General Suspect Discussion Thread

[yee]

People blame matchup too much for sloppy teambuilding, if your team has an prominent weakness to a playstyle or threat, that is your fault. Teambuilding involves opportuinty cost, it is very hard to make a completely foolproof team, but you can most definitely limit your weaknesses to the extent where you dont need to be "guessing" which playstyle the opponent is going to be using to select your team. By placing such high importance of what your matchup with your opponent may be, you are essentially creating a situation yourself where matchup is important.(not sure if this makes sense) I've had plenty of games where i have had "bad matchup" and still won with clever play (although this is easier with offensive teams). If matchup was such a guessing game and the most important factor as you put it, why are certain players so much more dominant than others in the BW tournament scene, or perhaps they are just really lucky with their matchups? (this is a joke btw)



O rly?

I would love to see some evidence to back up all your very precise statistics...



i would be interested if you were to post logs from wcop which were decided "by matchup", as it seems to me, most games allegedly decided by matchup could have been avoided, or the matchup angle is overstated.


i also think a suspect ladder with no weather would be pretty neat for tests and stuff.

Not to brag but my tournament record in the last 30 or so bw based games I've played is about 75% (world cup/tag team/dpp ou vs bw uu), with no free Baton Pass wins. I know how to play a tourney. To go far in a bw ou tourney you just brought Baton Pass or counterteamed whatever you expected the other guy to bring and if you guessed the right teams you won even more than 75%. If you want to be more successful you need to be luckier or load the right team and go through the motions.

I ran Rem's team a lot in tests/games during wcop which was Balloon Tran / Skarm / Jelli / CB Nite / Specs Latios / Scarf Tar. That's one of the least matchup prone teams I ever used, troubled by Skarm + Voltturn but it happened to beat standard sun for free, I could just compensate for Gene + Duggy by running Shed Shell / Shuca on Tran . If their Forry can't spin they simply crumble to the dragons/Tran/Tar easily.

If you want logs of 50/50 or matchup based games just go to the wcop final thread (don't look at mine btw that game goes either way when we both play well).

 

[Jimera0]

Not to brag but my tournament record in the last 30 or so bw based games I've played is about 75% (world cup/tag team/dpp ou vs bw uu), with no free Baton Pass wins. I know how to play a tourney. To go far in a bw ou tourney you just brought Baton Pass or counterteamed whatever you expected the other guy to bring and if you guessed the right teams you won even more than 75%. If you want to be more successful you need to be luckier or load the right team and go through the motions.

I ran Rem's team a lot in tests/games during wcop which was Balloon Tran / Skarm / Jelli / CB Nite / Specs Latios / Scarf Tar. That's one of the least matchup prone teams I ever used, troubled by Skarm + Voltturn but it happened to beat standard sun for free, I could just compensate for Gene + Duggy by running Shed Shell / Shuca on Tran . If their Forry can't spin they simply crumble to the dragons/Tran/Tar easily.

If you want logs of 50/50 or matchup based games just go to the wcop final thread (don't look at mine btw that game goes either way when we both play well).

Reading this I can't help but to think that that's a problem with the tournament format and not with weather teams itself. Bad matchups with random teams is one thing, but counter-teaming? That's a whole other matter. I feel that if everyone in a tournament tried to build teams like Rem's, that were designed to face off as many threats at once rather than tried to counter-team their opponent that you'd have a much less match-up based meta.

I think that myself and others have already properly explained the negative impact on the variety on the ladder that banning weather would have, so I'm suggesting that maybe the tournament issue is best solved by other means than banning weather? I mean, if you can find a way to prevent counter-teaming then that *should* solve the problem right then and there, unless I'm missing something.

So that's the one question I need answered; can the issue with team matchup in tournaments be solved WITHOUT banning things for everyone? If the answer is yes then I think the two issues (whether to ban weather or not and team matchup in tournaments) should be treated completely separately and the tournament talk can be taken somewhere else since it theoretically wouldn't have a place in this thread anymore.

 

[Lavos]

Reading this I can't help but to think that that's a problem with the tournament format and not with weather teams itself. Bad matchups with random teams is one thing, but counter-teaming? That's a whole other matter. I feel that if everyone in a tournament tried to build teams like Rem's, that were designed to face off as many threats at once rather than tried to counter-team their opponent that you'd have a much less match-up based meta.

I think that myself and others have already properly explained the negative impact on the variety on the ladder that banning weather would have, so I'm suggesting that maybe the tournament issue is best solved by other means than banning weather? I mean, if you can find a way to prevent counter-teaming then that *should* solve the problem right then and there, unless I'm missing something.

