np: UU Stage 4 - I'm Dreaming of a White Christmas

[Matthew]

I have been following this for a while and I guess I'm just kind of curious about what you guys think are "common field conditions." Because if Spikes are so common why is it a concern? It's like Stealth Rock in OU I guess. It's just... there. You learn to live with it. However when you think that Roserade is too powerful because of STAB Leaf Storm and Sludge Bomb in addition to Spikes it would be considered more of an offensive pokemon. Thus it should be banned because of its extreme offensive stats. In the same bar as Froslass when you look at it, just because Froslass can prevent spins itself does necessarily mean that it can come in regardless. It's both hindered by Spikes itself (which people have said are ever-present) and it's Stealth Rock weak. As I said I don't know much about the UU metagame, but I'd assume one layer of Spikes and Stealth Rock isn't too difficult to set up. So why is there such concern about Froslass?

If this was fourth generation (which I'm aware it isn't), wouldn't we assume the Spikes to be a common field condition and thus ban the pokemon that can take apart the most common field condition. The only time where a pokemon was banned due to support clause (which I guess you could make the argument for Spikes), was Deoxys-S in fourth gen. Where literally every single lead was Deoxys-S because there was nothing that did its job better. It set hazards up and then maybe a screen or two if it was cocky. If you didn't run a Deoxys-S you'd basically lose since you lose the support it gives to the team.

If those themes don't apply to Spikes, Roserade, or Froslass I don't get where this is coming from.

 

[Heysup]

Scarf darmantian is the set I was referring to - if we're talking about LO Darmantian, Slowbro and bulky Rhyperior go from hard counters to a 2hko. This is especially relevant in Slowbro's case because due to instant recovery and Regenerator, it can otherwise wall Darmantian all day. Other sweepers have similar stories - Milotic can reliably switch into CB Rhyperior and threaten it with an ohko, forcing it out while it recovers. But with full hazards, it is ohko'd on the switch. Something like bulky shaymin can actually check rhyperior somewhat well by not being ohko'd by stone edge or earthquake and threatening an ohko back. With spikes support, stone edge is a guaranteed ohko. I mean, there are more examples, but the general point is that counters become shaky checks and checks become death fodder.

With full Spikes Scarf set is changed from a 4HKO to a 3HKO on Blastoise. Slowbro takes (32.74% - 38.83%) damage which is actually usually not 2HKO, it needs over average damage twice. Most of those attacks would function the same with just SR on the field. I could go on but you get the point. It seems like those Pokemon are no longer checks but they are even with full Spikes on the field.

More to the point, if you let someone get more than one layer of Spikes up without severely crippling them somehow (with your own Spikes or setting up some mon) then you're an idiot. We don't / shouldn't base our tiers around what idiots would prefer (joke if you want) in their metagame.

Also worth noting is that for Rhyperior you aren't listing counters. You're actually just saying "shaky checks are even more shaky with Spikes on the field".

I'm also not sure why you think making a pokemon harder to wall is trivial. Isn't that the entire point of why we had a support clause? Spikes makes a pokemon prohibitively difficult to wall.

Making a Pokemon harder to wall is not something that is "broken" its something that you do in Pokemon with attacks and by other means. Spikes is a way of doing that. If all it does is "do some damage" and you want to ban it, well, I'm sure you see where I'm going.

Maybe your confused of my distinction between what Spikes does and what Spikes would need to do to be broken. You need to say "Spikes makes it toohard to fend off Pokemon" where as I'm saying "Spikes makes it harder to fend off Pokemon".

So are you suggesting that darma, chandy, heracross, and zapdos are all broken? That they're not just effective because they can run past pokemon that would actually counter them because of residual damage? I'm not seeing that.

No, I'm suggesting that you're putting Spikes in the spot where it seems that those offensive Pokemon should be. You were explaining how those Pokemon dominate and the like with Spikes, but considering they do that anyway that makes Spikes less of a factor. To put it more simply, I'm saying it isn't because of Spikes that they dominate, it's because they are dominant forces themselves (with or without Spikes).

This is more what I was referring to:

It's not like last gen where we had Swellow that can't deal a billion damage to any Pokemon with Flare Blitz / Fire Blast / Megahorn and can only hit things with Facade / Brave Bird which is hard countered by so many things like Aggron and Regirock. With Spikes / Stealth Rock, Swellow could Facade on the switch, in U-turn, then next time beat almost all of those Pokemon leaving it with few hard counters when its list was originally very high.

I have been following this for a while and I guess I'm just kind of curious about what you guys think are "common field conditions." Because if Spikes are so common why is it a concern? It's like Stealth Rock in OU I guess. It's just... there. You learn to live with it. However when you think that Roserade is too powerful because of STAB Leaf Storm and Sludge Bomb in addition to Spikes it would be considered more of an offensive pokemon. Thus it should be banned because of its extreme offensive stats. In the same bar as Froslass when you look at it, just because Froslass can prevent spins itself does necessarily mean that it can come in regardless. It's both hindered by Spikes itself (which people have said are ever-present) and it's Stealth Rock weak. As I said I don't know much about the UU metagame, but I'd assume one layer of Spikes and Stealth Rock isn't too difficult to set up. So why is there such concern about Froslass?

