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np: UU Stage 5 - Every Rose Has Its Thorns
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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I don't use scarfers for a late-game sweep. I use them to check faster threats. You can't revenge a Weavile with CB Victini, nor can you essentially guarantee that slower scarfers (Cross, Krook) won't sweep you. Victini is particularly awesome for this because V-Create is absurdly powerful and it gets U-Turn, allowing it to preserve momentum even if the opponent switches. Plus it's a bulky fucker (66% from LO Hitmontop Sucker Punch, lol).
The best application of Scarf Victini imo was back when hail was everywhere and Scarf Victini was the revenge killer of choice. It can't really sweep due to the speed drops, but it's real goal was just to force things out, since with stall (ideally) switches favor the stall team. I think Choice Band is better in bulky offensive or balanced applications because you are going to be forced out anyway, so you may as well demolish your switch-ins. I wouldn't recommend either on a heavy offensive team, since between the choice item and the Speed drops you are quickly losing the offensive pressure that you initially had. Sure, HO doesn't mind trading mons but you don't want to let up that pressure and give them the choice to revenge kill with something that can gain them back momentum. This is probably the reason we see Darmanitan basically taking over Victini's usage. Darm never lets up the pressure and forces you to use priority, a Scarf, or a defensive mon to force it out. Victini just likes to switch too much to work well in this Spikes-filled metagame.
If you're at the point where every time your Victini comes on the field one of your opponent's pokes dies from V-Create then you've really got the battle made already. In the case that the Nidoking was the answer your opponent had to your Victini only because the speed drop (for instance they also had a defensive Arcanine ready to wall you), then there never was a potential second kill.
I see the point you're making, but that isn't necessarily true. Lets say the battle has winded down to my 75% Scarf Victini and 35% Bronzong vs. your 94% LO Nidoking, 14% Roserade, 45% Deoxys-D, and say... 30% Snorlax. If I was using CB Victini, I could only get one kill, then be forced out by Nidoking and have to sac my Bronzong to get Victini back in safely. This means I would lose. With Scarf Victini, I have the battle won because I can get two kills in before I'm forced out by Nidoking.
This is the type of situation I'm referring to, not your scenario.
This is the type of situation I'm referring to, not your scenario.
OK I stand corrected then I definitely did not extend my thinking along the lines of this and seeing as how this scenario seems very plausible I think Scarf is a usable set for Victini then.
On another note I still think Arcanine is extremely worthy of use and discussion as a tank. I never really knew the difference between tanks and walls; I always assumed that tanks were less sturdy but could shoot more stuff down and were less passive. That seems to fit Arcanine perfectly as if its using a defensive set it often doesn't try to stall stuff out, it just uses its defenses to allow it to come in easily and then KO physical attackers via Flare Blitz or phaze them out if need be.
If you will, please take a look at every physical sweeper/wall breaker that does not have a super effective STAB against Arcanine. You will notice that in every single case if Arcanine switches in to counter, it can come out on top by KOing or phazing if its facing the physical attacker's more common sets, bar Stoutland and Bisharp trolling you with Stone Edge (although Defiant does mess you up a bit). Pokemon who do have STABs strong against Arcanine are still often checked by him, he can for instance, outrun and burn Rhyperior and Azumarril and proceed to wall them.
Arcanine is just too weak, in my opinion, right now when you compare it to Darmantian and friend, so why not play to its strengths?
Arcanine can go either specially or physically defensive max hp and about max in the desired defense with intimidate makes arcanine quite a bulky pokemon
Personally, I think bulky arcanine (or even just arcanine in general) has become inferior. He has intimidate, which is handy, but then he loses out on flash fire, which is also very handy. Couple this with a stealth rock weakness and vulnerability to all spikes and whose only decent damage outside of toxic causes a lot of recoil and a not so great recovery move and poor defensive typing, I think he finds himself out-classed.
Firstly, hitmontop, who resists SR, and can spin them off, proving more utility already than just a physical tank. He also gets STABed priority and fake out which greatly helps wear down the opponent once you've toxiced or whatever the target before he switches in as well as having a better defensive typing.