So that's the one question I need answered; can the issue with team matchup in tournaments be solved WITHOUT banning things for everyone? If the answer is yes then I think the two issues (whether to ban weather or not and team matchup in tournaments) should be treated completely separately and the tournament talk can be taken somewhere else since it theoretically wouldn't have a place in this thread anymore.

The only way you're going to make 99% of the competitive Pokemon community from building extremely matchup-prone teams is by banning all the stuff that creates team matchup, i.e. weather, Deoxys-D, and the rest of the unbearably broken stuff.

As yee stated, if you want really great examples of team matchup deciding the entire game before it even began, I'd like to direct you to the WCoP finals thread. About 5, maybe 6, of the 7 battles played were decided by team matchup. Take my battle, for example. I brought Dugtrio sun, BKC brought balanced Tyranitar sand. He didn't have a chance - his team was extremely Volcarona weak and didn't have a reliable answer to Dugtrio + Ninetales in general. That wasn't his fault, because all teams in the current metagame are weak to something or other, he just happened to get unlucky. When we battled, I can say with complete honesty that I was outplayed on the majority of the turns, but I still won due to sheer luck of team matchup. That's a horrible way to win, and it's also a horrible way for a metagame to function. The only games in that finals that weren't decided by team matchup were yee vs. thatsjustpeachy (though yee was very virizion weak) and Bloo vs. IFM (to an extent, but Bloo had the upper hand imo).

I went 5-1 in that tournament. I won 4 games to team matchup, and lost 1 game to team matchup. That's just not right. The only real game I had was against lucasky in prelims, and it was actually fun and both of us agreed afterwards that we had played a good match. That doesn't happen often nowadays. Fix BW OU, please. I want to have games like the one I played against lucasky.

 

[PttP]

i am sorry but this is just getting ridiculous

first of all stop separating between tourney players and the likes, its horribly stupid and makes you look like a douche

secondly, 5th gen is more dependent on team matchups than 4th gen. this i will concede because there are more threats to account for. to say that the whole game is dependent on the team matchup is stupid. everyone is going to be weak to something, but if you are straight up obliterated by one thing that is your fault. being weak to something is not the same as getting caught with your pants around your ankles when you see that certain something. let me just take lavos's example and show how ridiculous it is

"Take my battle, for example. I brought Dugtrio sun, BKC brought balanced Tyranitar sand. He didn't have a chance - his team was extremely Volcarona weak and didn't have a reliable answer to Dugtrio + Ninetales in general. That wasn't his fault, because all teams in the current metagame are weak to something or other, he just happened to get unlucky."

are you seriously telling me that it is not his fault for being "extremely volcarona weak"? last time i checked volcarona is a top tier ou pokemon. its not one of those threats you dont account for like vaporean. if you make a volcarona weak team, you should be praising the lord when you enter a battle and your opponent doesnt have volcarona. you are just playing with fire at that point and if you are too stubborn to change your team at least check volcarona, thats entirely your fault. you can even stick a random ass terrakion on your team and youd be good to go. being weak to dugtrio + ninetails is also completely his fault. if it doesnt cross his mind that a ninetailes will be paired with a dugtrio, then i question his battling ability.

"I ran Rem's team a lot in tests/games during wcop which was Balloon Tran / Skarm / Jelli / CB Nite / Specs Latios / Scarf Tar. That's one of the least matchup prone teams I ever used, troubled by Skarm + Voltturn but it happened to beat standard sun for free"

thats how you fucking build a team then. dont go around bitching that you cant make this type of team all the time. this is the type of team a player strives for. it is troubled by skarm + voltturn but is it "extremely weak"? no, because the person who builds the team is willing to account for multiple threats.

fucking ridiculous, learn how to build a team

 

[Ricky Horror]

i am sorry but this is just getting ridiculous

first of all stop separating between tourney players and the likes, its horribly stupid and makes you look like a douche

secondly, 5th gen is more dependent on team matchups than 4th gen. this i will concede because there are more threats to account for. to say that the whole game is dependent on the team matchup is stupid. everyone is going to be weak to something, but if you are straight up obliterated by one thing that is your fault. being weak to something is not the same as getting caught with your pants around your ankles when you see that certain something. let me just take lavos's example and show how ridiculous it is

"Take my battle, for example. I brought Dugtrio sun, BKC brought balanced Tyranitar sand. He didn't have a chance - his team was extremely Volcarona weak and didn't have a reliable answer to Dugtrio + Ninetales in general. That wasn't his fault, because all teams in the current metagame are weak to something or other, he just happened to get unlucky."

are you seriously telling me that it is not his fault for being "extremely volcarona weak"? last time i checked volcarona is a top tier ou pokemon. its not one of those threats you dont account for like vaporean. if you make a volcarona weak team, you should be praising the lord when you enter a battle and your opponent doesnt have volcarona. you are just playing with fire at that point and if you are too stubborn to change your team at least check volcarona, thats entirely your fault. you can even stick a random ass terrakion on your team and youd be good to go. being weak to dugtrio + ninetails is also completely his fault. if it doesnt cross his mind that a ninetailes will be paired with a dugtrio, then i question his battling ability.

