BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread

[Jimbon]

Just thought I'd throw in my perspective of the current BW2 metagame, as there does seem to be a lot of discussion about weather.

After the hype of Rain, I'm starting to see a little more diversity in terms of weather. I'd definitely agree that Sun Teams are on the rise, with the advent of Genesect / Dugtrio being able to hit all weather inducers hard and being able to trap and revenge them at low health. Not to mention the increasing popularity of Magma Storm Heatran, and Giga Drain Venusaur are other reasons why Sun is doing so well, and is actually holding it's own against other weathers.

Sand on the other hand is also getting more popular based on my experience. I'm seeing a lot of teams using Hippowdon / Spikes stacker / spin blocker / Stoutland, which is a very effective strategy, especially with Stoutland getting access to Superpower gives Stoutland the necessary coverage it needs to sweep. Being able to hit common checks to Stoutland such as Terrakion is pretty big, and is no wonder why I am seeing a lot of Stoutland usage. There are also other interesting options to use in Sand such as Stealth Rock Terrakion and Sand Veil Gliscor who I have also seen increase in usage. Stealth Rock Terrakion makes for a fantastic offensive user of Stealth Rock, being able to force switches and get hazards up safely is amazing. Sand Veil Gliscor on the other hand has always been an annoying Pokemon to face. Given the popularity of Technician Breloom, Gliscor is one of the best checks to it, as well as being able to perform well against any type of team if Sand Veil does decide to happen.

Despite this, Rain is still the most popular weather, however the margin between the different weathers is quickly decreasing. Other weathers are becoming more prepared to deal with the common offensive Rain Teams everyone was using at the start of BW2. Teams carrying Specially Defensive Jirachi or Chople Tyranitar heavily limit the effectiveness of Tornadus-T, while Gastrodon and Amoonguss help take on Thundurus and Keldeo respectively. However, that is not to say that Rain Offense is still not effective. This type of team still easily plows through unprepared teams, and with hazards up, it can be very hard to stop. The only difference is that as time goes on, people will find more options to deal with it, in a lot of cases, unorthodox and common Pokemon have a certain niche at being able to counter certain common threats. I think at this stage of the metagame, people are trying to find those "unorthodox" Pokemon that perform so well in this metagame.

 

[Lavos]

how do you feel about sigilyph hail, jimbon

 

[SpecsX]

I'm not saying Hail is great, I'm saying it's usable. Yes Aboma sucks, but you build a team that covers that weakness.

Sun is scary. I used to be more scared of it than rain until Tornadus-T was released. Now that sun is rising in popularity, It is now my biggest fear. Why? Simple. Victreebel, Venusaur, Sawsbuck, Lilligant, Infernape, Chandelure, and many other hard hitters. Unlike rain, which mostly benefts waters, Sun benefits fire and grass types almost equally.

 

[Ricky Horror]

Magnezone has a lot to enjoy from with the new rise of another Steel type that's 4x weak to Fire, yet I haven't really seen a high usage of its unique trapping ability, more so do to the rise of Genesect+Dugtrio. Does this mean Magnezone will see a drop to UU?

 

[Lavos]

Magnezone has a lot to enjoy from with the new rise of another Steel type that's 4x weak to Fire, yet I haven't really seen a high usage of its unique trapping ability, more so do to the rise of Genesect+Dugtrio. Does this mean Magnezone will see a drop to UU?

well of course the problem is that genesect can u-turn, the only way to kill it with magnezone would be to get it locked into a move that's not u-turn or flamethrower (or hp ground lol)...i would expect a test for magnezone in uu if the trend of genesect abuse continues

 

[SpecsX]

I don't think so. Dugtrio can't really use HP fire. Or even fire punch. Zone still has a niche here in OU, I don't see it dropping.

 

[Lavos]

I don't think so. Dugtrio can't really use HP fire. Or even fire punch. Zone still has a niche here in OU, I don't see it dropping.

he's talking about scenario:

1. you switch in magnezone to genesect
2. genesect uses u-turn
3. dugtrio comes in
4. dugtrio kills your magnezone

he's not referring to dugtrio trapping genesect lol

 

[Ricky Horror]

I don't think so. Dugtrio can't really use HP fire. Or even fire punch. Zone still has a niche here in OU, I don't see it dropping.

