Isn't that just part of the game though? Say it comes down to 1v1, if your Terrakion hits your opponent's Dragonite with Stone Edge, you win. If you miss and Dragonite KOs you, did you still deserve to win? What is the criteria for "deserving to win" to begin with? To win with as little hax as possible, when that just as much an element of the game as anything else? Where do we draw the line?
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Garchomp and Sand Veil Discussion
- Thread starter Kevin Garrett
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Isn't that just part of the game though? Say it comes down to 1v1, if your Terrakion hits your opponent's Dragonite with Stone Edge, you win. If you miss and Dragonite KOs you, did you still deserve to win? What is the criteria for "deserving to win" to begin with? To win with as little hax as possible, when that just as much an element of the game as anything else? Where do we draw the line?
This is important to consider. When the battle comes down to a Stone Edge hit, the Stone Edge user "deserves" to win 80% of the time, not 100%. When the battle comes down to an Ice Beam against a Sand Veil user, the Ice Beam user "deserves" to win 80% of the time, not 100%. Statistically, over a large number of games, this sort of situation works itself out and is perfectly fair.
Landorus-I would still have a niche with Gravity, I think. And Garchomp is obviously the better Scarfer on any team outside of sand teams.
252SpAtk Garchomp (Neutral) Surf in Rain vs 252HP/0SpDef Leftovers Sturdy Skarmory (Neutral): 44% - 52% (150 - 177 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.
252Atk +2 Garchomp (Neutral) Aqua Tail in Rain vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Sturdy Skarmory (+Def): 50% - 58% (167 - 197 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
This is assuming that Garchomp has no item, it's raining, that Garchomp has a +2 Swords Dance boost and assuming that this Skarmory is a physically defensive variant. The first calculation is assuming that Garchomp has investiment in sp.atk.
So yeah, in this stallbreaking role, Garchomp may be deemed outclassed after all.
Why use RainChomp when you can use SunChomp? +2 Fire Fang in the Sun OHKO's Skarmory and Bronzong after SR. After they are gone, there really is nothing that isn't 2HKO'd by a +2 attack.
SunChomp is definitely worth testing- it handles both Rain and Sand well- and has amazing synergy with common Sun sweepers. Fire types take Ice all day, while Chomp takes Rock well. Offensively, fire types fry Steels in Chomp's path, while Chomp obliterates Dragons and Rock types. Fire types can even take a WoW, while Garchomp can return the favor by taking TWave. Sun provides the boost in power Chomp needs, while it can help take down Tyranitar and Politoed with it's powerful STAbs.
That's some pretty good synergy right there.
SunChomp is definitely worth testing- it handles both Rain and Sand well- and has amazing synergy with common Sun sweepers. Fire types take Ice all day, while Chomp takes Rock well. Offensively, fire types fry Steels in Chomp's path, while Chomp obliterates Dragons and Rock types. Fire types can even take a WoW, while Garchomp can return the favor by taking TWave. Sun provides the boost in power Chomp needs, while it can help take down Tyranitar and Politoed with it's powerful STAbs.
That's some pretty good synergy right there.
This point can't be reiterated enough. What is deserving the win? Sounds like a bs, empty phrase to me.
The difference in the two cases is that you have an option of whether or not you want to use Stone Edge. Wanna stop losing games due to missing Stone Edge? Stop using it. It's that simple. Your Pokemon has to use it for coverage and Rock Slide is too weak? Don't use that Pokemon. When you decide to use Stone Edge, you acknowledge the fact that missing 20% of the time could cost you the game. If you don't want to deal with losing games you should have won due to hax, don't fucking use Stone Edge.
When battling against Sand Veil, you don't have a choice. Don't bring up changing the weather because that assumes winning the weather war, which will not always go in your favor. Any 100% accurate move is lowered to the same accuracy as Stone Edge (and we all know how bad Stone Edge is), while all those imperfect accuracy moves like Stone Edge, Fire Blast, Hydro Pump, and Will-O-Wisp? Yeah, good luck hitting those. It's already explained enough why Sand Veil is bad for this metagame, so.... just read this post. Have a nice day.
When battling against Sand Veil, you don't have a choice. Don't bring up changing the weather because that assumes winning the weather war, which will not always go in your favor. Any 100% accurate move is lowered to the same accuracy as Stone Edge (and we all know how bad Stone Edge is), while all those imperfect accuracy moves like Stone Edge, Fire Blast, Hydro Pump, and Will-O-Wisp? Yeah, good luck hitting those. It's already explained enough why Sand Veil is bad for this metagame, so.... just read this post. Have a nice day.
shamless plug but im going to be playing and uploading battles onto my youtube account (every day i hope). i plan on doing all suspect battles so players can see what the "meta" looks like. so far, ive found chomp is a good pokemon but as i said before, completely underwhelming. heres my latest vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kl_QZVC4G9g&feature=plcp
sorry for advertising but i figure this is a good way to at least give people my perspective of suspect...and honestly i've had fun every game and haven't once thought man my chomp is really ruining this (or my opponents for that matter).
sorry for advertising but i figure this is a good way to at least give people my perspective of suspect...and honestly i've had fun every game and haven't once thought man my chomp is really ruining this (or my opponents for that matter).
