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np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 7 - Ice Ice Baby

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I have been following this argument closely even though I have yet to play in the suspect test. I think Lady Alex is right on the money of how in OU tier suspects should of taken priority over letting pokemon down from Ubers. Even if Kyurem-B would balance out other threats (which it doesn't), in my view this would be like bringing down Giratina to counter Blaziken, its totally backwards thinking. I understand why this decision was made though, PO has had it out for a while and we needed to make sure if we were right at all in banning it. There also seems to be a list of pokemon the coucil wants to test again in OU (Garchomp, Excadrill, Thundurus), that has been in planning since July.

That being said, I still don't think Kyurem-B is broken from what I have seen and read, it just seems like another moronic outrage spamming dragon that can't even set up. Unless you allow it to, Kyurem-B shouldn't be able to kill anything without using outrage, then its easily checked. All I will have to do is run a check on my stall team (my thinking Scarf-Garchomp).

Since Kyrurem-B doesn't seem to have any major impact on the meta, I don't see the need for all this hate flying around. Lets just finish this round, and next time before we decide to try something out in OU, lets make sure OU is ok before we mess with it.

just my 2-cents as a lurker of this thread
 
Scarfwynaut said:
That being said, I still don't think Kyurem-B is broken from what I have seen and read, it just seems like another moronic outrage spamming dragon that can't even set up. Unless you allow it to, Kyurem-B shouldn't be able to kill anything without using outrage, then its easily checked.
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You would be surprised at how dangerous mixed sub sets are too. It's very potent and the things that normally check it (think skarmory and ferrothorn) Get wrecked by its mixed sets, especially in hail. If I were going to run Kyurem-B, it definitely wouldn't be an outrage spamming set. Of course, CB outrage hits like a truck and can be really annoying with magnezone support.
 
What exactly does a sub-Kyurem set look like? Since it is giving up a coverage move, I would imagine it would be wall able by at least something. That also means it would have to run life orb / leftovers, so there is a serious drop in power.

Again, idk, this is all theorymon out my ass. This is why I ask.
 
If Kyurem-B is not yet broken but might be in a future metagame, we leave it for now and then address it if it turns out broken then. It's not like it can never be reevaluated if things change.
 
I have tried Kyurem-B in OU, and let me tell you, it is much better than regular Kyurem.
Getting those stat boosts, the most important one being Attack. Gaining Fusion Bolt helps a ton! Without it, Kyurem-B wouldn't be so viable. Personally, I think it would add a lot of variety to OU, which seems very bland at the moment. It makes Goodstuffs a better option for a team. It feels like about 3/4 of teams are Weather teams.

What I'm getting to is Kyurem-B is one of the best weather counters I've seen. It has either super effective coverage, or at least neutral coverage on the Big Three (more neutral then super efeective, really). That's right: It hits Politoed via Fusion Bolt, and Ninetales and that Tyranitar you hate with a ridiculously powerful Outrage. That comes off of an attack stat of 170.

The only problem is lack of a physical Ice move, other than Freeze Shock, which Troll Freak had to make a two-turn charge move. This is a serious problem. It can still use Ice Beam, but it isn't as POOWWAFULL as Kyurem-W's, which really won't be coming to OU anytime soon. Now if it get Ice Punch or Icicle Crash somehow, that's it's slingshot back to Ubers.

But still, it could be competing with popular physically based Dragon-types, such as Garchomp, Salamence, and Dragonite.

As an official thing to say I will say put Kyurem-B in OU. It has it's problems, sure, but it could be one heck of a monster there.

As Prince Kyurem says:
"I'm going to find a way to learn Ice Punch, no matter how long it takes!"
 
