General Suspect Discussion Thread

[Jimera0]

Rain is not even a playstyle to begin with. Rain is nothing more than a boost to different playstyles since it is so versatile. I would also like to mention that wouldn't it be more logical to ban drizzle in general rather than a single Pokemon who is not even broken outside of rain? Also, it's not that we don't want to adjust to the metagame, but because wins or losses are decided by the pure team matchup is pretty bad.

But it's not determined by team matchup unless your team doesn't handle common metagame threats properly, which is a problem with teambuilding, not with team matchup. It'd be like building a team that couldn't handle stall last generation, losing against it consistently, then claiming that team matchup is a problem. You can't just ignore entire sections of the metagame like that and justify it by calling them cheap or overpowered. You could argue that team BUILDING is more important this generation than last; that's a decent argument. But I don't see how that would be a bad thing.

You're right that it isn't "a" playstyle though. It's a number of playstyles. But let's not argue semantics here. The point is there are a LOT of Pokemon that would not be viable if it were not for Drizzle, abusers and counters both. And I maintain that it doesn't make a lot of Pokemon non-viable in return, not nearly as many anyway. You'd hurt the diversity of the metagame by banning it. A lot more than you would by banning a single Pokemon certainly. The logic is simple. One pokemon, versus something like a half dozen, not to mention dozens of alternate rain abusing sets for Pokemon like Dragonite. I don't see what the hangup is here.

EDIT: @ undisputed
Well that's pretty much how I write. It's hard for me to be more concise without taking a LOT more time writing my posts. If people are interested in my opinion, they'll read it. If not, then whatever, their loss.

 

[undisputed]

As for Deoxys-D, I find that, though it does its job very well, it's not as good at laying hazards as Deoxys-S was. The massive difference in speed counts, and the prominence of scarf Genesect as a lead can make it difficult for Deoxys to get in safely. Despite its decent speed, there are faster taunters out there (anything with Prankster, Aerodactyl, Tornadus-T, etc.) and threats such as scarf Politoed that Deoxys-D can't tank a hit from. In addition to that, there are many viable spinners out there that can easily remove Deoxys' precious hazards, and Deoxys can't hope to beat all of them on its own.
So while I agree that Deoxys-D is very effective as a hazards setter, and might be the best hazard setter in OU right now, he is far from overcentralizing or broken. In fact, his ability to lay hazards is a fantastic deterrent to Volt-Turn, and stuff like Scizor and Genesect in general.

You just contradicted yourself there. Genesect really doesn't stop Deoxys-D anyway you look at it. It at best U-turns while Deoxys-D gets up Stealth Rock. Then Deoxy-D switches out and can be saved for, at worst, a sacrifice Pokemon to keep the momentum on your side. At worst it comes in on a slower Pokemon and still gets up Spikes which is its job.

I just now saw Undisputed's post about Deoxys-D being broken, so here is my answer...

I don't believe that HO match-ups are up to a coinflip, as you are not forced to use Deoxys-D, because there are also other hazard and DS leads for HO teams, mianly Azelf and Espeon. Azelf wins vs Magic Coat-less Deoxys-D, still has SR and Taunt, while also having immense offensive pressence which he can abuse with Ice Punch, Fire Blast, Psychic, and Explosion. Espeon counters Deoxys-D no matter what, as well as setting up fast, un-Tauntable screens for your sweeprs to abuse, as well as having Yawn to prevent set-up and Baton Pass for momentum. Finally if you don't want to lead with one of those 2 pokes to deal with Deoxys-D, you can always lead with Scizor at turn 1, and immediately put the pressure on the opponent. If they use Taunt, while you use Bug Bite, they just lost any hope of hazards being up, and if they used SR as you used SD, then they are in for some serious pain. Or with your Volcarona. And the list goes on.

No offense, but I'm not sure how qualified you are to speak about Deoxys-D if you're bring up Azelf and Espeon as your first rebuttals.

