand team has those too. But they also have the advantage of a ridiculous free revenge killer, who can either trap your mon if it tries to get out, or spam Frustration once Ghost is dead until all of your counters are too. Even if you predict, your check is still walled, and the game is not over. You didn't solve the Stoutland problem or win the game, you just made one nice play that would potentially win you some momentum (assuming I don't have a check for Rotom-H or Kingdra)...only to be stolen again when Stoutland comes back. And again when your Cobalion meets Hippowdon.
Good idea. I'm going to exploit your poor decision to carry two Rocks/Steel types on your team by killing everything with Cobalion. It's bad enough one of your checks is thoroughly walled by Hippowdon (Rhyperior), but the other check is probably still vulnerable to one of its moves being a 'check' and all. I've Fire Fanged these Cobalion before. If you're in a corner, do you just let your Pokemon die, or hit the check button and hope something good happens? For your sake, I hope it's the latter.
No, switching Stoutland into a weak attack or painfully obvious recovery otherwise non-damaging attack does not put him at risk. This is not even prediction, this is "Chansey is at half HP vs your Zapdos, what do you think it's going to do?" Stoutland will always have a chance to get in without needing to revenge. Whether or not other Sand players will take that opportunity is a different story altogether.
You're asking all of the wrong questions. Are the best teams to use this round still Sand despite the number of anti-Sand measures that have cropped up in the past month and failed to make a significant impact on the tier? Yes. Will even the best of well-played non-Sand teams still lose to Sand? Yes. Anyone in any metagame can win against any strategy no matter what if they honed their skills and took the appropriate countermeasures to dominant Pokemon and strategies. But not using the best strategy in the tier just creates more work for yourself and a hurdle Sand teams do not, and have not, needed to jump.
If Garchomp made its way back to OU, I'm carrying Scarf Cloyster again. If Staraptor made its way back to UU, it's Impish Rhyperior for me, no two ways about it. These are not valid reasons to sit and do nothing when something is amiss and we're aware of the culprit.
Bro, the council was not even established when they posted their thoughts in the link you referenced. AS A COUNCIL MEMBER, rather than individual UU players, anyone of you should have presented your constructive thoughts and initiate discussion. How else would you weigh in the community's opinion on a suspect as our senator? Are you going to disregard what we think in your executive decision?
The "rest of us" do not have to go out of our way to ask individual candidate member his stance on the issue - that's your job. Bring the suspect discussion to us, not vice versa, lol...
Yea, prediction argument isn't really a good way to approach suspect issues - we can always portray a scenario to prove our point. We both fell into that trap.
There are more checks / counter to Stoutland than Rock / Steel Types. Slowbro, Gligar, Porygon2, Dusknoir, Deoxys-D, and Hippowdon checks Stoutland fine, not to mention Spiritomb / Sableye. There are handful of other mons that can tank a hit from Stoutland and retaliate back. I think those are diverse answers to deal with Stoutland, some can even deal with Hippowdon, too. You can mention about "other team mates," but that goes both ways.
This is another prediction argument. I can say the same thing for Hippowdon - Hippowdon slacking off / EQ is a free switch-in for Special Sweepers / EQ resists.
This comment coincides with FlareBlitz's explanation about the Yanmega suspect in DPP UU. There's a difference between Garchomp in OU / Yanmega in Gen IV UU and Stoutland+Hippo in Gen V UU. Garchomp and Yanmega were overbearing presence in their respective metagames. Garchomp forced you to carry a subpar Pokemon in Scarf Cloyster, when it could be a Shell Smash sweeper / physical tank. Yanmega forced everyone to carry dedicated special walls, such as Registeel. There are very few mons that could survive a Tinted Lens-augmented Specs Bug Boost from Yanmega.
Could you honestly say that Hippowdon + Stoutland has such an overbearing presence in the current UU that it forces you to use a select few subpar Pokemon / movesets that can fend off the combination? Stoutland is far from an offensive juggernaut, with plenty of diverse hard counters and checks, as I elaborated above. It's revenge-killing prowess is somewhat analagous to LO Deoxys-S, which can't outright break through walls and have hard counteres; nobody is complaining about LO Deoxys-S in OU.
Being fast and a "perfect revenge killer" doesn't make it an auto-BL mon, as long as there are numerous checks and even counters to the threat.
FlareBlitz said:
Thank you for your response, FlareBlitz. I will be reiterating myself, but there are more than Rock and Steel Types that can check Stoutland.