"Broken stuff balancing out broken stuff," argument is a terrible logic that's been bounced around here. If the metagame is balanced and diverse, then it's not broken! To me, "broken stuff balancing out broken stuff," simply is an excuse to ban top threats that you don't want to face anymore.
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bear in mind that the stance on what is and is not broken is subjective. balanced and diverse could be said about OU, PERHAPS (not saying i would agree), but if that places the power of OU above what players prefer, then that's not a desirable metagame either. i'm not saying OU is even close to being there yet... but we're here to play OU, not ubers. the posting in this thread should be demonstration enough - not everyone agrees that this is the direction that OU's power should be heading. unbanning cube would simply push that even higher.
 
@scarfwynaut

This is the set I used

Kyurem-Black @ Leftovers
Trait: Teravolt
EVs: 252 SAtk / 148 Spd / 104 HP / 4 Def
Modest Nature
- Substitute
- Dragon Claw
- Blizzard
- Earth Power

It may not be the best set, and the EVs are probably not the most efficient. I just randomly came up with it when I briefly used hail on the ladder. It was pretty good, and it was especially useful against sun and rain. I used modest because kyurem still has a very respectable 338 attack with a -atk nature. I ran enough speed to outspeed jolly breloom in case it tries to spore (most of them realize they're not going to be able to 1hko with mach punch).
 
Sub Kyurem-B doesn't give up much of its coverage because.. well.. it doesn't have much coverage to begin with, lol.

Kyurem-B @ Leftovers
Trait: Teravolt
EVs: 56 HP / 216 Atk / 236 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Substitute
- Fusion Bolt
- Ice Beam / Hidden Power Fire
- Dragon Claw


is what Kyurem-B looks like with a Subsitute set. It's cool since it can sub up on a lot of Pokemon it threatens. I like Ice Beam to hit Gliscor/Hippowdon etc but HP Fire is cool too for Forretress, Genesect, Ferrothorn, etc. -SpA nature since you don't miss out on many KO's anyways.
 
Alk (and I guess yee, Lavos, undisputed) - I never said that our current metagame is perfect; I simply said that "broken stuff balancing out broken stuff," is a terrible argument to ban anything, because you can then label the top threats as "broken stuff" and ban them, despite them being readily checked in the metagame. (ie the checks and balances are working, with no particular element overwhelming the other).

And please, STOP BRINGING UP UBERS. Kyu-B in OU =/= Ubers metagame. We aren't bringing down Reshiram, Lugia, Kyurem-W, Kyogre - just Kyurem-B. Kyurem-B is fully dealt with by ordinary OU means, and it is less impressive than pre-existing OU threats (we're not even talking about "the suspects," either, we're talking about less impressive than non-suspects like Terrakion and Garchomp). I do not see the rise in power level by Kyu-B, since it has nominal influence of the metagame - Keldeo, Tornadus-T, and Genesect have noticeably upped this threshold of power - but we are nowhere near Uber level in terms of power. You obviously haven't played any Ubers, because it's such a silly fear (that I already cleared up in post #118 - go read).
 
hm, i think the questions to ask are:

is kyurem-black bad for the metagame? is it broken in the current metagame? is it broken in a "balanced metagame"?

it's not bad for the metagame - it doesn't really fucking do anything, nobody uses it, and its only real effect is boosting hail - this is hardly bad.

is it broken in the current metagame? obviously not.

is it broken in a balanced metagame? this is a more interesting question. right now, i'm actually saying that it isn't. it will always be easily revenge killed, it's hard walled by jirachi (run def evs people) and defensively checked by pokemon like bronzong, skarmory, heatran, and ferrothorn. cb obviously has the weakness of being locked into an outrage, albeit a really strong one, and sub has to decide between ice beam and hp fire for coverage.

verdict: no ban from me.
 
Thorhammer said:
If Kyurem-B is not yet broken but might be in a future metagame, we leave it for now and then address it if it turns out broken then. It's not like it can never be reevaluated if things change.

