Deoxys-S Tiering Discussion

[Kefka Palazzo™]

Deoxys on the other hand is played as a lead for 2/3 sets (and those 2 sets are about 10x more common than the LO cleaner), to only let other pokes do the work. And a counter to Deoxys? Rapid Spin and Brick Break/stalling. Those aren't situational either.

We have already said multiple times where the power stops because the main sets have no power to begin with, its just team support.

Brick Break is just terrible and definitely doesn't stop Deoxys, because it's so weak. Maybe Salamence likes it to hit T-tar and Balloon Heatran, but pretty much nothing else uses it. Even Scizor prefers Superpower.

Rapid Spin doesn't help at all if he sets up Screens instead or just pwns your spinner. Either way, with the offensive pressure of HO(or the near un-spinnable power of the JelliCent core) you'll either never spin those hazards away or you'll just have a really tough prediction war to do so.

You could stall Deoxys out...except it commonly carries Taunt/Magic Coat and you're still not stopping it from setting up Screens unless you use that gimmicky Snatch move.

 

[andysensei]

Thank you, Agammemnon. Whenever people say that it has three sets is really just ignorance. They're setting themselves up to be destroyed by SR + 3 attacks or Taunt + Recover. The second you think you know what it's going to do is when you lose. I think that over time people will come to realize that it has no hard counters, especially when it can do whatever the hell it wants with its godly speed and enormous movepool.

I feel that the anti-Uber side has made no legitimate arguments of its own. All there time is spent trying to refute our arguments with questionable logic and irrelevant posts. And then all these random "counters" to it that have absolutely no viabilitity otherwise. Deoxys is beginning to have more of an influence on the metagame than you might think. I've seen more CB Scizor than ever before, as well as spinners on around one out of every four or five teams.

Are you saying people having CB Scizor and/or spinners because of deoxys is a bad thing? I mean spinners have a ton of utility and CB scizor is an excellent revenger and overall strong attacking pokemon.

It's not like Blaziken bringing out pokemon like Azumarill, who have little use other than revenging Blazken, and a small handful of water weak pokemon who would not die to Scizor's bullet punch.

Also, what would you consider a legit argument from the anti-uber side? What makes a pokemon uber, is generally classified as offering too much offense, defense, or support. It would be the pro-uber side's job to list how it does any of the previously stated. Refuting the pro-uber arguments and listing counters basically sums all of what the anti-uber side's job here would be.

If you want a legit, point for the anti uber side, think of this. Banning Deoxys-S is a huge blow to offensive teams, and I'll tell you why.

1 - team preview shuts down the former suicide lead, whose job it was to set up rocks from the get go and start put the pressure on

2 - the loss of stealth rock as a TM move leaves many former offensive stealth rock users in the dust, by forcing to pick whether to go with Gen 5 abilities/new moves or rocks, and more importantly it becomes difficult to find a pokemon who can set both rocks and spikes.

3 - this gen's current rock/spike setters are defensive archetypes, who force the a momentum drop to set their respective hazard, and force the user to now use two slots in the team to get both hazards needed.

4 - many of the newer more defensively inclined pokemon require both rocks and spikes, for the offensive counters to take them down

5 - few offensive teams have room for a spinner, keeping point 4 in mind, something like ferrothorn can come in with rocks up, and survive just about anything barring a fire type attack and set up its own hazards (not to mention how hard it is to kill under rain). So in the turn you have to switch to kill a ferro that may have taken the KO with rocks and a 2 layers of spikes down, you now have to deal with that extra layer of hazards on a team that is forced to switch much more than a stall team would be.


I know it's capable of much more than hazard setting, and I know that hyper offense is a play style a lot of players aren't fond of, but, banning Deoxys-S because of the style of play it supports, isolates a good sized group of players.

The other main reason I stand behind the anti-uber argument, is the snowball effect that the ban would support, which is the "I don't like this ban it" mentality. After Deo-S is gone, something new will become popular, and a lot of players wills tart to utilize this new thing, and another group will start to become annoyed with whatever this new pokemon is, and we'll be back here banning that pokemon... which will open doors to more things one group of people won't like and we'll be banning more shit until there's nothing left to play with.