Hippopotas can supply the Sand, SR, and Phazing, so the only suspect-worthy quality of Hippowdon is its bulk. Hippowdon is indeed bulky, but I fail to see how it is any better than Slowbro, Tangrowth, Quagsire, or Eviolite Chansey in terms of defensiveness. It's particularly vulnerable to special offense (unless Hippowdon heavily invests in Special Defense, in which case it wont be tanking powerful physical hits well), and even physical sweepers can break through Hippowdon. The same cannot be said as frequently for Special Sweepers' attempt in breaking Chansey.
I don't see how Hippowdon breaks sand at all. If anything, I'd say Stoutland is the bigger suspect for providing the offensive presence to force the opponent in the defensive, as well as the revenge killing utilities that SJCrew has mentioned.
I still think we should be talking about Sandstorm in general as opposed to just Hippowdon. Firstly, Stoutland is staying with Hippopotas around, and it appears to be the biggest threat. Second, it would allow us to be more accurately banning the thing at fault - Hippowdon is actually not that great as a Pokemon, slightly bulkier than Hippopotas @ Eviolite - the thing at fault is the whole concept of Sandstorm being in effect, including stoutland, including Leftovers canceling, including the ease in which they wear down other Pokemon. By just narrowing it to Hippowdon, we are simply leaving Sandstorm out of it because Hippopotas exists. We can only talk about the difference between Hippopotas (accepted as UU) and Hippowdon (suspect). I feel that many people are going to lump Hippowdon as well as sand in together as the same thing, but it isn't - and that creates a bias for banning it. We should only be focusing on the difference between Hippowdon and Hippopotas if Hippowdon is the suspect.
I would still oppose banning Sandstorm. Stoutland is just so one-dimensional and easy to exploit. Hippowdon is set up bait and can't wall anything with a CB.
I would still oppose banning Sandstorm. Stoutland is just so one-dimensional and easy to exploit. Hippowdon is set up bait and can't wall anything with a CB.
Well, it seems the last time I posted an opinion about Hippowdon was about a month ago, so I should probably update that.
I used to be pretty pro-ban for the Hippo, but at this point I've read pretty decent arguments both for and against banning it. I was going to submit my paragraphs two days ago, but I haven't done so yet simply because I'm on the fence right now. So, yes: my stance on Hippowdon has definitely changed over the last few weeks.
I don't think I would ever support a ban on Stoutland, as a Stoutland ban would just be an attempt to "nerf" sand by taking away its most powerful sweeper, and Stoutland is pretty easy to play around, not to mention weak to all three hazards. As Heysup said, Stoutland is one-dimensional and easy to exploit. Its only powerful move is Return/Frustration, and eventually it will have to lock itself into a move making it very easy to defeat. It's also walled by the Hippo most of the time.
This brings us back to the major issue, Hippowdon. Now I have to agree that this is about Hippowdon vs. Hippopotas, as Sand Stream is available to both of them and Hippopotas was not broken. So the question is:
"Does the boost from Hippopotas to Hippowdon make Sand far too powerful to exist in a balanced metagame?"
Personally, I'm leaning a little towards ban, but I haven't made up my mind. Hippowdon is just so bulky he's almost impossible to bring down with Physical attackers, and most Sand teams have something to take the far weaker Special attackers in the tier. However, I then read http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3458023, reachzero's RMT that deals with Sand very well, and it made me realize,
Most Sand teams can deal with powerful Banded/Physical Pokemon, but cannot take the strongest Special attacks in the tier. Absolutely no Sand staple can switch into that offensive Porygon2 set if it gets a Download boost, and it's almost impossible to stop that Porygon2 from getting a second kill because of its defensive stats: Porygon2 has 374/324/339 defenses and 339 Special Attack without a Download boost!. That SpA immediately jumps to the 500s with a boost, making Porygon2 nigh impossible to switch into. Hippowdon can't touch it, Roserade can only Sleep it, Alakazam can't KO it, and Ghosts don't do enough damage.
I'm hesitant to ban anything that can be taken care of so well by that Porygon2 set, especially when the opponent still has 5 more Pokemon to take care of the rest of the metagame.
However, I still know that the balance core of Hippowdon+Stoutland is insanely difficult to take down, as 90% of the things that Stoutland can't beat are walled by Hippowdon, and 90% of the things that Hippowdon can't wall can be taken down by Stoutland or Roserade. That's the strongest pro-ban argument right now, and it's what made me originally want to ban the Hippo. Hippopotas can't do what Hippowdon can, which provides a strong reason to give the daddy hippo a ticket to BL.