"I ran Rem's team a lot in tests/games during wcop which was Balloon Tran / Skarm / Jelli / CB Nite / Specs Latios / Scarf Tar. That's one of the least matchup prone teams I ever used, troubled by Skarm + Voltturn but it happened to beat standard sun for free"

thats how you fucking build a team then. dont go around bitching that you cant make this type of team all the time. this is the type of team a player strives for. it is troubled by skarm + voltturn but is it "extremely weak"? no, because the person who builds the team is willing to account for multiple threats.

fucking ridiculous, learn how to build a team

You really think six slots is enough to counter/check everything in OU every set that each Pokemon carries, unorthodox sets, and UU/below tier Pokemon played in OU. It's highly unlikely you'll build such a team, and if so that doesn't leave much room for creativity. Players shouldn't have to run counter to everything out there and honestly no one does. Pushing words like yea you should of brought a counter for this and that, well what happens if there's simply no room left and that's when skill and luck come to play.

Edit: yea this has gone from suspect discussion to team match up/preview which I find irrelevant.

 

[alexwolf]

Yeah this ''tournament way of playing'' talk is starting to get a bit ridiculous. We have started talking about counter teaming, and about teams that are very weak to certain POPULAR strategies, and when they lose from such strategies, it is for some strange reason the metagames fault.

As seen from most good ladder teams, there are MANY succesful teams, that can handle most major threats with one way or another, and this is a testament of how everything can be covered with careful team bulding, if you don't want games decided by match-ups so much. I have also seen many tourney teams that were very balanced all around, meaning that they has a solution for almost every major threat. If some players that play tours, like to play with teams that have a big risk-big reward thing going for them, then it is their choice, and it is only normal that many of their battles will be match-up based.

Oh and about sun, since many have been talking about how broken the standard BW2 team is. More stall teams should use Shed Shell Heatran right now, which is a death sentence for such teams. Some times i am confused of how obvious a solution is to a problem, but yet noone choses that solution. What is the main reason that Sun teams are such a pain to deal with guys? The trapping of Dugtrio, that is further enhanced by all the Volt-turn stuff going around. Without Dugtrio, there would be no easy trap and kill Ttar, no easy trap and kill Heatran (you could still use lures, such as EQ Venusuar, but this is another concept) and no easy trap and kill Terrakion. So seeing as so many sun teams, waste 2 to 3 team slots just to make sure that their weather stays up and that some pokes go down (Heatran and Terrakion) in order for some sun sweepers to sweep (Volcarona and Venusuar), through the use of 1-2 trappers and the support of a few Volt-turners, why not simply use Shed Shell on one of those important mons?

Another good poke, that destroyes itself so many sun teams, it isn't even funny, is CurseLax with Curse, Return, EQ and Rest. Just go and check the most popular sun teams, and you will see that CurseLax can sweep through most of them, with only a little support, while also walling most of them. So this is a solution to all your sun problems for one weatherless team, in just one slot! Hard to do? I don't think so.

Imo there are a lot of viable ways to compete against the ''best'' strategies right now, but people just can't think outside of the box, and wait from the top players to show them what to use and what is succesful. They expect to see a new threat rise after a tourney ends, when they see a good player using it... Why not try yourself some new and fresh ideas? Standard will always be good and strong, and this is why it is standard, but then it becomes predictable, and you can abuse that...! So if you think that the meta you are playing is predictable, then break that boring pattern, which you have seen used so many times, by using something that can male most standard teams sweat when playing against it. Stop thinking ''ban'', and start thinking ''solutions'' and ''creativity''!

EDIT: Oh and i also forget another huge pain in the ass for Sun teams: SpD Hippo. This beast can hold its own against such teams, not giving a shit about Dugtrio and being able to even switch right into most Chloro sweepers so that they lose their speed boost and get easily walled or revenge killed in Sand. For example SpD Hippowedon can switch into both Venusaur and Victreebel, not taking more than 70% from any of their attacks, whille the next turn, you can easily bring in your Dragon type or your Jirachi to wall them and kill them. Yeah i know that 70% is too much, but you should consider the fact that these 2 pokes (Venusaur and Victreebel) are late game sweepers, which means that if you stop them once, it is pretty much over for them.