Wait, Dugtrio can Earthquake Magnezone to death. Balloons can be popped by an incoming Genesect. Sub and Scarfed are a more common sight

 

[Thorhammer]

I don't think Genesect has anything to do with any changes in Magnezone's usage. What's really an issue is Gothitelle showing up. We now have another slow, sturdy, specially-oriented trapper, and while Gothitelle has a lot of issues compared to Magnezone, it has a far better ability, trapping all Pokemon rather than just one type.

 

[Skore]

Sun is scary.

Fear the Light! it Burns!

Yes. Sawsbuck (reindeer form ofc) is one of my favorite chloro-sweepers as his amazing coverage and speed under sun allow him to come in on many common scarfers and DD'ers and still outspeed and KO. STAB Double Edge is sooo under-rated.

I run Expert Belt with Horn Leech/Double Edge/Nature Power (EQ)/ and Jump Kick.

With his good natural speed he has become a very good lead for me vs other weather starters as he KO's Toed, T-Tar and Ninetails with ease. He can't OHKO most Abomasnows but vs a hail team I use a different lead anyways.

I face a lot of other Sun Teams but most seem to use Venusaur, why do you think Sawsbuck is so under-used on Sun Teams?

 

[Ricky Horror]

I don't think Genesect has anything to do with any changes in Magnezone's usage. What's really an issue is Gothitelle showing up. We now have another slow, sturdy, specially-oriented trapper, and while Gothitelle has a lot of issues compared to Magnezone, it has a far better ability, trapping all Pokemon rather than just one type.

No not Genesect alone, but if the combo mentioned above becomes overwhelmingly popular not many players will welcome that with open arms.

 

[SpecsX]

he's talking about scenario:

1. you switch in magnezone to genesect
2. genesect uses u-turn
3. dugtrio comes in
4. dugtrio kills your magnezone

he's not referring to dugtrio trapping genesect lol

Lol, my bad. Now I think Zone might have a chance at dropping, but it still can kill Skarm. Oh and Bronzong, but who uses that?

 

[Lavos]

Lol, my bad. Now I think Zone might have a chance at dropping, but it still can kill Skarm. Oh and Bronzong, but who uses that?

bronzongs carry earthquake more than 50% of the time and even specs thunder from magnezone cannot ohko a standard bronzong after genesect uturns, so mag is really just for skarm/ferro/forre/sciz these days

also Skore, Sawsbuck is so underused on sun teams because 1) its coverage isn't great and 2) skarm hard walls it, whereas venusaur can even punch through the pink blobs one-on-one assuming it has giga drain

 

[SpecsX]

Sawsbuck gets Wild Charge. Gauranteed 2HKO on Specially defensive Skarm, but the recoil will hurt you badly. That's not mentioning you have to drop a move for that.

 

[Lavos]

252 Atk Life Orb Sawsbuck (+Atk) Wild Charge vs 252 HP/252 Def Skarmory (+Def) : 40.12% - 47.31%
3 hits to KO

Sawsbuck is so underused on sun teams because 1) its coverage isn't great and 2) skarm hard walls it

when you mentioned wild charge i thought i might be wrong...now i realize just how weak sawsbuck is. even a +2 wild charge will have no chance of ohko bar a crit, and skarm can ohko back with brave bird (even drill peck sometimes)

 

[SpecsX]

You do realize that's a 2HKO with Stealth Rock, right? Sawsbuck isn't as good as say, Venusaur, but i can hold it's own. If it can catch Skarm on the switch, that's a dead Skarm.

 

[Lavos]

You do realize that's a 2HKO with Stealth Rock, right?

okay first, sun teams have a hell of a time getting rocks up and keeping them up, as the most common users of rocks are donphan, dugtrio, and forretress - all of which are easily checked by two of the three most common spinners overall, starmie and opposing forretress. second, skarmory's most common item is leftovers, meaning that after stealth rocks (-12.5%) and the highest possible sawsbuck wild charge damage roll (-47.31%), then after leftovers (+6.25%) you would still need just about the highest possible damage roll to kill skarmory at its remaining health of 46.44%. basically skarmory hard walls it unless 1) you're running wild charge in the first place, 2) you have stealth rocks up, AND 3) you get two extremely high wild charge damage rolls in a row.

i think it's still safe to say that skarmory walls sawsbuck, and that's why it is not used nearly as much as venusaur.

 

[SpecsX]

Eh, I'd personally rather use Victreebel/Venusaur over Sawsbuck. Still, not much prior damage is required to turn that 3HKO into a 2HKO.

