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I don't think anyone talking about getting rid of the weathers doesn't think that sand and hail should go either, they just don't talk about them much because they are not exactly as common as Rain/sun offense.
If I had my way, I would ban the auto-inducing abilities, and see how those pokemon make it up on their own. The thing about politoed and ninetales is they're just complete garbage, honestly, you would never ever in a thousand years see one of them without their abilities. It's as if every pokemon that got stealth rock was banned, except magikarp (hypothetically let's just say it gets SR) people would use it just for SR. OK, maybe that's a bit of an exaggeration, but people will use Ninetales and Politoed for no reason but to get their preferred weather and check the other ones. They're not OU worthy without their abilities, which support so many things as everyone has already said.
Danger Mouse, of course there isn't one team that auto-wins against everything. The issue is that the different team archetypes have such a brutal advantage against some and such a brutal disadvantage against others [examples: sand stall rapes rain offense, Deo-D offense rapes stall, sun offense rapes Deo-D offense] that games are being decided based on what style of play a player chose and not based on who played a better game. I don't buy the "weathers balance each other out" argument because this isn't ubers, we don't need to keep broken things in OU to check other broken things.
Ojama, I don't support banning Rain + Sun and leaving Sand simply because I prefer Sand; in an ideal world of mine, there is no permanent weather whatsoever. However, the reason I'm supporting an immediate Rain + Sun ban is because Sand does not present as immediate a problem as those two do, although I do agree that Landorus-I / Terrakion are ridiculous and eventually I'd like to get rid of Sand as well, but Rain + Sun is what I think needs to go right now. Once we've done that, we'll have taken a huge step in making the metagame more competitive and we can work from there.
I don't know - I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree, because I just don't see things that way. The nature of the metagame will always make certain strategies less viable, and the fact of the matter is that stall isn't killed by Deoxys-D, it's just power creep in general. Things hit harder and faster than they used to, and full stall has trouble keeping up with that. As for Deoxys being broken, why is it used less than every other hazard setter in OU if it's so broken? Again, I'm not arguing that something with low usage can't be broken. However, I'm honestly asking here: if Deo-D is so good, why don't people use it more? I use it myself, and I find it very effective, but I think Forretress is (IMO) better overall, especially because it gets Sturdy.
Actually, looking at the recent stats, Deoxys is only behind ferrothorn and .2% behind forretress in the lead spot. If you're not using Deoxys in the lead spot, then it's being used wrong. I don't think it's really taken off yet, and I only started seeing it a lot in the 2nd half of august, I'm sure that september will have it used a whole lot more.
@Eo Ut Mortus: What about Tickle+Pursuit? How are you supposed to save your walls from that? You can't just not use them. This also applies to revenge killers like Landorus. If you can't use EQ (or any other attack since the rest are just weaker coverage moves) to revenge kill a threat what good is it on your team? You might as well consider it dead the minute Fett shows up out of team preview. Even if you only need it to revenge kill once, you still have to make sure your opponent doesn't predict the near obvious attack and bring Fett in to take it out, saving that dangerous sweeper for later. (Which Fett can conveniently help set up) That's the main problem with Wobbufett, it can take apart a team by removing the one or two Pokemon that would stop you from sweeping. Being able to buy an easy turn of set up is just a bonus.
Yes, I did ignore U-Turn on Landorus since not every revenge killer has that move. Even those that do become pretty useless with Fett forcing them to use only that move. I doubt anybody has good enough prediction to be able to use one of its other moves without killing anything or having a Wobbufett come in. It only takes one screw up to lose your Pokemon.
I feel sleep as a status has never been given enough scrutiny ever since the mechanics were changed for the new gen. In dpp, you could successfully sneak in opportunities to waste sleep turns and while annoying it was .... manageable. Now, I've played too many games where my status absorber is gone and at that point spore is like an automatic ko, or i'm literally praying for a one or two turn wakeup a few turns later. If i'm not mistaken, official tournaments have no such thing as a sleep clause, and its not implemented in the cartridge in any way so that a player loses for putting multiple pokemon to sleep. So now we have deliberations on what would be the best way to implement said clause that doesn't exist in the original programming. I'd rather it just go the way of double team/minimize at this point.