I feel like what we really need to be encouraging, is not banning things people don't like, but, simply encouraging people to find new ways to play around them.

 

[waterwarrior]

Can we also stop with the "I use a set no one else uses, but the fact that I can use it makes it Uber. And the fact people don't expect it makes it better!"

Again, I bring up Smeargle and Mew. They can do literally anything. Yet they're in NU/UU.

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

Again, I bring up Smeargle and Mew. They can do literally anything. Yet they're in NU/UU.

Deoxys' stats are tailor-made for support. He has the speed, the offensive power, the support move pool, and the offensive move pool.

Smeargle's stats are garbage and Mew actually gets out-classed in nearly everything except Stallbreaking and Baton Passing. That's why they're NU and UU respectively.

 

[waterwarrior]

Smeargle's stats are garbage and Mew actually gets out-classed in nearly everything except Stallbreaking and Baton Passing. That's why they're NU and UU respectively.

However, I can use a Double Dance Mew to sweep you. I can even use Smeargle to help in that to give it even more boosts! Smeargle is an even better DS user than Deoxys because while Deoxys can only Taunt it, Smeargle can completely shut it down with Spore! Fire Blast can be put on the Mew, that helps with Scizor and Ferrothorn. Tyrannitar is easy with Brick Break. I mean, come on, Mew's movepool is endless, nothing can counter it!

Now do you see why I'm annoyed to hell with this shit? -.-

 

[complete legitimacy]

Are you saying people having CB Scizor and/or spinners because of deoxys is a bad thing? I mean spinners have a ton of utility and CB scizor is an excellent revenger and overall strong attacking pokemon.

It's not like Blaziken bringing out pokemon like Azumarill, who have little use other than revenging Blazken, and a small handful of water weak pokemon who would not die to Scizor's bullet punch.

Also, what would you consider a legit argument from the anti-uber side? What makes a pokemon uber, is generally classified as offering too much offense, defense, or support. It would be the pro-uber side's job to list how it does any of the previously stated. Refuting the pro-uber arguments and listing counters basically sums all of what the anti-uber side's job here would be.

If you want a legit, point for the anti uber side, think of this. Banning Deoxys-S is a huge blow to offensive teams, and I'll tell you why.

1 - team preview shuts down the former suicide lead, whose job it was to set up rocks from the get go and start put the pressure on

2 - the loss of stealth rock as a TM move leaves many former offensive stealth rock users in the dust, by forcing to pick whether to go with Gen 5 abilities/new moves or rocks, and more importantly it becomes difficult to find a pokemon who can set both rocks and spikes.

3 - this gen's current rock/spike setters are defensive archetypes, who force the a momentum drop to set their respective hazard, and force the user to now use two slots in the team to get both hazards needed.

4 - many of the newer more defensively inclined pokemon require both rocks and spikes, for the offensive counters to take them down

5 - few offensive teams have room for a spinner, keeping point 4 in mind, something like ferrothorn can come in with rocks up, and survive just about anything barring a fire type attack and set up its own hazards (not to mention how hard it is to kill under rain). So in the turn you have to switch to kill a ferro that may have taken the KO with rocks and a 2 layers of spikes down, you now have to deal with that extra layer of hazards on a team that is forced to switch much more than a stall team would be.


I know it's capable of much more than hazard setting, and I know that hyper offense is a play style a lot of players aren't fond of, but, banning Deoxys-S because of the style of play it supports, isolates a good sized group of players.

The other main reason I stand behind the anti-uber argument, is the snowball effect that the ban would support, which is the "I don't like this ban it" mentality. After Deo-S is gone, something new will become popular, and a lot of players wills tart to utilize this new thing, and another group will start to become annoyed with whatever this new pokemon is, and we'll be back here banning that pokemon... which will open doors to more things one group of people won't like and we'll be banning more shit until there's nothing left to play with.

