Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.
Note: This feature may not be available in some browsers.
Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Frillish doesn't actually look that bad to me...its bulk is kinda similar to Slowking, but without Regenerator it doesn't have the same longevity. It can spin-block too.
Kinda like a shitty in-between of Slowking and Misdreavus, no?
Frillish is aweseome, one of my favourite NU pokes. It has great bulk( better then jellicent) and fantastic typing, as well as a movepool thats well catered to what it wants to do. Atm I run 252 HP 180 def 76sp def which prevents him ever being 2hkoed by +1 gear gromd after rocks (although this isnt right actually, it takes less) but his ability to both be a fantastic sawk check and a great klink check is what put him on my team. Also, with my spread he is barely 2hkoed by LO magmortars t-bolt (55%~ iirc), and so a more specially defensive spread allows him to tank even them. He pairs well with roselia as well, as she is massive klink bait and toxic screws him over completely, as well as sharing great defensive synergy. Do try him out, you won't be disapointed
Also I'd rather use recover over pain split easily
Frillish is aweseome, one of my favourite NU pokes. It has great bulk( better then jellicent) and fantastic typing, as well as a movepool thats well catered to what it wants to do. Atm I run 252 HP 180 def 76sp def which prevents him ever being 2hkoed by +1 gear gromd after rocks (although this isnt right actually, it takes less) but his ability to both be a fantastic sawk check and a great klink check is what put him on my team. Also, with my spread he is barely 2hkoed by LO magmortars t-bolt (55%~ iirc), and so a more specially defensive spread allows him to tank even them. He pairs well with roselia as well, as she is massive klink bait and toxic screws him over completely, as well as sharing great defensive synergy. Do try him out, you won't be disapointed
Also I'd rather use recover over pain split easily
Much better Klink checks than Frillish. Quagsire is the ultimate Klink check. Klink is moving anyway, and honestly I can think of more useful ways to provide a check for Sawk than Jellicent.
Much better Klink checks than Frillish. Quagsire is the ultimate Klink check. Klink is moving anyway, and honestly I can think of more useful ways to provide a check for Sawk than Jellicent.
...He wasn't saying that he uses Frillish specifically as a Klinklang check. He then went on to list all of the other great things Frillish does, and it really does check Sawk beautifully since 90% of them are choiced and Frillish is immune to fighting. Stop making posts just for the sake of making them.
Im confused. None of the suggested options stand up to the tiers best threats nearly as well as Slowking did. Modest LO Magmortar 2HKOs them all with Fire Blast, none of them can switch in on any of Gorebyss's moves, besides Shell Smash, and they still have trouble taking on Exeggutor (granted so did Slowking but he did very well against the other two) on top of being plain just bulkier and more flexible than any of the specially bulky Pokemon we have left. Of course we can't find one catch all check for all of the threats (ie finding something that can 100% replace slowking is impossible) in the tier now but bringing up pokemon who have a hard time dealing with the best special attackers is silly.
Modest LO Magmortar also 2HKOs Slowking with Thunderbolt, so yes, Magmortar is a truckstick. Lickilicky can take any of Gorebyss's moves, even post-smash and D-tail it away. Yes, we realize that nothing will replace Slowking, but Lickilicky and the like are the best options likely to be left. :/
Wish/Protect/T-Wave/S-Toss I think, with a physically defensive Miltank running Rocks, Body Slam, Heal Bell, Milk Drink. I have sweepers that appreciate paralysis.
Fighting resist is far from useless, LOTS of people run Sawk and Emboar, and plenty of people pack fighting coverage moves for Steel/Bulky normals. Resisting psychic is really useful, especially with the likes of Mespirit, if he's choiced you can protect to scout the trick.
Fighting resist is also useless when you're 2HKOd by CB Sawk's Close Combat, guaranteed, after rocks. Stone Edge also wrecks your shit. The predominant Fighting-type threats are physical (as expected...) and Hypno is not going to check them very well at all.
...He wasn't saying that he uses Frillish specifically as a Klinklang check. He then went on to list all of the other great things Frillish does, and it really does check Sawk beautifully since 90% of them are choiced and Frillish is immune to fighting. Stop making posts just for the sake of making them.