I'll probably play some more ladder matches, read the thread, and read the IRC logs before making a decision, but I'm going to get this decision in soon.
I used to be pretty pro-ban for the Hippo, but at this point I've read pretty decent arguments both for and against banning it. I was going to submit my paragraphs two days ago, but I haven't done so yet simply because I'm on the fence right now. So, yes: my stance on Hippowdon has definitely changed over the last few weeks.
I don't think I would ever support a ban on Stoutland, as a Stoutland ban would just be an attempt to "nerf" sand by taking away its most powerful sweeper, and Stoutland is pretty easy to play around, not to mention weak to all three hazards. As Heysup said, Stoutland is one-dimensional and easy to exploit. Its only powerful move is Return/Frustration, and eventually it will have to lock itself into a move making it very easy to defeat. It's also walled by the Hippo most of the time.
This brings us back to the major issue, Hippowdon. Now I have to agree that this is about Hippowdon vs. Hippopotas, as Sand Stream is available to both of them and Hippopotas was not broken. So the question is:
"Does the boost from Hippopotas to Hippowdon make Sand far too powerful to exist in a balanced metagame?"
Personally, I'm leaning a little towards ban, but I haven't made up my mind. Hippowdon is just so bulky he's almost impossible to bring down with Physical attackers, and most Sand teams have something to take the far weaker Special attackers in the tier. However, I then read http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3458023, reachzero's RMT that deals with Sand very well, and it made me realize,
Most Sand teams can deal with powerful Banded/Physical Pokemon, but cannot take the strongest Special attacks in the tier. Absolutely no Sand staple can switch into that offensive Porygon2 set if it gets a Download boost, and it's almost impossible to stop that Porygon2 from getting a second kill because of its defensive stats: Porygon2 has 374/324/339 defenses and 339 Special Attack without a Download boost!. That SpA immediately jumps to the 500s with a boost, making Porygon2 nigh impossible to switch into. Hippowdon can't touch it, Roserade can only Sleep it, Alakazam can't KO it, and Ghosts don't do enough damage.
I'm hesitant to ban anything that can be taken care of so well by that Porygon2 set, especially when the opponent still has 5 more Pokemon to take care of the rest of the metagame.
However, I still know that the balance core of Hippowdon+Stoutland is insanely difficult to take down, as 90% of the things that Stoutland can't beat are walled by Hippowdon, and 90% of the things that Hippowdon can't wall can be taken down by Stoutland or Roserade. That's the strongest pro-ban argument right now, and it's what made me originally want to ban the Hippo. Hippopotas can't do what Hippowdon can, which provides a strong reason to give the daddy hippo a ticket to BL.
I'll probably play some more ladder matches, read the thread, and read the IRC logs before making a decision, but I'm going to get this decision in soon.
Pocket, one major thing you fail to understand in your critical assessment of our performance is that your personal expectations of a senate member is not the same as our duty. There is no ordinance requiring us to command the direction of a thread that has frankly done a damn fine job in self-moderation thusfar, and is capable of voicing its own opinions on a suspect without our help. What you did some few pages ago in your PM response is something everyone in this thread is capable of doing and has done before your unwarranted outburst of discontent. That is what this thread is for; not bitching about the senate, mind you, but for discussing the metagame, its progression, and the suspects therein. You didn't need us to hold your hand a month ago, and you certainly don't need us to do now.
If you'd like to continue this line of discussion, I highly recommend doing it on the IRC channel (SynIRC; host: irc.synirc.net, port:6669, channel: #genvuu) where all senators, including Jabba, can address your criticisms in real time. As for the Sand debate, I'll get back to you when I have a little more time.
If you'd like to continue this line of discussion, I highly recommend doing it on the IRC channel (SynIRC; host: irc.synirc.net, port:6669, channel: #genvuu) where all senators, including Jabba, can address your criticisms in real time. As for the Sand debate, I'll get back to you when I have a little more time.
So now that you asked me on my opinion, I'll tell you.