I have been playing both Suspect OU and Normal OU off and on for the past couple weeks and have high rankings, and I don't think I've seen anyone use a Taunt lead Azelf other than myself. And if you're running Azelf, you're probably running a Screens Offense team, which is actually what I was doing.

Furthermore, very few people use Espeon. I've only seen it on Baton Pass teams. Suggesting Yawn is completely ludicrous as well.

I'd like to see list of Pokemon that stop Deoxys from getting Stealth Rock to open a match. Scizor runs the risk of taking HP Fire, so it doesn't count. No good player would take that risk unless there was a strong reason to believe Deoxy-D doesn't have HP Fire. Volcarona doesn't count either because it can just be Taunt/T-Waved and can't OHKO Deoxys with Bug Buzz.

Why? Because then I'm banning a single Pokemon instead of an entire play-style. It's not a hard choice for me to make. It'd be different if there were 4 or 5 Pokemon that were broken under it, but the vast majority of people don't think that's the case. Certainly, there are no 4 or 5 we can all agree on.

Arguments that rain TEAMS are, in and of themselves, unfair fall flat to me simply because I have never, at any point in this generation, had so much trouble with rain that I felt it was forcing me into a corner. This includes at the the start of my experience with BW, where I might as well have been a newbie considering how long I had been gone from the competitive scene and all the new stuff introduced in generation V. It's hard to sympathize with an opinion so foreign to me.

Weather is a part of generation V. This is not Generation IV, and I can't help but to think that people striving for a weatherless metagame are just reaching to have Gen IV with new Pokemon. The simple fact is that it's never been like that. Every generation has brought in not just new Pokemon, but new a whole new competitive environment. Generation II brought in entry hazards, Generation III brought in abilities, Generation IV brought in Stealth Rock and the physical special split. Generation V has brought in permanent weather conditions (fully I mean. Obviously Hail and Sandstorm were around before). You're not going to win playing as you would in generation IV, just as in generation IV you would not have won if you were playing like it was generation III. You have to adapt to change. Step out of your comfort zone and learn a new thing. I feel like some of us are still stuck in the past.

Please note that I'm not saying everyone should think the way I do. But I'd weep to see so much of what makes this generation special vanish because some people just don't want to adjust to it. I like the game the way it is, with all its competing and varied strategies, each one providing a unique but fair challenge to overcome.

If possible, can you make your posts more concise and to the point? They are very long and wordy and it makes them hard to read. I'm sure you have something constructive to add to the discussion, but I think most posters are intimidated by the length of your posts and how you bury your main points in the paragraphs. Attention span is pretty low on the internet, haha.

 

[tehy]

Yeah, if i have six magikarp, i shouldn't lose just because my team matches up badly! WTF!!!


Seriously; pure team matchup? Explain further, because right now what i think is that you had a weakness to something in your teambuilding that someone had, and it beats you, and so you're mad about it. Which is a hazard of pokemon.

Jimera, your post was awesome and had a great point. The above poster is no longer undisputed, for i have disputed his conclusion.

 

[alexwolf]

Rain is not even a playstyle to begin with. Rain is nothing more than a boost to different playstyles since it is so versatile. I would also like to mention that wouldn't it be more logical to ban drizzle in general rather than a single Pokemon who is not even broken outside of rain? Also, it's not that we don't want to adjust to the metagame, but because wins or losses are decided by the pure team matchup is pretty bad.

This reasoning is faulty. Why are you blaming Drizzle and not the poke's characteristics, that made it broken. Drizzle affects a dozen of pokes, which it doesn't break, so this means that if a poke is broken under Drizzle, it is a combination of stats + ability + movepool + typing + drizzle. Why are you blaming Drizzle for the brokeness of one poke?

 

[yee]

No one is banning anything because they are mad they lost or they don't want to change their playstyle- that's a stupid belief and I won't waste time justifying myself. In real tournament games, you guess what playstyle the other guy is using and load the team for them, guess right you win, wrong you lose. Less than a third of the time does the decision come from skill.