And I have to say, I'm kinda confused about how it's not okay to "clutter" a thread with another regular post like everyone else makes but it's perfectly okay to clutter someone's perfectly permissible post by inserting your own dissenting response right into it where they may not even see it to have a chance to respond.
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This post in it's entirety. We could ban Kyurem-B now, but that would just cause us to waste some time, since we'd invariably have to unban it once we deal with "true" suspects in the future. Once we're done suspecting the true culprits (I don't have to tell what they are, by now you should know) then we can deal with Kyurem-B in the future. Banning it now would just be sloppy; yeah, it would make the metagame slightly more tolerable to play, but why is this even relevant?? If you buff & clean shit, it's still shit.

undisputed said:
Big ups to PDC, I love that dude.
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Kyu-B in OU =/= Ubers metagame.
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fwiw pocket, i did agree with you on this one:
i'm not saying OU is even close to being there yet... but we're here to play OU, not ubers.
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but surely it cannot be denied that cube increases the overall "smashiness" of OU. of course we're not going to end up being ubers, of course we're not even close - but we're still closer now than we would have been before. cube's movepool and typing and speed are shit but it's still a cover legend, with stats to match. i'm just saying that cube is raising the power level of OU, and that is not a direction that all players agree with - hence, even if it's not broken in and of itself, voting to ban is not unjustified. either way i had no intention of going for reqs in this round so i'm just here to spectate *shrug* OU is the only meta i play atm, after all.



anyway actual metagame question now: yo bri, that substitute set - no satk EVs? hp fire would be pretty weak without em =/ 252/168 ferro is only 2hkoed like a sixth of the time. i guess that's why ice beam is the main slash?

(i am mainly asking because if cube gets unbanned and a genesect test is next, i intend to actually go for reqs there, so it would be good to familiarize myself with the counters to an upcoming threat)
 
I would encourage others to share their mixed sub-Kyurem sets, but from what it looks like so far, both Jirachi and Chansey are solid counters for sub versions, and there are probably other pokemon (Im thinking Mew). In fact this Kyurem only beats Jirachi if it runs max special attack + life orb + earth power or if you run it in the sun with HP fire(lol).

So yeah, any stall team can run a Chansey or Jirachi + a check to spam outrage versions, certainly an easier pokemon to deal with than genesect.

Again all theorymon, if wrong please correct me. If your a stall player in this meta, your input would be exellent, also, if you have any more counters.
 
Lmao I wanna troll this topic so badly atm.

All of you, both "sides" and all...relax.

I understand people might hate this meta, but I've almost infracted about 6 people I legitimately like in this topic for saying things like "I've played 15 games, this metagame sucks" and silly statements like that.

[22:22] <MysteryMan> unbanning pokemon causes metagame shifts that would possibly influence whether another pokemon is broken; if it's still broken, then it can be banned later, but if it's banned before, then it would either remain banned or we'd have to do another unban test
[22:23] <MysteryMan> none of the candidates for being unbanned provide support on the scale of something like drizzle that would break previously non-broken pokemon, as far as i can tell
[22:25] <MysteryMan> actually that came out kind of badly and means something different than i intended
[22:26] <MysteryMan> testing unbans first and banning later ensures that the banned pokemon are broken in the final metagame
[22:26] <MysteryMan> testing bans first and then unbanning leaves the possibility that something broken in the former metagame is no longer broken in the final metagame
[22:28] <MysteryMan> of course this goes out the window if something major like drizzle gets banned but i am trying to pretend we won't be such an angry mob that that would actually happen

I'm not actually pasting this as justification of the decision to test unban suspects before ban suspects, I'm pasting it so you realize this reasoning is sound AND that the opposite direction logic for the other side is valid as well: while this direction is concerned that things formerly banned might not be broken at the end, the opposite direction would be concerned that things formerly not broken at the end would be broken.

Both side's concerns are valid and there are positives to doing ban suspects first just as there are positives to doing unban suspects first.