I feel like what we really need to be encouraging, is not banning things people don't like, but, simply encouraging people to find new ways to play around them.

To the first part of your argument, I say: "Banning Excadrill was a bad idea because it hurt Sand Offense too much!"

To the second part of your argument, I see that we have some level ground that we can work with. While this has already started to an extent, I don't see anything else being banned after Deoxys with the sole exception of Baton Pass. Weather will always be controversial, but that's how it's been from the beginning of 5th gen.

However, I can use a Double Dance Mew to sweep you. I can even use Smeargle to help in that to give it even more boosts! Smeargle is an even better DS user than Deoxys because while Deoxys can only Taunt it, Smeargle can completely shut it down with Spore! Fire Blast can be put on the Mew, that helps with Scizor and Ferrothorn. Tyrannitar is easy with Brick Break. I mean, come on, Mew's movepool is endless, nothing can counter it!

Now do you see why I'm annoyed to hell with this shit? -.-

Then I can obviously run a Chesto Berry and Superpower to deal with this. Not a Lum Berry, a Chesto Berry. As you can see, this a pointless game to play. The difference between Deoxys's versitality compared to that of Smeargle and Mew is that they're actually viable. I'm not saying that Deoxys can run Agility / Protect / Detect / Endure. There's a difference between doing it because you can and doing it because it's viable.

 

[Ningildo]

Then I can obviously run a Chesto Berry and Superpower to deal with this. Not a Lum Berry, a Chesto Berry. As you can see, this a pointless game to play. The difference between Deoxys's versitality compared to that of Smeargle and Mew is that they're actually viable. I'm not saying that Deoxys can run Agility / Protect / Detect / Endure. There's a difference between doing it because you can and doing it because it's viable.

Aside from the analysis sets and Mostwanted's self made set, what else can Deoxys-S do good that isn't outclassed?

 

[doughboy]

How can Smegle "completely shut it down with Spore" in the face of Taunt other than by running Magic Coat?

Therein lies the problem, the only way to beat/counter Deoxys is by a certain move/set that would be completely unviable/waste of a slot.

And to those saying HO would die and that we are alienating a large amount of players, you do realize that there are a huge amount of dual screeners right. Off the top of my head I can think of Espeon, Latios, and Brongzong/Jirachi being great ones. Whoa, why have we never seen these sets? Well, because Deoxys-S outclasses them all and this is what upsets me. The same thing applies to the hazard setter (I know team preview took away leads, but I'm talking HO suicide leads). Ever seen Frosslass with Spikes or Cutsap Berry Forretress? Again, Deoxys outclasses them all, why use them if you can get your stuff up 90% of the time with Deoxys?

This has been argued to death. I'll try to keep my point in one sentence. Deoxys supports teams in a fashion that makes it's opponent's run unviable counters to beat it while also suppressing other pokemon sets, but its ban will not adversly effect the options of HO teams.

Man, limiting the options for my mono-psychic team sucks :( But this is how I learned of this point. So many good screeners for mono-psychic, all outclassed by one poke.

 

[Challenger]

However, I can use a Double Dance Mew to sweep you. I can even use Smeargle to help in that to give it even more boosts! Smeargle is an even better DS user than Deoxys because while Deoxys can only Taunt it, Smeargle can completely shut it down with Spore! Fire Blast can be put on the Mew, that helps with Scizor and Ferrothorn. Tyrannitar is easy with Brick Break. I mean, come on, Mew's movepool is endless, nothing can counter it!

Now do you see why I'm annoyed to hell with this shit? -.-

I could see how you'd be annoyed with someone making that exact Mew argument. But it isn't Mew, it's Deoxys.


I think one of the biggest debate points here is Deoxys-S's ridiculous speed stat to go along with its movepool. Because of that, it literally needs no investment in speed EVs, freeing up bulk EVs or even a mixed set.

Once again, it's not that Deoxys-S does one overpowering thing. Imo, you have to decide on its tiering based on the fact that it can do nearly anything well, i.e. versatility.