If this was fourth generation (which I'm aware it isn't), wouldn't we assume the Spikes to be a common field condition and thus ban the pokemon that can take apart the most common field condition. The only time where a pokemon was banned due to support clause (which I guess you could make the argument for Spikes), was Deoxys-S in fourth gen. Where literally every single lead was Deoxys-S because there was nothing that did its job better. It set hazards up and then maybe a screen or two if it was cocky. If you didn't run a Deoxys-S you'd basically lose since you lose the support it gives to the team.

If those themes don't apply to Spikes, Roserade, or Froslass I don't get where this is coming from.

Froslass was banned last gen because it was proven that it caused Spikes to be a common field condition that was broken. It seems that people in this thread feel the same way about all of the sweepers. Logical thinking as far as I can tell, but I still disagree with it being a broken condition.

 

[Matthew]

But how is a common field condition broken, rather than the pokemon who use the common field condition to be get past counters to be broken?

EDIT:
To take my 4th gen example further the start of every match was basically a speed-tie to see whose Deoxys-S could Taunt the opposing one first. Its support was that good. Do these types of situations exist in UU as well?

 

[FlareBlitz]

With full Spikes Scarf set is changed from a 4HKO to a 3HKO on Blastoise. Slowbro takes (32.74% - 38.83%) damage which is actually usually not 2HKO, it needs over average damage twice. Most of those attacks would function the same with just SR on the field. I could go on but you get the point. It seems like those Pokemon are no longer checks but they are even with full Spikes on the field.

Fair enough. I hadn't actually done the calculations - I was going off my ladder experience. I can't count the number of times I've mowed down Blastoise and Slowbro with just Darmantian. Perhaps it's because I usually U-Turned out the first time and forced them out, but I recognize that it would make for a poor argument to say 'I outplayed my opponent so spikes are broken', regardless of how easy spikes makes it (hazards cause predictable switches).

Regardless, I feel like we're not discussing the correct issue. More on that below:

More to the point, if you let someone get more than one layer of Spikes up without severely crippling them somehow (with your own Spikes or setting up some mon) then you're an idiot. We don't / shouldn't base our tiers around what idiots would prefer (joke if you want) in their metagame.

This is a problem. I addressed this line of reasoning when shrang or smurf or whoever it was brought it up, and I will do so again here - I have gotten full layers set up on me. I have set up full layers on players like reachzero and tof, among others. I don't know that you could say that any of us are idiots.
There were games I've won and lost on Deoxys-D and Froslass speed ties. And in general, it's very easy for something like Deoxys-D to come in and set up spikes multiple times while beating any spinner down with taunt and toxic / seismic toss. Qwilfish functions similarly, I assume (haven't used it). The point is, I don't think anyone would be complaining about spikes if accelgor were trying to switch into attacks with its base 40 defense. The problem is more deoxys-d, with its base 180 defense, roserade with her base 125 special attack, froslass with her base 110 speed and ghost typing. These traits make their ability to set up spikes independent of player skill - the only way to reliable prevent them from getting multiple hazard layers on the field is by just outplaying your opponent (and if we're introducing that argument let's just say that I use froslass and regularly start matches 5-5 with two spike layers on the opponent's side and nothing on my side).

No, I'm suggesting that you're putting Spikes in the spot where it seems that those offensive Pokemon should be. You were explaining how those Pokemon dominate and the like with Spikes, but considering they do that anyway that makes Spikes less of a factor. To put it more simply, I'm saying it isn't because of Spikes that they dominate, it's because they are dominant forces themselves (with or without Spikes).

I don't feel like this really answered my question. I asked if you feel that darma / chandy / kingdra etc are broken. You mention that they are dominant forces by themselves - does that mean you recommend banning them?

I'm asking this because I have built teams with a whole bunch of good sweepers and all of them were consistently able to ignore their counters because of the existence of spikes (seriously, try RD special kingdra with spikes down). Obviously these sweepers are great outside of spikes support - swellow and moltres were pretty good without spikes too. The key, to me, is how easily they are able to bypass counters with support.

I don't know if you are aware of this, but I used to build teams without any hazards beyond a hastily thrown in Stealth Rock. After hail meta, I decided to build one oriented around spikes. I immediately noticed the difference - this was the team I peaked the ladder with (even though that's not worth much).

My ultimate point is this: it's obvious that this metagame is not particularly healthy or fun. It's equally apparent that it is heavily centralized around offensive teams with spikes support. I run into about as many spikestack teams as I did hail teams last round. There has to be a reason for this.

My question for you is, do you think this is an okay metagame? Or that there needs to be intervention from the senate? And if so, what would you propose should be done?

(Sorry for anything I missed / any grammar mistakes it's quite late)

 

[shrang]

This is a problem. I addressed this line of reasoning when shrang or smurf or whoever it was brought it up, and I will do so again here - I have gotten full layers set up on me. I have set up full layers on players like reachzero and tof, among others. I don't know that you could say that any of us are idiots.

There is also the question of people who aren't idiots, but misplayed, or were outplayed, as well.