I've also never been a fan of stealth rock, a one turn setup move that a plethora of varying types of pokemon can have access to and keeps arguably a higher number of otherwise viable and interesting archetypes out of the meta. Spikes takes time and toxic spikes less so but is hard countered for choosing to run a grounded poison on your team I'm not too adamant about testing a lack of stealth rock presence though, as I understand some things would arguably reek havoc with a guaranteed preserved sash.
I know my post is making people's blood boil at this point, so I may as well throw hidden power on the pyre as well. I find it infuriating that people are throwing random hp ice/grass/randomass4xeffective moves on pokemon that would otherwise be hard countered. Landorus-i for instance, wouldn't be the threat it was without hp ice, which makes me think there's an intended reason he doesn't have an ice move in his move pool in the first place. But besides nagging, I hate just how random it can be to go up against someone and find out there frigging forretress is running ice hidden power just to bait in one specific mon they couldn't effectively build their team to withstand otherwise.
BKC & yee trying to be a master mind of propaganda with their unfounded claims or just a bad troll??? I'll be very disappointed if you guys really believe what you guys are saying
As Haunter has mentioned - team match up argument is utter b/s so I would stop spouting this. Your "evidence" shows none of this "flagrant pre-game luck" that you guys are rallying against.
Funkasauros vs Bluewind - a sand vs rain match up. Bluewind was outplayed and lost key conditions to win the match Specs Politoed and Specs Starmie. All he needed was to remove Funkasauros's Jellicent and Specs Starmie goes to town. But he actually lost his Starmie turn 1 smh. Running 2 Specs Water-types is probably a bad idea in general when Starmie loves its diverse offense, which it cannot abuse due to being choice-locked. Poor team choice and battle decision on Bluewind's part - nothing to do with match-ups.
Incentive vs Blizzaroi - This is sand vs sand, so what does this have to do with banning weather in the first place? Using Volcarona in sand is pretty moronic, seeing how it transforms Terrakion into a hard-counter. Nothing to do with match-ups - just a bad team vs a better team.
willy the traitor vs wilson46 - So I guess this is evidence of Deo-D being "uber" rather than weather? Sorry, but Deoxys-D accomplished nothing more than what a sacrificial Azelf or Aerodactyl could've accomplished - I guess we should ban those, too? Poor misplay on wilson46's part for keeping Jellicent in on Gengar when he could've switched to Ttar and set up Rocks - you know, to beat volt-turn teams. Jellicent is actually quite anti-volt turn so wilson46 arguably had an advantage. Rocky Helmet Skarmory being his only answer to willy's DDNite sealed his fate. Again, a flawed team and critical misplays losing to a better team is a natural course of action.
Fried Rhys vs Randy Blythe - lol Fried Rhys's team is so Volca weak; you don't even need Sun to wipe floor with QD. Next time don't waste a pokeslot on a shitty mixed Flygon...
Drake vs BKC - not exactly sure what was so great about this match. One-sided all-round, Drake played like shit (keeping Forry in Jellicent when he had Conkeldurr and CBTar?) I fail to see what you're trying to prove with this log.
So yea, please provide evidence of team match-up resulting in an "auto-loss," not because of poorly-constructed teams or poor battling decisions.
Banning Weather to "Increase Diversity"
Weather is the diversifying force of BW OU - banning weather would only make this metagame even more centralized around few top dogs like Terrakion and Dragonite, while shafting all weather-dependent Pokemon like Stoutland, Venusaur, Toxicroak, Darmanitan, Sawsbuck, etc. Where's the beauty in that? Sounds incredibly dull and stall-centric, which is probably what you both want.
The list of mons that you listed are either not affected by weather or not going to see much usage anyways, since there are better options out there. Yes, removing the dominant threats in the game would make lives of lesser used mons easier - go play UU / RU / NU.