Secondly, I think Rhyperior also stands out as a better physical tank. With insane defense and attack, coupled with solid rock, ensure that he can take pretty much any non water or grass physical attack (which are rare in this tier) as well as hitting back extremely hard as he can afford to not take HP evs over attack, making a bulky CB set viable, and it's actually been very helpful to me as well as being able to set up SR, something else arcanine can't do, and also has a SR resistance.
Granted, both of these don't have instant recovery outside rest, but often arcanine having it doesn't usually make much of a difference seeing as very dedicated physcial attackers can break him down in two hits anyway.
In short, arcanine's going to have to do something drastic, as currently he's out-classed in pretty much every field.
Firstly, hitmontop, who resists SR, and can spin them off, proving more utility already than just a physical tank. He also gets STABed priority and fake out which greatly helps wear down the opponent once you've toxiced or whatever the target before he switches in as well as having a better defensive typing.
Secondly, I think Rhyperior also stands out as a better physical tank. With insane defense and attack, coupled with solid rock, ensure that he can take pretty much any non water or grass physical attack (which are rare in this tier) as well as hitting back extremely hard as he can afford to not take HP evs over attack, making a bulky CB set viable, and it's actually been very helpful to me as well as being able to set up SR, something else arcanine can't do, and also has a SR resistance.
Granted, both of these don't have instant recovery outside rest, but often arcanine having it doesn't usually make much of a difference seeing as very dedicated physcial attackers can break him down in two hits anyway.
In short, arcanine's going to have to do something drastic, as currently he's out-classed in pretty much every field.
I have to agree with Meru here. I've used defensive Arcanine a ton in the past, and it was great, but the current prominence of Sand teams make it quite a bit less reliable than I would like.
Here's the set I'm talking about:
Arcanine (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SDef
Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Flare Blitz
- ExtremeSpeed
- Morning Sun
- Will-O-Wisp / Toxic
Will-O-Wisp lets you stay in on stuff like Rhyperior and Swampert, burn it, and wall it for the rest of the game. Toxic lets you catch bulky Waters on the switch.
Just for reference, here's some fun calcs:
Adamant Scarf Heracross Close Combat: 30.5% - 36%
Adamant Scarf Heracross Stone Edge: 33.9% - 40.2%
Jolly Scarf Darmanitan Earthquake: 36.6% - 43.3%
So yeah you're walling all these fuckers unless Darmanitan predicts correctly and gets two near max damage rolls in a row as you switch into SR. Keep in mind those calcs are for Adamant when everyone actually runs Jolly, so in practice, you're walling the shit out of it. You're also tanking hits like a champ from shit like Weavile, Victini, and Escavalier, which not many Pokemon can claim.
But again, Sand will fuck with Morning Sun too much to make it worth it atm.
Here's the set I'm talking about:
Arcanine (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SDef
Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Flare Blitz
- ExtremeSpeed
- Morning Sun
- Will-O-Wisp / Toxic
Will-O-Wisp lets you stay in on stuff like Rhyperior and Swampert, burn it, and wall it for the rest of the game. Toxic lets you catch bulky Waters on the switch.
Just for reference, here's some fun calcs:
Adamant Scarf Heracross Close Combat: 30.5% - 36%
Adamant Scarf Heracross Stone Edge: 33.9% - 40.2%
Jolly Scarf Darmanitan Earthquake: 36.6% - 43.3%
So yeah you're walling all these fuckers unless Darmanitan predicts correctly and gets two near max damage rolls in a row as you switch into SR. Keep in mind those calcs are for Adamant when everyone actually runs Jolly, so in practice, you're walling the shit out of it. You're also tanking hits like a champ from shit like Weavile, Victini, and Escavalier, which not many Pokemon can claim.
But again, Sand will fuck with Morning Sun too much to make it worth it atm.
Arcanine really ought not to be used on any team that is not hardcore stall. Also it should not be using any set that doesn't invest heavily in defense and HP, you rarely want to make it specially defensive because it doesn't have the special defense to back it up and it also cannot abuse its resistance to tank special moves well at all.