 

[FlareBlitz]

There is also the question of people who aren't idiots, but misplayed, or were outplayed, as well.

Would you consider someone who let Staraptor come in as having "misplayed"?

A pokemon like staraptor was deemed offensively overpowering even though good players could beat it and bad players could not win with it. Sometimes that's just how the game goes. That's my point - calling an individual's play into question is meaningless when it comes to discussions of tiering status.

The most popular spikes users can consistently do their job between two players of relatively equal skill.

Maybe it would be better to boil the discussion down.

1) Can the most powerful spikers easily set up multiple layers of spikes?
2) Do spinners have difficulty eliminating spikes?
3) Are spikes imbalanced as a common field condition? That is, do they substantially increase the effectiveness of offensive pokemon to the point where these pokemon are imbalanced?

These are the three issues that should be discussed. Heysup seems to have a problem with point 3, and perhaps point 2 and 1 as well. Others seem to have a problem with only point 1, or only point 2, or perhaps all three. Personally, I would answer "yes" to all three questions above. I am curious as to how others feel, and what their reasoning is.

 

[Matthew]

Well of course Spikes increase the effectiveness of offensive pokemon. That's what they've always been used for. They've been used to wear down walls, put things into KO range, and deal passive damage for switching. This has been the case since GSC. I don't see how point three should even be there, because it in itself is true. The fact you call it a common field condition means that it is ubiquitous, each side has Spikes no matter what. Which means you both are on the same playing advantage. However your choice of Spiker is not limited to one pokemon. While some may be less used than others, you have a slew of pokemon to lay down Spikes, not hindering team building at all (aside from being more wary of using walls -- a main point in using the moves Spikes itself).

Number one is also a very strange thing to ask. Why would it matter if the most powerful spiker can get down three layers of Spikes. A better thing to look for is if you're forced to use one spiker because it is hands down the best, and only choice if you want to win. This is assuming you need Spikes to win, of course.

Better questions to ask would be:
Are the options for spikers extremely limited. Do the benefits that Roserade (high Special Attack and good STABs) and Froslass have (good movepool and Ghost-typing) completely negate the benefits of other spikers (Scolipede and its high Speed or Omastar who can switch to an offensive pokemon with Shell Smash)?

Is Spikes the issue or the pokemon who set up and abuse Spikes? Is Roserade or Darm the issue when we're talking about Darm destroying its counters with Flare Blitz with a layer or two of Spikes down?

Lastly, would such a ban be even worth it. As Aldaron even pointed out we're not going to implement any kind of Spikes ban in UU, so this is all of course theoretical, but is UU just supposed to be a hyper offensive metagame? People tier on preference, do people prefer a slower metagame?

 

[FlareBlitz]

Well of course Spikes increase the effectiveness of offensive pokemon. That's what they've always been used for.

Perhaps I should have been clearer. I meant, do they increase the effectiveness of offensive pokemon such that it breaks those (multiple) pokemon. I will rephrase.

The fact you call it a common field condition means that it is ubiquitous, each side has Spikes no matter what. Which means you both are on the same playing advantage. However your choice of Spiker is not limited to one pokemon. While some may be less used than others, you have a slew of pokemon to lay down Spikes, not hindering team building at all (aside from being more wary of using walls -- a main point in using the moves Spikes itself).

I don't agree with this at all. It would be like saying 'if we dropped zekrom and reshiram down to UU they would be balanced because both teams could use them and it wouldn't affect team building because you are not limited to just picking one'. Or, as a more pertinent example, 'both teams in gen IV uu can use froslass, therefore it's balanced'.

And there are multiple spikes, but it is extremely obvious that some are of a completely different class than others. Anyone who uses crustle over deo-d without a very strong team synergy reason is making an inefficient choice.

The fact is that UU spikers do affect team building in a profound way, most importantly in the number of support Pokemon that are viable. Every support pokemon you are using, you are risking a team slot that can get taunted and offer free spikes. Any time you use a pokemon that is walled by deo-d / rosie, you are risking free spikes. This limits the number of viable pokemon, and biases team building choices towards pokemon like raikou and levitators. I am not saying that this is the primary reason to ban these pokemon, but it is relatively apparent that they do have a huge impact on the metagame.

Number one is also a very strange thing to ask. Why would it matter if the most powerful spiker can get down three layers of Spikes.

That...is literally the content of question 3.

Are the options for spikers extremely limited. Do the benefits that Roserade (high Special Attack and good STABs) and Froslass have (good movepool and Ghost-typing) completely negate the benefits of other spikers (Scolipede and its high Speed or Omastar who can switch to an offensive pokemon with Shell Smash)?

On the other hand, why would this matter at all? We know what the best spikers are through metagame experience (it's not omastar or scolipede). But even if there were a large number of equally good spikers, the relevant point of concern is whether they, as supporting pokemon, cause a large number of sweepers to become imbalanced.

Is Roserade or Darm the issue when we're talking about Darm destroying its counters with Flare Blitz with a layer or two of Spikes down?

Roserade.