Fighting resist is also useless when you're 2HKOd by CB Sawk's Close Combat, guaranteed, after rocks. Stone Edge also wrecks your shit. The predominant Fighting-type threats are physical (as expected...) and Hypno is not going to check them very well at all.
Good thing he's a special wall then, and psychic is predominately special, minus psyshock, which he takes fine. If they are choiced you can protect to see what they are going to do, and cripple them with a status if they go for the fighting move as it shouldn't ohko if you're at reasonable health. Obviously a ghost is a better way to deal with a choiced fighting type, that doesn't even warrant mentioning, but there is still a use in having a fighting resist as opposed to a fighting weakness like a specially defensive normal type.
All ghosts check choiced fighting types, unless Sawk goes for the payback, or even Earthquake, in which case Frillish is dead.
Good thing he's a special wall then, and psychic is predominately special, minus psyshock, which he takes fine. If they are choiced you can protect to see what they are going to do, and cripple them with a status if they go for the fighting move as it shouldn't ohko if you're at reasonable health. Obviously a ghost is a better way to deal with a choiced fighting type, that doesn't even warrant mentioning, but there is still a use in having a fighting resist as opposed to a fighting resistance like a specially defensive normal type.
Good thing he's a special wall then, and psychic is predominately special, minus psyshock, which he takes fine. If they are choiced you can protect to see what they are going to do, and cripple them with a status if they go for the fighting move as it shouldn't ohko if you're at reasonable health. Obviously a ghost is a better way to deal with a choiced fighting type, that doesn't even warrant mentioning, but there is still a use in having a fighting resist as opposed to a fighting resistance like a specially defensive normal type.
..... Do you even know that the normal type has NO resistances? If you are going to post, make sure you have a grasp about the basics of Pokemon, because if you don't even know the fundamentals, you should not be posting here.
..... Do you even know that the normal type has NO resistances? If you are going to post, make sure you have a grasp about the basics of Pokemon, because if you don't even know the fundamentals, you should not be posting here.
That calc looks a little fishy to me, since Frillish only base 55/50 Defenses. Here's what I got from a Jolly Earthquake/Stone Edge at 252 HP: 58.6% - 69.1%. The safest threshold for Frillish to check it is absolute max, where it deals: 36.6% - 43.3%. This is not even considering Adamant (40.3% - 47.6%), which I imagine he'll want for Mesprit.
..... Do you even know that the normal type has NO resistances? If you are going to post, make sure you have a grasp about the basics of Pokemon, because if you don't even know the fundamentals, you should not be posting here.
It's a typo. Replace the second use of 'resistance' with 'weakness' and voila, the sentence makes complete logical sense.
Tbh, idk why you guys are all over Sabin's nuts. It's pretty obvious he plays this game and he's not being anywhere near as rude or overt with his points as you guys are. If you're going to jump into the thread just to correct him, at least verify that what you're saying is correct.
Tbh, idk why you guys are all over Sabin's nuts. It's pretty obvious he plays this game and he's not being anywhere near as rude or overt with his points as you guys are.
That calc looks a little fishy to me, since Frillish only base 55/50 Defenses. Here's what I got from a Jolly Earthquake/Stone Edge at 252 HP: 58.6% - 69.1%. The safest threshold for Frillish to check it is absolute max, where it deals: 36.6% - 43.3%. This is not even considering Adamant (40.3% - 47.6%), which I imagine he'll want for Mesprit.
It's a typo. Replace the second use of 'resistance' with 'weakness' and voila, the sentence makes complete logical sense.
Tbh, idk why you guys are all over Sabin's nuts. It's pretty obvious he plays this game and he's not being anywhere near as rude or overt with his points as you guys are. If you're going to jump into the thread just to correct him, at least verify that what you're saying is correct.
Frillish is pretty good, I was the one that brought it up initially, but if it's EV'd as a special wall it's comfortably 2hkoed by a CB EQ (which is neutral) and I'm fairly certain a CS EQ will do it after rocks.
I firmly recall ohkoing one with Crunch from Ursaring on PO.
Frillish is pretty good, I was the one that brought it up initially, but if it's EV'd as a special wall it's comfortably 2hkoed by a CB EQ (which is neutral) and I'm fairly certain a CS EQ will do it after rocks.
I firmly recall ohkoing one with Crunch from Ursaring on PO.
