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np: NU Stage 2 - Part of Your World

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*Notices Senate thread*

Yeah, I can agree with that, especially as the big names seem to cancel each other out. 'Byss is handled by Jynx and Scarf Rotom. Jynx dosen't like Magmortar. Magmortar dislikes 'Byss. Scarf Rotom dislikes things like Golem, and Stealth Rock.

And somehow teams are showing rather good diversity despite the levels of centralisation around the big names. Mainly because of all the little niches, be it support, tanking, or offense.

Stallers are so few and far between a stall team in NU tends to be a spinblocker, frail hazard layers and a couple of tanks.

It's ironic, isn't it? The tier that's been around the least amount of time, and had no manual bans done to it, is the first tier to be in a state of balance.

Of course, how long until RU or Trollfreak screw it all up?
 
Also as clarification to the senate thread, there will be no specified end to this round. If the majority of people feel really strongly about one Pokemon being suspect (and I mean overwhelming majority, think Shaymin-S majority) then we'll talk. Other than that we're pretty much... balanced again (and not just balanced but diverse)!
 
honestly, i like using a scarfed krokorok in nu. it can come in for a revenge kill and either go out again later, or take out as much as possible with moxie. it has stuff that fucks it up of course (bulk up gurdurr gets a special mention), but its nonetheless underrated as a revenge killer.
 
Full2Half said:
honestly, i like using a scarfed krokorok in nu. it can come in for a revenge kill and either go out again later, or take out as much as possible with moxie. it has stuff that fucks it up of course (bulk up gurdurr gets a special mention), but its nonetheless underrated as a revenge killer.

While I do enjoy discussion about underused/underrated Pokemon, Krokorok just isn't viable in NU. It's very weak, and even against offense teams it won't do much. Sure it revenges stuff like Jynx and Magmortar, but it's also set-up bait for things such as RP Torterra and Shell Smash Gorebyss. (It doesn't even outspeed Gorebyss when it's at +2!) Offense teams will usually have a switch-in for Krokorok, whether it be something like Intmidate Tauros, Sawk, or Drain Punch Regirock. (Regirock doesn't get 2HKO'd, in case you were wondering.) There's always Choice Scarf users to revenge Krokorok, too; it's pretty slow.

Against more defensive teams, Krokorok is a joke. So many things can switch-in to it such as Quagsire, Lickilicky, Tangela, Gurdurr, and Weezing, and laugh at the little damage they receive.

If you plan on using Krokorok for late-game sweeping, you have to remember that many things resist one of Ground/Dark in NU so you have to be very careful which move you lock yourself into. The more powerful STAB, Earthquake, is especially risky to be locked into as there are numerous Flying-types/Levitating Pokemon in NU.

Anyways, while I am questioning Krokorok's use here, I am interested to see the success you have/might have in the future with it. Perhaps Krokorok really is an impressive Pokemon, and I'm missing something. :)
 
tennisace said:
Well that's odd since Dragonair gets Marvel Scale not Multiscale from the Dream World. Marvel Scale is the one Milotic has; it boosts Defense by 50% if statused. Multiscale reduces hits at full health. Anyway you should be using Shed Skin on Dragonair regardless since it allows you to set up on Misdreavus!

Oh crap, then I have an illegal Dragonair in my game x.x
 
so, recently I noticed that many teams were very vulnerable to the combination of Garbodor and Magmortar; Toxic Spikes helps to wear down most of magmortar's checks, such as Regirock and Camerupt, although of course the biggie Altaria still beats it. Many teams are completely unprepared for Toxic Spikes, meaning they die fairly quickly if Garbodor can get them up; oftentimes one layer is enough to aid me tremendously. LO/Ebelt Magmortar is one of the most dangerous mons in NU, only having a few counters depending on it's type of Hidden Power, and can break teams easily. Obviously, when using this combination you need to have something for Altaria, I have been using Golem who reliably gets up Rocks as well as killing Altaria, although another option is always welcome. Teams without Altaria struggle to find a switch in for it, with the obvious Camerupt being handled by Toxic Spikes and strategic play. Spikes also help with Magmortar, however I have often found that I cannot find a window to get both up and most of the time Toxic Spikes is better. Furthermore, Magmortar destroys most of the common Poison-types such as Vileplume and Amooguss, meaning it is a choice between bringing in camerupt and getting him permanently toxic'd or bring Vileplume into Magmortar which is never going to end well.
Go try it out people!
 
Toxic Spikes are just in general a pretty nice thing to have on the opponent's side of the field nowadays, and even a single layer can be pretty crippling for most threats - Regirock gets his recovery from Leftovers taken away, Life Orb recoil for something like Absol or Magmortar is going to be that much harder to take all at once. It's really kinda sad that Garbodor is the only viable Toxic Spiker at the moment, but the above combo of Magmortar + Garbodor can really apply to any powerful Pokemon with only defensive checks.

