np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 7 - Ice Ice Baby

[capefeather]

I don't think that Black Kyurem makes hail more viable or that hail makes Black Kyurem much better. I'm not sure where people are even getting that idea. Anyway, I'm basically agreeing with PK here. There are Pokémon in this metagame that are significantly more suspect-worthy than Black Kyurem. So much for 170 Base Attack Outrage... I'd almost like to suggest moving on to the other stuff, but I think this metagame is one that needs to be remembered.

 

[McMeghan]

Yehhh, I'm done (Mynimalism).
I was doing pretty fine but the ending was kind of messy lol. At least I won't have to rush near the deadline.

 

[Aqualouis]

Done ! I'll edit this post tomorrow to talk a little bit about Kyurem-B

 

[TROP]

I'm obviously -HLG-Trop after my MLG alt had problems in the beggining.

I could post my opinions during this, but PDC's post pretty much sums up how I feel

Yeah, this metagame is pretty messed up. I really dislike it and it is not because of Kyurem - B, as it is not what is breaking the metagame or anything. I can 100% say that it is Deoxys - D and Genesect who are much bigger problems, Kyurem - B is nowhere near broken as these 2. Basically an echo of PKG's post, but after doing hundreds of matches I feel that this is pretty much what the metagame will look like when we do un-ban Kyurem - B, as barely anybody used it this test anyway.

And honestly, after the first 3 days I barely saw Kyurem-B at all.

While I appreciate giving tests to mons that never had one such as Kyurem-B and bringing down some ubers that are probably not broken in the current meta, I feel that should wait until the current issues get solved(Deo-D and Drizzle mostly, but I can understand reasons for Genesect).

Going to vote OU for this guy because he is not broken in the current meta. Maybe after some bans he might be broken, but that should be taken care of when the time comes. But I honestly doubt that will happen as from the current 3 guys that most people want at least to get a closer look, don't really affect his job at all(okay maybe Deo-D does because of its ease to get hazards and limit his great bulk).

 

[Pocket]

It's rather ironic that the people (wont throw out names) who are saying that the metagame is messed up were using valentine's Rain team, the team that made the suspect ladder shitty in the first place x_x

And guess what? Banning top-tier mons like Genesect and Deoxys-D wont change this. Skilled players will popularize a team, and people will steal it and spam it on the ladder. That's how it has been in Netbattle; that's how it has been in Shoddy; that's how it has been in PO; and it's happening in Showdown, now. People had fun in our last garchomp stage, because skilled players introduced us GeneSun, SR Terrakion, RP Landorus, Scarf Keldeo, etc all fun mons to use, no doubt! However, people decided to spam valentine's RMT or some small deviation of it, and now people are sick of it. Making OU weaker by removing powerful mons wont change this culture of stealing and spamming "good teams."

You don't find much of these problems in OU ladder, where the competition is terrible, but suspect ladder amplifies this problem, as people ladder for reqs. Rather than blaming the suspect metagame for being "messed up," heed to aldaron and PK Gaming's advice and actually MAKE YOUR OWN TEAM and be the innovators. Don't be a victim of the norm that has problems with the powerful threats - EXPLOIT the presence of these powerful threats instead. Stop being the 10-15 people that are spamming the same team -_- I've been doing fine laddering with a balanced weatherless team that doesn't run Genesect. Deoxys-D has lost lots of steam, so idk where the bitching is coming from - I've seen far more SR Terra Leads than Deoxys-D.

 

[Huntofthelion]

Got the requirements last night after trying out several different teams, both with and without Kyurem, so I'd like to post my thoughts on the suspect ladder and some other related things.

First, and most importantly, Kyurem-B did not break the OU metagame and therefore I would vote to release it from Ubers if the vote was taken today. I say today because the test isn't over and there might be some development that could change my view, but for now Kyurem-B just isn't game breaking. It's too slow to be a major threat to offensive teams without a scarf and it doesn't really have any good move to be locked into. Outrage is asking for a steel (RP Genesect) to come set up, or a faster scarfer / priority user to come in and revenge you. Fusion Bolt isn't really that strong without STAB and also lets some dangerous threats come in like RP Landorus and just in general anything with some bulk since like I said it's not that strong, and in most cases threats only need one turn to become a major pain to stop. The mixed sub set was easily the one that gave me the most trouble and the one I enjoyed the most, but it's generally just a kill against offensive teams and guaranteeing one kill doesn't really make something broken, or if it does we'd need to ban half of the metagame. Things have changed since DPP and I think Kyurem-B fits nicely into the current metagame. As other people have said it actually does some useful things for the metagame like being able to take on rain teams, thanks to a water resist, and requiring a different method of revenging then the other Dragons, thanks to not being weak to Ice so scarf Genesect needs a Steel move and Mamoswine doesn't do that much. Being weak to Stealth Rock, Bullet Punch, and Mach Punch is a real downer and that was a pretty limiting factor on Kyurem-B from what I saw. Bottom line is he's really bulky, really strong, and fast enough to outrun most defensive teams, but his typing sucks defensively for the most part and he's easily revenged by some common threats like Scizor and Breloom.