 

[GatoDelFuego]

I think what people have been trying to say about the game becoming "matchup-based" is the fact that so many new, easy, mindless offensive toys have been thrown out into the community, and noobs with absolutely zero skill can abuse them with ease. Take sun for example. Any unskilled player can take ninetales, dugtrio, genesect, and three chlorophyll sweepers, put them on a team, and probably dismantle half of the ladder right now. In every generation before this, the game came down to skill and prediction much more than it does now. And while I do think that prediction is still involved, it only occurs once in a game; the point when either a weather inducer goes down, or a spinblocker goes down, or a rapid spinner goes down. Each of these ruin the rest of the game for a certain style of play. Why has the game devolved into one turn of decision? Never before this metagame have we been punished for mispredictions as we are now. A game will either be decided from the start, come down to one of the clutch predictions I just mentioned, or a speed tie.

In older generations, if you had a weakness in your team to something, it was probably (just using DPP as an example) SD scizor, or DD taunt gyarados, or CeleTran, or something like that. All of these can be played around. However, if you have a weakness to sun, then you're talking about 10 or 15+ pokes able to be used in synergy with each other that are all capable of sweeping a team themselves. You can't "play around" that in any way. I'd really like to find a weatherless team that can find a reliable way to "hard counter" sun. If you have a team all set for sun, you have a weakness to rain, something you can't "play around" even if you're the number 1 pokemon player in the world. There's always going to be something that's out of your control, and it's decided either at the start of a game or in some coin flip turn where the fate of everything rests. Weather vs Weather is like taking two of achilles straight out of greek mythology and having them mindlessly fight each other until they find each other's one weakness.

Sometimes, it can still be enjoyable, but it sure isn't what it used to be.

 

[Shining_Latios]

Yeah, most of the time if I bring a nonweather team against a rain team I will lose. My team can only handle taking so much rain boosted water-type attacks. Also, alexwolf, at what point did I say I was blaming Drizzle for the brokeness of one Pokemon? Like I said before, exploiting Drizzle is how many Pokemon are becoming powerhouses under the rain. If we just ban Drizzle/Rain instead of individual bans it will make the metagame more balanced since other teams will generally struggle to compete against rain. Rain just has too much of an offensive presence.

 

[doublenikesocks]

I think that unbanning exadrill would put a halt to rain. It would help sand the same way that genesect boosted sun recently.

I don't see any pokemon as broken in this meta, some are just better than others.

 

[alexwolf]

Yeah, most of the time if I bring a nonweather team against a rain team I will lose. My team can only handle taking so much rain boosted water-type attacks. Also, alexwolf, at what point did I say I was blaming Drizzle for the brokeness of one Pokemon? Like I said before, exploiting Drizzle is how many Pokemon are becoming powerhouses under the rain. If we just ban Drizzle/Rain instead of individual bans it will make the metagame more balanced since other teams will generally struggle to compete. Rain just has too much of an offensive presence.

Ah excuse me, i assumed that you were implying it. Anyway i get what you say, and i can see where you are coming from, it is just that i don't think that rain gives an unfair advantage over weatherless teams, as long as you have solid teambuilding skills. We have many bulky mons with solid recovery to handle rain boosted water hits, such as Celebi, Jellicent, Amoonguss and Gastrodon, which can fit into many teams and have multiple roles, so they shouldn't be a problem.

 

[Thorhammer]

I think what people have been trying to say about the game becoming "matchup-based" is the fact that so many new, easy, mindless offensive toys have been thrown out into the community, and noobs with absolutely zero skill can abuse them with ease. Take sun for example. Any unskilled player can take ninetales, dugtrio, genesect, and three chlorophyll sweepers, put them on a team, and probably dismantle half of the ladder right now. In every generation before this, the game came down to skill and prediction much more than it does now. And while I do think that prediction is still involved, it only occurs once in a game; the point when either a weather inducer goes down, or a spinblocker goes down, or a rapid spinner goes down. Each of these ruin the rest of the game for a certain style of play. Why has the game devolved into one turn of decision? Never before this metagame have we been punished for mispredictions as we are now. A game will either be decided from the start, come down to one of the clutch predictions I just mentioned, or a speed tie.

