np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 7 - Ice Ice Baby

[dragonuser]

screenshot

Like most I barely used Kyurem-B during my suspect run, but I faced it a decent amount and I have a pretty good grasp of its use in the metagame. I have to agree with others that Kyurem-B isn't broken, but I have to echo the words of Bro Fist in saying that it creates a very poor metagame. During my ladder run I legitimately faced the same teams over and over. Last suspect was sort of the same, but in this suspect I don't feel like people are copying as much but are just using the only viable archetypes in the metagame. As opposed to last suspect where Garchomp brought a lot of diversity to the metagame, I feel like Kyurem-B, while it may not be astounding on its own, has the power to decrease versatility in the metagame. These are just my thoughts so far and the round still has plenty of time to change them. Who knows some creative people may be able to prove me wrong (really hope some people do), because if not I am leaning towards voting for a ban, as Kyurem-B seems to only bring a negative influence on this metagame.

 

[Alice in Strings]

No, you misunderstand my post. I'm not arguing that Kyu-B isn't broken, I'm arguing that it's less broken in the face of all the other broken stuff that currently resides in the OU tier. Kyu-B is actually good for the metagame right now, as it helps counteract the complete dominance of Rain teams, giving Hail a bit of a leg up with its superb Mixed set. You say that if it's broken, there's no justification to not ban it, but the justification you claim I lack is right there in the post above you.

edit: Seconding what Bri says below me, Mixed Kyu-B in Hail is a phenomenal Pokemon capable of ripping through teams and catching common defensive walls such as Gliscor and Hippowdon by surprise.

Is this where I say "Lets not fix what's broke?" This is a phenomenally confusing arguement here. Ok, so lets leave Kyu-B in the tier. What then? Do we end up throwing Reshiram in the tier to balance out Kyu-B?

It's kinda like...the whole thing with introducing new species to drive out pests in an ecosystem in real life. The new species becomes the complete game changer. We're trying to use Kyu-B to get rid of Rain, but then Kyu-B becomes the focus of the entire game. What then?

The point of suspect testing, as I recall, is to make sure that we have an even, BALANCED, game. I'm not saying that it's balanced at the moment, but if we're simply adding something that could be unbalanced to get rid of something else that people feel is unbalanced, then how the hell are we achieving the goal of this thread?

Agastya pointed out that 252 ATK EVs is overkill on Kyu-B because it doesn't need that much to beat Haxorus with 252 Attack EVs and a beneficial nature (Adamant, most likely). That means it can put the remaining EVs into bulk, or even SPEED, since you guys are going on about how Kyu-B's speed is so god awful at a respectable 95 Base.

tl;dr read the post.

 

[ssbbm]

no

the meta isnt focused around kyurem - b

its just that kyurem-b (who is barely seen) helps kinda even out the meta

the meta still sucks though

 

[Alice in Strings]

no

the meta isnt focused around kyurem - b

its just that kyurem-b (who is barely seen) helps kinda even out the meta

the meta still sucks though

The arguement was that Kyu-Badass beats Rain teams, not that it was focused around the dragon. Its still centered squarely around Toed and Tails' majestic cousin.

If the only reason we're keeping Kyu-B in the tier is to get rid of rain, then why bother keeping it?

 

[Ghostbone]

Kyurem-B is hardly a centralising force when most of his checks are the same as checks for other dragons (genesect just has to run flash cannon over t-bolt or flamethrower in rain)
Especially when many players have noted that Kyurem-B is a liability when trying to reach reqs.

 

[undisputed]

This metagame is so bad it's really beyond belief. I don't think Kyurem-b is that good by any stretch of the imagination, but it's the only thing that can be blamed. Last suspect's Garchomp meta was pretty good in my opinion (aside from fukn Sand Veil bs), but now that Kyu-b is here, everything got horrible. It's just Phil's frontier team and Deoxys-D teams over and over. Makes me physically ill.

 

[ssbbm]

made reqs

will edit in with more thoughts l8r

edit: a few thoughts

this metagame is horrible.

it's like the uber metagame.

spike stacking is everywhere, rain is everywhere, dragons are everywhere, and fucking broken ass shit like rp genesect is everywhere. in fact, i'd say it's even worse than the uber metagame - at least in ubers, you can run stall decently without being wrecked by tornadus-t + dugtrio or kyurem-b or whatever massively overpowered pokemon we have.

the most successful team archetypes either are something like deo-d + gengar + 4 mons, valentine's team, or dragon spam. sand is pretty much a failure in this meta.

i dunno, i don't think kyurem-b is broken, but it definitely has a bad impact on the metagame (stale as fuck, seriously, although that may be because i played the same users quite a few time). i would not ban it though, because i think one of the reasons the metagame is stale is because people aren't innovating because they use easy ladder teams to try and gain points. there is still some room for innovation.