That said, Choice Band Sawk is great if you need a wallbreaker that requires little to no support. It can actually 2HKO Misdreavus with Stone Edge for one thing (!!!!!!), which means the same thing for any Haunter coming in to be immune to Close Combat. Close Combat just rips through everything else in the tier as well - you OHKO most relevant threats cleanly, and Sturdy lets it act as an excellent check to whatever Pokemon is out on the field. This only works if SR is off the field, but that's quite often just a matter of keeping your momentum when faced against an opponent (which you can do with CB Sawk!).
 
Yeah, Toxic Spikes are fantastic and in some cases, can be even more useful than Spikes, due to the fact that nearly every standard mon or major threat is vulnerable to them. Shnen's post has really planted some curiosity in me as to how Offensive teams could utilize Toxic Spikes. I could see a combination of Stallbreak Misdreavus and Toxic Spikes being absolute hell for what few Defensive teams exist, SubCM Drifblim [another fantastic stallbreaker] could prove extremely fatal for stall with these as well. Toxic Spikes also eat away at Lickilicky and Quagsire, two common staples of stall, so there's a high chance they could come in battered and at low health. While this idea is probably deadly to the well-being of stall, I figured I'd share, since it seems interesting!
 
So I got a little curious and gave Magnemite a go. It's actually pretty good!

The set I'm running is:

Magnemite @ Choice Specs
Analytic
252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Modest

Thunder
Volt Switch
Flash Cannon
Hidden Power Grass

It's pretty slow, and gets that great Analytic boost all the time. It's really powerful too, it just 2HKOed an Altaria with Thunder. Not sure if it was specially defensive, but yeah. The bulk is alright as well. Not great, but its immune to Toxic Spikes, and has loads of resistances.

Go try it out!
 
November Blue said:
So I got a little curious and gave Magnemite a go. It's actually pretty good!

The set I'm running is:

Magnemite @ Choice Specs
Analytic
252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Modest

Thunder
Volt Switch
Flash Cannon
Hidden Power Grass

It's pretty slow, and gets that great Analytic boost all the time. It's really powerful too, it just 2HKOed an Altaria with Thunder. Not sure if it was specially defensive, but yeah. The bulk is alright as well. Not great, but its immune to Toxic Spikes, and has loads of resistances.

Go try it out!
I honestly can't see this being usable. Not only does it have absolutely terrible bulk (25/70/55 is abysmal, even with HP investment), it has common and exploitable weaknesses, and can hardly take advantage of his resists:
252Atk Guts poisoned Swellow (Neutral) Facade vs 252HP/0Def Sturdy Magnemite (Neutral): 67% - 79% (172 - 203 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
In addition to this, it is very slow, meaning that it can't really tank a hit and then hit back with analytic as his big brother Magnezone can and as he would wish too. Also, he is hard walled by Camerupt, who is fairly common. Also, he faces the issue of competition from Eelektross, who boasts Levitate, Flamethrower, Grass Knot and better bulk over Magnemite, as well as slightly different mons such as Raichu and Electabuzz who boast far better speed over him as well as Encore and Nasty Plot or Vital Spirit respectively. Also, why exactly are you running Thunder instead of Thunderbolt?
edit: @megakick As PO greys out the switch out button when you can't switch out, it would be easy for most people to notice that they aren't trapped, indeed most players who know their shit would easily switch out.
 
I'm a little iffy on that. Of course the offensive boost is nice but what worries me would be its ability to take hits then retaliate back. I've seen a magnezone work in similar fashion to that in OU but magnezone has better stats (besides speed which is lower.)
Fighting and ground are immensely popular offensive options so I kinda feel like you'd get taken out of commission before you can do much
 
It is a little hit-or-miss, but when it works it really works. The key is to Volt Switch all the time, and throw out an attack on switches or when Magnemite can tank a hit.

It's not the best thing ever, but it's surprisingly usable.
 
I hate to sound pessimistic but I did a few calcs and it didn't look good for little Magnemite. If only it had more bulk because you almost had me convinced. I just can't see it getting a teamslot ahead of Eelektross or Magmortar and co because their bulk makes up for the lack of resistances and they have more speed. I'm struggling to think of a niche for it.
 
I've been running a Specs Altaria, and man does it do work. It takes out a lot of the common Stealth Rock user[Most are physically defensive :) ] with a single Specs Draco and for everything else a teammate is used to handle it.(My team with it revolves around beating common SR users before they get their hazards up to give me free reign of Draco Spam with SR out of the field along with a large amount of Scarf Rotom-S shenanigans.)