I think Hippowdon should be BL simply because of the synergy it has with Stoutland. Hippopatas (who from this point on will be referred to as little Hippo) does not have the same defensive capabilities that Hipppowdon has, which makes it difficult to take down. Hippowdon reminds me a lot of Abomasnow in DPP UU. Fully evolved parent forms of auto-weather Pokemon are often too much for the tier to handle, which is why Abomasnow and now Hippowdon will likely get the boot. Sand on its own is an extremely powerful field condition, and adding Hippowdon to the mix as the inducer only strengthens the playstyle to IMO obscene power levels. My view on Hail is the same way FYI, so before you ask I plan to vote Abomasnow BL as well to stay consistent once it comes up.
If you want to use Sand (which again I reiterate is strong in BW UU), I say you should be forced to use little Hippo to compensate a bit. Hippowdon is too much of a defensive behemoth to justify allowing it. The same goes for Abomasnow. Hail is so ridiculously overpowered with it as the weather inducer - to compensate, Snover should be the only allowable Pokemon in BW UU.
I think Hippowdon should be BL simply because of the synergy it has with Stoutland. Hippopatas (who from this point on will be referred to as little Hippo) does not have the same defensive capabilities that Hipppowdon has, which makes it difficult to take down. Hippowdon reminds me a lot of Abomasnow in DPP UU. Fully evolved parent forms of auto-weather Pokemon are often too much for the tier to handle, which is why Abomasnow and now Hippowdon will likely get the boot. Sand on its own is an extremely powerful field condition, and adding Hippowdon to the mix as the inducer only strengthens the playstyle to IMO obscene power levels. My view on Hail is the same way FYI, so before you ask I plan to vote Abomasnow BL as well to stay consistent once it comes up.
If you want to use Sand (which again I reiterate is strong in BW UU), I say you should be forced to use little Hippo to compensate a bit. Hippowdon is too much of a defensive behemoth to justify allowing it. The same goes for Abomasnow. Hail is so ridiculously overpowered with it as the weather inducer - to compensate, Snover should be the only allowable Pokemon in BW UU.
im just going to post my paras fuck it - you can argue points but they are already sent so please dont tell me to edit something - these are for you to look at get a sense of where im coming from concerning hippowdon (jabba and ln already have these):
---
WHY HIPPOWDON IS BL
there are multiple things we need to consider when making this decision - the most important of which is "why hippowdon specifically" - as others will claim and state when we arent discussing hippopotas.
what makes hippowdon broken is not solely him the pokemon or solely sandstorm - it is hippowdon summoning the sandstorm. i think this is point that needs to be addressed - it is hippowdons synergy and what he means as a teammate for sandstorm teams that make him broken.
so before i start talking about hippowdon and hippopotas, let me just explain why hippo summoning sand is broken in the first place - hippowdon creates a completely unhealthy metagame where he combos with pokemon that receive ridiculous boosts with him as a partner - boosts that directly overpower multiple pokemon.
i can start with the most obvious one - stoutland. there couldnt have been a better match made in UU than these two and its obvious why - stoutland (who can deal with ghosts so we can ignore that) spams choice banded frustrations only resisted and hence forth walled by the scarce amount of rock-types and steel-types. hippowdon in turn wall most of these pokemon, or force them into terrible positions (this is because one of the only "safe" methods to defeating this combo relies on giving these walls choice band or high impact items like life orb, which in turn only makes it harder for them to wall stoutland or for them to defend against any other part of the team, generally geared perfectly towards defeating these threats). many of the same arguments taken from excadrill's arguments apply perfectly to stoutland - he destroys speed tiers and completely forces the meta around himself. imagine in ou, if exca was weaker and forced to use a cb to do damage, but to make up for it, he had a sand partner which completely walled all of his counters - this is why hippowdon is like for stoutland. so why you may wish to argue "stoutland is broken" and there isn't anything wrong with doing that - the offender of non competitiveness is hippowdon who as i said before, creates all sorts of combos that are almost impossible to break through - made even tougher by stoutland (and alakazam).
i suppose ill get to alakazam next - this is yet another sweeper who absolutely benefits from hippowdon. hippo has the ability to wall what you were using to stop alakazam such as escavalier and non wisp spiritomb - a zam with a substitute provides another form of attack that hippowdon entirely supports and like i have mentioned before - zam requires almost no prediction with a sub and the right teammates. the time for zam to be banned has passed but it doesnt mean we cant eliminate the bigger offender, the pokemon who once again like stoutland, provides yet another pokemon perfect support.