We've had this discussion in UU before. If a pokemon is broken with a supporting condition and not broken without it, we ban or nerf the supporting condition. This is why we banned Hippowodon instead of stoutland / alakazam / whatever else abused sand.

Lastly, would such a ban be even worth it. As Aldaron even pointed out we're not going to implement any kind of Spikes ban in UU, so this is all of course theoretical, but is UU just supposed to be a hyper offensive metagame? People tier on preference, do people prefer a slower metagame?

We will not be implementing a spikes ban. We may implement a ban on certain spikers if it turns out that spikers make it too easy for sweepers to sweep. It's not about playstyle at all, I'd be the happiest person in the tier if stall disappeared...

 

[shrang]

Would you consider someone who let Staraptor come in as having "misplayed"?

A pokemon like staraptor was deemed offensively overpowering even though good players could beat it and bad players could not win with it. Sometimes that's just how the game goes. That's my point - calling an individual's play into question is meaningless when it comes to discussions of tiering status.

The most popular spikes users can consistently do their job between two players of relatively equal skill.

Maybe it would be better to boil the discussion down.

1) Can the most powerful spikers easily set up multiple layers of spikes?
2) Do spinners have difficulty eliminating spikes?
3) Are spikes imbalanced as a common field condition? That is, do they substantially increase the effectiveness of offensive pokemon?

These are the three issues that should be discussed. Heysup seems to have a problem with point 3, and perhaps point 2 and 1 as well. Others seem to have a problem with only point 1, or only point 2, or perhaps all three. Personally, I would answer "yes" to all three questions above. I am curious as to how others feel, and what their reasoning is.

There is also:

4) Are the offensive Pokemon simply too good in the situations where Spikes are present?

I've now played quite a number of games of UU so I'm going to know what I'm talking about now. Quite frankly, I don't know why we're so hang up on Spikes when Rain Dance has been ridiculously easy to set up and abuse at the moment, but whatever. I've seen more Rain Dance than Spikestacking, but that's probably just me. Flare, I would like to see a list of Pokemon that you propose that Spikes break. Which Pokemon "sweep too easily" with say a layer of SR and Spikes down. Don't say three, because I have still yet to see a game where any more than 2 layers get laid. If the list isn't that long, it would probably better if we just banned those sweepers instead. If too many Pokemon are broken under Spikes, I'd much rather see we ban the top Spikers rather than Spikes itself. We banned Deoxys-S in OU, not Spikes.

EDIT:

Roserade.

We've had this discussion in UU before. If a pokemon is broken with a supporting condition and not broken without it, we ban or nerf the supporting condition. This is why we banned Hippowodon instead of stoutland / alakazam / whatever else abused sand.

Excadrill says hi. Blaziken says hi. Garchomp says hi. The number of Pokemon the supporting condition affects is also important.

 

[Matthew]

I don't agree with this at all. It would be like saying 'if we dropped zekrom and reshiram down to UU they would be balanced because both teams could use them and it wouldn't affect team building because you are not limited to just picking one'. Or, as a more pertinent example, 'both teams in gen IV uu can use froslass, therefore it's balanced'.

That is not what I said in the slightest. You cannot compare bringing those two down to UU because you'd be forced to use those two pokemon on a team to win. The Froslass example in gen IV UU is also completely awful. At that time in UU it was "use Froslass or basically lose." This isn't "use Roserade or lose," rather it's "use one of our many spikers or lose," which is a completely different situation. I really hope you see the flaw in this argument you just presented.

Also why does the support pokemon get banned? Just because? I mean I probably would say the same thing if the offensive pokemon was always banned, but why was the precedent set there in the first place?

EDIT:
How does Darm 1-2HKOing pokemon make it broken? I'm pretty sure there are tons of pokemon which can 1-2HKO a lot of pokemon with little to no support (nidoking). What is a broken offensive pokemon?

 

[spuds4ever]

I don't think that this argument that spikes makes offensive pokemon too powerful is relevant at all. Spikes is simply another form of offense used to deal out damage and give the offensive pokemon a hand. It's not as if it's uncounterable as there are spinners which defensive teams should have. And, yes, there are spin-blockers, but even they have a specific counter if you want to go that far in foresight. In short, spikes is just a different type of offense that needs a different aproach from defensive teams so IMHO, spikes are not broken as a whole.

I think the real problem is if the pokemon capable of this influential force in the game affect the tier too much and cause the tier to be unhealthily balanced by completely being oriented around them which is exactly what a tier looks out to ban.

 

[alexwolf]

I have been gone for 7 days and when i come back i see Spikes being suggested for a ban?
This is the single most stupid ban i have ever heard being proposed. Even the Baton Pass nomination on ou seemed better than this one. Are we really that much out of solutions? I don't think so...
As many have said if we have problem with Spikes,which is not certain, just ban the best users ffs. Why is it so difficult to ban Deoxys-D or Roserade?
And whoever implies that Spikes will continue to dominate even when Accelgor or Qwilfish lays them, must be surely drunk.

Also i told this before but i got totally ignored, even by the senate members which are supposed to talk about these matters in this thread but whatever, so i am going to say it once again: Hippowdon deserves to be retested! And Abomasnow/Snover also to a smaller degree!