Loss conditions don't become invalid just because you don't consent to them. Doesn't matter whether they're random or not.
I'm not denying Sand Veil's power, nor am I saying it should necessarily be permitted. What I am saying, however, is that it is fair. If you lose a game due to a miss, you did not deserve to win, and calling it a match you "should" have won is simply false. Again: of matches where victory comes down to an 80% chance in your favor, you should win 80% of those games, and you should lose 20% of them. Statistically, that is what will approximately happen over the course of enough games.
What about all those games you had in the bag, but then you lose because your Latios's Draco Meteor missed. Ok, so apparently you deserved to lose because you missed. Yeah, I love this logic! We should just say they didn't deserve to win because they're the ones who missed!
Okay, sarcasm aside, saying someone deserved to lose because of a miss is simply absurd.
Some people might be using a miss as an excuse for a loss when other plays could have been the deciding factor for the loss long beforehand. I know people in RU who blame the game entirely on hax when my Steelix doesn't get hit by a Fire Blast from a Moltres because of a single miss, when they didn't pack a Whirlwinder or Quagsire to deal with its profanity-spewing ways of physical sweeping. I've trained my Steelix (named Jetsam) to censor himself, though, when the need arises (such as when I need a more defensive set).
That said, misses aren't the end all be all to a game usually. Oftentimes it's as simple as a matchup, or as complex as switch-in mispredicts that cost the game. Almost never is a miss truly what "wins someone the game."
Sand is harder to keep in OU than it was in UU, due to having Rain, Sun, and even Abomasnow to deal with. Also, you would have to rewrite several analyses that say that Sand Veil is one of the most situational abilities in the game, and that the Dream World abilities for most of the Sand Veil users are better in every way. In this case, Garchomp is actually better off with Rough Skin anyway, Sand Veil being "broken" or not.
That said, misses aren't the end all be all to a game usually. Oftentimes it's as simple as a matchup, or as complex as switch-in mispredicts that cost the game. Almost never is a miss truly what "wins someone the game."
Sand is harder to keep in OU than it was in UU, due to having Rain, Sun, and even Abomasnow to deal with. Also, you would have to rewrite several analyses that say that Sand Veil is one of the most situational abilities in the game, and that the Dream World abilities for most of the Sand Veil users are better in every way. In this case, Garchomp is actually better off with Rough Skin anyway, Sand Veil being "broken" or not.
1. I also mentioned match-ups. Sometimes all it takes is a bad match-up to put oneself at a disadvantage. People in RU like to use Metang for no good reason, despite it costing them the game just from match-up alone. My team in OU could be facing against something that not only doesn't care about Abomasnow, but doesn't care about any of the partners it has. I could also be running an entirely different team that gets shut down by Shadow Tag.
Whether or not I prefer other Pokemon over others is not pertinent to this discussion. <_<
3. It's not just the "unfortunate event," as I had mentioned prior. It can be any number of factors which meant the opponent's team was better. If it was able to keep Sand in OU despite facing key issues (other weather-setters, revengekillers who love Sand more than Sand abusers, etc. etc.), then the team was just flat out good. A tonne of people seem to have this pre-conceived notion that because their team lacks weather, that their team is inherently better than teams that have weather. Oftentimes it's not the case, and I used to have this notion at times. I opened my mind to building weather-dependent teams and started being more able to coordinate my teambuilding, thus making superior teams than what I would have crafted a whole year ago.
Statistically, that's 10% of the games that would come down to a Draco Meteor hit, which is precisely what is supposed to happen. If you're got the game "in the bag" but you're relying on a 90% hit to win, you've only gotten a 90% win so far. You should win 90% of the time in this case, not 100%.
Premise 1: If you use a strategy with a 90% success rate, you deserve to win 90% of the time.
Premise 2: If you use a strategy with a 90% success rate over the course of many games, you will win 90% of the time.
Conclusion: If you use a strategy with a 90% success rate over the course of many games, you will win as often as you deserve to.
This is my logic. Do you have anything to indicate a flaw either with a premise or with the conclusion?
Sand Veil hax may not be the reason you lost the game, but if comes down 1v1 and you attack with Surf (which you CHOSE over Hydro Pump SPECIFICALLY so you wouldn't lose to an unfortunate miss), and Sand Veil essentially chooses for you. You end up using H-pump anyway (and a weaker H-pump, mind you). Power vs Accuracy. You chose accuracy, and now you've lost both, and not by your choice either.
Anyone can turn around and say, "well you should've selected Dragon Pulse when choosing which moves to use on your set".
If someone loses due to a critical hit, which is beyond either players' control, then you're at liberty to declare you were cheated out of a win; especially if you would've won prior to RNG initiating luck, costing what would've been a victory for you otherwise. That does not, however, mean you have to personally insult your opponent because a simulator activates what it was programmed to do in the first place.
