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General Metagame Discussion

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Isn't this supposed to be a discussion metagame threat ? so let me continue.(haunter)

You are probably right for LO mixed salamance but this set isn't used cause other things does the same but a way better.

Concerning Terrakion, it's more complicated but what ever. i'll stop, my poor english doesn't allow me to big well argumented posts.
 
Nelson-X said:
First don't mess up between counter and Revenge kill, it's absolutely not the same thing, every pokemon can be revenge killed.
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I'd like to see you revenge kill something like Arceus above ~30% HP.

Nelson-X said:
If you start by saying that you have to rely on prediction to see his set, why did we ban deoxys then ? With a bit of prediction, you could check his set and counter him well. No it was ban cuz it didn't have any sure counter like landorus doesn't have any also.
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Because even WITH prediction you can't stop Deoxys-S. Nomatter what you do, it IS getting a screen up, probobly both, if you lead with something without Taunt. Deo-S is also virtually guarenteed hazards, and preventing you setting them up is guarenteed. LO cleaners were also pretty tricky to stop, due to outspeeding everything.

Same with most Ubers, they're uber because even WITH prediction you can't stop them, or they require stupid amounts of it/punish mispredictions FAR too hard. It dosen't matter if you predict an Exacadrill earthquake, switching in Skarmory isn't going to stop it, at best you'll WW it out after taking a Rock Slide, at worst you'll get flinched and be crippled enough that you'll be KO'ed next time you come in... especially if you bring in something you can't Roost on.

Nelson-X said:
To be counters , a pokemon needs to avoid a 2HKO when switching on it which isn't the case for skarmory and latias which are both 2HKO, depending on the version.
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It dosen't change the fact that the SET has counters. Also, Azumarill can switch in on pretty much anything Landous does [Especially as Landorus has to setup to be much of a danger], withstand it, and OHKO with Aqua Jet. Azumarill is actually a counter.

Nelson-X said:
Prediction isn't an excuse to counter a poke, cuz its same as for revenge killing, every poke can be countered with a bit of prediction, either thundurus or garchomp. No to be Uber, a pokemon must have any 100% sure counter which is the case of landorus.
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Explained above. Also, stop using the Gen 4 defnition of an Uber. You can't counter 300+ pokemon, and even more sets, with a team of 6, checks are now what we rely upon.

Nelson-X said:
I'm speaking in theory. Any OU what ever the set they are running are supposed to have at least one sure counter.
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This isn't true now, and wasn't true in Gen 4 either.
- Infernape. Especially when Latias was banned. Starmie comes close, but what about Grass Knot, or even some crazy SD Thunderpunch?

- Lucario can hit practically everything SE, hard.

- Starmie, few things can weather it's attacks, and Trick kills Blissey/Chansey

- Gengar has so many sets...

- In Gen 5, Dragonite [Volcarona and Terrakion are both absolutly stopped by status. And Scizor can switch in on Terrakion as it sets up. And Azumarill can switch in and OHKO Volc]

- Voltturn has no hard counter
 
This is a discussion thread about the current OU meta. You're free to post your thoughts but, please, make sure that you have some actual experience before claiming that something is broken.

Actually I can't think of a better mixed wallbreaker than Salamence, given its 135\110\100 attack statas and diverse movepool, but of course there are other threats that can go mixed or just run unconventional sets to get surprise kills.
 
furthermore, landorus does have a hard counter and if you're too much of a bitch to use it, sucks.

Jolly Landorus +2 Earthquake in Sand vs 252 / 252 Slowbro: 70.81 - 83.24% (not a KO after Rocks)

so your "no counters" argument holds water like a sieve. Can we please shut up about landorus now?

EDIT: razza, the set in analysis still holds true as far as i know. idk the ev's but naive moxie outrage / fire blast / eq / draco meteor
 
Stop saying things i haven't said also. Yeah i'm said that in theory , landorus doesn't have any reliable counters at sure and can make some easily surprised kills before guessing which set it is. It stops here, and yeah i have enough experience to say that again.

Oh and Stop pointing out my mistakes when you know i've said english wasn't my mother young, it's really low, thank you.
 
Oh and Stop pointing out my mistakes when you know i've said english wasn't my mother young, it's really low, thank you.
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not sure if this is directed at me, but I didn't mean to point out a grammar error there, just wanted to avoid confusion on the topic of this discussion (which isn't supposed to be just about threats).
 