 

[UltiMario]

Seconding most of this. While I do believe Kyu-B isn't broken considering the current state of the OU metagame, it's way too OP for what a decent OU metagame ought to look like. Like myzozoa, if it comes to a vote, I'll unban, but I really think we shouldn't be going about suspect testing like this. Instead of unbanning more broken stuff to counteract the preexisting broken stuff, why not ban all the broken stuff and make the metagame a better place for players who aren't interested in using weather offense 100% of the time to have a chance at success?

The answer to the question is integrated into how Smogon is supposedly handling bans.

Every gen the power creep sends the bounds to what is the top of the metagame higher. The goal is to ban as little as possible while still retaining a balanced metagame; without having any Pokemon that singlehandedly dominate the entire metagame, or in another words, are Uber. The idea that any Pokemon in the current metagame can compete for an Ubers spot next to even lower Ubers threats like Skymin or Darkrai is laughable (I exclude Deo-S, Excadrill, and Thundy-I since I expect those to be suspect tested in BW2 sooner or later, we'll see if they're real Ubers or not then). If we can bring something down and it just slides right in and doesn't adversely effect the metagame bar the fact you have to prepare for it to the same degree or less than other OUs (pretty much what Kyurem-B does) then supposedly that's when we unban it. On top of that, if there's no single Pokemon that is capable of dominating the metagame by itself (hint: Politoed can't sweep entire teams by himself before you want to bring something weather related up), then there's nothing out there to ban.

There is no such thing as arbitrary bans in competitive gaming. The supposed goal is not to ban shit that isn't broken in OU in an attempt to turn the power level down a bit. This is the power level we sit at. If Pokemon has hit the territory where something as powerful as Kyurem-B is completely balanced in the metagame, then that's where the power level of the metagame is. There should be no principle idea of "this is where some people want the power level of the tier to be, but it's lower than our level, so the only thing to do is do arbitrary bans to achieve this non-existent goal."

Bans should not be on principle. They should be on necessity.

I know I sound mean when I get into super srs mode on bans, but hope that sums things up :3

 

[UltiMario]

Seconding most of this. While I do believe Kyu-B isn't broken considering the current state of the OU metagame, it's way too OP for what a decent OU metagame ought to look like. Like myzozoa, if it comes to a vote, I'll unban, but I really think we shouldn't be going about suspect testing like this. Instead of unbanning more broken stuff to counteract the preexisting broken stuff, why not ban all the broken stuff and make the metagame a better place for players who aren't interested in using weather offense 100% of the time to have a chance at success?

The answer to the question is integrated into how Smogon is supposedly handling bans.

Every gen the power creep sends the bounds to what is the top of the metagame higher. The goal is to ban as little as possible while still retaining a balanced metagame; without having any Pokemon that singlehandedly dominate the entire metagame, or in another words, are Uber. The idea that any Pokemon in the current metagame can compete for an Ubers spot next to even lower Ubers threats like Skymin or Darkrai is laughable (I exclude Deo-S, Excadrill, and Thundy-I since I expect those to be suspect tested in BW2 sooner or later, we'll see if they're real Ubers or not then). If we can bring something down and it just slides right in and doesn't adversely effect the metagame bar the fact you have to prepare for it to the same degree or less than other OUs (pretty much what Kyurem-B does) then supposedly that's when we unban it. On top of that, if there's no single Pokemon that is capable of dominating the metagame by itself (hint: Politoed can't sweep entire teams by himself before you want to bring something weather related up), then there's nothing out there to ban.

There is no such thing as arbitrary bans in competitive gaming. The supposed goal is not to ban shit that isn't broken in OU in an attempt to turn the power level down a bit. This is the power level we sit at. If Pokemon has hit the territory where something as powerful as Kyurem-B is completely balanced in the metagame, then that's where the power level of the metagame is. There should be no principle idea of "this is where some people want the power level of the tier to be, but it's lower than our level, so the only thing to do is do arbitrary bans to achieve this non-existent goal."