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Azure Storm (Altaria) (F) @ Choice Specs
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 184 HP / 252 SAtk / 72 Spe
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast
- Hidden Power [Ground] / Dragon Pulse
- Rest

72 Spe EVs hits 314 Speed outspeeding everything hitting the 212 benchmark that Geo has created with Misdreavus. 252 SAtk and Modest for maximum damage output and the remaining EVs in HP, because with investment along with its good bulk and Natural Cure it becomes a great offensive pivot for things such as taking a Specs Eggy Leaf Storm and threatening their team with a Draco Meteor and other Pokemon such as Quagsire, whose own ability,Unaware, makes Draco spamming easier as a -6 Draco will be as strong as a stock one. Another plus is that 184 HP gives Altaria an odd HP number to come in 4 times into Stealth Rock before going down.

Draco Meteor and Fire Blast provide perfect neutral coverage in NU and HP Ground lets Altaria take care of things that would like to switch into it such as Probopass or Bastiodon, though if teammates can handle it well Dragon Pulse gets the job done as a way to clean up a weakened team late-game. Since Altaria is a great pivot and forces switches out once the opponent learns to fear its stylish glasses Rest allows Altaria to heal to full allowing Altaria to stay around for a long time throughout the match and let it unleash at least 4 more turns of Draco spam.

Damage Calculation Vs. SR Users
SpecsTaria Draco Vs. 212 HP Golem - 100% - 118% 2HKO due to Sturdy
SpecsTaria Draco Vs. 252 HP Regirock - 68% - 81% Guaranteed 2HKO (-2 Draco = 34% - 40%)
SpecsTaria Draco Vs. 252 HP Torkoal - 97% - 115% (81% chance to OHKO)
SpecsTaria Draco Vs. 252 HP Camerupt - 92% - 109% (56% chance to OHKO)
SpecsTaria Draco Vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Camerupt - 63% - 74% (High chance of 2HKO, -2 Draco = 31% - 37%)
SpecsTaria Draco Vs. 252 HP Mesprit - 65% - 77% (High chance of 2HKO, -2 Draco = 32% - 39%)
SpecsTaria Draco Vs. 252 HP Armaldo - 85% - 100% (6.45% chance to OHKO)
SpecsTario Draco Vs. 252 HP Miltank - 85% - 100% (6.25% chance to OHKO)
SpecsTaria Draco Vs. 252 HP Cradily - 63% - 74% (High chance of 2HKO, -2 Draco = 31% - 37%)
SpecsTaria Hidden Power [Ground] Vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Bastiodon - 60% - 71% 2HKO
SpecsTaria Hidden Power [Ground] Vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Probopass - 55% - 66% 2HKO
SpecsTaria Hidden Power [Ground] Vs. 252HP / EVIOLITE Lairon - 119% - 141% (Ability | 83.6 | Rock Head :] )
SpecsTaria Fire Blast Vs. 252 HP / EVIOLITE Metang - 70% - 83% 2HKO
SpecsTaria Fire Blast Vs. 252 HP Torterra - 83% - 98% 2HKO
SpecsTaria Fire Blast Vs. Pinsir - 141% - 167% (| 34.6 | Stealth Rock | and | 21.2 | Focus Sash | so about 13% of the time non-Sash Stealth Rock Pinsir appears it's a OHKO, the other 21%, its a 2HKO due to Sash)

The advantage of Specs over Draco Swap is that of course 2 Specs Dracos are stronger than 2 LO and with the extra power of Specs Altaria gets the ability to take out those Stealth Rock users in 2 turns. This is how Draco Swap will need to do to take out most of the above Pokemon = LO Draco, Power Swap, LO Draco. Specs goes like this Specs Draco, Specs Draco. On the offensive side Power Swap takes away a precious turn you could be spending attacking. 2 Specs Dracos will almost always get the job done, while Draco Swap will take 3 turns to do the same. At worst 3 Specs Dracos will get the job done as well as the 3 turn Draco Swap.(While after taking something out with Specs you'll be forced out, most of Altaria's checks/counters will be either physical or have an Ice-type move to force out Draco Swap out anyways.)
 
I'm liking it currently, I mean, certain Pokemon have risen to the top of the crop but that will happen regardless of what you ban. I feel there are enough Pokemon around able to counter the main threats at the top of the tier. The main problem which seems to be giving most people grief is Magmortar but Thick Fat Miltank walls it fine and Samurott has a powerful Aqua Jet to outright kill it if it gets a boost and can live a t-bolt. Sawk and Regirock, other common sights, have many checks, even with payback Sawk struggles to take out Misdreavus who can burn him.
 