Bronzong is one of the best answers to the sand sweepers and immune to spikes and sandstorm damage. Alakazam is also gone, so the power of Sand teams is severely nerfed.
So now Sand teams have Stoutland and the Sand Veil users to abuse. I don't think they will be too much to handle...

Now about Aboma and Snover. So the issues with Hail were misshax and Blizspam right? If we ban/combo-ban Snow Cloak then the only issue remaining will be Blizzspam right? Now add to the Blizzard absorbers the very bulky Bronzong that kills many Blizzspamers with Gyro Ball alone and you can see the nerf in Hail's power. Also add the loss of Mamoswine for Hail teams and so another loss in general power of Hail teams. Finally, if we unban Hippo then Hail will have another weather to compete with and will be absolutely manageable!

 

[fatty]

why would we drop hippo and aboma back down just because one mon became uu? are you going to run bronzong on every team? i'm sure competent players would find away around zong anyways, and people would just cry about sand for a second time around. I wasn't for the hippo ban in the first place, but again, i fail to see how one mon changes everything.

 

[alexwolf]

why would we drop hippo and aboma back down just because one mon became uu? are you going to run bronzong on every team? i'm sure competent players would find away around zong anyways, and people would just cry about sand for a second time around. I wasn't for the hippo ban in the first place, but again, i fail to see how one mon changes everything.

It's not just one pokemon. It's one very solid check/counter to many members of said play styles. And it is not the only poke that checks weather teams man. Are you seriously asking me if every player should run Bronzong? Come on... Of 'course there are others, but apparently they weren't enough so maybe they now are.
Also you missed the point were Mamo and Zam left, which are rather big nerfs for Hail and Sand respectively!

 

[TheBaron]

I think it is safe for the return of competent auto weather. Hippowdon can't do anything to Bronzong, unless he runs Fire Fang, in which case he still can't do anything.

 

[Ace Emerald]

That is not what I said in the slightest. You cannot compare bringing those two down to UU because you'd be forced to use those two pokemon on a team to win. The Froslass example in gen IV UU is also completely awful. At that time in UU it was "use Froslass or basically lose." This isn't "use Roserade or lose," rather it's "use one of our many spikers or lose," which is a completely different situation. I really hope you see the flaw in this argument you just presented.

I don't really see the difference between use Zekrom or lose and use spikes or lose. The idea that any player or team needs a move/pokemon/ability/whatever to win is the sign of an unhealthy metagame, at least in my opinion, and I'm sure its the same with many other people. Some things will always be better than others and some things will always be really good, and having those powerful moves/pokemon/whatever to win is natural, but when it gets to the point that something is mandatory or ubiquitous for being ridiculously good, it should be banned.

EDIT:
How does Darm 1-2HKOing pokemon make it broken? I'm pretty sure there are tons of pokemon which can 1-2HKO a lot of pokemon with little to no support (nidoking). What is a broken offensive pokemon?

The point isn't that Darm can 1-2hko random pokemon, the point was that Darm can 1-2hko would be counters. I'm promoting neither side right now (as Heysup pointed out earlier the Blastiose was inaccurate), I'm just clarifying what I understood as the point.

 

[Ice-eyes]

I don't really see the difference between use Zekrom or lose and use spikes or lose. The idea that any player or team needs a move/pokemon/ability/whatever to win is the sign of an unhealthy metagame, at least in my opinion, and I'm sure its the same with many other people. Some things will always be better than others and some things will always be really good, and having those powerful moves/pokemon/whatever to win is natural, but when it gets to the point that something is mandatory or ubiquitous for being ridiculously good, it should be banned.

Stealth Rock.

Just a question - all the Spikes KO discussion is taking into account both Rocks and Spikes; why is it Spikes that is considered broken where Rocks are not? (And there have been countless threads discussing pointlessly and circularly whether Rocks are broken, and they're still there).

 

[destinyunknown]

Switching Bronzong into hippowdon is not such a cool idea considering it could be a offensive hippo made to lure and weaken Stoutland's counters. It's truth that no offensive hippo was used in last metagame, but if it got unbanned (i doubt that so much but still) CB Hippo would be really cool to precisely do this, lure Stoutland counters and smash them hard (hippo's atk is pretty good).

That's aside from the fact that having just 1 counter more to a mon/playstile doesn't mean the BL thing should be unbanned.

For example, if metagross came down to UU, should it mean that staraptor got unbanned just for having another decent check? I guess everyone catch the point.

 

[Matthew]

I don't really see the difference between use Zekrom or lose and use spikes or lose. The idea that any player or team needs a move/pokemon/ability/whatever to win is the sign of an unhealthy metagame, at least in my opinion, and I'm sure its the same with many other people. Some things will always be better than others and some things will always be really good, and having those powerful moves/pokemon/whatever to win is natural, but when it gets to the point that something is mandatory or ubiquitous for being ridiculously good, it should be banned.

The point isn't that Darm can 1-2hko random pokemon, the point was that Darm can 1-2hko would be counters. I'm promoting neither side right now (as Heysup pointed out earlier the Blastiose was inaccurate), I'm just clarifying what I understood as the point.