Secondly is that this metagame is really almost identical to Overused. Kyurem does not centralize at all, other then the fact that he's a shiny new toy and people want to try him out, and his impact is kind of disappointing to be honest. The reason suspect looks and feels so much staler than OU is that there are less users and generally a higher quality of players on suspect. In an hour on suspect I had way more quality opponents then I'll get in 5-6 hours worth of OU laddering. I also played the same people several times and so it feels like I played their team a bunch, but it's only because there weren't a lot of people looking for matches. A lot of the good players I faced were using really similar teams and most of them ran a bulky offense type of rain team or Deo-D and five sweepers, but I also played some good sun teams and drag-mag teams. With the exception of the last two, Kyurem-B doesn't really add anything to those teams and even in the last two he's not that special. If anything he made the metagame a little bit more diverse by encouraging some hail teams, which were not bad at all and really showcased mixed Kyurem at it's best. Please don't blame Kyurem-B for making the suspect metagame the way it is because like a lot of people before me have said he is far from the most threatening thing within this metagame.

As to what is threatening in this metagame I'd have to say I was most impressed by Deo-D. He's really annoying to deal with if you don't have an easy way to OHKO him or a spinner, and he's pretty bulky and most spinners aren't that impressive for anything other than spinning so that's kind of a bummer. He's basically guaranteed at least SR and often he'll also grab spikes, which adds up really fast since the metagame is generally pretty fast paced and everything hits hard. I used him for a bunch of matches and either a) I got up Hazards or b) they had some odd anti deo thing or I lost a magic coat war. Genesect can sometimes OHKO but from what I saw it's not a guarantee and no one wants their choice scarf Genesect locked into something other than U-turn on turn one. Speaking of Genesect he really does the same things he can do in OU it's just that I found the Rock Polish set, by far his best in my opinion, to be much more common on suspect which shined a better light on how dangerous he is. Scizor saw some more usage thanks to being able to threaten Kyurem-B and people I guess remembering that Scizor is really good and not outclassed by Genesect since they do completely different things. Sash Terrakion was also really common but I can't really figure that one out since it really wasn't impressive and I feel like not using double dance Terrakion is wasting it.

Overall it's just the OU metagame and I really don't see how people can make a case for Kyurem-B causing any of the issues that I've seen posted in this thread about the metagame, but I would like to hear more takes of that opinion so I can at least understand that side.

 

[yee]

It's rather ironic that the people (wont throw out names) who are saying that the metagame is messed up were using valentine's Rain team, the team that made the suspect ladder shitty in the first place x_x

And guess what? Banning top-tier mons like Genesect and Deoxys-D wont change this. Skilled players will popularize a team, and people will steal it and spam it on the ladder. That's how it has been in Netbattle; that's how it has been in Shoddy; that's how it has been in PO; and it's happening in Showdown, now. People had fun in our last garchomp stage, because skilled players introduced us GeneSun, SR Terrakion, RP Landorus, Scarf Keldeo, etc all fun mons to use, no doubt! However, people decided to spam valentine's RMT or some small deviation of it, and now people are sick of it. Making OU weaker by removing powerful mons wont change this culture of stealing and spamming "good teams."

You don't find much of these problems in OU ladder, where the competition is terrible, but suspect ladder amplifies this problem, as people ladder for reqs. Rather than blaming the suspect metagame for being "messed up," heed to aldaron and PK Gaming's advice and actually MAKE YOUR OWN TEAM and be the innovators. Don't be a victim of the norm that has problems with the powerful threats - EXPLOIT the presence of these powerful threats instead. Stop being the 10-15 people that are spamming the same team -_- I've been doing fine laddering with a balanced weatherless team that doesn't run Genesect. Deoxys-D has lost lots of steam, so idk where the bitching is coming from - I've seen far more SR Terra Leads than Deoxys-D.

