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Most improved Pokemon (NO DW ALLOWED)

This thread isn't about Dream World abilities.

Anyway, I think Calm Mind users received the best overall buff (Shell Smash is great for Cloyster, but a lot of its users are too slow even at +2) in Psyshock. Being able to hit on both sides of the spectrum is great.
 
I think that Ferrothorn is the most improved Pokemon in 5th Gen. He didn't even exist in 4th Gen and look at him now; fully usable & the 6th most used OU Pokemon.

But on a serious note, you HAVE to include DW abilities because that's the biggest factor added to 5th Gen aside from 5th Gen Pokemon. Otherwise this thread might as well be called "Most Useful 5th Gen Moves + Rotom-W." Why even bother listing the Pokemon at this point.
Scald, Volt Switch, Shell Smash, Psyshock, Quiver/Coil/Shift Gear, V-Create, Dragon Tail, & Wild Charge /thread

I'd say around 75% of the rise & falls of Pokemon this Gen are from new abilities & new Pokemon and not particularly new moves. Outside of that, not a lot of Pokemon particularly improved outside of Rotom-W. (Which is very borderline since it was already "the shit" in 4th Gen)

Let's see, Magnezone got more useful due to Ferrothorn. Celebi got Nasty Plot. Lucario got Nast-...well Special Lucario sucks, we all know that. Eviolite made some Pokemon better but that's a giant can of worms. Smeargle & Gore-Tail (They're interchangeable) got SmashPass. Rain helps Pokemon like-WHOOPS no DW Abilities~.

This topic is pretty thin without DW abilities
 
Also consider changes to existing moves and abilities. Disable, Sturdy, Extremespeed, Lightningrod, etc.

And I believe Pokemon which gain an additional ability that aren't Dream World abilities, such as Cloyster and Skill Link, are allowed.
 
Don't forget Arcanine, this think improves even more during generations.

This generation has been bestowed with Wild Charge and Close Combat. Wild Charge is the improved version of its lackluster ThunderFang and Close Combat for avoiding Tyranitar to walling it, bar WoW obviously and killing the pink blobs, among others.

Also Smeargle has been improved with the better boosting moves of this gen, Gear Grind instead of Agility, Quiver Dance instead of CM, Tail Glow instead of Nasty Plot and Cotton Guard instead of Iron Defense.


Lucario can now truly sweep in the special side thanks to Nasty Plot addition.


Gengar has won a big boost with the accuracy boost in Disable.
 
My intention was not to talk about the pokemon that has improved having the DW ability. Obviously by change in "the metagame" it includes Drizzle, Drought, etc. But no "OMG Ninetales is awsom cuz of DW."
Dry Skin users got a bit more out of their bargain with the new rain-oriented metagame, but it itself didn't get better because of its ability. That's a bit borderline, but it's a bit of a hard topic to discuss.
Also, in terms of pokemon not mattering much, the pokemon does matter. Moves created need to be on good pokemon in order to be used well. For example, quiver dance arguably has a worse pokemon spread, pretty much the only given usable pokemon(in UU / OU) is volcarona, while Shell Smash was given to Baton Passers and Cloyster. (Sorry if I explained myself badly, I tend to do that.)

A bit more on topic, I'm kind of iffy about eviolite. It's fantastic for lower tiers stuck with previous evolutions, but I wouldn't think about using it in OU. Unless the poke has a source of recovery already, I wouldn't replace my lefties with an eviolite.
 
Katakiri said:
I think that Ferrothorn is the most improved Pokemon in 5th Gen. He didn't even exist in 4th Gen and look at him now; fully usable & the 6th most used OU Pokemon.

But on a serious note, you HAVE to include DW abilities because that's the biggest factor added to 5th Gen aside from 5th Gen Pokemon. Otherwise this thread might as well be called "Most Useful 5th Gen Moves + Rotom-W." Why even bother listing the Pokemon at this point.
Scald, Volt Switch, Shell Smash, Psyshock, Quiver/Coil/Shift Gear, V-Create, Dragon Tail, & Wild Charge /thread

I'd say around 75% of the rise & falls of Pokemon this Gen are from new abilities & new Pokemon and not particularly new moves. Outside of that, not a lot of Pokemon particularly improved outside of Rotom-W. (Which is very borderline since it was already "the shit" in 4th Gen)

Let's see, Magnezone got more useful due to Ferrothorn. Celebi got Nasty Plot. Lucario got Nast-...well Special Lucario sucks, we all know that. Eviolite made some Pokemon better but that's a giant can of worms. Smeargle & Gore-Tail (They're interchangeable) got SmashPass. Rain helps Pokemon like-WHOOPS no DW Abilities~.