Also pointing out that Togekiss can kick ass in BW1, etc means that Togekiss is viable in the current OU meta, so we do not need to ban anything to "make Togekiss better" lol. Let's go through your latest list:
Mienshao / Medicham - weather is not the reason why they're underused - they're not that particularly fast and have 0 defense - they also rely on HJK to dish damage. There are better options out there.
Togekiss - still fucked by Thundurus-T and even Landorus weather or no weather. Togekiss hates Mamoswine. It's SR weak. Jirachi can actually sponge relevant special hits, like Draco Meteor, Psychic, and Hurricane.
Infernape - Rain nerfs Infernape, but you just removed Infernape's best win condition - Sun. Not to mention Latias and Latios will keep Infernape's usage low even if weather is banned.
Victini - Yes, Victini can be used outside of Sun, just like how Volcarona can be used outside of Sun. Still doesn't justify your stance of banning weather would make Victini better lol (ummm, Sun?)
Chandelure - lol see above
Gallade - If BU Gallade is effective without weather, why is it in RU?
Kingdra - you do realize that you can run Rain Dance Kingdra in the current meta without banning weather abilities lol?
Milotic - seems like you wanna play UU?
Quagsire - so how is it getting past LO Terrakion / Lucario, DD Haxorus, Virizion, Breloom etc etc? Seems like we need to remove more than weather to make Quagsire the star of OU
Slowbro - it's effective now so no need to remove weather
Tangrowth - see above, although Regen Amoonguss gives it major competition
Bronzong - Pretty mediocre choice, when there are mons like Rotom-W, Jirachi, Skarmory, etc to check similar threats while being less set-up bait.
You mentioned Tabloo (Roserade, Heatran, Gastrodon, Gengar, Skarmory, Reuniclus) but that's a pretty mediocre team with a blatant weakness to Volcarona + Dugtrio - it doesn't even have to be in the sun. Either Bloo was really lucky for not facing any Volcarona or he just simply outplayed them all.
I think the argument for banning weather / team match ups end here - y/y?
I feel as though the metagame is pretty well balanced as of now. Sure rain is a dominating force, but rain has always had a lot of great abusers. Weather should not be banned just because people don't like it. Also quit trying to ban tornadus-t. As long as stealth rock is up, regenerator is sort of nerfed and his defenses aren't that great. Jirachi is the biggest threat in the metagame right now just because it's so versatile and annoying. It isn't broken, but it's the closest thing in the current metagame.
I think the problem we have now isn't that team matchups play such an important role in who wins a game - that's obviously always going to be the case to some extent, even if we ban all of the weathers and Deo-D. As I see it, the issue is that, as the metagame stands, there are a handful of team archetypes that are head and shoulders above the others in terms of effectiveness, and these are exactly the ones that most encourage a matchup based metagame - specifically rain offense, sun offense and Deo-D offense, as BKC/yee/whoever else have been tl;dring about.
For as long as I've been playing BW, I've laughed at the idea of banning rain (I think this is the first time sun has really been brought up seriously as a candidate for banning?), as weather is part of the game, and I always found that the weather war added an extra element of strategy that I was perfectly happy with. Right now though, it's reached what I'd consider an unhealthy level of importance, partly as a result of all of the new toys rain in particular got in BW2 (which generally makes it more important to focus on guarenteeing you win the weather war asap with other weathers, and less important to make sure you can handle most of the main rain abusers relatively well), although it's hard for anyone that followed the late-BW1 tournament scene closely to deny that BW1 was starting to go this way too - BW2 has just further exaggerated the situation.
I'm far from being a high level tournament player, but I really have to agree that at this point, rain and sun are worth a test. Personally, I'm not sure I want to see them banned, as that's inevitably going to lead to Landorus, Terrakion and co becoming much more powerful, and may well end up giving us a weatherless metagame, which I'm not sure would work particularly well - I could see us just going through a huge process of finding Latios/whatever becomes the top dog broken etc, but that's all just theorymon. At the end of the day though, if we're going to be testing something, which is more than likely, I don't think even many of the pro-rain/sun users will be able to argue that they are one of the main candidates for testing. In fact, most of the other candidates I've heard mentioned are arguably broken as a direct consequence of Politoed/Ninetales.