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

alexwolf, to be honest when you brought up CurseLax as a sun team counter, I quit reading your post. Okay, CurseLax might do well against sun teams, but does that make it good? No. In addition, using CurseLax makes your team weaker to Gengar. Even if you decide to use Crunch, Gengar can stop this by going for a Sub to scout your coverage move and disabling Crunch. Also, Shed Shell Heatran does indeed make the lives of standard sun teams difficult, but I think that's just more proof of team matchup. In addition, if Shed Shell Heatran actually catches on, all that will happen is more people will use Earthquake Venusaur. There will always be battles decided by team matchup in this metagame, stop acting like there won't be. In fact, with my Deo-D offense teams, I'm pretty sure 99% of my battles are decided by team matchup. In addition, weatherless teams tend to be Sun weak, and all battles I had with sun teams against weatherless teams were basically just complete team matchup.

 

[Skore]

alexwolf, to be honest when you brought up CurseLax as a sun team counter, I quit reading your post. Okay, CurseLax might do well against sun teams, but does that make it good? No. In addition, using CurseLax makes your team weaker to Gengar. Even if you decide to use Crunch, Gengar can stop this by going for a Sub to scout your coverage move and disabling Crunch. Also, Shed Shell Heatran does indeed make the lives of standard sun teams difficult, but I think that's just more proof of team matchup. In addition, if Shed Shell Heatran actually catches on, all that will happen is more people will use Earthquake Venusaur. There will always be battles decided by team matchup in this metagame, stop acting like there won't be. In fact, with my Deo-D offense teams, I'm pretty sure 99% of my battles are decided by team matchup. (In addition, weatherless teams tend to be Sun weak)

One day Chandelure will get it's DW ability. Get used to the idea of Shed Shell.

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

One day Chandelure will get it's DW ability. Get used to the idea of Shed Shell.

This is Shed Shell Heatran in question, nothing else. It's not like ST Chandelure can effectively trap non-Choiced Heatran in the first place. Just saying. Also, that day when Chandelure gets its DW ability is not today. And nowhere in my post did I say I was opposed to use of Shed Shell. So, I truly don't understand the significance of your post.

 

[alexwolf]

alexwolf, to be honest when you brought up CurseLax as a sun team counter, I quit reading your post. Okay, CurseLax might do well against sun teams, but does that make it good? No. In addition, using CurseLax makes your team weaker to Gengar. Even if you decide to use Crunch, Gengar can stop this by going for a Sub to scout your coverage move and disabling Crunch. Also, Shed Shell Heatran does indeed make the lives of standard sun teams difficult, but I think that's just more proof of team matchup. In addition, if Shed Shell Heatran actually catches on, all that will happen is more people will use Earthquake Venusaur. There will always be battles decided by team matchup in this metagame, stop acting like there won't be. In fact, with my Deo-D offense teams, I'm pretty sure 99% of my battles are decided by team matchup. In addition, weatherless teams tend to be Sun weak, and all battles I had with sun teams against weatherless teams were basically just complete team matchup.

If CurseLax is able to counter the best strategy in the meta right now, then of 'course it is good. It's the same concept with Gastrodon becoming OU because of rain teams and Dugtrio becoming OU because of the weather wars. It's not like Snorlax does nothing outside of its niche (countering sun teams). It is just that whatever he does, meaning walling special attackers and being a hard hitter, is mostly outclassed by pokes such as Ttar, Blissey and Chansey. But guess what is that Snorlax can do that the others can't? Yeah you guessed right, counter the best (or one of the best) strategy in the meta right now, and this is a reason to use him if you are tired of complaining about how ridiculous it is to face a standard sun team.

Finally i never said that good teams are unaffected by team match-up, but that good teams can overcome the handicap of team matchup with good playing (not insanely good playing). You will always be weak to something and strong against something, the point is how much strong and how much weak, and this is up to you to choose. If you want teams that fare very well against some teams, but at the same time fare very bad against others, then go ahead. But don't complain when you will be losing games because of poor team match-up.

 

[Arcticblast]

You guys are going to hate me for this, but I personally think that Volcarona is broken. Now before you cry out "BUT STEALTH ROCK!!!!!" hear me out.