 

[Thorns]

I think one of the biggest debate points here is Deoxys-S's ridiculous speed stat to go along with its movepool. Because of that, it literally needs no investment in speed EVs, freeing up bulk EVs or even a mixed set.
.

it's worth nothing that virtually every deoxys-s will run max speed and a speed boosting nature just so it doesn't get outsped 100% by another deoxys-s, unless it speed creeps the tier below and takes shadow ball or something else that lets it take on mirror matches

what this says for how ubiquitous deoxys-s is as well as the entire sub-metagame it's created is fairly obvious

 

[Nails]

it's more that it doesn't have any real use for the other evs. it can already take a bullet punch and can't invest enough to take two, there aren't any horribly relevant special attacks that it needs to live, and it wants to outspeed scarfers so might as well dump in the extra couple evs to max out. it's not running max speed only for other deoxys-s.

 

[idiotfrommars]

This was posted in the PO forums, but I felt it was good enough to put here.

On a similar note, I'd like to bring Deoxys-S back up (a much more common threat than baton pass chains.) If BP chains require excellent prediction and sharp responses to your opponent's play, dual screens deoxys is the exact opposite. No matter what kind of team hes facing, Deoxys S has one goal: set up screens, maybe some rocks, and die. Unless DeoS faces a specific counter ala Sableye, he does the exact same thing every match. In this way hes like the Moody 'mons, or SubSD Garchomp, both of whom used essentially the same strategy in every match regardless of what their opponent had or did. And what happened to Chomp and the moody bunch?

The worst part about Deoxys S is that not only is he unresponsive to his opponent, but he encourages the rest of the team to be unresponsive as well. Nobody makes smart switches or brilliant move predictions behind screens - they set up and they fire away until they die. Regardless of whether or not you think Deoxys S and the HO teams he enables are overpowered, you have to acknowledge that they are uncompetitive.

This really got me thinking about Deo-s in general. No I don't feel it is overpowered, but do I think it is good for the meta-game? Also no. It is too easy to just set up with Deo-s and go with it. Leading to less strategy and less planning. We should be striving for the most competitive and skill based meta-game and I think Deoxys-s is in direct contrast with that.

 

[Myzozoa]

I swear to god if people think HO is so easy to play I suggest they actually use it. Even if you know how to build an HO team, which is not, despite what I hear from this thread, easy at all (throw 5 sweepers together!!), playing it is another thing altogether.

While I by all means support banning Deoxys-S, it isn't plausible to somehow assert that it should be banned because it makes Screens teams broken. What makes screens teams broken is team preview and Excadrill being gone. What promotes unresponsiveness is team preview.

What might be considered 'brilliant prediction' is not at all as crucial to playing at a high level as being able to plan for the long term. You won't win games just by throwing together a team and thinking 'ok, beginning set sr, then okay he has that pokemon i need to kill it, oh he has another pokemon, better kill it too. Oh he has 4 more pokemon I better get them too.' You have to recognize what your important pokemon are for that battle's particular team matchup. Then recognize which of your opponent's pokemon are preventing you from exploiting advantages you have. After that you recognize which of his pokemon are threatening to you. This is what skill is in BW OU.

And like Excadrill, Deoxys-e is one of the best pokemon at abusing information from team preview. Does my opponent have a rapid spinner? Ok, I can wait till its dead to set up my hazards. I can even lure the spinner by leading with Deoxys-e, after its dead, send it back in. Does my opponent have a priority user? I'll make sure its dead before I mop up with my LO+3 attacks Deoxys-e. All pokemon have something to gain from team preview in some instance or another, but Deoxys-e tends to derive a much greater advantage from it. Look at Dragonite or any set-up sweeper. The extent it gains from team preview can be reduced to "this pokemon of my opponent's I will be able to set-up on" and "I am (not?) a threatening sweeper to my opponent's team." On the other hand Deoxys-S as a support pokemon with ridiculous versatility, even with only a 4 slot moveset assumed, has all these benefits and the added value of being confusing for your opponents. Its a dice role every time. I may be Deoxys-S plus 5 momentum pokemon, but I may be screens (to ease set-up), I may be full hazards (wear you down), I may be LO (mop up after my sweepers are done). You don't know, all you know is that you better find out before you lose the match before turn 1 begins. No other pokemon is as confusing as Deoxys-S.