I love Ursaring, I really do, I run protect (instead of SD) to set up his toxic orb and tend to save him as a late game sweeper. I have paralysis support and find that even the variant I run (jolly/quick feet) packs more than enough power for a late game clean up.
I've had a go with a couple of other sets as well with limited success, I was running a rather lol Rest-talking set as being asleep triggers Guts and you can Rest-talk Thrash and Roar.
I also tried out a bulky banded set with Thrash which seemed to do alright but required a ton of prediction to be effective. Thrash is a pretty under-utilized ability, it's pretty much Outrage, the fact it's normal type (rather than Dragon) is a big pain though.
That calc looks a little fishy to me, since Frillish only base 55/50 Defenses. Here's what I got from a Jolly Earthquake/Stone Edge at 252 HP: 58.6% - 69.1%. The safest threshold for Frillish to check it is absolute max, where it deals: 36.6% - 43.3%. This is not even considering Adamant (40.3% - 47.6%), which I imagine he'll want for Mesprit.
Adamant Sawk has minimal usage, considering the number of things that it misses out on Speed-wise (Magmortar, other Sawk, Pinsir, everything at base 80 like Mesprit, Altaria, and Drifblim, and even Smeargle and Absol). I really do think most Ghost-types intended to be bulky should be physically defensive, as their immunities are best utilized in that manner.
Yeah, I understand that Hypno can tank Fighting-type hits better than Lickilicky can because of its resistance, but neither should be doing that anyway (and that's what you have teammates for). The Fighting resistance isn't useful when you're arguing that it's a better special wall, is what I was trying to say. And if you're going to say that resistances are an advantage Hypno has over Lickilicky, then I can equally say that Hypno's weaknesses are an advantage Lickilicky has over it. For example, it has no Pursuit weakness.
Yeah, I understand that Hypno can tank Fighting-type hits better than Lickilicky can because of its resistance, but neither should be doing that anyway (and that's what you have teammates for). The Fighting resistance isn't useful when you're arguing that it's a better special wall, is what I was trying to say. And if you're going to say that resistances are an advantage Hypno has over Lickilicky, then I can equally say that Hypno's weaknesses are an advantage Lickilicky has over it. For example, it has no Pursuit weakness.
Both are good arguments, and Lickilicky is immune to Shadow Ball as opposed to being weak to it, Magmortar (a common special threat as we've already identified) often carries Focus Blast, which is one example of where having a fighting resistance is useful on the special side. Being able to take psychic/psyshock better from Mespirit is also useful.
Eh, i already gave out my frillish spread, how bout we calc using that?
Jolly scarf sawk earthquake: 33.9% - 39.8% barely a 3hko and he will be recovering/wisping so he wont get the chnce to finish him, never a 2hko after rocks
Adamant scarf eq: 36.7% - 43.4% never a 2hko after rocks
+1 252+ klinklang gear grind: 35.5% - 41.8% never a 2hko after rocks, and scald always breaks his subs
Timid Scarf Magmortar thunderbolt: 56.6% - 66.9% is shows that with more sp.def he can not be 2hkoed:
Timid scarf thunderbolt vs max special defense: 43.8% - 51.8% a veryy good chance
Of course LO is a clean 2hko on Both, ignore my earlier post
Modest +2 gorebyss hp grass: 85.3% - 100.4% not that he can do much back, but still
The same Gorebyss to max sp def: 65.3% - 77.3%
Quick feet jolly ursaring crunch: 55% - 65.3%
Guts adamant ursaring crunch: 90.8% - 107.6% over 50% chance to live, clean ko with SR
Max atk adamant eviolite rhydon eq: 57.4% - 67.3% Remeber they share the same speed tier so he may scald/will o wisp him before it hits.
So yeah he is easily a sawk and a klinklang check, maybe not th e best but eh not much checks both.
Felt like putting in some other calcss too :p
Edit: it seems like we've moved of frillish as i was typing that, oh well :p
Eh, i already gave out my frillish spread, how bout we calc using that?