In older generations, if you had a weakness in your team to something, it was probably (just using DPP as an example) SD scizor, or DD taunt gyarados, or CeleTran, or something like that. All of these can be played around. However, if you have a weakness to sun, then you're talking about 10 or 15+ pokes able to be used in synergy with each other that are all capable of sweeping a team themselves. You can't "play around" that in any way. I'd really like to find a weatherless team that can find a reliable way to "hard counter" sun. If you have a team all set for sun, you have a weakness to rain, something you can't "play around" even if you're the number 1 pokemon player in the world. There's always going to be something that's out of your control, and it's decided either at the start of a game or in some coin flip turn where the fate of everything rests. Weather vs Weather is like taking two of achilles straight out of greek mythology and having them mindlessly fight each other until they find each other's one weakness.

Sometimes, it can still be enjoyable, but it sure isn't what it used to be.

1) "Never before this metagame have we been punished for mispredictions as we are now" is an odd complaint when you're saying this metagame is more based on matchups and less on making the right moves in battle.

2) A hard counter for sun would mean that its presence would determine the result of games against sun teams, making the game more matchup-based. On the contrary, hard counters are few and far between in BW2, as you observed. That makes things less based around matching up the right counters, and therefore less matchup-based.

 

[Jimera0]

@Yee

Well not being a tournament player myself, I can't say I'm qualified to question your statement, though it does still ring false or at least overly simplistic.

I can say however that pure tournament play should not dictate our policy. While we do have a large and important tournament community, an even larger number of players don't touch the serious tournaments, and instead aim to have success and fun on the ladder. These people are every bit as important to our community as the tournament players. And on the ladder, what you described doesn't happen, and making your changes would have a large negative impact on the ladder for a very large number of players by greatly lowering the variety of Pokemon and teams they can use.

@GatoDelFuego
You're right, a lot of easy to play team archetypes have taken shape, and with them you can win consistently on the ladder, being matched up against other weak players. But that's not necessarily a bad thing. Once PS's ladder is fixed up a bit, the weak players will be weeded out again and the stronger players will rise above the newbies using easy teams, as they always have. Weather does not change that, because good players know easy strategies and know how to beat them. The very thing that makes them easy to use, being formulaic, makes them easy to counter and beat. Skill still dominates, and the easy to use teams just give new players an easy and welcoming way to join the community. I know in the past a lot of people I know have been put off due to the difficulty in getting into competitive Pokemon. Now, that's not as big an issue as before. I don't see how this is a bad thing, since it affects skilled players little while bringing more people into the community.

And I honestly don't know what you're saying with having a weakness to sun meaning you're weak to all 10-15 of its abusers. I don't know about you, but usually when I say my team has issues with sun I'm usually talking about one sub-set of abusers, say Volcarona or the fire type nukes (IE Vicinti and Darmanitan) or Chlorophyl abusers. Pokemon that are similar enough that they share more or less the same counters. And I can still play around these weaknesses. If I don't have anything that can wall powerful fire type moves, I focus on having revenge killers or SR to wear them down, for example. You don't have to be a super high caliber player to do it.

So no, you can't hard counter Sun very easily unless you pack it with Dragonite, Heatran and the lati@s twins or something. But then, can you hard counter Bulky offense with a single Pokemon? or Stall or HO or balanced? No, they're too diverse. Having a lot of stuff to counter in a playstyle doesn't make it bad.

And you can counter enough of the threats to win against most sun and rain teams just fine. I do it with my current team you know, it's neither sun weak nor rain weak. My last team wasn't either, or was the one before that. And I'm not claiming to be a team-building savant. It isn't that hard if you make the effort. It's perfectly possible and indeed common to make weatherless teams that do well in this metagame full of sun and rain.