Bans should not be on principle. They should be on necessity.

I know I sound mean when I get into super srs mode on bans, but hope that sums things up :3

 

[PK Gaming]

Im still suspicious if thats actually the rain sweepers, and not Kyurem-B that's ruining the metagame. Hazards from Deo-D, Genesect, and rain sweepers are infinitely more "overpowered" than Kyurem-B will ever be, and they're the reason why the metagame is so stagnant / shitty. Kyurem-B is taking the fall for something it didn't do, which is kind of lame. I'd rather see it unbanned for now and see if its broken in the future, ideally after we suspect the threats that are infinitely more dangerous than Kyurem-B before kicking out of OU so quickly.

If it does get banned (ugh) hopefully it gets a fair test in the future, when people aren't so quick to impulse ban it. We're basically playing out the scene from Wicker Man. Kyurem-B is Nicholas Cage.

 

[Bent1ey]

I addressed already that there is a risk of banning/dropping Kyurem-B because it's being introduced into "the wrong meta", more or less for the reasons PK is citing -my post got erased, but the content was pretty much stating the same idea-. Kyurem-B should be left in the meta, if only to have it around at a point where "worse" threats are banned from it. Otherwise we are left discussing of the why making little movements in a stagnant meta, which is not the topic in hand, and should be addressed directly to/by the OU Senate.

I'm starting to worry about the process because the stance of banning things "by principle", seems to be gaining strong support -won't address other cases, I'll keep on topic-. This is dangerously close to theorymon-banning, so I compel the voters to ban only if the poke is proving to be a danger for this metagame, which is already overpowered, and not some theoretical/ideal metagame that doesn't exist yet, simply because this was the idea behind this ladder test.

 

[bubbly]

Yep. We can't set the precedent of banning for a hypothetical balanced future metagame. What we need is to ensure that the suspect process is quick enough that the stuff actually responsible for the current bs can be removed soon.

Pocket EDIT: Honestly, though, how can a suspect phase last shorter than it is now? It used to be MUCH longer. I also highly doubt that we have number of suspects to last us for an entire year :o

 

[HabibsHotDogs]

I haven't had much time to actually ladder to 2k rating yet, but I have used a tailwind tornadus (and often whimsicott) + banded outrage set and I have to say... it absolutely DESTROYS whole teams... I thought my tailwind + haxorus was pretty cool but this set blasts haxorus out of the picture considering Kyurem-B can actually 2hko a variety of steels with outrage. A quick aside, it walks all over weather teams... Sun especially but it also destroys sand and rain fairly easily.

Now onto my opinion:

I agree that it currently looks like Kyurem-B, whilst it is strong, whilst it is yet another high powered wrecking ball and whilst it's more bulky than dragonite and stronger than Haxorus, it still is, remarkably, fitting within this meta.

Hypothetically, were Tornadus-T & Genesect to leave this current meta, then we might assume that Kyurem-B would be more significant as the pool of high powered (through speed, damage output, coverage or a combination of the 3) sweepers or wall breakers thins a little and THEN we might be able to assess whether it would still belong in this current meta.

So relating this to Kyurem-B, Kyurem-B is not detrimentally affecting the metagame, it isn't overcentralising, quite simply put and cannot be compared to Kingdra + drizzle before the ban or Excadrill + tyranitar after the ban.. Especially when it's not necessarily affiliated with a specific weather and struggles with all the "right" pokemon whilst it deals with all the "right" pokemon (in this case we can simplify it to genesect and tornados-t)

 

[FaceFaceFace]

Kyurem-B is in no way any more broken than Genesect. I would even argue that it's ability to 2HKO any physically uninvested steel with a Band + Adamant and destroy Genesect may actually be healthy to this metagame, by forcing slightly more defensively invested teams or the inclusion of not-so-broken checks, i.e Scizor, Intimidate Gyarados etc etc.

Then again, this is probably flawed/ wishful thinking.

 

[dragonuser]

Im still suspicious if thats actually the rain sweepers, and not Kyurem-B that's ruining the metagame. Hazards from Deo-D, Genesect, and rain sweepers are infinitely more "overpowered" than Kyurem-B will ever be, and they're the reason why the metagame is so stagnant / shitty. Kyurem-B is taking the fall for something it didn't do, which is kind of lame. I'd rather see it unbanned for now and see if its broken in the future, ideally after we suspect the threats that are infinitely more dangerous than Kyurem-B before kicking out of OU so quickly.