Bug/Fire
Base Stats: 85 HP | 60 Atk | 65 Def | 135 SpA | 105 SpD | 100 Spe
The set I'm going to focus on:
Volcarona @ Lum Berry
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Quiver Dance
- Fire Blast
- Bug Buzz
- Hidden Power [Ground]

With a movepool that includes the incredible Quiver Dance and a veritable nuke in STAB Fire Blast, this would normally scream broken, and would likely have been banned a long time ago if not for Stealth Rock. But does Stealth Rock really cripple it that much? The answer to this is no. So what if Volcarona just took 50% switching in? It just forced your low-HP Ferrothorn out and set up a Quiver Dance. Think you can take it with your Blissey? Say hello to Ninetales - Volcarona's +1 Fire Blast in the sun is doing 40.49 - 47.85% to your precious Blissey. Want to wall it with Heatran? Hidden Power Ground called, it wants its sweep back. Beat it with Salamence or Gyarados? Oh look, they get mauled by Stealth Rock+Fire Blast in the sun. Dragonite? Only checks Volcarona if it can keep Multiscale intact, as Fire Blast destroys it otherwise. Jellicent? Fire Blast 2HKOs in the sun and Scald doesn't do anything in return. If your wall can't do anything back, it'll just set up another Quiver Dance and laugh at you. What about that status inducer? Think they can tank a hit and status it? Say hello to Lum Berry.

Look, Volcarona is so strong it's practically silly. On countless teams I've made, I've had to carry one of Choice Scarf Landorus, Scarf Infernape or Scarf Terrakion just to stop it before it can do any real damage. I even used a damn Stone Edge Heatran once. Rain doesn't check it unless you're carrying a specialized check that can beat Volcarona in Rain - which I've done. My point is, if a team doesn't carry some sort of check to Volcarona, it is liable to be destroyed by Volcarona if you can't keep momentum up - which can be quite hard against offensive teams where Volcarona thrives. Volcarona has no true counters. I played with it again today on a weatherless team, and this thing is sweeping teams like nobody's business.

I probably made a bunch of mistakes and may have exaggerated a bit, but my point stands that Volcarona is ridiculously broken.

I might add more to this post later.
Supporting posts:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4380167&postcount=115
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4379862&postcount=90

 

[Ricky Horror]

You guys are going to hate me for this, but I personally think that Volcarona is broken. Now before you cry out "BUT STEALTH ROCK!!!!!" hear me out.

Bug/Fire
Base Stats: 85 HP | 60 Atk | 65 Def | 135 SpA | 105 SpD | 100 Spe
The set I'm going to focus on:
Volcarona @ Lum Berry
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Quiver Dance
- Fire Blast
- Bug Buzz
- Hidden Power [Ground]

With a movepool that includes the incredible Quiver Dance and a veritable nuke in STAB Fire Blast, this would normally scream broken, and would likely have been banned a long time ago if not for Stealth Rock. But does Stealth Rock really cripple it that much? The answer to this is no. So what if Volcarona just took 50% switching in? It just forced your low-HP Ferrothorn out and set up a Quiver Dance. Think you can take it with your Blissey? Say hello to Ninetales - Volcarona's +1 Fire Blast in the sun is doing 40.49 - 47.85% to your precious Blissey. Want to wall it with Heatran? Hidden Power Ground called, it wants its sweep back. Beat it with Salamence or Gyarados? Oh look, they get mauled by Stealth Rock+Fire Blast in the sun. Jellicent? Fire Blast 2HKOs in the sun and Scald doesn't do anything in return. If your wall can't do anything back, it'll just set up another Quiver Dance and laugh at you. What about that status inducer? Think they can tank a hit and status it? Say hello to Lum Berry.

Look, Volcarona is so strong it's practically silly. On countless teams I've made, I've had to carry one of Choice Scarf Landorus, Scarf Infernape or Scarf Terrakion just to stop it before it can do any real damage. I even used a damn Stone Edge Heatran once. Rain doesn't check it unless you're carrying a specialized check that can beat Volcarona in Rain - which I've done. My point is, if a team doesn't carry some sort of check to Volcarona, it is liable to be destroyed by Volcarona if you can't keep momentum up - which can be quite hard against offensive teams where Volcarona thrives. Volcarona has no true counters. I played with it again today on a weatherless team, and this thing is sweeping teams like nobody's business.

I probably made a bunch of mistakes and may have exaggerated a bit, but my point stands that Volcarona is ridiculously broken.

I might add more to this post later.

There's still the fact that there's plenty of the OU force that resists its stabs or/is bulky enough to tank HP whatever. Dragonite,Terrakion,Jellicent,Heatran, and even Infernape can come in on unboosted Volcaronas and stone edge away.

 

[GatoDelFuego]

I can't tell if you're serious or not. If you are being sarcastic, then I'm going to look extremely stupid.

