I haven't even talked about Blissey, since she gets pretty much destroyed after Tornadus' superpower, lol.
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BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Tobes
- Start date
I was thinking of double sand rush - sandslash and stoutland. Stoutland acts as a choice revenge killer, sandslash as an offensive boosting rapid spinner.
I may even run it with double sand - hippo and ttar...and see how that works.
I may even run it with double sand - hippo and ttar...and see how that works.
I've run into teams using double sand rush this week and the weak link is most definitely Sandslash, unless it can score a OHKO it tends to be too frail to survive and taking the turn to set up Swords Dance just gives your opponent time to get their counter in place.
I could see it being difficult to use if not played properly...unfortunately it can't do choice band as well as Stoutland can...so it's pretty reliant on getting in a swords dance boost in order to have a chance at sweeping. It would really only be good as a late game cleaner, but in that function it could work admirably.
You could also go the risky route and throw Dragonite out there. Leaves Haxorus with really no other choice but to use Outrage, lest it risks being on the receiving end of Dnite's own Outrage/Dragon Claw. Remember, bulky Waters now have to be able to handle Superpower now as well.
Most Bulky Waters can handle Superpower much easier than Outrage. The only one I can think of who can't is Empoleon, and he's almost nonexistent in OU now. Superpower also decreases in power every turn, letting your opponent recover HP or threaten a Burn with Scald. Really, Superpower is pretty much an afterthought for Haxorus' old checks, with the obvious exception of Ferrothorn.
As for DNite, I can't imagine many people who would be willing to sacrifice one of the most fearsome pokemon in the game when it's easy enough to bait Outrage with other things.
Celebi's great bait for Outrage.
As for Haxorus having no counters, that is true but it is extremely easy to revenge kill kill any Dragon or Mamoswine.
As for Haxorus having no counters, that is true but it is extremely easy to revenge kill kill any Dragon or Mamoswine.
Excuse me?
LOTS of teams don't have a sleep absorber, which are pretty much limited to Sleep Talk Tornadus-T and um, Sleep talk Heracross? Quite personally, I consider a sleep absorber a pokemon that can safely take the sleep, activate sleep clause, and not be utterly crippled by the sleep. To date (I might be missing something but) this means anything with sleep talk or Hydration (kinda) are classified sleep absorbers, and I know that quite a few teams lack these.
Spore being a "free kill" is not technically correct, but in practise, it does often give you a 6-5 advantage just because chances are its putting something to sleep whether you like it or not (and having Celebi or whatever does not auto mean that its not putting something to sleep as you need to keep it alive throughout the match, and switch it in correctly yadda yadda). Spore really is the closest thing we have to a free kill attack bar OHKOs moves lol.
It's obvious that you haven't been playing this meta at all. Xatu, Gliscor, and Tornadus are joke switchins to Breloom (Xatu, Gliscor die to Bullet Seed, and Tornadus dies to a combination of Bullet Seed+Mach Punch, two Low Sweeps, etc) and after you've disposed of them, you can easily toss a Spore into the mix to essentially net a free kill. A slept poke is set up bait for your sweeper and in this meta, pokes don't have the time to sit around for 2 turns to wake up. Spore has basically been a free kill since Gen V sleep mechanics came around; I don't see why you're laughing.
Probably not as your both probably going to switch out at the end of the turn so Spore wouldn't be bad at all for CB
Sandrush sandslash is frail? But doesn't it have decent physical defenses at least?
I don't know. He seems like a really appealing rapid spinner. In the same way that jellicient and gengar did not want to switch into excadrill, they will not want to switch into a +2 sandslash.
I don't know. He seems like a really appealing rapid spinner. In the same way that jellicient and gengar did not want to switch into excadrill, they will not want to switch into a +2 sandslash.
I've swept entire Teams with him, also running an adamant nature really helps. Jolly isn't worth it imo. I'm probably wrong somewhere and someone will quote some scarf pokemon...
I used
Swords Dance
Stone Edge
Shadow Claw
Earthquake
It's big advantage over Excadrill, is that he's much harder to revenge kill, and he can get past alot of the ones Exca had problems with. And because he's not weak to earthquake, I could swords dance to +4 on Gliscor and then tear into him, and shadow claw was extremely nice for Mr. Pringles.