There's always going to be something that's out of your control, and it's decided either at the start of a game or in some coin flip turn where the fate of everything rests.

This is nothing new. Pokemon is never entirely in the player's control by its very nature as a competitive game. The addition of luck elements only adds to this. While I think you're exaggerating by saying that it happens in every game, it does happen quite often simply because of the nature of Pokemon itself. Weather has nothing to do with it.

 

[yee]

1) "Never before this metagame have we been punished for mispredictions as we are now" is an odd complaint when you're saying this metagame is more based on matchups and less on making the right moves in battle.

2) A hard counter for sun would mean that its presence would determine the result of games against sun teams, making the game more matchup-based. On the contrary, hard counters are few and far between in BW2, as you observed. That makes things less based around matching up the right counters, and therefore less matchup-based.

1. If it's a 50/50 guess, it's not skill. There are predictions that factor in more but not when referring to a coin flip.

2. Shed Shell Heatran w/ SR + Dragons sand teams beat sun 99% of the time. That post is flat invalid.

 

[Shining_Latios]

Ah excuse me, i assumed that you were implying it. Anyway i get what you say, and i can see where you are coming from, it is just that i don't think that rain gives an unfair advantage over weatherless teams, as long as you have solid teambuilding skills. We have many bulky mons with solid recovery to handle rain boosted water hits, such as Celebi, Jellicent, Amoonguss and Gastrodon, which can fit into many teams and have multiple roles, so they shouldn't be a problem.

Honestly, no rain team will come unprepared for these Pokemon as they are the biggest threats to them. Tornadus-T smacks Celebi and Amoonguss easily and 2HKO's Jellicent. Almost every rain team packs a grass-type as well, so Gastrodon gets pulverized. Rain teams can counter too and will have the upper hand almost every single time.

 

[alexwolf]

Honestly, no rain team will come unprepared for these Pokemon as they are the biggest threats to them. Tornadus-T smacks Celebi and Amoonguss easily and 2HKO's Jellicent. Almost every rain team packs a grass-type as well, so Gastrodon gets pulverized. Rain teams can counter too and will have the upper hand almost every single time.

According to the same logic, then the user of the bulky water/grasses will also have something that checks/counters the things that beat them, so this doesn't lead us anywhere...

 

[PttP]

man once you get to the point where someone wants to ban voltturn you know everything has taken a turn for the worse

might as well ban toxic as it is an inconvience to my playstyle smh

 

[Thorhammer]

1. If it's a 50/50 guess, it's not skill. There are predictions that factor in more but not when referring to a coin flip.

2. Shed Shell Heatran w/ SR + Dragons sand teams beat sun 99% of the time. That post is flat invalid.

And there's nothing to make this any more of a coin flip than other predictions.

Can't judge the opposing claims one way or another on the second point, as I've never tried sun.

 

[Valhalla]

I actually find Rain to be the easiest weather to deal with when using a weatherless team due to the ban of Drizzle and Swift Swim. A team with multiple Chlorophyll abusers (though somewhat uncommon) is much more threatening, IMO.

I am prone to using HO teams, to offer some perspective, and am not big on stall at all.

Drizzle is definitely not overpowered in my opinion. Clearly, Rain has more abusers and perks than other types of weather, and yet I don't feel that it severely limits the playstyles of the OU metagame.

Tornadus-T is a clear candidate, however. He overcentralizes Rain, I feel, due to his extremely high threat level in Rain, his ability to tear apart both offensive teams (especially weatherless) and stall due to his top-tier speed and wall-breaking capabilities, and his ability to greatly aid in winning the weather war due to his favorable matchup against most opposing weather starters. He has access Taunt and Substitute to give stall teams the run around, blazing speed and access to U-turn and Regenerator (lol, hazards?) to lure out and weaken Choice Scarfers, and Superpower to get around what would be otherwise great counters, such as Blissey and Specially Defensive Tyranitar.