You always need to use something if you want to win. That is never going to change no matter what you do. There will always be a #1 pokemon in a metagame, and such there will always be a dominant strategy that is the easiest one to use. Currently using Spikes is the easiest and most dominating strategy in the UU metagame. Once that is banned something else will rise up (maybe Dual Screens? I don't know), and take its place. Why is something being ever-present a bad thing? Stealth Rock is ever-present. Does that make it broken? Last generation it turned many 3HKOes into 2HKOes and 2HKOes into OHKOes. The counters are still counters, however if your opponent is smart enough to lay down a layer or two of Spikes then they're playing around that counter. It seems like a perfectly reasonable strategy to me.

A few people here have said that they can win without using Spikes, meaning it isn't mandatory to have them on a team. But it's fighting up hill without them. Not impossible, but damn hard to do. How does that classify something as broken?

 

[Ace Emerald]

Stealth Rock.

While thats true, this is UU not OU. I don't mean that as a jib or anything, merely a statement. We banned Hippo and Aboma instead of Exadrill and Garchomp. The precedents, voting tendencies of the communities, and metagame are different.

Just a question - all the Spikes KO discussion is taking into account both Rocks and Spikes; why is it Spikes that is considered broken where Rocks are not? (And there have been countless threads discussing pointlessly and circularly whether Rocks are broken, and they're still there).

The fact that spikes can hit double the damage that rocks can on most mons, and quadruple the damage rocks deal on others (assuming three layers, which as FB can easily happen to anyone) more then makes up for the damage not done to flyers, especially when the majority of spikes immune mons in UU aren't defensive. This means the majority of checks/counters will take significantly more passive damage switching in on spikes as opposed to rocks. Edit: Also see my elaborated argument on the difference below.

Edit:
@ Matthew

You always need to use something if you want to win. That is never going to change no matter what you do. There will always be a #1 pokemon in a metagame, and such there will always be a dominant strategy that is the easiest one to use.

l agree with you to an extent; there will always be a #1 pokemon with a strong, most likely easy to use playstyle behind it. But what I won't yield on is if this pokemon/strategy makes it inefficient to use anything else. I'm not suggesting that we ban something for being 'good', but if the current #1 strategy is so effective that using anything else is a waste of time, I believe we should ban it. Its not a fun metagame to face the same thing over and over. I'll take this time to tie in the SR comparison, and state why its different. SR does not create an entire playstyle. Many different teams use it, and one really doesn't do it better than the other. Spikes, as Flare Blitz has described, has created a new 5 good sweeper strategy. Now if the only reason this strategy is everywhere is because its a passing fad, I don't agree with banning it. But if the reason this strategy is everywhere is that its plain better than every other strategy, I'd support a ban, because its obviously not going anywhere fast, and I don't want to play the same repetitive metagame for at least the next three months.

 

[FlareBlitz]

There is also:

4) Are the offensive Pokemon simply too good in the situations where Spikes are present?

I've now played quite a number of games of UU so I'm going to know what I'm talking about now. Quite frankly, I don't know why we're so hang up on Spikes when Rain Dance has been ridiculously easy to set up and abuse at the moment, but whatever. I've seen more Rain Dance than Spikestacking, but that's probably just me. Flare, I would like to see a list of Pokemon that you propose that Spikes break. Which Pokemon "sweep too easily" with say a layer of SR and Spikes down. Don't say three, because I have still yet to see a game where any more than 2 layers get laid. If the list isn't that long, it would probably better if we just banned those sweepers instead. If too many Pokemon are broken under Spikes, I'd much rather see we ban the top Spikers rather than Spikes itself. We banned Deoxys-S in OU, not Spikes.

I will give you a list of some Pokemon I have used with spikes support who have been highly successful. I will say straight up that I have not done calculations for some of these, but I will also say that calculations don't really tell the whole story. There have been plenty of people who watch me play, plenty of people who have played against me, and plenty of people who have used my team. I'm sure they will offer their support for my argument, whether here or on IRC, if you ask.

Anyway, here is a non-comprehensive list. This is all with two layers and SR, as requested.

-Kingdra. Special set 2hkos all bulky waters with spikes support with the exception of Empoleon, also 2hkos snorlax, registeel, and umbreon, which should all be solid checks and counters. LO Outrage 2hkos every single bulky water without even setting up except for Empoleon (who still faces a small chance of a 2hko).
-Raikou. 2hkos snorlax with spikes support using +1 tbolt while avoiding a KO from anything. Snorlax normally gets 3hko'd and can 2hko raikou, moving this from a decent counter to an easily beaten check. 2hkos specially defensive registeel with thunderbolt now, meaning it doesn't have to outplay the registeel user nearly as badly in order to avoid status.
-Darmantian. LO set runs past Milotic and Blastoise with just Flare Blitz (which is nearly as strong as Superpower even resisted) when spikes are on the field - both avoid a 2hko with just SR. Scarf set 2hkos offensive Intimidate Arcanine with Flare Blitz with SR + 1 spike layers.
(I don't feel like doing calcs anymore so I will just put notes next to each one)
-Chandelure (choice sets no longer need to predict, as fire blast and shadow ball both ignore resists with spikes afield)
-NP / SD Mew (absurdly dangerous, because the only thing keeping mew in check is that fact that it's a little weak, you can't even easily revenge these sets because they're so damn bulky)
-CB Aerodactyl (don't laugh, this thing is dangerous, CB stone edge 2hko'd suicune with two layers and sr)
-Subseed Shaymin (subseed forces switches that are already harmful when used with spikes, but what makes this truly dangerous is its ability to 2hkos rosie with when two layers are afield)
-Krookodile (between moxie and fantastic STABs, the only thing holding it back is the fact that it's not really that strong without boosts. spikes is infamous for helping krookodile secure quick sweeps.)

