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Genesect
- Thread starter Ad Terminum
- Start date
That's a pretty poor argument. Hydreigon gets the same perfect neutral and super effective coverage with a vast special movepool: dragon pulse, dark pulse, earth power, fire blast, surf etc., while Haxorus just got access to superpower and aqua tail to complete its physical movesets and also get past its only true counter in BW: Skarmory.
I think you're overestimating Genosect a bit.
Genesect is good, but it heavily relies on a S. Attack boost to do it's job. +1 Attack Genesect isn't remotely threatening at all. Without a boost to Special attack, it can't even 2HKO some bulky waters. It actually dawned on me, that if an entire team were to give Gensect Download boosts to it's attack, it just wouldn't be as effective.
imo, a physical attack set is definitely a waste of genesect. it sacrifices his fantastic special coverage for a just a bit of surprise value (actually it seems more people run a physical set in OU for some reason). he's a fantastic scarfer, no doubt, but i think a SpA ebelt set under the weather is the way to go because of his phenomenal type coverage.
+1 Attack Genesect is most definitely threatening, and the ability to get that +1 Attack boost is one of the main reasons it's good. With +1 Attack, it has a powerful U-turn comparable to CB Scizor's, while it can also make many U-turn resists (Skarmory, Forretress, Keldeo, etc.) scared of switching in thanks to its special coverage moves. Why rely on Genesect to 2HKO bulky waters with Thunderbolt? It's more productive to use a +1 U-turn to dent bulky waters like Vaporeon and Tentacruel, and then switch out into something like Thundurus/Rotom that can easily handle them. Genesect has the luxury of being fast enough with a Scarf to force out things like Lati@s, Starmie, Celebi, and Espeon, but really needs the +1 Attack boost for its best move, U-turn, to actually pack some punch.
Spamming U-turn only gets you so far. If I see a Genesect at +1 Attack, it's going to U-turn 99% of the time ( that 1% being like Dragonite, Gyarados, etc.) Genesect can't even OHKO Reuniclus with a +1 U-turn.
What I'm trying to get at is that Genesect's coverage is great, but it's power is lackluster. If I have Keldeo out and an opposing Genesect gets a +1 Attack, I'm staying in. U-turn struggles to do more than 25%, while Thunderbolt doesn't kill me either. (And If it's a Calm Mind set, it's doing even less) Meanwhile if Genesect has +1 Special Attack, it would do far better. THEN you can U-turn because surely +1 Thunderbolt OHKOs Keldeo. But with a Download boost to attack, all genesect can do is really bounce around while not get anything done.
To illustrate, Out of all the water types in OU, only Gyarados and Cloyster (Doesn't really matter because it outruns you after a Shell Smash anyway) are OHKO'd by Thunderbolt. Even Starmie has a chance to survive Thunderbolt, but it doesn't really matter because it's weak to Bug. So, If I have something like Keldeo against a +1 Attack Genesect, You either have a dead Genesect, or something is getting hit really hard by Keldeo because you used U-turn.
With +1 Attack, Scarf Genesect is kind of like Scarf Jirachi. It has a better U-turn obviously, but it's coverage moves really aren't going to revenge anything at full health because they do not have STAB or a boosting item. U-turn only works when you cause a switch, and not much is being OHKO'd by +0 Genesect coverage.
What I'm trying to get at is that Genesect's coverage is great, but it's power is lackluster. If I have Keldeo out and an opposing Genesect gets a +1 Attack, I'm staying in. U-turn struggles to do more than 25%, while Thunderbolt doesn't kill me either. (And If it's a Calm Mind set, it's doing even less) Meanwhile if Genesect has +1 Special Attack, it would do far better. THEN you can U-turn because surely +1 Thunderbolt OHKOs Keldeo. But with a Download boost to attack, all genesect can do is really bounce around while not get anything done.
To illustrate, Out of all the water types in OU, only Gyarados and Cloyster (Doesn't really matter because it outruns you after a Shell Smash anyway) are OHKO'd by Thunderbolt. Even Starmie has a chance to survive Thunderbolt, but it doesn't really matter because it's weak to Bug. So, If I have something like Keldeo against a +1 Attack Genesect, You either have a dead Genesect, or something is getting hit really hard by Keldeo because you used U-turn.
With +1 Attack, Scarf Genesect is kind of like Scarf Jirachi. It has a better U-turn obviously, but it's coverage moves really aren't going to revenge anything at full health because they do not have STAB or a boosting item. U-turn only works when you cause a switch, and not much is being OHKO'd by +0 Genesect coverage.