It just feels like he has too many tools at his disposal that enable him to assault weatherless and opposing weather teams of various playstyles, and ensure that a Rain team is in a more advantageous position.

 

[BKC]

The reason BW is ridiculed as a metagame by so many top players is because so much depends on team match-up, and that doesn't mean "the guy whose team is better wins", it means "the guy whose team matches up better against the other one wins, even if he gets outplayed". Important pressure-filled tournament matches used to show if you really were good or not, but in BW, it's become more like a contest of which team to bring, because if you've got a good matchup, then you have to choke really hard to lose, and if you've got a bad matchup, even out-playing the other guy at every corner usually won't save you, meaning your best option is to hope your opponent chokes. Does this sound like an ideal metagame to you? When games are won/lost on team selection, not actual playing? The winner of a battle is, more often than not, the player who had an advantageous matchup, not the player who played better. I have played in and witnessed several battles where one dude completely outplayed the other guy, but still lost because the team matchup was impossible to overcome. This isn't a rare occurrence or anything, I can name a ton of instances where this happened in the most recent World Cup. You can't shake this off with the rebuttal "your team is bad if it's constantly got matchup syndrome"; well then, I guess the reason all the important World Cup battles were pretty much decided on matchups and 50/50 coinflips is because all those high-level players had some pretty terrible teams, right?

So, BKC, how about actually proposing a solution instead of just bitching about how terrible the metagame is? Sure! I'm supporting yee's suggestion of banning Drizzle, Drought, and Deoxys-D. I believe that this will make the metagame much less matchup-reliant, for reasons I cannot word better than yee did in his post. Once we do this, we'll have taken a giant step forward in making BW OU a more competitive metagame.

 

[Myzozoa]

I am very biased and kind of torn on the Deoxys-D issue.

I know from experience that most teams are able to handle Deoxys-D. Good teams naturally have a way of preventing it from going nuts. The problem is that with bit of support Deoxys-D is going to get 2 layers up every game unavoidably unless you run Espeon/Xatu. Deo-D +Ghost, basically automatic layers without difficulty. In BW1 (but not bw2) it was very easy for Volt-turn to get layers up and then never give you a free turn to spin even when they didn't have a ghost. But now there has been an influx of pokemon faster than Deo-D that can set-up on it and get their own hazards up while Deo-D does the same, which is why I don't think that Deo-D should be looked at until the metagame has settled down. In my experience with BW2 Deo-D is much less threatening than in BW1, Volt-turn is troubled by the new faster metagame and cannot support Deo-D the way it could in bw1.

I definitely agree that winning is too often based on team match-up, making the right moves in the battle just isn't enough when Genesect is running around, if you mispredict against it you lose. The guessing game problem can't be pinned on genesect, but I think it's the epitome of the issue and I want it banned simply for that reason.

 

[X5Dragon]

No offense as I don't want to break any rules but it seems better to me if we went through the same process as when we started BW1. All the threats where there, it was clear who was broken beyond relief (Drizzle + Swift Swim OU mons). Afterwards we looked again and again at the metagame, removing in succession Chomp, Blaziken, Excadrill, Thundrus and finally Deo-S and we achieved this balance for a month or two until BW2 was released and new forms/mons/abilities were available.

We need to push the hard reset button and unban all the previous suspects and bring them back at the metagame, see who raises above all else and is essentially broken and go through the process of elimination once more.

Because we can talk about the brokenness of Genesect Drizzle, Volt-Turn and Tornadus-T but the arguments will never be complete and there will always be the very valid "what if Speed Boost Blaziken was here, would Genesect even be used? Or how about that T-wave Thundrus putting scarfers in their places", etc.

I am also not calling for the complete reversal of Aldaron's proposal, rather a selective application of it to the relevant broken mons that appear after the suspect test.

=================

I edited my post to remove my objection to Tornadus-T's nomination especially after hearing what everyone else has said, but I'm still pushing for Genesect to be tested.