Look, something like volcarona is supposed to have counters. The fact that blissey is not able to stop a special sweeper is kind of ridiculous. Volcarona IS ridiculously broken, and the fact that stealth rock, listed in the analysis as the BEST way to take down volcarona, won't even help in a case like this. Volcarona is broken. People think that Tornadus-t is the equivalent of this set in the rain. I think similarly of Keldeo. All of these are just as broken as Volcarona. So is half of OU. Are we afraid to admit it? Yes, we are. There is too much to prepare for nowadays and too many nuclear weapons that just get chucked between each side. Either we leave everything how it is and wait for the game to tear itself apart, or we admit that the only way we can have a "stable" metagame is to bring down the banhammer and send 5 or 6+ pokes to ubers. I don't think anyone really wants this to happen, because there is a certain enjoyment of playing with such power, but nobody better come out and tell me the game is stable right now. It might be many things, but it sure as HELL is not stable.

 

[Arcticblast]

I mentioned Terrakion, Infernape and Heatran (only if it has Stone Edge!) as checks to Volcarona. In fact, I covered all of the Pokemon you mentioned (except Dragonite, but Dragonite can be taken on by most of the metagame - a check regardless). The fact remains that Volcarona's checks are relatively few and far between, with a select few Pokemon shining above the rest and a few that can handle certain versions of Volcarona but not others.

Gato, I'm serious here, don't worry.

 

[Ricky Horror]

I can't tell if you're serious or not. If you are being sarcastic, then I'm going to look extremely stupid.

Look, something like volcarona is supposed to have counters. The fact that blissey is not able to stop a special sweeper is kind of ridiculous. Volcarona IS ridiculously broken, and the fact that stealth rock, listed in the analysis as the BEST way to take down volcarona, won't even help in a case like this. Volcarona is broken. People think that Tornadus-t is the equivalent of this set in the rain. I think similarly of Keldeo. All of these are just as broken as Volcarona. So is half of OU. Are we afraid to admit it? Yes, we are. There is too much to prepare for nowadays and too many nuclear weapons that just get chucked between each side. Either we leave everything how it is and wait for the game to tear itself apart, or we admit that the only way we can have a "stable" metagame is to bring down the banhammer and send 5 or 6+ pokes to ubers. I don't think anyone really wants this to happen, because there is a certain enjoyment of playing with such power, but nobody better come out and tell me the game is stable right now. It might be many things, but it sure as HELL is not stable.

Blissey can toxic stall it, especially if it carries especially if runs Lum over LO. It won't be doing much unless it's in sun.

 

[Lavos]

Excadrill got checked by a ton of stuff, look where it is now. Not saying Volcarona is broken by any means, just pointing out that number/usage of checks/counters is not necessarily indicative of whether a Pokemon is broken or not.

 

[GatoDelFuego]

I thought sun was the assumed weather in question. If sun is up, how are you going to counter it? Sun gives so many exponential boosts to things like volcarona, and so many, many more. CurseLax? Did you know that CB darmanitan OHKO's VAPOREON. Yeah, vaporeon, one of the bulkiest of bulky waters, something with a resistance, in the sun. Without the water typing, snorlax will be taking twice as much damage as vaporeon. I don't think it's going to be surviving.

 

[GatoDelFuego]

Excadrill got checked by a ton of stuff, look where it is now. Not saying Volcarona is broken by any means, just pointing out that number/usage of checks/counters is not necessarily indicative of whether a Pokemon is broken or not.

This. It doesn't matter if something isn't used as much as other things, if it's broken it's broken. End of story. Not just talking about Volcarona, here.

Sorry for the double post.

 

[Boondocker]

You really think six slots is enough to counter/check everything in OU every set that each Pokemon carries, unorthodox sets, and UU/below tier Pokemon played in OU.

Yes i do think 6 slots is more then enough to cover everything. One Trick user and 1 fast scarfer will check 99.9% of the threats in the metagame. Hell, Thunderwave/Encore Alakazam himself checks a vast majority of sweepers if you dont want to use a scarf. Oh and Gamefreak provided you with Ditto if you want a catch-all for sweepers.

 

[Lavos]

Yes i do think 6 slots is more then enough to cover everything. One Trick user and 1 fast scarfer will check 99.9% of the threats in the metagame. Hell, Thunderwave/Encore Alakazam himself checks a vast majority of sweepers if you dont want to use a scarf. Oh and Gamefreak provided you with Ditto if you want a catch-all for sweepers.

You can't beat every single threat the metagame has to offer with 6 Pokemon. It is literally impossible. If you would like to volunteer a team that you believe beats every threat in OU, I will be more than happy to critique it for you. I have tried to create a team that does this multiple times, and in every instance I have failed. Until I see a team that actually does beat every single OU threat, I will continue to contend that even the best team out there, unfortunately, cannot counter everything.

 

[FrostFire]

Look, I won't argue that volcarona is a force to be reckoned with under sun - but that's just it right there.
"under sun."

I mean, isn't everyone and their brother complaining about rain right now? Heck, even in BW1, both rain and sand were generally the 'best' weathers to win the weather wars. Sun has always been a bit of a tricky weather to get just right - not that it's not doable - it's just harder.