Ok thats enough rambling and ranting

tl;dr Team Preview makes Deoxys-S too good.

 

[Pocket]

Team Preview makes Deoxys-S predictable.

The lack of team preview is the reason why Deoxys-S was broken in DPP, and a manageable OU threat in BW. The Speed advantage and the inability to switch your lead during DPP meta made it ridiculously easy for Deoxys-S to stack entry hazards. Its also the same reason why Deoxys-S worked so well as an end-game cleaner, since bait-and-kill-walls was a much more effective strategy when one does not know the hidden Sweeper. With Team Preview of Gen V, it's not hard to realize that you must preserve a key tank or a key revenge killer to prevent the opponent from sweeping you.

Team Preview allows the opponent to lead off with his best answer to Dual Screen / Spike-stacking Deoxys-S, which was not consistently possible sans Team Preview last gen. You may not necessarily need to lead with Deoxys-S, but for a HO team, setting up those Screens and /or hazards is crucial for the team's end goal in sweeping the opponent's team before getting swept. Not leading with Deoxys-S puts the HO player at an overall disadvantage. Thus, Team Preview allows you to prepare for Deoxys-S, who will almost always start the game, thereby limiting the utility of Deoxys-S in HO teams.

I guess LOrb Deoxys-S can be unpredictable, if the opponent lacks a full line-up of Set-up sweepers that screams Dual Screen or Volt-Turn mons that hint Spike-stacking. However, its insane Speed and great coverage is not enough to outright break through opponent's defensive core. Unlike the spike stacker or the dual screener Deoxys-S that provided useful support, LOrb Deoxys-S requires support from the team to be particularly useful. Unpredictability and versatility are not enough to transform Deoxys-S into an overwhelmingly powerful late-game Sweeper.

 

[Myzozoa]

How can this be true? In Generation 4 there was a lead metagame, and during the time Deoxys-e was Ou there were leads prepared to deal with it. This discussion can go around and around in a circle as I can say "I can predict the best time to send in my pokemon" And you can say "Well I can see it and prepare for it" Its my opinion that just to be able to prepare for Deoxys-S, as one would like to be able to, requires using pokemon that are unfit for much beyond that.

The need for rapid spinners in the metagame would be largely reduced but for Deoxys-S. So with Excadrill gone, Deoxys-S creates a centralization around it that is undesirable. Many pokemon that can Rapid Spin are not so good against momentum teams, so even when its intended advantage is negated, it still supports its team. Tentacruel and Forretress are particularily unthreatening, while Starmie is weak to both U-turn and Volt Switch as well as quite frail.

 

[alexwolf]

What, Dragonite can't beat Deoxys now? If DNite leads, you Taunt him before you get a Reflect up. A smart Dragonite player will see that and just deal 52.6-62.1% with Dragon Claw (Dnite has Max Attack with Lum). Now you either Reflect (where you'll die to Dragon Claw + ESpeed) or get out of there. Either way leaves it without both screens up.

You don't have to Taunt.You can always setup Reflect since Deoxys outspeeds Dnite even at +1.If he used DD the first turn you can now Taunt him while he fails to ohko(he is practically at -1)and finally setup the 2nd screen or SR in the 3rd turn while he ohkoes.

Wait a minute! You wanted to beat Forretress and Scizor, so you have HP Fire and not Superpower! It looks like you're countered....

I don't even get to who you are talking.I never said that Deo will want to beat those 2 pokes.
All i said was that Deoxys can ohko Ttar while Espeon get murdered by Scarftar and Bandtar.

 

[Taylor]

This really got me thinking about Deo-s in general. No I don't feel it is overpowered, but do I think it is good for the meta-game? Also no. It is too easy to just set up with Deo-s and go with it. Leading to less strategy and less planning. We should be striving for the most competitive and skill based meta-game and I think Deoxys-s is in direct contrast with that.