This is literally the last time I expect to hear _any_ complaints about the direction we chose to take; if you want to whine about, expect a swift post deletion and a nice 2 point infraction. I know I have like 3 total infractions in 5 years of modding, but I might just be serious about this one.

I'll preface my following statement by throwing something out there in general: I'm starting to warm to the idea of Genesect, Deoxys-D, Drizzle, and possibly Drought as suspect. THAT SAID, I'm getting sick and tired of people constantly whining about their existence in the metagame...here is a fact: the metagame is balanced. Whether or not you like it is entirely subjective. If we wanted to, we could stop suspect tests here and say "we have a balanced metagame." However, we are working on suspect tests, and even possibly redefining broken as we go along, but this is a process that holds huge future consequences and therefore will take time.

Stop bitching.

Stop moaning.

Stop whining.

If you hate this metagame so much, you are welcome to stop playing it, but kindly shut the hell about it.

But, regarding Kyurem-B, judge if it is broken in the current metagame. If it isn't, just vote to unban and accept it. We'll get to the 4 thing I mentioned eventually, but assuming they'll be banned for sure down the road is exceptionally silly. And if they are banned, you have no idea if Kyurem-B would be broken in that metagame.

Honestly children.
 
I love Aldaron... so much right now <3

And whoever brought it up is right; broken stuff checking other broken stuff would be(by definition) a balanced metagame. The difference is that overall, the average power level is unfamiliar. The definition of broken would simply need to be redefined. If the big broken threats, brought up in this thread(weather, dragons, torn-t, genesect etc), all check each other in one way or another then they should not be considered "broken" or too good; they should be considered the gold standard of the OU metagame. They would be the S Ranked pokemon(see PKs OU viability thread).

They shouldn't be considered a negative influence on the metagame until they are no longer checking each other. I fear that if we don't change how we view "brokenness" we will be at risk of tailoring our metagame to our personal wants and needs. I should add though that that may be what many people want :) who knows, but I've always seen Smogon as being more objective in its banning philosophy.
 
Joeyboy said:
And whoever brought it up is right; broken stuff checking other broken stuff would be(by definition) a balanced metagame. The difference is that overall, the average power level is unfamiliar. The definition of broken would simply need to be redefined. If the big broken threats, brought up in this thread(weather, dragons, torn-t, genesect etc), all check each other in one way or another then they should not be considered "broken" or too good; they should be considered the gold standard of the OU metagame. They would be the S Ranked pokemon(see PKs OU viability thread).

They shouldn't be considered a negative influence on the metagame until they are no longer checking each other. I fear that if we don't change how we view "brokenness" we will be at risk of tailoring our metagame to our personal wants and needs. I should add though that that may be what many people want :) who knows, but I've always seen Smogon as being more objective in its banning philosophy.
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I really don't understand this viewpoint at all. If anyone can argue it successfully to me I'd love to hear it but until then I just think it's plain wrong. As an extreme example, we could unban every single Uber pokemon and have a balanced metagame. They check each other; by your logic, this is a reasonable course of action to take.

The only honest way we can define brokenness is through change. If, say, Conkeldurr falls in usage drastically because of Tornadus-T, that's a minor change, but no indication that Tornadus is broken. If, however, we see stall plummet, defensive teams in general fall out of favour, Dugtrio usage skyrocket and the whole host of other changes which it has (in part) precipitated occur, then the only possible conclusion is that it is broken. So long as we have a vast number of changes happening at the same time, and we can clearly point to Tornadus-T as the culprit, then it's broken because its forcing the metagame to adapt more than a balanced pokemon could. We can do tests in reverse too, by removing suspects from the metagame, letting it stabilise, and seeing how much differs.