Up until now, I've intentionally avoided making too much of a reference to Deo-D, as of the three suspects we seem to be focusing on, it's the one I'm the least sure about. Personally, I don't think Deo-D is broken. I just think it's dumb. And I know that me not liking a certain playstyle isn't an acceptable argument for something being broken. If we didn't care at all about how balanced things were and just wanted to ensure the best competitive game possible for tournament play, I'd kick Deo-D straight out, as I know I'm not alone in feeling that it's a ridiculous playstyle that requires a much lower level of skill than the other options to compete at a reasonable level. That's not what we're doing though, so I'm pretty indifferent about it.
Finally: sorry if we aren't supposed to talk about this here, but I personally think we should undo every suspect ban apart from Speed Boost Blaziken and start again, i.e. trying out what we have now, but with Manaphy, Thundurus and Excadrill. We may well end up back where we are now in a months time, but I know a lot of people agree with me that Excadrill in particular is worth a test, and at least if we end up back here, we'll have a clear idea of what the next step should be instead of constantly worrying about whether or not we should unban something. This isn't a case of "I want to abuse Excadrill" or "I think it's probably broken, but it might counter something else I consider broken, so I want it unbanned". I'm just not sure it's broken anymore, and it proving to be useful against some of the more problematic pokemon/playstyles around now could just be a nice consequence of that.
So, this post is a little bit late, but i'd like to say something about weather teams. It was stated earlier that "oh there's no reason not to use weather teams auto 50% boost speed boosts blah blah" by the party supporting banning weather. Let me ask you a question, my good friends. How many people use venusaur outside of sun, or any other chlorophyll sweeper? Or cresselia, for all you sun stall players out there? Not many? That's right. When you run weather, under that weather certain pokemon get certain boosts, but once outside of that weather, their effectiveness decreases doubly as much as it improved. (The sole exception is users of boosted fire- and water-type attacks, but i'll get to that.) Look at the above mentions of chlorophyll venusaur. If sun is up, it's a powerful sweeper. If sun is down, it's...what, exactly? Not much, really. Solarbeam users, not that there are many, also take a huge hit outside of sun. And look at rain. Outside of rain, rain dish tentacruel has protect, which is now mostly worthless. It's also got no means of healing, and weaker water attacks, which to me makes it a really inferior spinner. Users of thunder aren't benefited that much by rain, unless they're starmie or rotom-w, but let's take thundurus-T. Under the rain it's that much stronger, now have fun trying to sweep with a 70% accurate move. Users of focus blast can tell you all about that. Also for rain, politoed is just not a very good pokemon. There's a reason it was NU last gen, and even if you count providing rain just for itself as a boost, it's still probably an RU pokemon at best.
Basically, rain/sun mostly force you to run things that are good in their weather and bad out of it, the only exception being people who spam water or fire moves. So it's NOT an unmitigated benefit, unless you fill your team with water/fire move users, and that's not that hard a team to counter, usually.
Up until now, I've intentionally avoided making too much of a reference to Deo-D, as of the three suspects we seem to be focusing on, it's the one I'm the least sure about. Personally, I don't think Deo-D is broken. I just think it's dumb. And I know that me not liking a certain playstyle isn't an acceptable argument for something being broken. If we didn't care at all about how balanced things were and just wanted to ensure the best competitive game possible for tournament play, I'd kick Deo-D straight out, as I know I'm not alone in feeling that it's a ridiculous playstyle that requires a much lower level of skill than the other options to compete at a reasonable level. That's not what we're doing though, so I'm pretty indifferent about it.
I think this is what I've been going at about Deoxys-D the whole time: It might not be as broken as myself or some others make it out to be, but it just requires no skill to abuse. This might be a long, long, stretch, but it's kind of like sand veil. It takes no skill to use it, and it enables people with little skill to play at a much higher level. I absolutely despise things like that.