Hazards and faster scarfers are fine and all until we remember it has a STAB U-Turn that can make you face bouncers/spinners or trappers of their own. The only hard counters at this point are Airballoon Heatran, facotring in all of it's moves physical and special.

 

[Bowl Cut]

We need to push the hard reset button and unban all the previous suspects and bring them back at the metagame, see who raises above all else and is essentially broken and go through the process of elimination once more.

Yeah, why not. We should totally go back on 2 years of hard work just to attempt to rebalance the metagame. Not only is it stupid, but it's also a waste of time, since we will end up banning the same things over time. You don't bring down broken and overpowered Pokemon just to check others. Should be obvious enough.

 

[ginganinja]

We need to push the hard reset button and unban all the previous suspects and bring them back at the metagame, see who raises above all else and is essentially broken and go through the process of elimination once more.

I really hope you are kidding. Your idea is logical, sure, but in practise it could never really work. For starters, it took us months, to ban those pokemon, players left the OU metagame in disgust (remember that you are also arguing for a Shaymin-S + Darkrai unban, Moody too), and the end result would prolly be the same metagame we have now, we just would have wasted a good 8 months getting there, and still wouldn't have a metagame that we want to arrive at (judging from this thread anyway). Hard resetting would just waste so much time, and I would rather fix the shit we have now (if any), before we start bring shit back down to retest.

The key factor is that according to your post, you believe that BW1 arrived at "balance" which I don't believe is the case. Most players can agree that the BW1 metagame was shit, or at least, not ideal, hard resetting so we can arrive at a previous metagame none of us really liked is a pointless endeavour imo.

Because we can talk about the brokenness of Genesect Drizzle, Volt-Turn and Tornadus-T but the arguments will never be complete and there will always be the very valid "what if Speed Boost Blaziken was here, would Genesect even be used? Or how about that T-wave Thundrus putting scarfers in their places", etc.

Err what? Those arguments will always happen, christ people still argue that Thundurus should not have been banned in BW. We sure as hell can talk about whats broken in this metagame, and I don't think we need to adopt a "yo lets unban loads of shit just to make sure if Genosect really is broken" policy (which your post seems to imply, I am sorry if that's not your intention) in order to suspect things.

EDIT yep Bowl Cut explained it much better with 100% less tl;dr

 

[X5Dragon]

I hate to break it to you and without name calling, but every suspect testing is an attempt to balance the metagame. Nobody can say for sure how the previous uber suspects would perform in BW2, otherwise the OP wouldn't even mention the possibility of a discussion about retesting some of them back into OU.

I merely cut the argument and arguably the time short and proposed an encompassing suspect test.


Edit: I'm not arguing for Moody to be unbanned because it falls under the "broken regardless of pokemon" category I mentioned in the Chomp topic.

Edit2: I only want the current suspects to be tested at the same time as the uber suspects people nominate at the next thread instead of doing each separately, because only then can everyone be truly satisfied. If that was the intention from the beginning then I just merely voiced my support for it.

 

[jc104]

X5Dragon: the key here is that the ubers cutoff is entirely arbitrary. There is absolutely no need for OU to be the balanced metagame of the absolute highest power level, because I'm sure that would involve several of the pokemon even you would consider to be definitely uber.

 

[GatoDelFuego]

The reason BW is ridiculed as a metagame by so many top players is because so much depends on team match-up, and that doesn't mean "the guy whose team is better wins", it means "the guy whose team matches up better against the other one wins, even if he gets outplayed". Important pressure-filled tournament matches used to show if you really were good or not, but in BW, it's become more like a contest of which team to bring, because if you've got a good matchup, then you have to choke really hard to lose, and if you've got a bad matchup, even out-playing the other guy at every corner usually won't save you, meaning your best option is to hope your opponent chokes. Does this sound like an ideal metagame to you?

This is absolutely true, and is the point I've been trying to make this entire time. Thank you.