I don't know why but I never seem to have a problem with Magmortar. While it hits hard with a life orb, its speed lets it down and enables pokemon like Sawk to outspeed and KO. The scalf set can also be worked around depending on what it locks itself into.
 
Sabinfrost said:
I'm liking it currently, I mean, certain Pokemon have risen to the top of the crop but that will happen regardless of what you ban. I feel there are enough Pokemon around able to counter the main threats at the top of the tier. The main problem which seems to be giving most people grief is Magmortar but Thick Fat Miltank walls it fine and Samurott has a powerful Aqua Jet to outright kill it if it gets a boost and can live a t-bolt. Sawk and Regirock, other common sights, have many checks, even with payback Sawk struggles to take out Misdreavus who can burn him.

Well Miltank doesn't wall Magmortar at all, unless its Choice Locked into Fire Blast. A LO Fire Blast on switch-in combined with Focus Blast will take out Miltank.(Versus 252 HP / 252 SpD+)
 
EBeast said:
Well Miltank doesn't wall Magmortar at all, unless its Choice Locked into Fire Blast. A LO Fire Blast on switch-in combined with Focus Blast will take out Miltank.(Versus 252 HP / 252 SpD+)

Thick Fat man, halves the damage, if you're running 252/252 SpD+ Fire Blast will do very little, Focus Blast (if it hits) does a lot more, but it wont OHKO from full health.

255 SpAtk Life Orb Magmortar Focus Blast vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Miltank: 83.25% - 97.97%
2 hits to KO (with Leftovers)

That's modest, not Jolly with a Life Orb, if it's L.O it's easy enough to kill with a Scarfer, if it's Choiced, Miltank is a decent check for it.
 
That focus blast has a really good chance to 1hit KO with rocks. Besides any smart magmortar players never fire blast off the bat if the opponet has a fire resist, they just fire off a thunderbolt to hit any water types coming in.
 
Not to nitpick, but a Thick Fatted Fire Blast is only 5 base power off Thunderbolt anyway.

Irregardless, Miltank can't even be considered a wall to Magmortar when it'll get 2HKO's and can't recover in time to save itself from Focus Blast.
 
Sabinfrost said:
Thick Fat man, halves the damage, if you're running 252/252 SpD+ Fire Blast will do very little, Focus Blast (if it hits) does a lot more, but it wont OHKO from full health.

255 SpAtk Life Orb Magmortar Focus Blast vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Miltank: 83.25% - 97.97%
2 hits to KO (with Leftovers)

That's modest, not Jolly with a Life Orb, if it's L.O it's easy enough to kill with a Scarfer, if it's Choiced, Miltank is a decent check for it.

Choiced Magmortar is extremely uncommon, and Jolly LO still OHKO's it. Overall, Magmortar's checks are few and far between and none of the bulky normal types can do more than check LO versions. I've actually found Stunfisk to be an interesting and very effective check to Magmortar, as it takes no more than 39% from Fire Blast with Max HP/SpDef and a positive nature iirc and immediately threatens it with Earth Power.
 
personally, i've found grumpig to be a solid answer to any magmortar set, as well as just a solid special pivot/cleric poke in general. dude gets 5hkoed by timid lo magmortars attacks at best, and can just wish off the damage and knock him off at ur leisure. same can be said for more or less any jynx, once u've foddered off a poke to sleep. low defenses and a pursuit weakness is a tad upsetting, but reflect somewhat remedies that, and usually cold-countering two top-tier offensive threats, as well as checking/countering various others, is pretty cool.
 
I tried to use Meganium in the upper tiers and found my usage of a Physical Sweeper set to be relatively successful in OU and UU (where Meganium has good teammates in each). Not sure if I could pull it off in RU/NU, but it's worth a shot.

I've also used Coil Serperior in UU to try and help him get up there with something that doesn't involve Contrary.
 
col49 said:
personally, i've found grumpig to be a solid answer to any magmortar set, as well as just a solid special pivot/cleric poke in general. dude gets 5hkoed by timid lo magmortars attacks at best, and can just wish off the damage and knock him off at ur leisure. same can be said for more or less any jynx, once u've foddered off a poke to sleep. low defenses and a pursuit weakness is a tad upsetting, but reflect somewhat remedies that, and usually cold-countering two top-tier offensive threats, as well as checking/countering various others, is pretty cool.

how can that be, when Grumpig doesn't get wish?
 
Cherub Agent said:
how can that be, when Grumpig doesn't get wish?

hmm, thats a good question .-. i have no idea where i got wish from, maybe i was thinking about hypno at that moment, i honestly haven't a clue.
 
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