I think it's pretty unfair to say "everyone" who is saying the metagame is poor can be found laddering with Valentine's team. I would feel good about my chances on a bet that more of them have felt that way for a majority of BW and haven't even seen the RMT. Me and many others think Genesect and Deoxys-D are not capable of existing in a balanced metagame and give different reasons than "this ladder is bad". I've played the game for myself with my own teams (I've used SR Terra a ton obviously) and I still think Deo-D in particular needs to leave as a necessity and that in a small amount of time I will arrive to the same conclusion with Genesect.

Pocket EDIT: sorry I didn't mean EVERYONE, only people who are bitching about the ladder as their main arguments

 

[undisputed]

Got reqs.

I talked a lot of trash after hax while laddering; you know if you didn't deserve my wrath. To the rest of the haxers, fuck you!

Essentially, I'm kind of undecided right now. While I don't think Kyurem-b is very good, it's the only thing that changed to cause such a bad metagame this round. Perhaps everything just settled down and the metagame would've been horrible anyway. Who knows. I'll probably vote to allow Kyurem-b into OU on principle. I'd like to hit rock bottom so-to-speak and then start banning stuff. Minds as well start with everything that isn't broken in OU, I guess.

As for "Valentine's Team," it's pretty much Phil's frontier team... 5.5 / 6 Pokemon are exactly the same as Phil's.

Big ups to PDC, I love that dude.

 

[Lady Alex]

Made requirements

reqs

This metagame is so terrible. I'm going to have to disagree with Pocket regarding other teams simply taking the place of the tornadus-t/genesect teams we currently see. Sure, There will be new things that come into the spotlight, but it doesn't change the fact that Tornadus-T, Genesect, and Deoxys-D are unhealthy for the metagame. I don't think I've seen as many people as dissatisfied with the metagame since Thundurus's reign in OU several months ago. It's really easy to say "be innovative," but the reality is that Tornadus-T, Deoxys-D, and Genesect are such a dominating force in the metagame that the number of options you have to build around them is very limited because of their ability to easily u-turn out. They're different from Scizor in that Scizor is very slow, and being stuck on a bullet punch is a very frightening prospect right now. Tornadus-T also has access to regenerator, allowing it to greatly mitigate its SR weakness.

Testing Kyurem-B was a mistake. The current overpowered threats in the metagame should be addressed way before Kyurem-B is given a shot. It's very time inefficient to test Kyurem-B and then test Deoxys, tornadus, and Genesect, only to find out that Kyurem-B is broken with one or more of those 3 gone.There's no way I'm going to vote to allow Kyurem-B in OU before the three pokemon I discussed are tested.

 

[Pocket]

undisputed, it doesn't matter whose team it is - my point still stands. Also shitty suspect ladder =/= Kyurem-B is Uber; that's exactly what i'm talking about. Your reasoning is simply nonsensical.

Lady Alex, people agree that Kyurem-B is not a threat in the OU metagame. Terrakion, Keldeo, Thundurus-T, RP Landorus, QD Volcarona, Salamence, DD Dragonite, Garchomp, and Latios are far more dangerous. Do you believe those are broken, too? If no, then how can Kyurem-B possibly broken even in the absence of Genesect, Deoxys-D, and Tornadus-T?

 

[Lady Alex]

l.

Lady Alex, people agree that Kyurem-B is not a threat in the OU metagame. Terrakion, Keldeo, Thundurus-T, RP Landorus, QD Volcarona, Salamence, DD Dragonite, Garchomp, and Latios are far more dangerous. Do you believe those are broken, too? If no, then how can Kyurem-B possibly broken even in the absence of Genesect, Deoxys-D, and Tornadus-T?

I'm not implying that it will be broken. I'm commenting on how it's silly to test Kyurem-B in the OU metagame when it's very feasible that at least one of Deo/Torn/Gene are going to be up for suspect soon. The metagame in which we're testing Kyurem-B is not necessarily an accurate measure of its effectiveness in a metagame without all three of those pokemon present. I agree that the pokemon you listed are definitely more threatening, but, nonetheless, the timing of its test is inappropriate and I think that if it's going to be allowed in OU, it should be after other, more significant, issues of the metagame are addressed.

 

[undisputed]

undisputed, it doesn't matter whose team it is - my point still stands. Also shitty suspect ladder =/= Kyurem-B is Uber; that's exactly what i'm talking about. Your reasoning is simply nonsensical.