@tehy
Let me ask you a question, my good friends. How many people use venusaur outside of sun, or any other chlorophyll sweeper? Or cresselia, for all you sun stall players out there? Not many? That's right. When you run weather, under that weather certain pokemon get certain boosts, but once outside of that weather, their effectiveness decreases doubly as much as it improved. (The sole exception is users of boosted fire- and water-type attacks, but i'll get to that.) Look at the above mentions of chlorophyll venusaur. If sun is up, it's a powerful sweeper. If sun is down, it's...what, exactly? Not much, really. Solarbeam users, not that there are many, also take a huge hit outside of sun.
So you're saying we should keep something that might be broken in OU because it makes things viable?
And look at rain. Outside of rain, rain dish tentacruel has protect, which is now mostly worthless. It's also got no means of healing, and weaker water attacks, which to me makes it a really inferior spinner.
Then why was tentacruel so good last generation? Its usefulness isn't just rain dish
Users of thunder aren't benefited that much by rain, unless they're starmie or rotom-w, but let's take thundurus-T. Under the rain it's that much stronger, now have fun trying to sweep with a 70% accurate move. Users of focus blast can tell you all about that.
So...thundurus is bad without rain? I don't think so. Thundurus will just use thunderbolt if it's not in the rain, and sweep pretty much just as easily. When you've got a nasty plot, the difference between 25 points of base power is kind of irrelevant.
Also for rain, politoed is just not a very good pokemon. There's a reason it was NU last gen, and even if you count providing rain just for itself as a boost, it's still probably an RU pokemon at best.
Yeah, if politoed provided rain for itself it wouldn't be that good. So, why is something "bad" (I know that many RU pokemon are viable, but still) being used in OU? Just for its ability. That's it. It's there just to support its team. I think somebody a few pages back put that under the "support clause"
If DPP OU is just considered without weather, then that's for sure what I want. However, there would be no sand or hail, which is different to DPP. There's more to Black and White if you just take away the weathers. I don't just want Sun and Rain gone, I want all auto-weather gone, but getting rid of sun and rain is the first step as they're used much more, so it's easier to convince people that there's a problem with them. Sand is kind of falling under the radar now, but that doesn't make it any less broken.
If DPP OU is just considered without weather, then that's for sure what I want. However, there would be no sand or hail, which is different to DPP. There's more to Black and White if you just take away the weathers. I don't just want Sun and Rain gone, I want all auto-weather gone, but getting rid of sun and rain is the first step as they're used much more, so it's easier to convince people that there's a problem with them. Sand is kind of falling under the radar now, but that doesn't make it any less broken.
How is sand broken? How are any of the weathers broken? We aren't even discussing they're brokenness so much as the debate of "auto loss". Also, DPP OU is sand / hail perma abilities and no sun / rain perma abilities
People have been discussing for a while the brokenness of weathers as well as the so-called "auto-loss". If you go back a few pages, some arguments were made for the banishing of weather but people didn't really comment on it. I'm well aware that DPP is sand and hail with no sun and rain. I'm pretty sure that the people that want sun and rain gone also want sand and hail gone. There's also a reason that Tyranitar has been OU for every generation since its introduction, and it's not because of its ability.
we do not want to ban weather for a more diverse metagame, but we are mentioning that the metagame would still be diverse because it is you guys who keep making it sound like removing weather is synonymous with removing diveristy. We want to ban weather to eliminate the ridiculous team match-up factor. I am not saying that weather-less is impossible to pull off in the current metagame, but it is at a severe disadvantage against weather teams, and just because some players have used it to success doesn't make this any less true.
I'm a bit confused here. You want to to remove team styles to diminish team advantages, but claim the metagame will still be as diverse? How would that work?
As mentioned by others, you can't cover everything in the game, not even with stall teams, so yeah. Even in DPP, when there were 150 less mons, you couldn't cover everything, so why is it a problem now? Weather is fine. Seriously, just make your team with weather A LITTLE in mind and all should be well.
I'm a bit confused here. You want to to remove team styles to diminish team advantages, but claim the metagame will still be as diverse? How would that work?
As mentioned by others, you can't cover everything in the game, not even with stall teams, so yeah. Even in DPP, when there were 150 less mons, you couldn't cover everything, so why is it a problem now? Weatherless is fine. Seriously, just make your team with weather A LITTLE in mind and all should be well.