My main argument for using Arcanine is that it is insanely defensive, as well as offensive for a tank. It also has a great surprise element if its being used defensively so it can status something probably nine out of ten times it comes into play (barring misses). I have burned countless Rhyperior, Kingdra and various bulky waters. Obviously though if sandstorm is common (as well as hazard stacking) and both cut deeply into Arcanine's bulk, there is a question as to why I would use it. After all, if its not actually very bulky in some playing conditions and the reason I said you should use it is because it is bulky-then there really is no reason to use it. Hope you followed my logic there ^_^
Well bzzzzzzzzt, you're dead wrong because of this wonderful thing called stall teams! Not only do they have reliable spinners, they should have reliable Wishers too (likely in the form of Umbreon who is basically a lesser Chansey imo). Arcanine thus still has plenty of bulk when facing sand teams. Yet even this is arguably irrelevant (watch me argue now!!!)
Arcanine should always take a backseat against sand teams. If sand was more common I could understand why Arcanine would be a lesser used poke but sand isn't even too common. The reason I think why its so damn high on the 1337 ladder is because I keep on playing this dude (won't name names) who insists on using a single sand team to play the ladder with. You should know who I am talking about anyways if you ladder when I do. My team with Arcanine beats him. A lot. Why though, isn't it pure stupidity to let a precious member of a stall team take a backseat in the heat of battle; after all everyone knows that each member of a stall team is integral and without just one it loses its capability to function.
Well actually, Arcanine CAN complete its functions while showing its fuzzy little face only a few times in battle in two ways, by acting as a fail safe wall and as an Intimidate defensive pivot.
For instance, as a fail safe, if your opponent sees your Arcanine on team preview, they would be a fool to try and set up a sweep with something you can wall (e.g. SD Cobalion). Thus as long as your Arcanine lives two things happen. One you are safe from a Cobalion sweep (Arcanine is not OHKOd from a +1 Stone Edge after SR) and two they probably won't even attempt a Cobalion sweep until it is too late.
As a pivot, I think you all know how it would work. You switch out from your Umbreon into your Arcanine as it uses Dynamic Punch and then to Claydol as it uses Stone Edge. Now your Claydol can pretty easily tank a Payback and set up Rocks while you can later go back to Arcanine to sap more of its attack and heal off or go to your real counter or something. Intimidate can make anything a fine defensive pivot.
If you didn't bother to read my whole post then please don't bother to respond to the whole thing, only respond to the part you read if you want.
My main argument for using Arcanine is that it is insanely defensive, as well as offensive for a tank. It also has a great surprise element if its being used defensively so it can status something probably nine out of ten times it comes into play (barring misses). I have burned countless Rhyperior, Kingdra and various bulky waters. Obviously though if sandstorm is common (as well as hazard stacking) and both cut deeply into Arcanine's bulk, there is a question as to why I would use it. After all, if its not actually very bulky in some playing conditions and the reason I said you should use it is because it is bulky-then there really is no reason to use it. Hope you followed my logic there ^_^
Well bzzzzzzzzt, you're dead wrong because of this wonderful thing called stall teams! Not only do they have reliable spinners, they should have reliable Wishers too (likely in the form of Umbreon who is basically a lesser Chansey imo). Arcanine thus still has plenty of bulk when facing sand teams. Yet even this is arguably irrelevant (watch me argue now!!!)
Arcanine should always take a backseat against sand teams. If sand was more common I could understand why Arcanine would be a lesser used poke but sand isn't even too common. The reason I think why its so damn high on the 1337 ladder is because I keep on playing this dude (won't name names) who insists on using a single sand team to play the ladder with. You should know who I am talking about anyways if you ladder when I do. My team with Arcanine beats him. A lot. Why though, isn't it pure stupidity to let a precious member of a stall team take a backseat in the heat of battle; after all everyone knows that each member of a stall team is integral and without just one it loses its capability to function.
Well actually, Arcanine CAN complete its functions while showing its fuzzy little face only a few times in battle in two ways, by acting as a fail safe wall and as an Intimidate defensive pivot.
For instance, as a fail safe, if your opponent sees your Arcanine on team preview, they would be a fool to try and set up a sweep with something you can wall (e.g. SD Cobalion). Thus as long as your Arcanine lives two things happen. One you are safe from a Cobalion sweep (Arcanine is not OHKOd from a +1 Stone Edge after SR) and two they probably won't even attempt a Cobalion sweep until it is too late.