Thankfully the more games you play, you'll realise hax tends to balance itself out and everyone should understand Pokemon is not the game for them if they constantly complain about every bit of luck that comes their way. Hax is never 100% against any player and 0% for them, never. You win due to hax, and lose to it.
Sand Veil essentially abuses these components to your advantage. Luck is an element within the game, though craving for a miss intentionally is what Sand Veil represents and should therefore falls under the same catagory as the likes of BrightPowder, Double Team, etc.
Even though I don't have much experience with the metagame, I agree with this. Sand Veil, BrightPowder, Double Team, etc. are not broken, as in they give such an advantage that if you're not using it, you've already lost (for example, Kyogre in OU would be obviously broken). However, they are bad for the game in that they make the result of matches caused more by luck than by skill.
The people arguing about the evasion being out of your control need to consider nearly every other ability in the game... an opponents abilitiy is not something you can control and most of the time abilities will help the user and hinder the opponent. I understand that garchimp is so good.. it hardly needs an ability and the extra 20% evasion can really tip it over the edge. But please don't relate things out of your control to a pokemon being broken...
...Albeit I'd love to see jirachi banned.
PS garchomp really has a killer stat distribution and type combo... It's incredibly hard to ohko
PPS lmao about complaining about draco meteor misses... The move has a fawkin 140 base power
...Albeit I'd love to see jirachi banned.
PS garchomp really has a killer stat distribution and type combo... It's incredibly hard to ohko
PPS lmao about complaining about draco meteor misses... The move has a fawkin 140 base power
People should not be complaining about Sand Veil being broken or how their 100% moves shouldn't miss. Abilities are here to shake things up. Hitting 80% of the time is still pretty good odds. Also, if SV was broken, don't you think it would have AT LEAST have been placed in the A tier, if not the S tier, in the Ability Tiering Thread? http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3466918
Err what?
That thread looks at abilities in a vacuum (last I checked). If sandstorm is active, its good, if its not, its useless. Sand Veil does also impact on how good the pokemon could use the free turn. Giving a free turn to Gliscor or Garchomp (both of which have Swords Dance) is a lot more threatening than giving Jellicent a free turn. Therefore, I can understand its tiering. This is also ignoring that point that just because 10 users decided to vote it for B tier, does not mean the ability isn't broken. 55 People (suspect test voters who had a fair idea of the metagame) decided that Sand Veil on Garchomp was broken, to me, (as well as this thread), that gives me a pretty good idea on many peoples viewpoints on Sand Veil.
The point isn't that if you lose a 1on1, that you would've won, due to sand veil that that's unfair. While I do agree that sand veil has a detrimental effect on how enjoyable pokemon is this isn't the reason it should be banned. It's because there were sets that abuse the combination of garchomp and sand veil and those sets were broken. Garchomp isn't banned because of the 1on1 conditions where a win becomes a loss 20% of the time (though that is frustrating) but because if you give garchomp a free turn there's a good chance you'll have to sacrifice at least one poke and this can happen at any point in the match and change it completely. Garchomp in particular had all the right tools to abuse this extremely effectively. Now that garchomp can't abuse that free turn it is less broken (though not necessarily unbroken). Does that make sense?
Ok, now these 55 people deemed Sand Veil on Garchomp broken. Everyone has their opinion. What I do not understand is why has Sand Veil been banned from EVERY pokemon who has access to it? This now throws non-DW Cacturne and Sandslash into Ubers. Sandslash has Sand Rush as a DW ability, so it will see some use still, albeit it very minor in OU. Cacturne may never be used again by anyone other than it's biggest fans in any tier possible. It's DW ability is Water Absorb which doesn't help it at all since it's defenses suck and it is resistant to water-type attacks already.
Many people have mentioned bans such as Sand Stream+Sand Veil and Garchomp+Sand Veil. I feel like both of these would be more acceptable, the former more so the latter, personally. If either of these were mentioned by the suspect test voters, what was the reasoning for banning Sand Veil in general instead of choosing one of the two options that I presented just now?
Many people have mentioned bans such as Sand Stream+Sand Veil and Garchomp+Sand Veil. I feel like both of these would be more acceptable, the former more so the latter, personally. If either of these were mentioned by the suspect test voters, what was the reasoning for banning Sand Veil in general instead of choosing one of the two options that I presented just now?
I could imagine Weavile and Mamoswine to become more common in OU. Especially Skarmory being one of the few pokemon to resist Chomp's stabs.
...Huh? It's defenses suck, yeah. So it can't take strong water-type attacks. So Water Absorb is helpful. The "defenses suck" statement makes Water Absorb more viable, not less. Cacturne would remain a perfectly viable NU Pokémon. It loses out on Bullet Seed and Encore, but in exchange for Water Absorb (which is superior, of course, in NU), these moves aren't such a horrible loss.
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