I think the point that people are trying to make here about diversity is this:
How much diversity is there within weather teams? Take sun: You have ninetales, dugtrio, and then gensecect/heatran/sawsbuck/victini/darmanitan/venosaur/volcarona/donphan in pretty much any combination. What about rain? Politoed, and then with offense you have Thundurus, Tornadus, Jirachi, Starmie, Dragonite, Volcarona, and Keldeo. If it's rain stall, then Jellicent, Ferrothorn, Dragonite, Jirachi, Tentacruel, Toxicroak, or Amoongus, again in any combination. Sand offense is a bit different, but it will always have landorus-I and/or stoutland.
Now, think about weatherless, and how many more options you have. All the weather teams are just cookie-cutter with little variation. Something's validity is pretty much measured on how well it can check a certain type of weather. I think that with weather gone, a lot more things would be allowed to flourish without the fear of trying to constantly check every weather out there. Yeah, you'd lose out on a lot of things that are made great by weather, but diversity will still always be there, and my point of getting rid of weather is not because of diversity, but because of them just being broken. I'm just trying to back up the arguments of people with similar views.
On topic, my stance on ladder vs. tournaments is that there really shouldn't be ladder vs. tournaments in the first place. Both are important when making policy, at least for me.
Ladder gives us objective (by definition) data built off of a relevant dataset (tens of thousands of battles). We use this because it is clear the majority of our community's battles take place on ladder (250k battles in a month in ou only, not sure how many battles tournament's forum has in a month but I'm pretty sure it pales in comparison) and that alone makes it significant to our policy and what allows us to ignore claims like "ladder sucks." Whether or not you can justify that claim, the fact remains that the overwhelming majority of our community's overall time / resources go into playing ladder, and that cannot be ignored. We value ladder player opinions because this is where the bulk of the community's playing efforts lie (note we can do stuff like take Antar's 1337 stats to reduce the "ladder sucks" feeling).
Tournaments gives subjective data (at least until someone bothers to collect all tournament matches and run stats on them) in what most people assume is the "most" competitive environment. Because (most) people consider tournaments to be "the" competitive environment, we ignore the low (potentially insignificant dataset) number of battles and low % of representation. We value tournament player opinions because we seek to emulate this "maximum" competitive environment.
I don't think we should ignore or really value one over the other; ladder stats (especially 1337 stats) represent the bulk, tournament opinions represent what we have (traditionally) striven to emulate.
I think what I'd like, optimally, is that people who say "I feel this because I did this well in a tournaments and lol ladder sucks" to realize they are giving one side of the coin and that people who dismiss tournaments realize they are also only giving one side of the coin. We need to use the bulk stats and objectivity we gain from ladder (especially 1337 stats) and temper it with the wisdom we gain from good tournaments, good tournament matches, and good tournament players.
Alright, some of the other Overused moderators and I have gone through this thread and cleaned house. There was some really unacceptable behavior going on from all parties involved (not just one), and that's not allowed. We deleted about two pages worth of posts, so let's keep this thread civil in the future. So, let me be clear about what's to be expected in this thread:
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Okay i know im a little late to the party but heres my thoughts
RAIN/PERMA WEATHER Idealy i think perma weather should be banned but the odds of that are non existent so i want rain banned.My logic behind this is that there are some pokes that in rain reach broken levels.Torn T would not be nearly as bad outside because it could not depend on hurricane . It would still be a great poke but would be alot more managable.Ferro and forrtress would be easy to kill and less of a pain in the ass as a whole and it would make the meta more fun to play.Rain isnt like sand or hail because it adds both offensive and defensive boosts where as the Hail/Sand don't unless you have a specific ability.Sun pokes tend to be sr weak and ninetails in sun is not nearly as bad as toad in rain .At the end of b/w i think rain was balanced but now with the introduction of the new genie forms keldeo and genesect i think its time we bite the bullet and bannned it
GENESECT Ban this guy now because we will just do it later.In my opinion he is broken end of.Against a good player they can bluff items and that one wrong move can cost you the game completly.At the beginning i was okay with genesect but thats because they were all scarfed but now im seeiing more rock polish and e belt sets.This is like 4th gen mence all over again one wrong prediction and that is it you are either getting beaten or your "counter" is taking alot of damage and is not going to be able to counter for very long.Genesect needs to go
SERENE GRACE I read this in the thread and was quite intrested by it.Smogon seem to be getting rid of luck bassed abilities and isnt this the big one.Now im not saying ban it i just think a descussion woud be very interesting on this topic.Seen as sand veil is suspect
DEOXYS D Is not broken in the slightest.It is no more worrying that forry or ferro.If genesect goes itll be interesting the see if deoxys goes up in usage but no not broken at all
While individual pokemon may not be that big of an issue, I think that the weathers that empower them to do so much more damage than usual are the honest problem entirely. It may be because I love genesect so much, but I can't consider it that broken. However, the more I think about it...it doesn't really have that much definition of "counter"...it's kind of like giving Thundurus-I U-turn instead of its thunder wave. Now, how broken that makes it, I'm not sure.