As a pivot, I think you all know how it would work. You switch out from your Umbreon into your Arcanine as it uses Dynamic Punch and then to Claydol as it uses Stone Edge. Now your Claydol can pretty easily tank a Payback and set up Rocks while you can later go back to Arcanine to sap more of its attack and heal off or go to your real counter or something. Intimidate can make anything a fine defensive pivot.
If you didn't bother to read my whole post then please don't bother to respond to the whole thing, only respond to the part you read if you want.
I really don't like Arcanine in general. It can be offensive and defensive sure, but is that really a good thing? It's main attacks are either non-STAB, unboosted, and off of 257 Attack (assuming that Arcanine is only running defensive EVs) or recoil-causing or defense dropping, none of which are great for defensive Arcanine. Arcanine is also weak to all three hazards and weather in a tier with numerous Ghost Pokemon.
It's 90/80/80 Defenses make Swampert look like a king, and it's recovery is only semi-reliable because of Sand gaining stock in the metagame. Sure, Intimidate is nice, but there are better Intimidate users like a certain quilled fish that people need to use more.
Even if it runs mixed EVs, it's still balancing between a somewhat strong attacker and a below-average defender. It's zero immunities and few resistances don't do it much either. It can work to an extent in this metagame, but it should really stick to attacking in my opinion. Even then it's outclassed though...
It's 90/80/80 Defenses make Swampert look like a king, and it's recovery is only semi-reliable because of Sand gaining stock in the metagame. Sure, Intimidate is nice, but there are better Intimidate users like a certain quilled fish that people need to use more.
Even if it runs mixed EVs, it's still balancing between a somewhat strong attacker and a below-average defender. It's zero immunities and few resistances don't do it much either. It can work to an extent in this metagame, but it should really stick to attacking in my opinion. Even then it's outclassed though...
durant is amazing in uu, holy hell
I love all the folks who see durant in preview and still stubbornly lead with deo-d, thanks for the free hone claws suckers
I love all the folks who see durant in preview and still stubbornly lead with deo-d, thanks for the free hone claws suckers
I don't know at what ranking you stand, but I never see any Durant not to mention no decent player will lead of with Deoxys-D, apart from the obvious suicide you let your opponent set up on you...
Arcanine at its best is Adamant with Life Orb, the other sets work in certain situations and just are inferior. You should be Using offensive Arcanine with a Fast spiker like Deoxys-D, whom once gets down some hazards down you can easily clean teams lategame and midgame, or even punch holes for fellow sweepers such as Weaville and Yanmega to sweep. The mixed set is horrible, you lose the fire power Arcanine has just to hurt Rhyperior and Swampert, Two pokemon who you should have other means to take them out early on...I personally don't attempt to sweep when Swampert is around anyways or at least in good health.
Too bad Hone Claws is a mediocre boosting move and anything Scarfed will still RK the very average Durant and it's bad defenses.
Well I am pretty sure a Scarfgon is unable to KO it without using a Fire move but yeah it is pretty easily revenge killed by a scarfer. Outside of scarfers though its not exactly easy to revenge seeing as it has huge Speed trolling Cobalion by one point but getting trolled by Froslass by one point. Iron Head flinch rate comes in handy when dealing with Cobalion too since a boosted Iron Head scores around 45% from experience. Steel means Durant takes Fake Out and Sucker Punch nicely if for some reason it can't set up on the Sucker Punch.
I don't know what you are talking about Hone Claws being a bad boosting move; the accuracy boost makes Durant so much more reliable while the power boost gives it the power to maul down anything that doesn't resist its STAB or have obscene bulk (read: Eviolite pokes). Even they are at the risk of being 2HKOd after a simple boost and Hustle with Life Orb. A speed boost would be nice but no point in dreaming.
Bad defenses are only a problem when trying to set up, its easiest to take advantage of forced switches to set up. I find the very common Roserade perfect fodder to set up on, especially if your opponent thinks he is being slick with Sleep Powder because I block it with sub.