Anyway, so if sun isn't up, then Volc loses a lot of killing power - without sun, it won't be getting past Blissey and Chansey anytime soon (oh, and also: Fiery Dance> Fire Blast). Furthermore, if rain is up - which it so often is these days - then Volc's fire attacks get nerfed.

So, not only is there this difficulty of keeping sun up plus the threat of rain, but we also have Volcarona's x4 SR weakness. What this means is that Volcarona can't just switch in whenever when SR is up; after it loses 50% of it's HP switching in, it can get KO'd by a relatively decent attack. What's more, it's still susceptible to both Spikes and Toxic Spikes as well; and, while these are only found on more stall oriented teams, it can nevertheless make Volc's life a nightmare.

So, to summarise what I'm trying to get across:

>Volcarona is a great pokemon, BUT
> It is somewhat reliant on sun to function at it's best
> It is heavily reliant on rain being removed (Exception: Rain/ Hurricane volcarona)
> It is heavily reliant on Stealth Rock being removed via Rapid Spinners

Finally, if these points are met, then certain counters such as Heatran (HP Ground isn't really common), Dragonite, Scarf Terrakion and the Pink blobs have to be removed before you can really think about sweeping. Additionally, it must also find a 'safe' pokemon to set up that first Quiver Dance against - i.e., you're not going to be able to set up against highly common pokes such as Tornadus-T and Politoed.

So, not broken. Not broken at all.

For the record, I also don't think that Tornadus-T is broken (as there's been discussion), but this post is long enough, so I'll post on that later.

 

[Jukain]

You guys are going to hate me for this, but I personally think that Volcarona is broken. Now before you cry out "BUT STEALTH ROCK!!!!!" hear me out.

Bug/Fire
Base Stats: 85 HP | 60 Atk | 65 Def | 135 SpA | 105 SpD | 100 Spe
The set I'm going to focus on:
Volcarona @ Lum Berry
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Quiver Dance
- Fire Blast
- Bug Buzz
- Hidden Power [Ground]

With a movepool that includes the incredible Quiver Dance and a veritable nuke in STAB Fire Blast, this would normally scream broken, and would likely have been banned a long time ago if not for Stealth Rock. But does Stealth Rock really cripple it that much? The answer to this is no. So what if Volcarona just took 50% switching in? It just forced your low-HP Ferrothorn out and set up a Quiver Dance. Think you can take it with your Blissey? Say hello to Ninetales - Volcarona's +1 Fire Blast in the sun is doing 40.49 - 47.85% to your precious Blissey. Want to wall it with Heatran? Hidden Power Ground called, it wants its sweep back. Beat it with Salamence or Gyarados? Oh look, they get mauled by Stealth Rock+Fire Blast in the sun. Dragonite? Only checks Volcarona if it can keep Multiscale intact, as Fire Blast destroys it otherwise. Jellicent? Fire Blast 2HKOs in the sun and Scald doesn't do anything in return. If your wall can't do anything back, it'll just set up another Quiver Dance and laugh at you. What about that status inducer? Think they can tank a hit and status it? Say hello to Lum Berry.

Look, Volcarona is so strong it's practically silly. On countless teams I've made, I've had to carry one of Choice Scarf Landorus, Scarf Infernape or Scarf Terrakion just to stop it before it can do any real damage. I even used a damn Stone Edge Heatran once. Rain doesn't check it unless you're carrying a specialized check that can beat Volcarona in Rain - which I've done. My point is, if a team doesn't carry some sort of check to Volcarona, it is liable to be destroyed by Volcarona if you can't keep momentum up - which can be quite hard against offensive teams where Volcarona thrives. Volcarona has no true counters. I played with it again today on a weatherless team, and this thing is sweeping teams like nobody's business.

I probably made a bunch of mistakes and may have exaggerated a bit, but my point stands that Volcarona is ridiculously broken.

I might add more to this post later.

For Heatran, doesn't a random HP Rock do enough?

 

[android]

I thought sun was the assumed weather in question. If sun is up, how are you going to counter it? Sun gives so many exponential boosts to things like volcarona, and so many, many more. CurseLax? Did you know that CB darmanitan OHKO's VAPOREON. Yeah, vaporeon, one of the bulkiest of bulky waters, something with a resistance, in the sun. Without the water typing, snorlax will be taking twice as much damage as vaporeon. I don't think it's going to be surviving.

Snorlax always runs Thick Fat. That's the reason why it does well against sun. Snorlax takes big time damage from a sun boosted Flare Blitz (like 60-70%) but it isn't OHKOed. Darmanitan isn't very popular anyway. Volcarona on the other hand, can be stopped by Snorlax much more easily.