Yeah...one thing I'd like to talk about is Deoxys-D. It's probably the cheesiest thing in OU right now, and basically is a tool for bad players/people who can't predict to make the long term game easier and less thoughtful. I don't think it's breaking the metagame though in terms of it's not exactly a strong threat that the metagame is building itself around, such GSC Snorlax, ADV Tyranitar or a more recent example being Excadrill. I also think the fact that people are currently obsessed with spinners (and if you don't believe me, you can look at ADV as an example where most new ADV players carry a spinner, especially Forry who prior to ADV being re-introduced into the tour was BL) somewhat neutralises Deoxys-D. I've played with a team of Deo-D + 5 Sweepers on the PS/PO ladders and the amount of people who carry a spinner is ridiculous, even if it does nothing else but spin. I think this is attributed to Ferrothorn and trying to keep your weather starter as healthy as possible than it is to do with Deoxys-D, as well as Starmie and Tentacruel being awesome in rain. However it reduces Deoxys-D to a point where it's a waste of a spot and suddenly your team becomes a lot less effective without hazards, especially HO. You can run Thunder/Psycho Boost/HP:Fire, but then you'll either miss out on Magic Coat, letting other Deo-D (or a random fast Taunter) have their way with you, or you miss out on Stealth Rock and have to use another team slot for it, which is unsatisfactory for an offensive team. I think the fact that there are pretty much no top ghosts in OU makes the case worse for Deoxys-D (and is probably why Rapid Spin is even more popular). Genesect's surge in popularity means Deoxys-D is only getting up SR, and at that point you're best off using something else that sets up SR and is useful later on.
Even then, you're unlikely to have a weather advantage and that sucks if you're facing offense sun/rain, especially the former because of Venusaur's speed and Volcarona destroying most sweepers apart from Terrakion. It's definitely something that the player should deserve no respect for using, but even then I believe that full BP and SmashPass are even dirtier playstyles when used by a good player.
Getting rid of Serene Grace would just make Jirachi and Meloetta unplayable since they have no other ability that they can make use, unlike Garchomp that has it's DW ability Rough Skin. And, at least in my opinion, neither of them are broken by themselves (I don't think that even Serene Grace is broken - what make this ability so "annonying" is the combination of moves that is used with it). (Un)fortunately this ability should be left off discussion until the pokémon that I said above get another ability.
Getting rid of Serene Grace would just make Jirachi and Meloetta unplayable since they have no other ability that they can make use, unlike Garchomp that has it's DW ability Rough Skin. And, at least in my opinion, neither of them are broken by themselves (I don't think that even Serene Grace is broken - what make this ability so "annonying" is the combination of moves that is used with it). (Un)fortunately this ability should be left off discussion until the pokémon that I said above get another ability.
No, that's not what I'm saying... What I'm saying is that ability banning Serene Grace would make Jirachi and Meloetta Ubers. No matter what you think that are broken, Serene Grace or Jirachi and Meloetta themselves; I disagree that they should be banned.