If it does get banned (ugh) hopefully it gets a fair test in the future, when people aren't so quick to impulse ban it. We're basically playing out the scene from Wicker Man. Kyurem-B is Nicholas Cage.

I think that most can agree that Kyurem-B is not broken, but this meta is very poor. During the last suspect test, with Garchomp, it was about as diverse as the BW2 meta has been imo. People can really only blame Kyurem-B for this change, whether the blame is proper or not is still unclear to me. That's why I am, and a bunch of other people, hoping that someone can prove us wrong and show that this metagame is in fact creative and isn't limited to 3 archetypes. I think that most people at this point think that Kyurem-B isn't broken but just creates/influences a very poor metagame.

 

[PK Gaming]

I think that most can agree that Kyurem-B is not broken, but this meta is very poor. During the last suspect test, with Garchomp, it was about as diverse as the BW2 meta has been imo. People can really only blame Kyurem-B for this change, whether the blame is proper or not is still unclear to me. That's why I am, and a bunch of other people, hoping that someone can prove us wrong and show that this metagame is in fact creative and isn't limited to 3 archetypes. I think that most people at this point think that Kyurem-B isn't broken but just creates/influences a very poor metagame.

It is important to note, however, that Kyurem-B's existence is not necessarily causal to a terrible metagame. During the last metagame, Lavos offense was practically the norm (6 offensive sweepers) and while a good deal of us deviated from the norm, I think it's safe to say that team style was incredible common. It was a good team, but nowhere near as troubling to deal with as the teams that exist now.

For this round, it seems like players leveled up their game and have picked up on the newest "it" style, which is HO Deoxys-D offense, rain offense and dragmag. These are team styles that have little or nothing to do with Kyurem-B. Dragmag is stupid, but Kyurem-B's removal will do little to placate its bull-shittey ness. (Haxorus is a decent replacement; after all the entire point of dragmag is to have dragons weaken their checks, and Haxorus is great at doing this). I've seen good Hail-teams pop up, but again, are we really going to fault Kyurem-B for making hail viable?? I've seen the assertion that Kyurem-B is practically impossible to counter in the hail, and that may be so, but is that really any different from any other "X" weather sweepers in their weather of choice?? Or hell, is it any different than the Pokemon that exist in BW OU2 already that are close to impossible to counter?

TL;DR: This new metagame doesn't necessarily exist because of Kyurem-B. It exists because players have smartened up and have decided to use some of the "ugliest" threats in BW OU2. Deoxys-D Offense, Genesect, Rain offense... these are the chief problems that exist within BW OU2 atm. Think back to BW1. We went through several rounds, and Garchomp / Excadrill only got banned in the later rounds. It wasn't because of any metagame changes, but a shift in the way the game was played and the emergency of popular teams.

TL;DRTL;DR: Shitty metagame. Kyurem-B. Mutually exclusive.

 

[Nachos]

I was thinking about what to say here, but I'm going to echo PKGaming's post and just say that the inclusion of Kyurem-B hasn't made suspect that much different to OU. Deo-D has been popular since BW2 started, so has rain offense. Dragons + Magnezone has always been viable, but Kyurem-B being unbanned has just brought to light how annoying it always has been. I think 'smartened up' is the perfect way describe the metagame now. As I said before, Kyurem-B is being scapegoated for what many see as the bigger problem - namely centralisation of the metagame. I question though, hasn't top tier play always been centralised, even during DPP and BW1? Top players tend to use up to 25 pokemon max, but as we haven't been able to witness this phenomneon on a constant basis (we only play tournies, one game at a time, unlike the ladder, where we play 20 games in a row) since the BW1 suspect testing ended, it's now more clear to us what the metagame is really like.

I wouldn't be surprised if this metagame sticks (minus Kyurem-B) now that people know what's good. Don't expect to see it on the OU ladder, just wait for the tour next week and look out for what everyone is using.

Finally, we don't know what OU is 'supposed to look like'. Whatever we knew in DPP and BW1 is history. BW2 is an entirely new metagame and we have nothing previous to compare to.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

A little question that I'm going to need a little tangent to ask.

Ive been playing in ubers to stall, and so far ironically, its pretty great, much easier than OU, I know its nuts. One thing you have to have for all ubers stall is a check to the outrage spamming dragons in ubers which you just can't counter. Basically, you sack a pokemon and then come in with like choice scarf Zekrom to revenge.