so "hippo cant wall cb attacks 'that well' and still has trouble with super effective attacks" - my retort is so what? hippowdon doesnt care about that, hes walling the things he is supposed to wall while hitting back hard enough, supporting all the general teammates around him. i can go one step further and mention roserade and a bulky water-type - one again, beautiful type synergy with hippowdon, being able to take the water, ice, grass attacks directed at him, being able to counter more of those threats that would wall your attackers, and setting up spikes / phazing around in the process. this is a combination that beautifully plays itself out for you. the last slot barely matters but you may see a ghost or a scarf flygon or w/e - it doesn't matter much here, this is usually just meant to plug up the holes left. the problem, like i said, is the issue of hippo + the perfect attacking partners + perfect defensive partners - the only way to truly dominate this meta besides using sand yourself is to completely go anti-meta with anti-sand - thats how over centralizing sand is.
now why hippowdon and not hippopotas? well that should be clear from my paragraphs but i will reiterate it clearly here: hippopotas does not provide the walling or attacking support that hippowdon does. it is not eliminating the counters of zam or stoutland (escavalier and bisharp, things hippowdon could wall can now threaten not only hipppopotas but the whole team structure by default) because it doesnt have the same defensive prowess of hippowdon - the lack of recovery, the decrease of bulk, the MUCH weaker attacking power - they turn hippopotas into a LIABILITY, not a threat like hippowdon. its my belief that stoutland and sand in general becomes very manageable with the liability that is hippopotas providing the sand - and this is why im in favor of banning hippowdon, its his summoning of sand with his unique qualities that creates broken threats and a broken metagame.
---
WHY HIPPOWDON IS BL
there are multiple things we need to consider when making this decision - the most important of which is "why hippowdon specifically" - as others will claim and state when we arent discussing hippopotas.
what makes hippowdon broken is not solely him the pokemon or solely sandstorm - it is hippowdon summoning the sandstorm. i think this is point that needs to be addressed - it is hippowdons synergy and what he means as a teammate for sandstorm teams that make him broken.
so before i start talking about hippowdon and hippopotas, let me just explain why hippo summoning sand is broken in the first place - hippowdon creates a completely unhealthy metagame where he combos with pokemon that receive ridiculous boosts with him as a partner - boosts that directly overpower multiple pokemon.
i can start with the most obvious one - stoutland. there couldnt have been a better match made in UU than these two and its obvious why - stoutland (who can deal with ghosts so we can ignore that) spams choice banded frustrations only resisted and hence forth walled by the scarce amount of rock-types and steel-types. hippowdon in turn wall most of these pokemon, or force them into terrible positions (this is because one of the only "safe" methods to defeating this combo relies on giving these walls choice band or high impact items like life orb, which in turn only makes it harder for them to wall stoutland or for them to defend against any other part of the team, generally geared perfectly towards defeating these threats). many of the same arguments taken from excadrill's arguments apply perfectly to stoutland - he destroys speed tiers and completely forces the meta around himself. imagine in ou, if exca was weaker and forced to use a cb to do damage, but to make up for it, he had a sand partner which completely walled all of his counters - this is why hippowdon is like for stoutland. so why you may wish to argue "stoutland is broken" and there isn't anything wrong with doing that - the offender of non competitiveness is hippowdon who as i said before, creates all sorts of combos that are almost impossible to break through - made even tougher by stoutland (and alakazam).
i suppose ill get to alakazam next - this is yet another sweeper who absolutely benefits from hippowdon. hippo has the ability to wall what you were using to stop alakazam such as escavalier and non wisp spiritomb - a zam with a substitute provides another form of attack that hippowdon entirely supports and like i have mentioned before - zam requires almost no prediction with a sub and the right teammates. the time for zam to be banned has passed but it doesnt mean we cant eliminate the bigger offender, the pokemon who once again like stoutland, provides yet another pokemon perfect support.
so "hippo cant wall cb attacks 'that well' and still has trouble with super effective attacks" - my retort is so what? hippowdon doesnt care about that, hes walling the things he is supposed to wall while hitting back hard enough, supporting all the general teammates around him. i can go one step further and mention roserade and a bulky water-type - one again, beautiful type synergy with hippowdon, being able to take the water, ice, grass attacks directed at him, being able to counter more of those threats that would wall your attackers, and setting up spikes / phazing around in the process. this is a combination that beautifully plays itself out for you. the last slot barely matters but you may see a ghost or a scarf flygon or w/e - it doesn't matter much here, this is usually just meant to plug up the holes left. the problem, like i said, is the issue of hippo + the perfect attacking partners + perfect defensive partners - the only way to truly dominate this meta besides using sand yourself is to completely go anti-meta with anti-sand - thats how over centralizing sand is.