Lady Alex, people agree that Kyurem-B is not a threat in the OU metagame. Terrakion, Keldeo, Thundurus-T, RP Landorus, QD Volcarona, Salamence, DD Dragonite, Garchomp, and Latios are far more dangerous. Do you believe those are broken, too? If no, then how can Kyurem-B possibly broken even in the absence of Genesect, Deoxys-D, and Tornadus-T?

lol, you clearly didn't read my post. Or didn't understand it. Not sure which. There was no part aimed at you, first of all. On top of that, I was even agreeing with you. I literally said that the suspect ladder could just be the Garchomp meta settling down. I also said I'd vote Kyurem-b OU. Both statements agree with you.

Either do your moderating job well, or don't do it at all. Just skimming my post and assuming I disagree with you is ridiculous and one of the shortcomings of this forum.

Pocket EDIT:

While I don't think Kyurem-b is very good, it's the only thing that changed to cause such a bad metagame this round.

- You said Kyurem-B is the only change that caused a bad metagame. It's true that it wasn't your main point, but it does imply a flawed reasoning that is holding you back from making that decisive "Kyu-B is OU" decision.

And I am doing a fine job moderating this forum, thank you ;)

undisputed edit: great job taking that sentence out of context. The next sentence says "Perhaps everything just settled down and the metagame would've been horrible anyway."

 

[Lavos]

undisputed seems to be one of the few who gets it, the reasoning isn't "lol let's introduce more broken stuff into the metagame", it's "hmmm, the metagame is already broken, let's introduce more broken stuff to counteract the preexisting broken stuff before later banning all the broken stuff". Kyurem-B is overpowered, just like Genesect, Tornadus-T, Rain and Sun. Until we start banning the other ones, cube can stay.

Big ups to PDC, I love that dude.

 

[PttP]

not banning something thats broken just because other shit is broken too is a horrible argument. you sound like a fucking child whining about doing something wrong and getting in trouble while other kids were doing the same thing.

seriously what do you gain from not banning something broken. if you are in the standpoint of not banning kyu-b just because other stuff is broken, then what happens if you get your wish in getting the other shit like genesect and deo-d banned too? then kyu-b is just even more broken because the other counteracting broken shit is banned, and that is yet another testing period we have to use. youve essentially wasted a shitload of time because you were crying over other broken stuff.

this test is about kyurem-b being broken or not, not whether or not it is part of a broken wheel of pokemon for fucks sake

edit: damn that vulgarity in that post was extreme

edit2: an ou mod better not reply to this post by editing it i swear to god

 

[Lavos]

not banning something thats broken just because other shit is broken too is a horrible argument. you sound like a fucking child whining about doing something wrong and getting in trouble while other kids were doing the same thing.

seriously what do you gain from not banning something broken. if you are in the standpoint of not banning kyu-b just because other stuff is broken, then what happens if you get your wish in getting the other shit like genesect and deo-d banned too? then kyu-b is just even more broken because the other counteracting broken shit is banned. youve essentially wasted a shitload of time because you were crying over other broken stuff.

this test is about kyurem-b being broken or not, not whether or not it is part of a broken wheel of pokemon for fucks sake

That's an extremely simplistic view of a complex subject right there. Kyurem-B is broken, but other stuff is broken too, and Kyurem-B balances out the broken stuff, so we unban it now, then when the broken stuff (hopefully) gets banned later, we ban Kyurem-B and the metagame is half decent again. No reason at all to keep it banned right now when it's actually a quick fix to an otherwise puzzling problem. And, for the record, I'd much rather have a metagame where weatherless HO dominates than a metagame where you have to run one of 5 viable weather starters to win.

 

[ToF]

this entire test is a waste of a period you dumbass pttp (ily). if there's other stuff thats clearly broken, why not sweep that shit outta the tier first before jumping the gun on quite frankly a useless pokemon that no one cares about in ou (in comparison to garchomp, genesect, keldeo, insert other broken pokemon, etc)

 

[PttP]

That's an extremely simplistic view of a complex subject right there. Kyurem-B is broken, but other stuff is broken too, and Kyurem-B balances out the broken stuff, so we unban it now, then when the broken stuff (hopefully) gets banned later, we ban Kyurem-B and the metagame is half decent again. No reason at all to keep it banned right now when it's actually a quick fix to an otherwise puzzling problem. And, for the record, I'd much rather have a metagame where weatherless HO dominates than a metagame where you have to run one of 5 viable weather starters to win.