I would have to argue in that the way it effects the metagame's overall competitive strategies and the way in which matches are carried out signals that Deoxys-S, who already got extremely lucky with the "snowball effect" when Thundurus and Excadrill were deemed Uber, is "overpowered" by sheer individuality and the benefit it provides for any team.

 

[andysensei]

To the first part of your argument, I say: "Banning Excadrill was a bad idea because it hurt Sand Offense too much!"

To the second part of your argument, I see that we have some level ground that we can work with. While this has already started to an extent, I don't see anything else being banned after Deoxys with the sole exception of Baton Pass. Weather will always be controversial, but that's how it's been from the beginning of 5th gen.

Paragraph one is bullshit, because sand offense is A) highly specific and B) still has Terrakion, Lando, Various T-Tars, etc. Whereas Deoxys on offensive teams from sand to sun to rain to weatherless, doesn't have a replacement for its job.

Paragraph two, is also bull shit. The banning of pokemon is what opens doors to new pokemon becoming dominant, which is what leads to these banning discussions. For example, people are hating Deoxys right now because of how annoying volt-turn teams become when this thing lays down rocks and at least a layer of spikes.. Volt-turning would be far less prevalent without scarf Rotom-w and scarf Rotom-w wouldn't have become a factor if Excadrill was still here, or Thundurus with its priority t-wave..

Trust me, people play the game to win, and people will use the strat that's easiest to win with. When Deoxys-S goes, another one will blow up. And we will back here. The recent suspect tests haven't been about what's "broken", but, what's dominating and what's disliked. Excadrill was hardly broken. Switch in Bronzong.. or a mach puncher, or Gliscor, or vac wave Lucario, or any fighting type w/ air balloon.. It really only had the ability to hit with one rather weak coverage move, and EQ. Anything with bulk, even a rock neutrality, and air balloon, levitate or flying typing could eat its rock slide and hit back with something to KO it barring flinch (but relying on flinch to say it beats its counters is like saying Terrakion beats Gliscor due to Stone Edge's 30% crit rate). Its defenses are fucking 60/65.. even with its decent HP stat just about any decent STAB would KO it. We banned because we didn't like dealing with it. That mentality won't be satisfied with banning Deo-S.

This has been argued to death. I'll try to keep my point in one sentence. Deoxys supports teams in a fashion that makes it's opponent's run unviable counters to beat it while also suppressing other pokemon sets, but its ban will not adversly effect the options of HO teams.

riiiiight. The ever common scarf Terrakion, CB Scizor or CB Dnite are running unviable sets. @_@

 

[Eggbert]

And like Excadrill, Deoxys-e is one of the best pokemon at abusing information from team preview. Does my opponent have a rapid spinner? Ok, I can wait till its dead to set up my hazards. I can even lure the spinner by leading with Deoxys-e, after its dead, send it back in. Does my opponent have a priority user? I'll make sure its dead before I mop up with my LO+3 attacks Deoxys-e. All pokemon have something to gain from team preview in some instance or another, but Deoxys-e tends to derive a much greater advantage from it. Look at Dragonite or any set-up sweeper. The extent it gains from team preview can be reduced to "this pokemon of my opponent's I will be able to set-up on" and "I am (not?) a threatening sweeper to my opponent's team." On the other hand Deoxys-S as a support pokemon with ridiculous versatility, even with only a 4 slot moveset assumed, has all these benefits and the added value of being confusing for your opponents. Its a dice role every time. I may be Deoxys-S plus 5 momentum pokemon, but I may be screens (to ease set-up), I may be full hazards (wear you down), I may be LO (mop up after my sweepers are done). You don't know, all you know is that you better find out before you lose the match before turn 1 begins. No other pokemon is as confusing as Deoxys-S.