This topic is pretty thin without DW abilities
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I'm with Katakiri here. I don't understand why DW abilities aren't supposed to be discussed. Ninetales is awsom cuz of DW. No one would be using it otherwise. Also, something like offensive Victreebel can be considered "improved" and not from Dream World, but only because of an OU-legal Pokemon getting Drought through Dream World. You can't really discuss what's good in a metagame that allows (certain) Dream World abilities without discussing some of those abilities.

And how are moves any different? Wild Charge didn't exist last generation, and Arcanine was improved by it. Justified didn't exist last generation, and we're not supposed to talk about how it affects Arcanine? Doesn't really make sense to me, but it's your thread I guess.

To get more on topic (I guess), I only saw one mention of the new Wish mechanics, but it allows Pokemon like Blissey, Chansey, and Vaporeon to basically become competitive Max Potions. Safe passing can be tough to do, but it can bring one of your Pokemon back from near-death under the right circumstances rather than just half healing them.
 
Entere said:
A bit more on topic, I'm kind of iffy about eviolite. It's fantastic for lower tiers stuck with previous evolutions, but I wouldn't think about using it in OU. Unless the poke has a source of recovery already, I wouldn't replace my lefties with an eviolite.
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Porygon 2 would like to have a word with you :p. Speaking of which, he got a nifty boost this Gen. In earlier generations, he was at best a niche counter to certain threats like Jolteon and Heatran, while also shutting down some of the game's weaker sweepers thanks to Thunder Wave and Recover. Now, he's more than viable in OU thanks to his ridiculous bulk from Eviolite. He doesn't even miss lefties that much because he's got an instant recovery move.
 
Scrawly said:
I'd probably have to put forward Gengar. It found a niche with an accuracy boost to Disable just in time for a glut of easy switch-ins that only carry one move to get through its immunities. Compared to the out-done choice user of last gen? Lovely.
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disagreeing, no one used choice gengar in 4th gen ever for a start, what with scarftar and scizor being on every team, subsplit and mysticgar (sometimes) were the only ones.

anyway, disble has limited practical use higher up the ladder and forces prediction wars, like against mach punching conkeldurr and scizor switchins on disable for instance. also the metagames prizing bulk loads more now what with drizzle everywhere and cb outrages / cc's fucking around, and gengar hates bulky mons because it isnt supposed to be hit back after attacking. also gengs is like begging for volt turn to come in and apply pressure
 
The main reason we're not talking about Dream World is because it's obvious what Pokemon are improved the most by their released Dream World Abilities. Politoed, Ninetales, and Espeon were NU before getting their DW Abilities and no other Pokemon shot from NU to OU between Gen 4 and 5 besides Gastrodon.
 
Politoed for his Drizzle ability. Dragonite going from BL to top of OU almost purely because of Multiscale
 
If we are looking at DW abilities it is definitely Ninetales and Politoed.
If not, then Rotom-W,Gastrodon and toxicroak are the most improved pokemon.
Gastrodon jumped from NU while Toxicroak jumped from UU. Both kept their abilites,however, gastrodon's ability effect changed. Rotom-W was OU in the previous gen as well however in this gen it is used a lot more and its function changed dramatically.
The reason why Gastrodon went up is familiar to everyone counters Rotom-w and has a nice ability.
Toxicroak went up because of its capability to sweep in rain.
 
I would love to say toxicroak. but he didnt really "improve." More like the metagame changed for him. He is a poke that is meant for UU but the ONLY reason he is used in OU is for drizzle. Even then his usage is sorta falling.
I would have to say Cloyster is the most improved without DW abilities. Seeing cloyster in Team prieview immediately raises an eyebrow to the opponent. I wouldnt even give shell smash all the credit, you cant forget about icicle spear that is a major improvment in base power. a 125 base power move with NO DRAWBACKS! YES PLZ!!
 