How is it going to surprise kill Slowbro? It can run hp grass with expert belt, but I don't think that's a viable option.
 
just to end this discussion Nelson X please go to This Thread and use the damage counters there. Pick the set and you will find counters for any Landorus set. Slowbro, Virizion, Azumarril and latias have all been mentioned as counters so your early post "Geez fuck this Landorus has no counters" is just incorrect. It really does sound like your unhappy that your current team matches up badly against Landorus or w/e and now your trying to save face when everyone here has listed perfectly capable Landorus counters which your flat out ignoring. Everyone else deals with Landorus just fine with the counters everyone has listed ergo, your "experience" matters little when several experienced players (ie not me) posted methods of dealing with it. Man up, use one of the counters listed and move on. This subject has run its course and there is actually nothing much to be gained from this
 
Pwnemon said:
LO 252+ Landorus HP Grass vs 252/0 Slowbro: 61.42%-72.58%

nope.avi
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I was thinking more along the lines that the opponent hits you with hp grass on the switch. Even then, hp grass doesn't do a dang thing for landorus otherwise. Not as much as hp ice does anyway.
 
Because the most popular water types laugh at grass knot's base power. You're literally only using it for gastrodon and Slowbro. Since gastrodon will never switch into landorus, it's pretty useless.
 
If you mention landorus counters, where's my ninja bronzong at? HP ice is viable on him and probably OHKO's, even if they run HP fire it may not 2hitko.
Smack down is somewhat problematic, but if you have smack down then a large quantity of other shit no longer cares about you. I'd also like to give a shoutout to bulky shaymin and tangrowth-don't care about much, tangrowth has regenerator for scarf sets, but then HP ice screws it up.
 
Not supporting the ban of Landorus, just posting to say that LO Landorus with EQ, Smack Down, HP Ice and U-turn has zero counters in OU.

Slowbro is 2hkoed with EQ after SR, Skarmory, Rotom-W and Zong are 2hkoed by Smack Down + EQ, Ferrothorn is 2hkoed with EQ after SR, Tangrowth is 2hkoed with HP Ice without SR, 252 HP Latias is 2hkoed with Smack Down + EQ and takes 58.79 - 69.23% from U-turn, Physically Defensive Gyara is 2hkoed with Smack Down and EQ after SR and SS damage, and Hippo has a small chance of getting 2hkoed by HP Ice or a big chance with Spikes alone or Spikes + SR.

Another great thing about Landorus is that he pairs very well with Wish Jirachi, which means that Landorus can stick around for quite a bit, especially since it can switch into Jirachi's Ground and Fighting weaknesses which he resists.

So my point, people use LO/Expert Belt Smack Down Landorus more, he is awesome!
 
Virizion is probably one of the best offensive checks to Landorus to exist, just saying. Yes, you can get U-turned on (which doesn't do that much, although losing momentum sucks), but it doesn't take much from everything else. It resists both Earthquake and Stone Edge, while its Special Defense just laughs at unboosted Hidden Power Ice. In return, it outspeeds and can Giga Drain back its health or just straight up OHKO Landorus with its own Hidden Power Ice.

Also, if Tangrowth's Special Defense is too poor to take HP Ice for some people, try out bulky Shaymin. Yes, it's not as physically bulky, but it's damn well good enough in most cases and also has the Special Defense to just laugh at Hidden Power Ice. You can Seed Flare those damn Rotom-Ws, as well as use Hidden Power Fire on Scizor. Seriously, if you're looking for something to dismantle Volt-turn, you're looking at one of the best tools in the box right here.
 
shrang said:
Virizion is probably one of the best offensive checks to Landorus to exist, just saying. Yes, you can get U-turned on (which doesn't do that much, although losing momentum sucks), but it doesn't take much from everything else. It resists both Earthquake and Stone Edge, while its Special Defense just laughs at unboosted Hidden Power Ice. In return, it outspeeds and can Giga Drain back its health or just straight up OHKO Landorus with its own Hidden Power Ice.
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I forgot about him. So LO Landorus with Smack Down has 1 counter in OU i guess...
 
You also forgot about CM virizion, who can take all his shit and fling an HP ice his way while he outspeeds. You forgot Mamo too. His ice shard is an OHKO. He's also revenged by a lot of fast stuff, and LO + Uturn residual damage is a bitch

What you /meant/ to say was "lando gets past many of his usual counters with Smack Down and LO"
 
I guess Virizion is a counter in that it can survive a hit and take out Landorus with HP Ice. However, EQ does 59-70% in the sandstorm, so if Virizion takes a U-turn beforehand it's fucked.