Excadrill says hi. Blaziken says hi. Garchomp says hi. The number of Pokemon the supporting condition affects is also important.

Well, say hi back.

The specific question posed to me was Roserade v. Darmantian, so I answered it. Obviously if we determined that only one sweeper was broken with spikes support from multiple pokemon, we would ban the one sweeper.
But that's not the case.

And in your example, blaziken and garchomp were broken with or without support...

At that time in UU it was "use Froslass or basically lose." This isn't "use Roserade or lose," rather it's "use one of our many spikers or lose," which is a completely different situation.

What? It's not different at all. Are you seriously arguing that three broken spikes are actually better than one broken spiker just because you can pick which broken spiker to use?
The issue here is not "we should ban [pokemon] because it's a better spiker than other pokemon", the issue is "we should ban [pokemon] because it gets spikes too easily". That's why froslass was banned, and that's why if roserade had stuck around for a while longer, it too would have been banned. Note that when we banned Froslass, Roserade actually got more usage anyway....

Also why does the support pokemon get banned? Just because? I mean I probably would say the same thing if the offensive pokemon was always banned, but why was the precedent set there in the first place?

If we were just going to ban offensive pokemon every time, we wouldn't need to have had a support clause.
Generally speaking, it is preferred that supporting pokemon are banned because they generally support many, many pokemon. There are situations where this is not the case, and in those situations, the offensive pokemon will be banned.

How does Darm 1-2HKOing pokemon make it broken? I'm pretty sure there are tons of pokemon which can 1-2HKO a lot of pokemon with little to no support (nidoking). What is a broken offensive pokemon?

Nidoking? Seriously? Nidoking is never getting past Snorlax, Umbreon, and can't even 2hko bulky offensive pokemon like Porygon2. It can't even beat offensive pokemon even when it predicts correctly - Shaymin, for example, easily survives Ice Beam and outspeeds / ohkos back with LO Seed Flare.

A better example would be CB Rhyperior or Staraptor - but such a pokemon either has strong disadvantages (speed, 4x weak to common stabs) or is banned (staraptor). If you want to know what a broken offensive pokemon is, just look at staraptor. My contention is that spikes support makes far too many pokemon like staraptor.

I think it is safe for the return of competent auto weather. Hippowdon can't do anything to Bronzong, unless he runs Fire Fang, in which case he still can't do anything.

No.

Stealth Rock.

Just a question - all the Spikes KO discussion is taking into account both Rocks and Spikes; why is it Spikes that is considered broken where Rocks are not? (And there have been countless threads discussing pointlessly and circularly whether Rocks are broken, and they're still there).

I was expecting this argument. SJcrew already somewhat addressed it a while back, but I will try to do so again.

There are a large number of differences between stealth rock and spikes. For one, stealth rock has such a wide distribution and so many effective users that if a pokemon can abuse the field effect, it is probably more efficient to ban the pokemon than ban the move. This is definitely not the case with spikes, which has very few effective users and a proportionally larger number of pokemon who can take advantage of the stacking effect. Which brings me to my next point - spikes stack, with itself and stealth rock. As passive damage starts mounting, more and more sweepers because prohibitively difficult to wall. Stealth rock by itself will only do a set, predictable amount of damage to each pokemon. You never know how many layers of spikes are going to be on the field, so something you put on your team to counter a certain pokemon could end up being beaten by it, opening up your entire team to a sweep. And finally, while stealth rock is far, far more centralizing, I never claimed centralization as an argument for wanting spikes gone (in fact, I specifically stated it wasn't).

tldr: The biggest reason to focus on spikes over stealth rock is the marginal benefit of spikes over stealth rock. (Marginal in the economics sense, not in the sense of "trivial").

 

[shrang]

Anyway, here is a non-comprehensive list. This is all with two layers and SR, as requested.