Jellicent takes less then 30% from a unboosted Sandslash, so you either SD and fail to OHKO (hell, without SR, you have a 9% to 2HKO) or use EQ and do laughable damage.
This is assuming you carry lefties, however, so if you are holding LO, you'll be able to have a guaranteed...4HKO before a SD, meaning Jellicent can counter you quite well.
So no, you won't scare out Jellicent.
Btw, just for reference:
Shadow Claw: 70 x 2(SE hit) = 140 BP
EQ : 100 x 1.5(STAB) = 150 BP
So EQ would still do more, lol.
Edit: It seems my calculator glitched then. My bad.
This is assuming you carry lefties, however, so if you are holding LO, you'll be able to have a guaranteed...4HKO before a SD, meaning Jellicent can counter you quite well.
So no, you won't scare out Jellicent.
Btw, just for reference:
Shadow Claw: 70 x 2(SE hit) = 140 BP
EQ : 100 x 1.5(STAB) = 150 BP
So EQ would still do more, lol.
Edit: It seems my calculator glitched then. My bad.
Why would you want to hit Jellicent with shadow claw when EQ does more damage (140 vs 150 after stab)? Shadow claw only hits harder Latios and Gengar. And even then I'd probably prefer x-scissor to ohko Celebi (since +2 stone edge already obliterates Gengar).
Edit@above: unless my damage calc is wrong, +2 adamant LO Sandslash can do 89,11% - 104,95% with EQ to standard Jelli.
Edit@above: unless my damage calc is wrong, +2 adamant LO Sandslash can do 89,11% - 104,95% with EQ to standard Jelli.
The point is not to scare out Jellicent but to be able to threaten her with a ko in order to be able to spin. And Sandslash in sand can scare out quite a few pokes, such as Heatran, Thunurus-T, Tyranitar, Terrakion and more.
For example +2 Earth Plate Adamant Sandslash does 82.87 - 97.76% with EQ to 252 / 216+ Jellicent, so after SR and sandstorm damage, Jellicent has a 68.75% to get ohkoed if it was at full health.
And use Earth Plate on Sandslash guys it is good, especially on Rapid Spin Sandslash. You gain the power to ohko all OU spin-blockers, while not jeopardizing your bulk. If you run SD + 3 attacks though, you are better off with LO, as Sandslash needs all the power he can get to sweep.
My calcs were wrong, so ok, you have your point there.
However, Scarf pokemon that reach 459 can outpace it. What's more, if you mistake the pokemon you're "scaring out" for any other set then Scarf and try to SD on, for example Terrakion, you'll be the one forced out. Sure, it's not something that will happen over 80% of the time, but just food for thought that set up fodder is not always set up fodder. And another testament to how slow Sandslash is. Scarf Lucario and faster can outpace (disclaimer: this isn't saying that Scarf Lucario is common, just to show what can outpace).
It can't rip most offense teams apart, as Air Balloon pokemon can check it. And no, please don't use the "it may flinch" argument, as I'll use the "it can miss" argument and we'll all be sour. Air Balloon Lucario is immune to flinching and can KO with Close Combat followed by Extremespeed (87% minimum). Or could wait till you're around 53% and counter sweep you instead (SD, then Espeed, then gg). Or you could run scarf pokemon.
Why am I showing all of this? Because even if you do KO the spinblocker, the scarfer or Air Balloon pokemon will happily KO you or do a chunk against the switch in. But wait, why does a offensive Sand team need a spinner that badly? There are usually no SR weak pokemon, it's OFFENSIVE, which means give the opponent as liittle oppenings as possible, so...uh...yeah, I don't know why you should use Sandslash as a spinner, as Starmie can KO the spinblockers as well, while Starmie can at least somewhat handle Forretress, beat Skarm easy...which Sandslash can't. And unlike Starmie, you can only use scarfers in all weathers to check it, not like Sandslash who needs Sand in order to outpace anything (while still being outpaced). Not to mention you'll put even more pressure on the water resist, unless you like sacking something every time that Politoed comes in.
But that's just me, as I prefer weatherless offense. Maybe I can get a explanation as to why Sandslash should be a spinner?
Sandslash is a good spinner, because he can beat every spin-blocker in OU. He is also an ok sweeper as he has good speed and good attack after an SD, but needs the appropriate support to work good.