 

[Thorhammer]

~ Swords Dance
~ Horn Leech
~ Return
~ Nature Power / Jump Kick

Where exactly is Wild Charge ever going to fit into this?

 

[Ricky Horror]

A lot of Chlorophyll do opt to use Hidden Power Ice to take down Dragons, so to say Venusaur is hard walled by Skarmory to an extent. Victreebel is highly unappreciated, even though it carries Weather Ball, but of course with losing coverage with one Pokemon the next team mate is there to pick up the slack lol

 

[Lavos]

and speaking of Victreebel

@ Life Orb
Trait: Chlorophyll
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Growth
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Weather Ball

imo this beast far outclasses venusaur because it has the legendary grass/fire/ice coverage that venusaur lacks. while venusaur has to settle for hitting either steels or dragons, victreebel can do both without breaking a sweat. only thing that can withstand its attacks (bar pink blobs which it beats 1v1) is fire types which you can run sludge bomb > growth for if the pink blobs don't scare you.

discuss.

 

[SpecsX]

and speaking of Victreebel

@ Life Orb
Trait: Chlorophyll
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Growth
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Weather Ball

imo this beast far outclasses venusaur because it has the legendary grass/fire/ice coverage that venusaur lacks. while venusaur has to settle for hitting either steels or dragons, victreebel can do both without breaking a sweat. only thing that can withstand its attacks (bar pink blobs which it beats 1v1) is fire types which you can run sludge bomb > growth for if the pink blobs don't scare you.

discuss.

Finally, someone else who believes Victreebell is better than Venusaur. You forgot to mention that Heatran walls it though.

 

[alexwolf]

and speaking of Victreebel

@ Life Orb
Trait: Chlorophyll
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Growth
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Weather Ball

imo this beast far outclasses venusaur because it has the legendary grass/fire/ice coverage that venusaur lacks. while venusaur has to settle for hitting either steels or dragons, victreebel can do both without breaking a sweat. only thing that can withstand its attacks (bar pink blobs which it beats 1v1) is fire types which you can run sludge bomb > growth for if the pink blobs don't scare you.

discuss.

Before Venusaur got Giga Drain with Chlorophyll i could understand why one would use Victri over Venusaur, as it could beat the blobs one on one, but now that Venusaur has Giga Drain, it straight up outclasses any pure special set of Victri imo. Growth Venusaur with Giga Drain / HP Fire / Sludge Bomb covers everything it needs to, except Heatran, which walls Victreebel too. Sludge Bomb ohkoes any dragon and fire type after SR, at +2 (except from Heatran), while Victreebel gets walled by Infernape, Volcarona and Ninetales, in addition to Heatran, while also having wayyyy worse defenses and Speed.

 

[Electrolyte]

ok, as some of you may have seen in my warstory I'm am avid user of Sun, and I say that I disagree with Sun teams having a hard time setting hazards (though, ironically, my current team does not use hazards at all) As frequent team rater and a builder of Sun teams, I have noticed that the use of Forretress in the Sun has risen dramatically. And of course, there's Heatran, but a lot of people (like I) are finding that the Magma Storm set is really useful.

A major component in today's strategy of 'Sun' is trapping. Sun teams love pokemon like Gothitelle, Dugtrio, Magnezone, and sometimes even the rare Wobbuffet. The reason why this is so is because Sun teams are very high risk[/B] and very high reward. (this is especially true for Stall) In many of my matches, I either win with a 5/6 - 0 after 20 turns or I lose 5/6 - 0 after like 100 turns. With Sun, it's either the opponent's pokemon counters yours, or it doesn't. That's why trappers are so awesome in Sun teams- they quickly dispose of top threats to Sun- and give Sun teams the extra boost they need to win the match vs a Rain or a Sand team.Once those certain threats are gone, Sun teams can just plow through everything else like a flamethrower through already burning metal.

In my opinion though, having a spinner is better than having hazards for most Sun teams (Forretress covers both, so it's popular) Many common Sun sweepers/users hate Rocks- Ninetales, Volcorona, and Heatran. AND CHARIZARD[/B] Sun teams also tend to switch a lot to gain momentum, and hazards are what's stopping them. Stop the hazards, and you stop the stopper of Sun.