Cooky said:
disagreeing, no one used choice gengar in 4th gen ever for a start, what with scarftar and scizor being on every team, subsplit and mysticgar (sometimes) were the only ones.

anyway, disble has limited practical use higher up the ladder and forces prediction wars, like against mach punching conkeldurr and scizor switchins on disable for instance. also the metagames prizing bulk loads more now what with drizzle everywhere and cb outrages / cc's fucking around, and gengar hates bulky mons because it isnt supposed to be hit back after attacking. also gengs is like begging for volt turn to come in and apply pressure
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You clearly weren't playing at the beginning of 4th gen, before platinum. Choice scarf gengar was everywhere for awhile, I think gengar was even the most used pokemon for a bit. Choice scarf gengar with hypnosis was THE lead for awhile.

And while the disable boost was definitely a good thing for gengar, disable was certainly used in 4th gen even at 80% accuracy.
 
Sprocket said:
ExtremeSpeed. It picked this move up through HGSS, giving it the 3rd strongest ExtremeSpeed in the game behind Normal Arceus and Rayquaza.
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Deoxys says hi.

But since extremespeed is from gen IV, it shouldn't really be considered as an improvement anymore in gen V.
 
Apart from the obvious rotom-W, etc, I would have to say mamoswine. With gliscor and landorus actually seeing use now, and with the prevalence of powerful dragons, mamo has become an amazing anti-meta pokemon. It also now has icicle crash and a buffed icicle spear, giving it powerful offensive options. The thing has the two best STABs in the game right now.

Another pokemon that has become better is Celebi. The addition of nasty plot and leaf storm, along with the buff to giga drain have made it possible for celebi to fill a much more offensive slot. Like mamo, the metagame shifts have also benefitted celebi and grasses in general, as they now function as powerful rain checks and resist not one but both of rotom-W's STABs. Celebi doesn't exactly like all the uturn flying around, but it can survive and recover damage off of a uturn from most things not named scizor. With HP Fire and a grass STAB, celebi beats both sides of the sciztom combo which is ever so common right now.
 
Besides Rotom-W and Evolite users, I'd have to say that Gastrodon is another Pokemon that drastically improved. The main boost that it received was the upgraded Storm Drain, making it an excellent counter and check to many Rain threats. It also allows Gastrodon to take on Water types in general, and its access to Recover gives it the ability to stay in and check opposing threats far longer.

Dugtrio is another Pokemon that I really believe improved a ton. It actually didn't change much in and of itself. Well, it got Memento, which is pretty good, but nothing besides that. What makes Dugtrio good isn't its own improvements, but the changes in the metagame around it. With weather being more influential now than in any previous generations, Dugtrio finds a unique niche as a wonderful weather war weapon (try saying that 5 times fast). If the opponent's weather starter is weakened enough (or is named "Ninetales"), Dugtrio can guarantee that it will die and, if your weather starter is still alive, you win the weather war.
 
Anchormon92 said:
I'm with Katakiri here. I don't understand why DW abilities aren't supposed to be discussed. Ninetales is awsom cuz of DW. No one would be using it otherwise. Also, something like offensive Victreebel can be considered "improved" and not from Dream World, but only because of an OU-legal Pokemon getting Drought through Dream World. You can't really discuss what's good in a metagame that allows (certain) Dream World abilities without discussing some of those abilities.
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Thing is, we all know how much better things like Dragonite, Ninetales, and Politoed have become with the release of their DW abilities. Anyone who has ever set foot on the OU ladder knows it. If DW discussion were being allowed (and i think there's already a thread for it) then this thread would just be filled with "Ninetales and Politoed are awsum now". As it is, we can look at pokemon that have benefitted from the new metagame as opposed to looking at pokemon that are the current metagame.
 