now why hippowdon and not hippopotas? well that should be clear from my paragraphs but i will reiterate it clearly here: hippopotas does not provide the walling or attacking support that hippowdon does. it is not eliminating the counters of zam or stoutland (escavalier and bisharp, things hippowdon could wall can now threaten not only hipppopotas but the whole team structure by default) because it doesnt have the same defensive prowess of hippowdon - the lack of recovery, the decrease of bulk, the MUCH weaker attacking power - they turn hippopotas into a LIABILITY, not a threat like hippowdon. its my belief that stoutland and sand in general becomes very manageable with the liability that is hippopotas providing the sand - and this is why im in favor of banning hippowdon, its his summoning of sand with his unique qualities that creates broken threats and a broken metagame.
So I see a common theme in the majority of the paragraphs.
Hippowdon is broken and Hippopotas isn't because:
a) Hippopotas is less bulky.
b) Hippopotas is weak.
a) Let's look at the damage difference between the two on a couple big Choice Banders: (Adamant) Rhyperior Earthquake, (Jolly) Aggron Aqua Tail, (Jolly) Heracross Megahorn / Close Combat.
NOTE: Leftovers are calculated into 3HKOes and 2HKOEs
Vs Hippowdon:
Rhyperior - 43.57 - 51.42%
Aggron - 40.47 - 47.61%
Heracross - 43.81% - 51.67%
All 3 are 3HKOes with no hazards. All 3 2HKO with 1 layer of Spikes and Stealth Rock.
Vs Hippopotas
Rhyperior - 47.05 - 55.58%
Aggron - 43.52 - 51.76%
Heracross - 47.06% - 55.88%
All 3 are 2HKOes with Stealth Rock. All 3 are still 2HKOes with 1 layer of Spikes and Stealth Rock.
This shows that what's being considered here is one layer of Spikes being difference between broken and unbroken defensively.
b) Attacking: obviously there is a huge difference here. But does it really matter? Here are a couple common switch-ins for Hippopotas -> can they still switch into Hippowdon?
Donphan - 19.79 - 23.43%
Blastoise - 23.48 - 28.17%
Froslass - 41.39 - 48.97%
Roserade (Spikes) - 73.28 - 86.25%
You're better off using Toxic against Donphan and Blastoise - not super common on Hippowdon because you pick between Roar and Toxic. Froslass still switches in, gets a layer of Spikes, uses Pain Split, and beats you down with Ice Beam. Your attack helps against Roserade, but you still need to rely on prediction. My point is that while Hippowdon has higher numbers, do they matter that much? Hippo's role on sandstorm teams is primarily checking threats, setting up Stealth Rock, and spreading Toxic / Roar.
So the difference between the two is essentially a layer of Spikes and preventing Roserade from freely switching in. Otherwise, with a layer of Spikes and against Pokemon besides Roserade (maybe a few more I didn't see), we are dealing with is effectively the same Pokemon.
Are we OK with this? I'm clearly not, but maybe you guys can see it from my point of view.
EDIT:
Hippow:
Bisharp - 86.76 - 103.67% - OHKO with hazards
+2 Iron Head - 55.23 - 65.23% (2HKO)
Cobalion - 59.25 - 70.37% - 2HKO
+2 Close Combat - 60.71 - 71.42% (2HKO)
Hippo (if it were to use Earthquake):
Bisharp - 61.76 - 72.79% - 2HKO
+2 Iron Head - 60 - 70.88% (2HKO)
Cobalion - 41.35 - 48.76% - 2HKO with hazards
+2 Close Combat - 65.29 - 77.05% (2HKO)
Still not a huge difference, especially defensively where there is actually no difference. I'm still more concerned about things like Rhyperior. Aggron is there because he's a great Stoutland counter, so it's pretty applicable as well. I didn't avoid these calculations just because I thought they worked against me, I just chose 3 that jumped out with similar damage ranges. I mean, they are just further supporting my point.
The 2HKOes and 3HKOes are hugely different, but my point was after a layer of Spikes, they are both 2HKOed by those 3 Pokemon.
I'm not arguing that Hippopotas is anywhere as good as an overall Pokemon. I'm trying to argue that contextual differences between the two are not enough to make one broken and one not broken. A layer of Spikes goes on the field, and they are both similarly 2HKOed by the same things. I think there is more of a valid argument on the Attack side, but it still really doesn't have that many advantages.