The point of a boosted U-Turn isn't to KO something, it's to dent a predicted switch in and bring in your true counter. You may get a KO here or there but it's about preserving momentum and keeping the pressure on your opponent. That's what makes Genesect so good...not that it's OHKO'ing stuff left and right, but that it preserves momentum and pressure, and when it needs to, it can also throw down and clean up.
That's the thing; +1 Attack Genesect isn't forcing many switches. It's +1 Special Attack that's going to cause the switches to occur. As a I said, anything that isn't 4 times weak to it's coverage or isn't weak to bug is staying in on a +1 Attack Genesect. At +0, it's coverage does not have enough power to scare things away, making U-turn kind of useless.
+1 Attack Genesect absolutely forces switches. The point is to keep the momentum on your side, and there are very few common OU 'mons that can handle +1 Attack Genesect but not +1 SpA Genesect. There's actually a lot of stuff at the top of OU that's 4x weak to one of Genesect's coverage moves, which is why it works so well.
Scizor, Ferrothorn, Dragonite, Breloom, Gliscor, Tyranitar, Starmie, Salamence, Forretress, Latios, Skarmory, and Gyarados are all scared of either +1 U-turn or the appropriate +0 coverage move.
Jirachi, Rotom, and Mamoswine take a hefty chunk from +1 U-turn as Genesect switches out to something that handles them better. There are better choices to use against them than Genesect.
Heatran, Ninetales, Volcarona, Infernape, and Terrakion eat Genesect for breakfast regardless of which boost it has. There is absolutely no reason to send out Genesect against any of them, so presumably they're switching in on you - in which case your +1 U-turn hits them harder than +0 U-turn, so you can bring out an appropriate counter.
That just leaves Keldeo, Politoed, Tentacruel, and Gengar. A +1 SpA Genesect definitely is better against the former two, as it can OHKO Keldeo and some Politoed with Thunderbolt, but still can't OHKO Gengar or Tentacruel.
Then you're tailoring an entire team to deal with ONE POKEMON, and that's rock stupid. No effective team has a set-up like that (sure, make sure your entire team has higher SpD than Def, have fun against Haxorus and Terrakion then!), so your point is entirely without merit.
Not necessarily, in cases where a pokemon has the same base defense and special defense adjusting an IV to make Genesect have an attack boost could be game changing. Granted the idea of doing for an entire team is a little much, but its much akin to SR numbers or LO numbers for HP, its the little things that can win battles sometimes
Genesect is a great pokemon but it isn't Tornadus-T or Thundurus-T. Genesect is probably the best Revenge Killer and has a perfect coverage + a great ability, this is why it's a great Pokemon. BUT, Genesect isn't extremely powerfull and isn't really fast (99 BS Speed). It is still a great Volturn member since it gets a free stab'd uturn with a boost in Atk sometimes.
Imo, Genesect isn't overestimated, people are right about it : it's a fantastic Pokemon. In addition, Download helps Genesect being stronger since it's what you're reproaching it (you have a Scarfed Pokemon with either a boost in Atk or in SAtk and a great coverage + a STAB'd U-Turn). Definitely a great Pokemon.
Imo, Genesect isn't overestimated, people are right about it : it's a fantastic Pokemon. In addition, Download helps Genesect being stronger since it's what you're reproaching it (you have a Scarfed Pokemon with either a boost in Atk or in SAtk and a great coverage + a STAB'd U-Turn). Definitely a great Pokemon.
You forgot many other things, such as Conkeldurr, Vaporeon, Gastrodon, Haxorus, Slowbro, Jellicent, Virizion, and Amoongus - in addtion to the ones you mentioned. All of these can deal with +1 Attack Genesect but falter if they are in front of +1 Special Attack Genesect.
Breloom doesn't care about Genesect because you always get OHKO'd by a boosted Mach Punch. So that doesn't really count. You aren't even Guaranteed a OHKO on Breloom anyway.
I'm not saying you should do that, but as was said if pokemon have even base defenses it might just be better off giving an extra EV or reducing 1 IV to make Genesect have a Attack boost. If you do this when you can, it makes Genesect easier to handle.
he was considered for banning on the dw server, if that dose not say he really means business then i don't know what dose, but everything catters to the main threat at the time, if jirachi is having trouble with genosect it will try to counter him if he really is an issue.
and as i said unlike hydrigeon or haxy he is top 10 he is a common threat, obviously that means your more likely to come across him and obviously that means he should be prioritised more.
if +1 uturn is not a threat, why exactly do we all run choice band on our scizors? bullet punch is not exactly a great spamming attack so i guess scizor can't force switches either, therefore its uturn is useless? uturn is not supposed to kill things, but when you get stab on it, it's more than a scouting move; it's intended to pack punch. just like hazards, it's damage that adds up. certainly a great deal of genesect's ability to force switches and revenge kill comes from the threat of eating a +1 fthrow/tbolt/ice beam, but you underestimate the significance of uturn if you assume that a +1 attack genesect is not a threat, and you also underestimate genesect's super effective coverage. you don't have to be able to 2hko a mon to force a switch.