Hone Claws is not even an issue. Quite the opposite. It is even better than SD, because alongside with Hustle, a Hone Claws gives you a 2,25 attack boost, while also fixing your accuracy problem. The issues of Durant are the inability to get past steels and its non existent special defense.
1. Not sure if I'm playing well, or if Bisharp's a little too powerful for UU.
It seems like every time I try to prove Roserade to be too good for UU, its partner Bisharp keeps hogging the spotlight. At least, that's what it's been like for the past 10 matches or so. After a Swords Dance and good prediction with Sucker Punches, I've had multiple instances in both UU and Ubers where Bisharp is extremely fierce - to the point of (usually only almost) sweeping entire teams.
2. Toxic Spikes doesn't irritate UU's metagame as much as I thought. I still think Roserade's too good for UU, since unlike Froslass and Deoxys-D, Roserade is not Taunt bait.
3. My thoughts on Durant - I love Bug Pokemon, and Durant is no exception. I might start using him for once just to try him out. Right now my focus is to get Roserade in BorderLine where it belongs.
4. At people who don't like Spikers - have any of you considered Whimsicott or Sableye being included in your teams? (I have: Whimsicott is amazing. As for Sableye, I've tried using him and he is very bleh in comparison to virtually every other Prankster I know of. Faster Pranksters will make Sableye weep with despair, and that's not even going into the general scope of "Everything in UU can piss on Sableye's CornFlakes one way or another")
It seems like every time I try to prove Roserade to be too good for UU, its partner Bisharp keeps hogging the spotlight. At least, that's what it's been like for the past 10 matches or so. After a Swords Dance and good prediction with Sucker Punches, I've had multiple instances in both UU and Ubers where Bisharp is extremely fierce - to the point of (usually only almost) sweeping entire teams.
2. Toxic Spikes doesn't irritate UU's metagame as much as I thought. I still think Roserade's too good for UU, since unlike Froslass and Deoxys-D, Roserade is not Taunt bait.
3. My thoughts on Durant - I love Bug Pokemon, and Durant is no exception. I might start using him for once just to try him out. Right now my focus is to get Roserade in BorderLine where it belongs.
4. At people who don't like Spikers - have any of you considered Whimsicott or Sableye being included in your teams? (I have: Whimsicott is amazing. As for Sableye, I've tried using him and he is very bleh in comparison to virtually every other Prankster I know of. Faster Pranksters will make Sableye weep with despair, and that's not even going into the general scope of "Everything in UU can piss on Sableye's CornFlakes one way or another")
The problem with Durant is its lack of coverage. It can easily be walled by other Steel types, most notably Registeel and Bisharp. Durant also has very laughable Special Defense and HP, so most special attackers have no problem taking out Durant, assuming it hasn't set up too many Hone Claws yet.
One Pokemon that I seem to be having a lot of trouble with is Suicune. The RestTalk Calm Mind set is the main issue, as it has incredibly bulky defenses on both sides, and is immune to statuses, or at least until it uses up all of Rest's PP. I have tried countering it with Leech Seed Shaymin, but it can just simply switch to get rid of the Leech Seed. Still seems to be a bit too OP in my opinion, having so few viable counters.
One Pokemon that I seem to be having a lot of trouble with is Suicune. The RestTalk Calm Mind set is the main issue, as it has incredibly bulky defenses on both sides, and is immune to statuses, or at least until it uses up all of Rest's PP. I have tried countering it with Leech Seed Shaymin, but it can just simply switch to get rid of the Leech Seed. Still seems to be a bit too OP in my opinion, having so few viable counters.
252 Atk Jolly Life Orb +0 Hustle Durant X-Scissor does 48.8-57.5% to 252/252+ Bisharp, which is a potential 2HKO and an assured one with one layer of Spikes even if Bisharp is holding leftovers. Furthermore, assuming there are no hazards on the field, Bisharp needs to run 252/84+ to avoid the chance of being OHKO'd by +1 Durant with the same spread, at which point Stone Edge (its most powerful move to counter it other than a gimmicky HP Fire) with 172 Atk EV's and a neutral nature is doing 35.0-41.6%, a 3HKO. Durant does have problems, but the bug neutrality Bisharp's dark typing gives it means it isn't really one of them. I suppose Bisharp could run Thunder Wave (and I'll admit I don't know how common that is), but then you have to hope Durant Hone Claw's turn one and hope it isn't running a set with substitute, and, even if that all goes your way, you're still basically sacrificing your Bisharp to stop Durant as, at this point, you have at most a third of your health left if you run fully physically defensive with leftovers.