Obviously, our current situation isn't as simple as that, because Politoed + Genesect + Tornadus + Deoxys-D pretty much share responsibility for the lack of viable variation in this metagame. I think my point still stands though.
 
going back to kyurem-B, base 95 speed is crap for an offensive pokemon w/o priority. raping stall doesn't mean anything if stall wasn't going to be viable anyway, and being slower than haxorus isn't going to help you sweep without a +2 speed boost of some sort (at least zekrom gets tailwind / thunder wave)...

however, the metagame is such where to be considered viable, a pokemon has to do one of the following:

- be a dragon or a steel type (no altarias / druddigons / mawiles etc. allowed)
- operate well / benefit from rain
- have a strong enough priority attack to beat salamence / tornadus-T
- be able to beat genesect 1v1, or at least be able to set up while it u-turns away
- have a broken ability (weather, trapping, Imposter, et al)

otherwise there's no point of having any pokemon on your OU team
 
Arash said:
however, the metagame is such where to be considered viable, a pokemon has to do one of the following:

- be a dragon or a steel type (no altarias / druddigons / mawiles etc. allowed) Kyu-B is a dragon
- operate well / benefit from rain It's not really affected by rain
- have a strong enough priority attack to beat salamence / tornadus-T Too slow
- be able to beat genesect 1v1, or at least be able to set up while it u-turns away Genesect gets a SpA Boost vs Kyu-B, G-sect gets 2HK'd by Fusion Bolt, while Genesect 3HKs(2HK if Stealth rocks are involved) with +1 Ice Beam or has a chance of OHKs with +1 Flash Cannon,
- have a broken ability (weather, trapping, Imposter, et al) Only Broken vs Skarmory

otherwise there's no point of having any pokemon on your OU team
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What I have to say about Kyu-B in Bold.
 
Just got reqs:

vfSX5.png


Anyways I think this metagame is horrible. I have a million reasons why, but Kyurem-B is not one of them and I don't want to rant about everything this metagame has that I hate because I'd like to avoid an infraction. I'll vote Kyu-B OU.
 
Just made reqs

L0XTH.png


Did not face Kyurem B a whole lot but the few times I did, I did not find it threatening. I was using different archetypes of teams from rain to HO to sand, mostly HO. Kyurem-B is a pretty solid choice against rain though, because of its resistances to Water/Grass/Electric and great special bulk. This makes it a good pick in OU but imo not broken enough to ban (considering the other stuff in this tier).
 
One set I've tried to some success (although my team is horrible):

Kyurem-B @ Life Orb
120 HP / 252 SpA / 136 Spe
Mild / Rash nature (can't decide which one to use...)
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power
- Fusion Bolt
- Roost

Basically, a bulky mixed attacker. Kyurem's Attack is actually six points higher than its Special Attack with this set iirc, and Fusion Bolt is mostly for bulky Waters (need to see if a certain number of Attack EVs are needed for specific KOs). Base 120 Special Attack still hits pretty damn hard.
 
Aww man, Aquasition's posts are reminding me of that other post in the past that everyone used to make fun of. And it's funny because now we see more clearly than ever that we were kind of making fun of the wrong thing. If Black Kyurem even had a usable second STAB, it would probably be kicking it up in Ubers with its version counterpart...

I find that comparisons like these are helpful in determining just how powerful something is. I'm kind of baffled that some people are STILL gawking at the Base Attack when it's technically nothing new in OU or UU or even RU. We should be focused on aspects that actually distinguish Black Kyurem from stuff like Darmanitan and Medicham, namely (effective) bulk and coverage.
 
MsIED.png


Finally i got the reqs, as a lot of people already said Kyurem-B was far from being as overused as you would expect in a suspect test and the few times i have used it i mainly used it as a mixed attacker. it performed pretty well, but isn't broken for reasons that have been stated already a million times in this thread. The CB set practically guarantees you a kill in each match, but dies afterwards wich is far from being spectactular, the mixed sets are way more interesting but i haven't seen many of them sadly.

What really suprised me in this suspect test was that i have seen some pretty cool sun stall teams that made use of Cresselia wich was kinda refreshing after playing against the same 3-4 teams that everyone is using atm again and again.
 
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