While I completely agree with the first half of your post, dealing with rapid spinners isn't really that easy, assuming the standard spiker set with two slots for hazards and two for (any) coverage. Starmie walls almost every set and can take out deoxys with hydro pump. Tentacruel usually carries protect to scout for psycho boost. Forry completely walls it barring hp fire and even in the worst scenario can use sturdy to spin. Deo isn't going to outlast these pokemon when most things in OU can 2hko it. It's a matter of making it take damage while it sets hazards. If you are running offense you could have things like CB Scizor to limit its hazards.

The only set that can be really threatening and set up hazards is this one i've been testing on a u-turn team:

Deoxys-s @ Life Orb
36 Atk / 244 SpA / 228 Spe
- Stealth Rock
- Psycho Boost
- Hidden Power Fire
- Superpower

If it forgoes life orb and coverage it will not be able to threaten spinners away. It can't do it all. You can use things that aren't threatened by both sets to scout.

It pressures the other team with its powerful attacks serving as a revenge killer and sets up SR before it falls or an a predicted switch. It also hits 2 of the common spinners. Here's what i've found: It gets a surprise KO if the opponent isn't careful (even then, it gets walled by psychics and steels) then and sometimes gets up SR. It's not really much different from running CB terrakion and murdering half of a team and having something like heatran who can set up SR very reliably. It's like latios spamming draco meteor and gettings KOs. And in the end, it dies in 1-2 hits and the bulky spinner wins. If it doesn't run LO and coverage it is really unthreatening and prone to being outright KOd.


Deoxys can threaten to kill you checks to it while also threatening to spike when you don't do anything. There are so many ways to stop deo without running weird mons. But it can't do both and there are alot of things that can break this mold. You can honestly just bring TR reuniclus into this thing can 2hko it while it might taunt and limit its hazards. You can run occa scizor and 2hko it limiting it to 1 hazard. You can wall it with starmie nearly every time. Lati@s doesn't really care about its attacks and can 2hko with dragon pulse. If they ice beam, they lose their hazards. You can even OHKO it with scarf gar as mentioned in this thread. Once people realize that there are plenty plenty plenty of ways to stop deo reliably without limiting team options this "centralization" will end.

The difference between Deoxys and the other suspects: It is possible to beat deoxys without limiting team options! Excadrill had gliscor and bronzong as counters, and weather, random priority, and skarmory as a check (listing skarm as a check because it could only really whirlwind, doesn't matter). That clearly limits teams. Garchomp had no solid counters since it could break through all of them with a miss or two. However deoxys is a completely different story. I've listed just a few of the extreme options that can easily be effective and fit into teams while beating deoxys. There are many more as well.

 

[Treadshot A1]

I've listed just a few of the extreme options that can easily be effective and fit into teams while beating deoxys. There are many more as well.

Just that one word throws off your argument. If its extreme, then it means that Deoxys does force people to use things they wouldn't otherwise.

TR Reuniclus, I don't run a TR team, and all my mons are fast, so would be hurt by TR. Also, it still gets one layer, as you yourself said, it only "limits it's hazards", not stopping them.
Occa Scizor, while I run Banded Scizor on all my Scizor-using teams for its sheer power. Also, you you said it in your post, "limiting it to 1 hazard", again, not stopping it.

The thing to remember is, no matter how much we keep bringing up the same old 'counters' (seriously, TR Reuniclus has been mentioned since the first few pages), most teams don't pack these Pokemon, and even those that do can leave themselves open one hazard, and often that's at the cost of being attacked (Lati@s would need to 2HKO with Dragon Pulse, letting Deoxys Ice Beam first, then hazards next turn befo dying, leaving you with a severely weakened Lati@s and the Deoxys player with one layer of hazards).

I'm still saying Über, for it's sheer versatility, it's so called counters being only checks at best, and for the fact it's checks differ depending on its set and it can deal well against the checks for other sets (so a spinner does nothing to stop Screen Deoxys, while a Brick Breaker (lol, Brick Break) can stop a Spiker).

 

[waterwarrior]

Just that one word throws off your argument. If its extreme, then it means that Deoxys does force people to use things they wouldn't otherwise.

However, you're forgetting the fact that custom sets still don't add to it being broken.