Jolly scarf sawk earthquake: 33.9% - 39.8% barely a 3hko and he will be recovering/wisping so he wont get the chnce to finish him, never a 2hko after rocks
Adamant scarf eq: 36.7% - 43.4% never a 2hko after rocks
+1 252+ klinklang gear grind: 35.5% - 41.8% never a 2hko after rocks, and scald always breaks his subs
Timid Scarf Magmortar thunderbolt: 56.6% - 66.9% is shows that with more sp.def he can not be 2hkoed:
Timid scarf thunderbolt vs max special defense: 43.8% - 51.8% a veryy good chance
Of course LO is a clean 2hko on Both, ignore my earlier post
Modest +2 gorebyss hp grass: 85.3% - 100.4% not that he can do much back, but still
The same Gorebyss to max sp def: 65.3% - 77.3%
Quick feet jolly ursaring crunch: 55% - 65.3%
Guts adamant ursaring crunch: 90.8% - 107.6% over 50% chance to live, clean ko with SR
Max atk adamant eviolite rhydon eq: 57.4% - 67.3% Remeber they share the same speed tier so he may scald/will o wisp him before it hits.
So yeah he is easily a sawk and a klinklang check, maybe not th e best but eh not much checks both.
Felt like putting in some other calcss too :p
Edit: it seems like we've moved of frillish as i was typing that, oh well :p
That's all good, it's nice to see the calcs, I'm pretty sure the clean OHKO from Ursaring was on a fully SpD defensive Frillish and it was certainly after rocks. I can see how investing physically would help it check more threats, but as shown the more powerful special sweepers (like Magmortar) won't have an issue breaking through it then.
Many would say Ursaring is outclassed by Swellow, but I'd honestly argue that this isn't true. Swellow tends to get walled by Steels and Rocks last I checked, whereas Ursaring carries Close Combat to deal with them handily. As mentioned above, he has Crunch to deal with ghosts, and to put the finishing touches on the mon, he has an amazing choice of either Guts OR Quick Feet to suit your playstyle and team's needs.
In short, the dude is, and has been for some time now, sorely underrated. Maybe it's because he's so plain, maybe it's because he's pure Normal, IDK.
Hypno is good if you are using it at his strengths. The most notable is Insomnia (great for checking Jynx, but is not that common here as in PO) and Wish is one of the few things it has over mesprit.
Hypno doesn't need so much investment to check sawk, i used 176 def evs and without a + nature and it beated every Scarfed Sawk all around (toxic sucks ok), which is the most common set. Hypno's problem is the lack of offensive presence (needs to use seismic toss) unless you use calm mind (or np but that's another story)
Frillish is okay and recover is nice but again is set up fodder, and is not a good check of klinklang considering that if it has sub it sets up on you.
Many would say Ursaring is outclassed by Swellow, but I'd honestly argue that this isn't true. Swellow tends to get walled by Steels and Rocks last I checked, whereas Ursaring carries Close Combat to deal with them handily. As mentioned above, he has Crunch to deal with ghosts, and to put the finishing touches on the mon, he has an amazing choice of either Guts OR Quick Feet to suit your playstyle and team's needs.
In short, the dude is, and has been for some time now, sorely underrated. Maybe it's because he's so plain, maybe it's because he's pure Normal, IDK.
I actually used Ursaring for quite a while though I only really played around with the Quick Feet version. It was incredibly strong especially if you had the opportunity to get an SD in, but between Toxic Orb, that turn to set up, hazards, Ursaring's frailty... it was really hard to keep Ursaring alive more than 3-4 turns, max. That coupled with dumb stuff like Alomomola that can tank even a Facade, then use Wish + Protect to heal it off and stall out Ursaring's timer made it even harder to work with. While Ursaring has more power to its name and Close Combat, I really like Swellow because it's fast enough to abuse Guts very well (Ursaring only outpaces base 105s with Quick Feet) and has access to U-turn so the fact that it's walled by bulky Rock- and Steel-types is generally moot if you build your team effectively.
I'm new to the tier, and I'm glad Klinklang and Swellow are moving.
On a side note, what do you think will replace Swellow as an offensive Flying-type attacker? Fearow? Altaria?
I'm new to the tier, and I'm glad Klinklang and Swellow are moving.
On a side note, what do you think will replace Swellow as an offensive Flying-type attacker? Fearow? Altaria?
We don't know that for sure yet. After all, both could end up staying. ;)
Fearow is awful even with Drill Run and Altaria has no reason to use its Flying-type STAB when it has Outrage. The next best we got is Dodrio, which isn't too bad of an option when you think about it.