How the HELL are we not talking about all the psychic-type special attackers that got Psyshock? This oddball of a move runs off of special attack, but hits the target's physical defense, making it unlike any other move in the game. Mewtwo even gets his own buffed-up version in Psystrike! (ohey Zoap)

I'd make an argument for Blaziken. Even without his speed boost ability that made him so feared, amazing mixed attack stats coupled with the boost to the power of Hi Jump Kick made him someone to look out for. Then you throw in a metagame that was weather-centered for some time to give him a sun boost to his already respectable Flare Blitz (or Fire Blast if you prefer), add a neutrality to Stealth Rock that is much envied among his fiery brethren and you had a fearsome, if somewhat plodding, threat. And besides, 80 speed is fertile ground for Choice Scarf!
 
The Truth said:
Thing is, we all know how much better things like Dragonite, Ninetales, and Politoed have become with the release of their DW abilities. Anyone who has ever set foot on the OU ladder knows it. If DW discussion were being allowed (and i think there's already a thread for it) then this thread would just be filled with "Ninetales and Politoed are awsum now". As it is, we can look at pokemon that have benefitted from the new metagame as opposed to looking at pokemon that are the current metagame.
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I agree with that. I think we have to give each other more credit than we are right now though. Yourself and Agent Gibbs were two of the last three people to comment on this topic, and you both started with "Apart from Rotom-W...". We all know that Ninetales and Politoed have vastly improved. I don't think everyone's going to just say "Ninetales and Politoed are awsum now" because not everyone is saying "Why are we even talking about this? It's obviously Rotom-W." Usually, people want to contribute something new and interesting to the topic rather than repeating what everyone else said. But maybe I'm being too optimistic about this. I just think it's a little sad that things like Poison Heal Gliscor and Prankster Sableye aren't going to be discussed just because we're afraid that people won't be able to think past the few blatantly obvious choices.

They were mentioned before, but Quiver/SmashPassers like Venomoth, Gorebyss, and Smeargle really improved. The ability to boost so many stats so quickly and give the boosts to any Pokemon on your team can be gamebreaking if your opponent isn't prepared. While Smeargle had some Baton Passing niches in previous generations, the new moves help him pass more useful boosts more quickly. Venomoth and Gorebyss didn't really have any niches in Gen IV, but as perhaps the most viable passers, can function in OU.
 
dugtrio and gastrodon wins. for dugtrio, the metagame and the importance of winning the weather war really hit the spot.
 
Amazed I didn't see it mentioned, but: Lightningrod's new mechnic makes for those that have good special atk take a t-bolt/thunder/volt switch/wild charge, and convert it to more power. It also makes double battles where you want to throw these moves around and having LRodder sitting there kinda stupid i.e.

Electivire used Thunderpunch/Wild Charge
Manectric's Lightningrod
Manectric's Sp Atk rose.

User: FFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUU!!!!!!!

Still, helps Manectric/Raichu/anything else that can properly use it, switch in on a elec move and play "I has Flamethrower(Manectric)/T-Bolt/Thunder/etc and you just helped me."
 
Well the only thing with Lightningrod that would see much time in OU is Zapdos. Most of them are still rather frail and Rhyperior and Marowak don't really have anything to do with the boost (that is, if they even got it).

Discharge spam is a nice strategy in Doubles/Triples, but Surf spam is generally better as you can use Politoed to boost its power.
 
Lirris said:
Amazed I didn't see it mentioned, but: Lightningrod's new mechnic makes for those that have good special atk take a t-bolt/thunder/volt switch/wild charge, and convert it to more power. It also makes double battles where you want to throw these moves around and having LRodder sitting there kinda stupid i.e.

Electivire used Thunderpunch/Wild Charge
Manectric's Lightningrod
Manectric's Sp Atk rose.

User: FFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUU!!!!!!!

Still, helps Manectric/Raichu/anything else that can properly use it, switch in on a elec move and play "I has Flamethrower(Manectric)/T-Bolt/Thunder/etc and you just helped me."
Click to expand...

The problem is that things like manectric, even after absorbing an electric attack, just plain aren't good enough to compete in OU. Let's say that you bring manectric in on rotom-w's volt switch, against a standard voltturn team. Lando just comes in and takes you out. I think that the new Storm Drain mechanic is much better than the new LightningRod due to actually making a niche for gastrodon in OU, whereas lightningrod hasn't actually pushed any weaker pokes up in the ranks. DW zapdos will be pretty awesome though, it's a shame about losing heat wave.
 
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