Unless a set has made a noticeable impact on the meta, it should not be considered in this discussion.

EDIT: I was referring to Eggbert's set, not the standard Deo-S sets

 

[Treadshot A1]

However, you're forgetting the fact that custom sets still don't add to it being broken.

Unless a set has made a noticeable impact on the meta, it should not be considered in this discussion.

That has nothing to do with what I said. Unless you care to elaborate, I don't see how my post dealt with custom sets at all. It deals with the fact that you have to run specific counters to Deoxys, how each counter in actuality doesn't counter Deoxys, only serving to limit it to less hazards while often sacrificing a large amount of HP, and why I think that is Über. Nothing to do with custom Deoxys sets at all.

Edit: Eggbert's use of the word Extreme, was in reference to the Pokemon that he claims can beat Deoxys, while I tried to prove that not only a) being extreme means that you are using things you wouldn't normally, but also b) those counters don't actually work, at best they can be called checks, not counters, as they can stop Deoxys from doing its job, only hampering it slightly.

 

[Eggbert]

You misunderstand the use of the word extreme...by extreme I mean somewhat un-mundane stuff like occa scizor that you might not normally use but are still effective and useful and easy to fit on a team, ect. the examples speak for themselves. (reuniclus, scizor, latios, jirachi) are all very common and viable.

 

[Treadshot A1]

The Pokemon are common, but the sets aren't. If you need a specific set to beat Deoxys, then that's still controlling team building.

Secondly, I already pointed out, even in your own post, that your so called counters can't stop Deoxys from setting up one layer. Even if they limit it to one layer, they can only do so at the cost of health (see what I said about Lati@s in my earlier post).

Waterwarrior, I'm still not sure if I get what you mean. However, I will try to state my opinion, to the best of my understanding of your post. What you're saying, is that just because Eggbert's set does something, doesn't make it broken. Well, then I agree that custom sets don't make it broken (else everyone would be stuck using the same sets, and the game would be more and more boring). However, one cannot deny that Deoxys is one of the few pokemon who can successfully pull off the three sets of Hazards, Screens and Revenge Killer, and many other customs sets (of which Eggbert's is one). This is the problem. Since Deoxys needs only one or two turns to get it's job done, you can't scout it. So yes, while Reuniclus shuts down one set to only one layer of hazards, if it's not that set, then Reuniclus gets killed. Yes, Lati@s can limit it to one layer, but only one of Deoxys sets. If its not that set, then Lati@s gets destroyed. The versatility, even of its three main sets, is what to me, makes Deoxys broken. Also, many of these customs sets are not customs sets at all. The standard sets are all made of only two set moves, and the other two are coverage moves. So, a Screen set would have Reflect, Light Screen, Ice Beam and Taunt, or it could have Reflect, Light Screen, Stealth Rock and Superpower, it's still a Screens Deoxys. The sets aren't limited to a strit four moves, not even to three moves. A Hazards Deoxys needs only Spikes and Stealth Rock, and the other two slots are free for whatever it wants. The customs sets are only the ones who use only one Hazard (like only having Spikes, not SR), or only one Screen, etc. The others aren't custom sets, they are just the standard set. The problem we have with Deoxys is that it's standard sets only have two moves that are necessary. That means, even within the three standard sets, there is still much to be customised, and so the versatility it increased, and with that the unpredictablility goes up as well. That means even less chance to bring in a counter.

I'm still saying Über.

 

[waterwarrior]

About Latios, you only mention Dragon Pulse, and neglect the fact that Draco Meteor is also commonplace. Timid Scarf Latios does 82.2-97% with Draco Meteor, as well as outspeeding Deoxys. You either get off the Ice Beam and damage the Latios or get the layer of hazards off. If the Latios is Specs, its the same situation. You Ice Beam and damage the Latios or set up one layer of hazards, because you're going down in one hit.

EDIT: The hazards/DS set does only 36.4-43% with its Ice Beam against a 4 HP Latios, so you're probably better off putting the hazard down anyway, where the Latios escapes with full health.