Hippowdon is broken and Hippopotas isn't because:
a) Hippopotas is less bulky.
b) Hippopotas is weak.
a) Let's look at the damage difference between the two on a couple big Choice Banders: (Adamant) Rhyperior Earthquake, (Jolly) Aggron Aqua Tail, (Jolly) Heracross Megahorn / Close Combat.
NOTE: Leftovers are calculated into 3HKOes and 2HKOEs
Vs Hippowdon:
Rhyperior - 43.57 - 51.42%
Aggron - 40.47 - 47.61%
Heracross - 43.81% - 51.67%
All 3 are 3HKOes with no hazards. All 3 2HKO with 1 layer of Spikes and Stealth Rock.
Vs Hippopotas
Rhyperior - 47.05 - 55.58%
Aggron - 43.52 - 51.76%
Heracross - 47.06% - 55.88%
All 3 are 2HKOes with Stealth Rock. All 3 are still 2HKOes with 1 layer of Spikes and Stealth Rock.
This shows that what's being considered here is one layer of Spikes being difference between broken and unbroken defensively.
b) Attacking: obviously there is a huge difference here. But does it really matter? Here are a couple common switch-ins for Hippopotas -> can they still switch into Hippowdon?
Donphan - 19.79 - 23.43%
Blastoise - 23.48 - 28.17%
Froslass - 41.39 - 48.97%
Roserade (Spikes) - 73.28 - 86.25%
You're better off using Toxic against Donphan and Blastoise - not super common on Hippowdon because you pick between Roar and Toxic. Froslass still switches in, gets a layer of Spikes, uses Pain Split, and beats you down with Ice Beam. Your attack helps against Roserade, but you still need to rely on prediction. My point is that while Hippowdon has higher numbers, do they matter that much? Hippo's role on sandstorm teams is primarily checking threats, setting up Stealth Rock, and spreading Toxic / Roar.
So the difference between the two is essentially a layer of Spikes and preventing Roserade from freely switching in. Otherwise, with a layer of Spikes and against Pokemon besides Roserade (maybe a few more I didn't see), we are dealing with is effectively the same Pokemon.
Are we OK with this? I'm clearly not, but maybe you guys can see it from my point of view.
EDIT:
Hippow:
Bisharp - 86.76 - 103.67% - OHKO with hazards
+2 Iron Head - 55.23 - 65.23% (2HKO)
Cobalion - 59.25 - 70.37% - 2HKO
+2 Close Combat - 60.71 - 71.42% (2HKO)
Hippo (if it were to use Earthquake):
Bisharp - 61.76 - 72.79% - 2HKO
+2 Iron Head - 60 - 70.88% (2HKO)
Cobalion - 41.35 - 48.76% - 2HKO with hazards
+2 Close Combat - 65.29 - 77.05% (2HKO)
Still not a huge difference, especially defensively where there is actually no difference. I'm still more concerned about things like Rhyperior. Aggron is there because he's a great Stoutland counter, so it's pretty applicable as well. I didn't avoid these calculations just because I thought they worked against me, I just chose 3 that jumped out with similar damage ranges. I mean, they are just further supporting my point.
The 2HKOes and 3HKOes are hugely different, but my point was after a layer of Spikes, they are both 2HKOed by those 3 Pokemon.
I'm not arguing that Hippopotas is anywhere as good as an overall Pokemon. I'm trying to argue that contextual differences between the two are not enough to make one broken and one not broken. A layer of Spikes goes on the field, and they are both similarly 2HKOed by the same things. I think there is more of a valid argument on the Attack side, but it still really doesn't have that many advantages.
I'd say you're definitely calcing the wrong things there. i.e. you want to look at the comparison between damage taken and damage dealt to threats like Bisharp and Cobalion. And on top of that, I'd say the difference between a 3hko and a 2hko is a huge deal. Not to mention putting those calcs together without mentioning lefties recovery kind of gives the impression that Hippopotas seriously almost takes hits as well as Hippowdon when the lefties recovery is going to be huge over the course of the match.
I didn't think I'd see anyone try to argue that mini-hippo falls just a tad short of being as good of a Pokemon as Hippowdon.
I didn't think I'd see anyone try to argue that mini-hippo falls just a tad short of being as good of a Pokemon as Hippowdon.
- Status