Shaymin that shrang suggested is a good counter to that Landorus if it goes max defensive bulk (252 HP / 252+ Def), but U-turn spamming will still be annoying.
 
Pwnemon said:
You also forgot about CM virizion, who can take all his shit and fling an HP ice his way while he outspeeds. You forgot Mamo too. His ice shard is an OHKO. He's also revenged by a lot of fast stuff, and LO + Uturn residual damage is a bitch

What you /meant/ to say was "lando gets past many of his usual counters with Smack Down and LO"
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In my post above yours i mentioned Virizion as his sole counter in OU.

Mamo is not a counter. It is OHKOed after SR from EQ which does 88.95 - 105.24%.

Yeah revenge killers and LO damage are a problem for many offensive pokes, but Landorus still is quite hard to take down since even at 20-30% he can be very useful as he outspeeds a ton of stuff, is immune to grounded hazards and neutral to SR, is immune to SS damage and has good physical bulk to take priority hits (obviously at 25% you can't take a BP but you can take a Mach Punch and if you are at 65% and more you can even tank a CB BP from Scizor which does 55.48 - 65.2% and deal back 78.13 - 92.12% with EQ which is a OHKO after 2 SR rounds).

So still only 1 counter in OU.

EDIT: Now that i think about it, Pocket is right. Virizion is 2hkoed from U-Turn and EQ, so after a single U-turn, Virizion will be unable to switch in, so we are looking to a check not a counter. So i gladly announce that he still has ZERO counters in OU.

Also Shrang, Shaymin seems like a solid option against Volt-Teams, may be worth to give it a try.
 
Scarfwynaut said:
What about Gyarados? Rest-talk takes at max 40% from earthquake after a smack down (in the sand) and waterfall is always a 2HKO.
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At -1, Smack Down does 30.45 - 36.04% and EQ does 38.07 - 44.92%. After SR and SS damage this is a 2hko almost always (38.07 + 30.45 + 25 + 6,25 = 99.77%).
 
We all know that Landorus isn't broken and that was kind of a waste of a page in this thread so I didn't bother posting then but something was posted and its bothering me so here I am.

alexwolf said:
and deal back 78.13 - 92.12% with EQ which is a OHKO after 2 SR rounds).

So still only 1 counter in OU.

EDIT: Now that i think about it, Pocket is right. Virizion is 2hkoed from U-Turn and EQ, so after a single U-turn, Virizion will be unable to switch in, so we are looking to a check not a counter. So i gladly announce that he still has ZERO counters in OU.
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First of all, when looking at checks/counters, it's sort of unreasonable to assume they switch into hazards more than once. Hazards are always good to account for, but there's a limit. After 6 switch-ins to Spikes, Specially Defensive Jirachi no longer counters Specs Tornadus. That's a little absurd, because Jirachi could just Wish off the Spikes damage, but you get my point. When we start using multiple switch-ins to hazards, counters no longer even exist.

Okay, but onto my main point. Virizion still counters that set. The ability to U-Turn away and weaken it does not make any less of a counter. By that logic, Bulky DD Dos under Rain does not counter Scizor, because Scizor can keep U-Turning away until Gyarados is at extremely low health. If the best that a Pokemon can do is run away and do mediocre damage in the process, then it's countered. Virizion CAN switch in safely, because it will either kill Landorus or make it get the fuck out of there (basically the definition of a counter, switching in and doing that). So yeah, Landorus is countered.
 
SlimMan said:
We all know that Landorus isn't broken and that was kind of a waste of a page in this thread so I didn't bother posting then but something was posted and its bothering me so here I am.


First of all, when looking at checks/counters, it's sort of unreasonable to assume they switch into hazards more than once. Hazards are always good to account for, but there's a limit. After 6 switch-ins to Spikes, Specially Defensive Jirachi no longer counters Specs Tornadus. That's a little absurd, because Jirachi could just Wish off the Spikes damage, but you get my point. When we start using multiple switch-ins to hazards, counters no longer even exist.
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For most examples, this is true. However, in CB scizor's case, assuming that it has switched into rocks more than once isn't such a leap of faith, as it lacks recovery and also tends to switch in and out often.

He's not broken though, he's just hard to deal with sometimes. I:e not even close to bannable
 
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