No one said that he is a fantastic poke or something, he is just an ok sweeper, an ok revenge killer (if running Joly) and a good spinner, and that's all. If, for example, your sand team needs badly Spin support, and wants a spinner to get past Jellicent, while not being Pursuit bait (Starmie), Sandslash is a good choice, that also provides you with an ok Terrakion check, as Sandslash can take Stone Edges and even an unboosted CC in a pinch and ohko back everything except Scarf Terra.
No one said that he is a fantastic poke or something, he is just an ok sweeper, an ok revenge killer (if running Joly) and a good spinner, and that's all. If, for example, your sand team needs badly Spin support, and wants a spinner to get past Jellicent, while not being Pursuit bait (Starmie), Sandslash is a good choice, that also provides you with an ok Terrakion check, as Sandslash can take Stone Edges and even an unboosted CC in a pinch and ohko back everything except Scarf Terra.
I am using Sandslash atm, and I can attest to his awesomeness. Ningildo, you say that Air Balloon Pokemon stop Sandslash so therefore it's easily beatable? Air Balloon Lucario, Heatran, and the like all stopped Excadrill, so therefore Excadrill was easily beatable? The thing is, unless you are specifically saving your Balloon Luke to deal with Sandslash, odds are you'll have sent it out earlier in the battle. And it is not hard to break a Pokemon's Balloon. Hell, Sandslash could just throw out a Stone Edge on the predicted switch (because you should've scouted their team and know what they have by the time Sandslash is sent out) to break the Balloon, and then OHKO the Lucario or Heatran or whatever.
Next, I'd like to ask, why the heck is everyone talking about an Adamant nature? It's funny, on Excadrill we used to question why anyone would ever use Jolly on it, and now we have the opposite situation. Jolly should always be used on Sandslash. The most notable reason is that Scarf Thundurus-T is everywhere, and I know that I love OHKOing him, then continuing with my sweep. With Adamant, he gets a secure revenge-kill on you. But there are other reasons for Jolly as well. Aw shit, I just let Volcarona get a Quiver Dance. Good thing my Sandslash can still stop it. Damn, this Scarf Moxie Mence is tearing me a new one with boosted Outrages. Luckily, I have my Sandslash to KO it and save the day (and it can't even switch out due to Outrage). That's all I'm gonna say about that. Jolly >>> Adamant.
Now to address Ningildo's issue with Scarfers. Let's look at all the common Scarfers that out-speed Sandslash: Terrakion, Latios. Big list. Starting with Latios. I've said this before, but you should pretty much know your opponent's team by the time Sandslash comes out. Some sweepers are meant to be played lategame, Sandslash is for late-lategame. It's typically the last Pokemon I send out, and the last Pokemon to BE out in a battle. But the point is, unless the Latios user is an absolute master of concealing his sets, you'll probably know it's a Scarf Latios that is facing your Sandslash. So ya know what? I think I'll switch my Tyranitar into it and roflPursuit it to death (If you have Sandslash, 90% chance you're using Tyranitar). Now my Sandslash can do its thing when it comes back in. Now for Scarf Terrakion. Sandslash deals with Scarf Terrakion rather simply. It tanks the Close Combat (~62%-~73%) and OHKOes back. Yeah. Scarfers don't bother a good Sandslash user too much.
Note: I've been talking about 3 Attacks Sandslash, not the Rapid Spin set. 3 Attacks is what I'm using atm, and I only used Rapid Spin briefly.
So yeah, Sandslash is much better than you give it credit for Ningildo. Also, final thoughts I'd like to throw out. Sandslash is an awesome Spinner, because like people said, it can OHKO every Spinblocker at +2. Alexwolf is right, Earth Plate (or Soft Sand!!!) is the best item for it, because it does have to be played earlier than the set I've been touting this whole post, so it will actually take damage throughout the match. On my favorite Sandslash set, use LO and X-Scissor. The other options aren't as good. You need the power and X-Scissor gives the best coverage. Period.