-Kingdra. Special set 2hkos all bulky waters with spikes support with the exception of Empoleon, also 2hkos snorlax, registeel, and umbreon, which should all be solid checks and counters. LO Outrage 2hkos every single bulky water without even setting up except for Empoleon (who still faces a small chance of a 2hko).
-Raikou. 2hkos snorlax with spikes support using +1 tbolt while avoiding a KO from anything. Snorlax normally gets 3hko'd and can 2hko raikou, moving this from a decent counter to an easily beaten check. 2hkos specially defensive registeel with thunderbolt now, meaning it doesn't have to outplay the registeel user nearly as badly in order to avoid status.
-Darmantian. LO set runs past Milotic and Blastoise with just Flare Blitz (which is nearly as strong as Superpower even resisted) when spikes are on the field - both avoid a 2hko with just SR. Scarf set 2hkos offensive Intimidate Arcanine with Flare Blitz with SR + 1 spike layers.
(I don't feel like doing calcs anymore so I will just put notes next to each one)
-Chandelure (choice sets no longer need to predict, as fire blast and shadow ball both ignore resists with spikes afield)
-NP / SD Mew (absurdly dangerous, because the only thing keeping mew in check is that fact that it's a little weak, you can't even easily revenge these sets because they're so damn bulky)
-CB Aerodactyl (don't laugh, this thing is dangerous, CB stone edge 2hko'd suicune with two layers and sr)
-Subseed Shaymin (subseed forces switches that are already harmful when used with spikes, but what makes this truly dangerous is its ability to 2hkos rosie with when two layers are afield)
-Krookodile (between moxie and fantastic STABs, the only thing holding it back is the fact that it's not really that strong without boosts. spikes is infamous for helping krookodile secure quick sweeps.)

Just a quick clarify: For the bolded italic section, is Raikou at +0 when it 2HKOs Registeel, or +1?

As for the other Pokemon, the ones I have bolded are borderline broken in their right, IMO. Rain Dance is really common and easy to get up, and Kingdra fucking kills everything in the rain, and out of it, it is close to uncounterable as it is. Darmanitan and his base 140 Attack and Sheer Force is probably as ridiculous as you can get. Sure, you can "counter" him with Milotic and Suicune without Spikes up, but if you can only pull off two counters to this thing without Spikes up, it sounds pretty broken in and of itself to me (not to mention 3HKOing Suicune means you'll probably beat it sooner or later, since Suicune has no reliable recovery). Mew, well... even if it isn't outstandingly good at any one job, it is still ridiculously good in the fact that he has no one specific weakness (outside of typing).

The specific question posed to me was Roserade v. Darmantian, so I answered it. Obviously if we determined that only one sweeper was broken with spikes support from multiple pokemon, we would ban the one sweeper.
But that's not the case.

And in your example, blaziken and garchomp were broken with or without support...

They were not. Blaziken could not sweep anywhere near as many things without the sun, and I doubt people would have been as pissed off with Garchomp as they were if it didn't dodge 20% of your attacks all the time.

 

[SJCrew]

They were not. Blaziken could not sweep anywhere near as many things without the sun

Just wondering, what the hell is this even based on? What does a boosted Fire attack do for Blaziken other than allow him to spam it without risking the HJK miss? He didn't need Sun for Fire Blast -> HP Grass for Slowbro, as he 2HKOs it straight up with just rocks. As a matter of fact, he didn't need it at all. A simple Swords Dance set was effective in all weathers, even Rain, and was enough to singlehandedly break OU. Even when Politoed came in and canceled out his sunlight, you still had no counters for a +2 HJK + Stone Edge/Night Slash. And this is coming from a guy who used Blaziken on almost every team up until it was banned. How the fuck were you supposed to beat that thing in any weather?

Nidoking? Seriously? Nidoking is never getting past Snorlax, Umbreon, and can't even 2hko bulky offensive pokemon like Porygon2. It can't even beat offensive pokemon even when it predicts correctly - Shaymin, for example, easily survives Ice Beam and outspeeds / ohkos back with LO Seed Flare.

I agree with the rest of what you said, but this is wrong. Nidoking has Focus Blast to tear right through three of those examples, and can kill Shaymin with Sludge Wave and/or Fire Blast. I've killed plenty of Flygon switch-ins with Ice Beam too, since it's one of the only things to resist both of his STABs and it's pretty easy to tell when your opponent wants to get him in. All with just rocks.

Run a set of of Earth Power, Sludge Wave, Ice Beam, and Focus Blast and he really can 2HKO almost anything. Maybe Fire Blast over Sludge Wave to beat Brozong without having to predict with Focus Miss. The thing that really keeps him in line is not defensive threats, but offensive threats. A Nidoking player just salivates when he sees you're relying on things slower than him to beat him, especially when he has other tricks up his sleeve like Taunt...

 

[shrang]

Fine, Blaziken wasn't the best example, but the point was that we ban sweepers, not the overriding support condition wherever possible. Aldaron's Proposal was another one, although that one is for a different reason altogether.

 

[SJCrew]

The 'we' you're referring to is not a UU policy. OU may have done their best to avoid outright banning any specific weather effect, but the metagame here is quite different. Most of our walls are grounded and some of the speediest and most powerful Pokemon in existence have made their home down here. We really can't afford the 19-25% extra damage taking away what few checks things like Darmanitan and Chandelure have. Even moreso when not just the biggest and baddest, but all offensive threats are difficult to switch into because of the extra damage.

There aren't as many ways to circumvent this as there are in OU, where Ground immunities are way more common, Rapid Spinners are better, and spinblockers are much worse. If you want to talk to us about how things should be run down here, keep your examples limited to what UU can do about this offensive Spiking frenzy, since it ultimately decides what, if any, bans will take place.