and how exactly is haxorus not afraid of genesect? your +0 ice beam deals minimum 90% to 0/0 haxorus and haxorus can only ohko a genesect with a +1 adamant superpower (which it only accomplishes 18% of the time vs naive)
all of these are bulky by nature and obviously genesect is not going to be wallbreaking them any time soon. that's not its job. instead you drop a +1 uturn on them and switch to your wallbreaker. suddenly the mon has lost like a third of its health and is wondering how it's going to tank an attack from a mon that DOES have enough power to crack it. moreover, consider how much defense these mons have to have to prevent genesect from getting the +1 boost. there is NO way genesect will end up with an attack boost if it switches in on slowbro or conkeldurr so it WILL be getting a +1 spatk boost, and +1 uturn deals 40% minimum to 252/0 amoonguss (ie standard specially defensive variants) which is plenty since at the very least you force it to switch out and get regenerator recovery. virizion is definitely giving genesect a +1 attack boost and suddenly it eats 45% from uturn so you don't even need ice beam. that doesn't force switches?
and how exactly is haxorus not afraid of genesect? your +0 ice beam deals minimum 90% to 0/0 haxorus and haxorus can only ohko a genesect with a +1 adamant superpower (which it only accomplishes 18% of the time vs naive)
never said it was, and i was meaning here. You may never ban it but that dose not mean it was not talked about.
Genesect loses to, or is crippled by most of these even with the Special Attack boost. Again, why use Genesect to try to kill these things when you could just U-turn out into something better suited to take them on?
Conkeldurr - you lose thanks to Drain Punch
Vaporeon - cannot OHKO with Thunderbolt even at +1
Gastrodon - lose thanks to Recover (you can't do 50% with +1 Ice Beam to 252/252 Bold)
Haxorus - +0 Ice Beam is an OHKO with any hazards at all
Slowbro - +1 Thunderbolt is an OHKO, so this is a situation where +1 SpA > +1 Atk
Jellicent - cannot OHKO with Thunderbolt even at +1
Virizion - cannot OHKO with Ice Beam even at +1. +1 U-turn does more than +0 Ice Beam, and lets you avoid getting smashed by Focus Blast
Amoonguss - again, cannot OHKO with +1 Ice Beam, leaving Genesect to get crippled by Spore/Stun Spore.
Also, Breloom is always OHKOed by +0 Ice Beam, and can only OHKO Genesect with Mach Punch if it's at +2. The problem is that even with +1 SpA, Genesect fails to OHKO things like Tentacruel, Vaporeon, and Jellicent with Thunderbolt, and then you're Choice locked into an Electric-type move. As alkinesthetase says, if you do use Genesect against these aforementioned Pokemon, it's much better to dent them with a +1 U-turn and get out of there before you get nailed by the defensive Pokemon you're trying to break. (and a paralyzed/burned Genesect is a big liability.)
No one on the DW council has ever even suggested banning Genesect. If you mean by average players, then you may as well say "there's been talk of banning Ferrothorn", because those two statements have effectively the same validity.
This is totally biased. Banded Genesect works, as it reaches over 800 attack after +1. It even has an analysis and it going to be put on sight. Please think before you post good sir. The idea is to break its usual counters, just like Gravity / Special Landorus does to catch Skarm and Rotom-W. It isn't a gimmick and if you actually used it you would know. That would be like saying, "Why would anyone consider using Shuca Berry Jirachi?" when it placed ShakeItUp #1 on the ladder because it lures in its usual EQ counters.
It's awful physical movepool is the turn off, which why I think it's gimmick. But okay, have fun with your physical genesect. I could also argue about using a team which peaked at the top 5 with wigglytuff. But that doesn't mean wiggly is quite viable, it just means I know how to make a team.
the feeling was strong that is the diffrence
It is usually spamming U-turns. Its phsyical move pool is only dissapointing because it didn't get a fighting move. CB set can also utilized a mixed set. U-turn / Iron Head / Explosion / coverage attack (tbolt / etc). Wiggilituff is not OU material and I would like to see if it actually works. The difference between Wiggly and Gene is that Gene actually has an analysis for it that got approved by Smogon QC team. I'm not going to argue further, read the analysis. I'm currrently 1480 on Beta with CB Genesect...
Knowing how to make a team and judging a Pokemon set are completely different sir. So explain to me how being a better team builder warrants CB Genesect a useless gimmick on any team?