EDIT: I just got Ninja'd so hard

my opinions on victreebel vs venasaur:
One of the MAIN reasons why Venasaur is so good is because of Growth. I don't know anybody that has run a successful Venasaur set without Growth. Without Growth, Venasaur is quite weak, and after a sleep absorber has, well, absorbed the sleep, any semibulky Calm Mind user can set up on it. Let me repeat- GROWTH IS SUPER NECESSARY ON VENASAUR. It should be the second thing you do after you come in- unless an Encorer is waiting in the wings or a revenger is coming in to stop you. You should never let your opponent put you in a situation where you can't Growth. Because Venasaur is a shit ton less threatening without boosts under it's flowers.

Also, screw coverage. Just Sleep Powder, because it is very common that the opponent will only have one surfire counter to Venasaur. Shutting them down is a lot more helpful than hitting them with a coverage move.

 

[Lavos]

Finally, someone else who believes Victreebell is better than Venusaur. You forgot to mention that Heatran walls it though.

no i didn't, i said fire types wall it.

Before Venusaur got Giga Drain with Chlorophyll i could understand why one would use Victri over Venusaur, as it could beat the blobs one on one, but now that Venusaur has Giga Drain, it straight up outclasses any pure special set of Victri imo. Growth Venusaur with Giga Drain / HP Fire / Sludge Bomb covers everything it needs to, except Heatran, which walls Victreebel too. Sludge Bomb ohkoes any dragon and fire type after SR, at +2 (except from Heatran), while Victreebel gets walled by Infernape, Volcarona and Ninetales, in addition to Heatran, while also having wayyyy worse defenses and Speed.

ok i understand that venusaur is really good after a growth, but what if you don't have time to growth? in that late-game scenario when the idea is to hit hard and fast, victreebel is a much more suitable pokemon to have, as hp ice will take out mence and dnite (the latter after rocks) even at +0. can't say the same for venusaur's sludge bomb. it's also a better revenge killer for those same reasons. also, i don't think bringing up fire types is a huge point in venusaur's favor, as dugtrio can kill basically any fire type that's not scarf infernape. it all depends on the situation; sometimes venusaur is a better growth sweeper, and sometimes victreebel is. however, overall i'd rather have victreebel, it seems to function better in more scenarios.

ok, as some of you may have seen in my warstory I'm am avid user of Sun, and I say that I disagree with Sun teams having a hard time setting hazards (though, ironically, my current team does not use hazards at all) As frequent team rater and a builder of Sun teams, I have noticed that the use of Forretress in the Sun has risen dramatically. And of course, there's Heatran, but a lot of people (like I) are finding that the Magma Storm set is really useful.

A major component in today's strategy of 'Sun' is trapping. Sun teams love pokemon like Gothitelle, Dugtrio, Magnezone, and sometimes even the rare Wobbuffet. The reason why this is so is because Sun teams are very high risk[/B] and very high reward. (this is especially true for Stall) In many of my matches, I either win with a 5/6 - 0 after 20 turns or I lose 5/6 - 0 after like 100 turns. With Sun, it's either the opponent's pokemon counters yours, or it doesn't. That's why trappers are so awesome in Sun teams- they quickly dispose of top threats to Sun- and give Sun teams the extra boost they need to win the match vs a Rain or a Sand team.Once those certain threats are gone, Sun teams can just plow through everything else like a flamethrower through already burning metal.

In my opinion though, having a spinner is better than having hazards for most Sun teams (Forretress covers both, so it's popular) Many common Sun sweepers/users hate Rocks- Ninetales, Volcorona, and Heatran. AND CHARIZARD[/B] Sun teams also tend to switch a lot to gain momentum, and hazards are what's stopping them. Stop the hazards, and you stop the stopper of Sun.

ok i don't really get what you're trying to say. first, you claim hazards aren't hard to set and keep up with sun, but then you say forretress is the most common sun hazard setter. okay...that would be cool except forretress loses to every single ou spinner making it actually quite difficult to keep hazards up with sun.

also, you claim that stealth rock is what stops sun teams. this is true, but then you go on to say that forretress covers hazards, which is completely false. forretress, because of its extremely low speed, has a hard time getting off rapid spin without sustaining heavy damage. also, it's easily trapped - magnezone and hp fire gothitelle easily shut it down, preventing it from spinning late-game and making your sun team an easy target for rocks. finally, forretress is hilariously easy to spinblock. any team packing stealth rock + jellicent makes forretress woefully unusable. even gengar, which is 2hko'd by gyro ball, is a decent spinblocker to forretress. focus blast is a 2hko, so even if it misses one, forretress is still put in easy ko range for just about anything, again preventing it from spinning.

tl;dr: forretress sucks. start using xatu, it's my avatar for a reason.