For Heatran, doesn't a random HP Rock do enough?

After a Quiver Dance I don't think that will do much to Volcarona. Hitting it's low unboosted Defense is a better approach.

 

[alexwolf]

I thought sun was the assumed weather in question. If sun is up, how are you going to counter it? Sun gives so many exponential boosts to things like volcarona, and so many, many more. CurseLax? Did you know that CB darmanitan OHKO's VAPOREON. Yeah, vaporeon, one of the bulkiest of bulky waters, something with a resistance, in the sun. Without the water typing, snorlax will be taking twice as much damage as vaporeon. I don't think it's going to be surviving.

First of all, even Adamant CB Darm can't ohko Vaporeon, as it does 83% damage max. Just to clarify... There is also the fact that LO Darmanitan is better than CB, and it manages to do 72% max to Vaporeon. Again just clarifying, not implying anything. Finally Scarf Darmanitan is the most used variant in OU, and for good reason, as it is the best, and CB/LO Darm is quite rare. CB Victini in the other hand isn't, because it can actually check Volcarona at +1, which is huge for sun teams, while also having Fusion Bolt for Politoed, and a recoil-free almost as strong as Flare Blitz attack. And it sits at a better speed tier, while also having wayyy better bulk..

Also you are forgetting the main selling point of Snorlax, Thick Fat. This makes it a nightmare for Sun teams to face, and after 1 boost, nothing commonly found on Sun teams, except from CB Terrakion, can ohko Snorlax.

 

[Arcticblast]

I lost most of what I wrote when I accidentally hit Back, so I'll try to summarize.

Look, I won't argue that volcarona is a force to be reckoned with under sun - but that's just it right there.
"under sun."

I mean, isn't everyone and their brother complaining about rain right now? Heck, even in BW1, both rain and sand were generally the 'best' weathers to win the weather wars. Sun has always been a bit of a tricky weather to get just right - not that it's not doable - it's just harder.

Anyway, so if sun isn't up, then Volc loses a lot of killing power - without sun, it won't be getting past Blissey and Chansey anytime soon (oh, and also: Fiery Dance> Fire Blast Fire Blast get more KOs, making it better on offensive Volcarona. Defensive Volcarona prefers the consistency of Fire Blast though.). Furthermore, if rain is up - which it so often is these days - then Volc's fire attacks get nerfed.

Hurricane Volcarona is a testament to the fact that even Rain can't stop this monster. Fire Blast still has 90 base power in the rain after STAB. In addition, jc104's post shows just how good Sun is.

I run Volcarona on a weatherless team because trying to build a Sun team around it proved to be a bit difficult.

So, not only is there this difficulty of keeping sun up plus the threat of rain, but we also have Volcarona's x4 SR weakness. What this means is that Volcarona can't just switch in whenever when SR is up; after it loses 50% of it's HP switching in, it can get KO'd by a relatively decent attack. What's more, it's still susceptible to both Spikes and Toxic Spikes as well; and, while these are only found on more stall oriented teams, it can nevertheless make Volc's life a nightmare.

A Volcarona at 50% health is just as threatening as one at 100% health. It still sets up on weakened Pokemon that can't do enough to it and it still resist the three most common priority moves in OU.

So, to summarise what I'm trying to get across:

>Volcarona is a great pokemon, BUT
> It is somewhat reliant on sun to function at it's best I'll give you that
> It is heavily reliant on rain being removed (Exception: Rain/ Hurricane volcarona) Not entirely true - it's still a monster in Rain but prefers it gone
> It is heavily reliant on Stealth Rock being removed via Rapid Spinners Not true

Finally, if these points are met, then certain counters such as Heatran (HP Ground isn't really common) I emphasized the HP Ground set in my post, as it's often the better option, Dragonite Okay, it's a nice check but not too hard to take out with other team members, Scarf Terrakion see Dragonite and the Pink blobs easy to take out have to be removed before you can really think about sweeping. Additionally, it must also find a 'safe' pokemon to set up that first Quiver Dance against - i.e., you're not going to be able to set up against highly common pokes such as Tornadus-T and Politoed It can afford to set up against defensive Politoed in a tight situation, but it loses to ScarfToed and SpecsToed.

So, not broken. Not broken at all. Yes, it is broken.

Also, pokemon0078, HP Rock is still effective, but Heatran doesn't threaten Volcarona after it boosts so Volcarona can boost again, somewhat neutering HP Rock.

alexwolf, Victini can't really switch in to offensive Volcarona, as +1 Volcarona does upwards of 80% with all of its moves and has a 37.5% chance to OHKO with a super effective Hidden Power. That V-Create destroys Volcarona though.