Edit: @Hilarious That's my point. Bisharp might look like a decent stop do Durant on paper due to its steel typing and decent defenses, but its dark typing means even someone running a ridiculously over-defensive Bisharp isn't going to be able to stop Durant very reliably with it.
You know I honestly have to say I think this whole thing is irrelevant. Nobody with an IQ above 60 runs a defensive Bisharp or Thunder Wave Bisharp. You are going way to conservative if you assume Bisharp are going to be defensive.
As for Suicune I think its time is going away for a while. Far too slow paced to set up in a offensive team on one hand and on the other hand it is a bit outclassed as a bulky water because it does not have reliable recovery. I am not saying by any means Suicune is bad or unusable, I just think the metagame isn't very kind to it at the moment. When I used Suicune for a while, this is what happened too often; it switches in to something its supposed to counter but will instead eat a U-turn from Darmantian, Flygon or Victini after eating lots of hazard damage only for your opponent to switch to Roserade to set up more hazards and shit on you even more. Rinse repeat until you die. There are some pokes it can pretty easily switch into like Rhyperior but again Suicune tens to get worn down and then torn down pretty easily, especially with Rest making it dead weight or at least unreliable for several turns.
hilarious is right, don't use Suicune.
CM Slowbro is kind of better. It gets reliable recovery, ability to go "mixed" with Psyshock, resistance to Fighting-type moves, and better Physical bulk. It's not setup bait with Rest unlike Suicune, and can hit harder too. Suicune is generally not that great in this metagame. It also has hardcore 4-moveslot syndrome.
Suicune has a few advantages, but it's generally not that great in this metagame. Honestly, it hasn't been good since before the Hippowdon metagame as far as I'm concerned but that's a different story. Milotic and Blastoise are better Bulky Waters and Slowbro is a better Calm Minder in my opinion.
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Also, I want to bring up a new Pokemon that's really gaining popularity in this metagame, Choice Band Flygon. Flygon is still pretty fast, even with Adamant. It outspeeds non-Scarf Rotom-A and slower, and can pack a serious punch. It's the perfect momentum grabber in a hazard dominated metagame because it resists or is immune to every hazard. It really appreciates Stealth Rock or a layer of Spikes so it can beat up Bulky Waters.
EDIT: cat can't do math suicune does have better physical bulk.
CM Slowbro is kind of better. It gets reliable recovery, ability to go "mixed" with Psyshock, resistance to Fighting-type moves, and better Physical bulk. It's not setup bait with Rest unlike Suicune, and can hit harder too. Suicune is generally not that great in this metagame. It also has hardcore 4-moveslot syndrome.
Suicune has a few advantages, but it's generally not that great in this metagame. Honestly, it hasn't been good since before the Hippowdon metagame as far as I'm concerned but that's a different story. Milotic and Blastoise are better Bulky Waters and Slowbro is a better Calm Minder in my opinion.
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Also, I want to bring up a new Pokemon that's really gaining popularity in this metagame, Choice Band Flygon. Flygon is still pretty fast, even with Adamant. It outspeeds non-Scarf Rotom-A and slower, and can pack a serious punch. It's the perfect momentum grabber in a hazard dominated metagame because it resists or is immune to every hazard. It really appreciates Stealth Rock or a layer of Spikes so it can beat up Bulky Waters.
EDIT: cat can't do math suicune does have better physical bulk.
Sry for nitpicking but Suicune has a little better physical bulk. Not getting into any arguement or whatever, just stating facts.
Btw has anyone of you guys tried out the Drifblim set that was uploaded today? I am talking about this set.
It seems amazing in theory, preventing any rapid spinning attempt, while also killing and crippling many pokes with Acrobat, WoW and D-Bond. It seems to best fit in offensive teams, since they appreciate keeping their hazards intact and they don't mind pokes tha die easily, unlike balanced and stall teams.
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