The main culprits in OU in for this same problem are Haxorus, Garchomp, Dragonite, Salamence, and now Kyrurem-B. What pokemon if any can be used in this suspect metagame to check all these pokemon in one swoop? Choice Scarf-Terrakion might seen ok, but relying on rock slide and/or stone edge isn't ideal, and it loses to Haxorus. Also, I haven't done the calcs, but I doubt the weaker Scarf Terrakion can always kill off dragonite either. Anything slower fails to check DD Salamence, like Genesect or scarf-mence, and ice shard only works on Dragonite, Salamence, Garchomp. I guess scarf-Garchomp can work maybe. So, what pokemon, if any, have you people found effective to check these dragons in OU?

 

[alexwolf]

Cobalion is a great all around check to any physical attacking dragon. He tanks Outrages all day, outspeeds any unboosted physical dragon, and can kill every single one of them. To handle DD Dragonite and Salamence, you have to sac something to Outrage (Cobalion can still tank a +1 Fire Punch from Dnite iirc), and then revenge kill.

 

[ToF]

after playing all of 15 games, i've concluded that this metagame is absolute shit, worse than all of the other metagames ive ever played, and that 9/15 teams I played were identical. some of this shit needs to get out of the tier.

 

[Leader Fox]

I just want to point out that if no one have seen a Kyurem-b really that often in the suspect metagame THEN HOW THE HELL IS ITS A BAD INFLUENCE if its not even seen in the suspect testing, i mean come on I'm not trying to be mean here but how can a pokemon make the metagame more or less bad when no one is using him that often, or is it just that everyone is just using the same team to play in the Ou ladder, i remember that i had played like 3 to 4 people again and again.If the metagame is bad and kyurem-b is not even that really seen then i don't see how he makes the metagame bad.

 

[SJCrew]

I think the consensus we're finding is that this was entirely the wrong time for Kyurem-B testing and that making us to choose at this point is unfair.

If people think the metagame around Kyurem is bad, then we really should be prepared to flood the ballet with abstains or appeal to the OU tier leaders that neither solution will produce an ideal OU environment.

 

[Bent1ey]

I think the consensus we're finding is that this was entirely the wrong time for Kyurem-B testing and that making us to choose at this point is unfair.

Even if this was true, this is hardly the moment to complain about what has already been done, there are many things about the current meta that merit to be discussing, but right now let's focus in what the Kyurem-B testing did during this ladder

This is not the place to discuss about further changes in the format.

If people think the metagame around Kyurem is bad, then we really should be prepared to flood the ballet with abstains or appeal to the OU tier leaders that neither solution will produce an ideal OU environment.

The suspect ladders aren't meant to "solve" the OU metagame, when the Sand Veil Garchomp later went up, everybody knew that it wasn't going to be the crux of the metagame. What this test can factually do is provide proof that Kyurem-B is not a dangerous threat in the current meta, or that it's effect is meaningful.

 

[PDC]

reqs

pokemon is not fun

Yeah, this metagame is pretty messed up. I really dislike it and it is not because of Kyurem - B, as it is not what is breaking the metagame or anything. I can 100% say that it is Deoxys - D and Genesect who are much bigger problems, Kyurem - B is nowhere near broken as these 2. Basically an echo of PKG's post, but after doing hundreds of matches I feel that this is pretty much what the metagame will look like when we do un-ban Kyurem - B, as barely anybody used it this test anyway.

 

[Heartgold]

I just want to point out that if no one have seen a Kyurem-b really that often in the suspect metagame THEN HOW THE HELL IS ITS A BAD INFLUENCE if its not even seen in the suspect testing, i mean come on I'm not trying to be mean here but how can a pokemon make the metagame more or less bad when no one is using him that often, or is it just that everyone is just using the same team to play in the Ou ladder, i remember that i had played like 3 to 4 people again and again.If the metagame is bad and kyurem-b is not even that really seen then i don't see how he makes the metagame bad.

Exactly my thoughts. Infact I've used it a few times and it's been pretty underwhelming. SR is common enough to dig at its health, other dragons and speedy threats can demolish it. Factor in breoom and scizor this dragon isn't in a league above other dragons in OU. Probably similar impact as other OU dragons have on the metagame and people have seem to made their choice up and go for dragons that simply do a role better for their team preference.