Next, I'd like to ask, why the heck is everyone talking about an Adamant nature? It's funny, on Excadrill we used to question why anyone would ever use Jolly on it, and now we have the opposite situation. Jolly should always be used on Sandslash. The most notable reason is that Scarf Thundurus-T is everywhere, and I know that I love OHKOing him, then continuing with my sweep. With Adamant, he gets a secure revenge-kill on you. But there are other reasons for Jolly as well. Aw shit, I just let Volcarona get a Quiver Dance. Good thing my Sandslash can still stop it. Damn, this Scarf Moxie Mence is tearing me a new one with boosted Outrages. Luckily, I have my Sandslash to KO it and save the day (and it can't even switch out due to Outrage). That's all I'm gonna say about that. Jolly >>> Adamant.
Now to address Ningildo's issue with Scarfers. Let's look at all the common Scarfers that out-speed Sandslash: Terrakion, Latios. Big list. Starting with Latios. I've said this before, but you should pretty much know your opponent's team by the time Sandslash comes out. Some sweepers are meant to be played lategame, Sandslash is for late-lategame. It's typically the last Pokemon I send out, and the last Pokemon to BE out in a battle. But the point is, unless the Latios user is an absolute master of concealing his sets, you'll probably know it's a Scarf Latios that is facing your Sandslash. So ya know what? I think I'll switch my Tyranitar into it and roflPursuit it to death (If you have Sandslash, 90% chance you're using Tyranitar). Now my Sandslash can do its thing when it comes back in. Now for Scarf Terrakion. Sandslash deals with Scarf Terrakion rather simply. It tanks the Close Combat (~62%-~73%) and OHKOes back. Yeah. Scarfers don't bother a good Sandslash user too much.
Note: I've been talking about 3 Attacks Sandslash, not the Rapid Spin set. 3 Attacks is what I'm using atm, and I only used Rapid Spin briefly.
So yeah, Sandslash is much better than you give it credit for Ningildo. Also, final thoughts I'd like to throw out. Sandslash is an awesome Spinner, because like people said, it can OHKO every Spinblocker at +2. Alexwolf is right, Earth Plate (or Soft Sand!!!) is the best item for it, because it does have to be played earlier than the set I've been touting this whole post, so it will actually take damage throughout the match. On my favorite Sandslash set, use LO and X-Scissor. The other options aren't as good. You need the power and X-Scissor gives the best coverage. Period.
Talking about Liepard, I remember a gimmick team using it with priority Assist in DW.
The team was rubbish, but curious. It was around using Liepard and its preevo using Assist with Prankster and the rest of the team having Roar/Whirlwind and Dragon Tail. Spikes and Stealth Rock are necessary and Toxic Spikes advisable. Haxorus with Roar advisable for to try to break Baton Pass with Espeon. Dragon Tail cannot be recalled by Assist, use it if the pokemon can learn both like Mew and Haxorus.
Tornadus-T is impossible to defeat unless you have a Pokemon with Toxic.
This team won't work unless the opponent is very bad player or the user has a lot of luck. I tell it as a curiosity.
The team was rubbish, but curious. It was around using Liepard and its preevo using Assist with Prankster and the rest of the team having Roar/Whirlwind and Dragon Tail. Spikes and Stealth Rock are necessary and Toxic Spikes advisable. Haxorus with Roar advisable for to try to break Baton Pass with Espeon. Dragon Tail cannot be recalled by Assist, use it if the pokemon can learn both like Mew and Haxorus.
Tornadus-T is impossible to defeat unless you have a Pokemon with Toxic.
This team won't work unless the opponent is very bad player or the user has a lot of luck. I tell it as a curiosity.
@SlimMan
When i was telling that Adamant is the best nature, i was clearly talking about Rapid Spin Sandslash, which needs the power boost in order to ohko Jellicent at +2 with a Ground Plate and after SR and sandstorm damage.
Of 'course Jolly is the best nature if you are using Sandslash as a sweeper/revenge killer.
When i was telling that Adamant is the best nature, i was clearly talking about Rapid Spin Sandslash, which needs the power boost in order to ohko Jellicent at +2 with a Ground Plate and after SR and sandstorm damage.
Of 'course Jolly is the best nature if you are using Sandslash as a sweeper/revenge killer.
It would be +2 on Thundurus-T Slim. ;)
I'm pretty sure that he mentioned Scarf Thundurus-T.
And alright SlimMan, I'll try out the set you used and see how it'll go.
If I don't fail at recalling how to win weather wars...