thats all it is - a quick fix. your logic just has kyurem-b wasting time in ou. i dont see how it balances out any of the other broken stuff - literally everything that is being debated as broken demolishes kyu-b in itself. its an simplistic view because the topic itself is simple. i was always told to ban something if that pokemon was deemed to be broken, and unless the definition of a banning has changed since i was first told that at the beginning of bw, then kyurem-b should be banned if it is deemed broken. the metagame outlook should not have an effect on its banning

this entire test is a waste of a period you dumbass pttp (ily). if there's other stuff thats clearly broken, why not sweep that shit outta the tier first before jumping the gun on quite frankly a useless pokemon that no one cares about in ou (in comparison to garchomp, genesect, keldeo, insert other broken pokemon, etc)

if its useless then it dont need a ban :o

 

[Pocket]

"Broken stuff balancing out broken stuff," argument is a terrible logic that's been bounced around here. If the metagame is balanced and diverse, then it's not broken! To me, "broken stuff balancing out broken stuff," simply is an excuse to ban top threats that you don't want to face anymore. You should play UU, because you will never be satisfied with the power level of BW OU (esp if you think Kyu-B is "broken stuff" -_____-). We aren't gonna dumb it down for ya.

That said, I'm not saying that the current OU is perfect, which is why we resumed suspect testing, and will continue on testing. The timing of bringing down Kyurem-B is irrelevant tbh, and it just gives us more time to assess the likes of Genesect and Tornadus-T in the current metagame.

 

[Lady Alex]

That said, I'm not saying that the current OU is perfect, which is why we resumed suspect testing, and will continue on testing. The timing of bringing down Kyurem-B is irrelevant tbh, and it just gives us more time to assess the likes of Genesect and Tornadus-T in the current metagame.

Do we really need more time to assess them? The metagame hasn't had any significant changes that would change anyone's stance on whether they find them broken in OU or perfectly legitimate. They've been discussed into the ground, really =/

 

[Lavos]

You should play UU, because you will never be satisfied with the power level of BW OU (esp if you think Kyu-B is "broken stuff" -_____-). We aren't gonna dumb it down for ya.

Are you kidding me? Please tell me base 170 Attack, STAB Outrage, a movepool that gets less credit than it deserves, and respectable 95 base Speed isn't strong enough for you. Kyurem-B is beyond "broken stuff", it falls under the category of "really broken stuff that could only exist in BW2 OU". Don't tell us to go play another tier when we're some of the few trying to take active steps to fix this one so it can be a better tier for the masses.

 

[yee]

"Broken stuff balancing out broken stuff," argument is a terrible logic that's been bounced around here. If the metagame is balanced and diverse, then it's not broken! To me, "broken stuff balancing out broken stuff," simply is an excuse to ban top threats that you don't want to face anymore. You should play UU, because you will never be satisfied with the power level of BW OU (esp if you think Kyu-B is "broken stuff" -_____-). We aren't gonna dumb it down for ya.

I am repeating for the last time that me and the "many others" are not banning things because we are annoyed to face them, we see them as broken things that cannot exist in a balanced metagame. We have given the reasoning behind this, and anyone thinking Kyurem-B is broken stuff has their reasons too. If this has to be repeated again then obviously this forum has some shortcomings.

 

[chaos 9]

Just adding my two cents, I have seen relatively few KyuB's in this metagame. He seems to be great with team support, but so are lots of threats in OU. His stats seem insane, but he is easily dealt with, and in my opinion there are better choices for dragons which outspeed him, have better movepools, or better boosting options.

However, I have to say that laddering to reqs is highly tedious. The offensive explosive nature of the metagame dominated by rain and HO teams is highly stale and boring. Crits are magnified to the point where one crit decides a game due to the fagility and speed creep in most teams. I've come across scarf Tornadus-T multiple times. Good God, if that's not insane speed creep, I don't know what is. Good luck running stall.

That said, I don't think KyuB is broken. It just adds to the slippery slope of a metagame that is quickly becoming a speed and power arms race.

 

[Pocket]

ZEHAHAHAHA, Lavos, have you been reading what other users have posted? They said Kyurem-B is far from broken - unless your "fix" is to ban everything remotely good in OU like RP Landorus, Keldeo, Terrakion, Garchomp, Latios, Volcarona, Salamence, Dragonite, etc etc etc, I cannot fathom how you ever reached the conclusion of Kyu-B as "broken stuff."

If anything, Kyurem-B is an exemplar of how bad typing can totally ruin one's physical bulk no matter how impressive the stats (Fighting-, Dragon-, Steel-, and Rock-type weakness isn't a good formula for physical bulk, lmao), and how limited movepool can totally ruin one's potential to overpower the metagame (95 base Spe would be terrific... if it had Dragon Dance).

You are not the only one trying to "fix this metagame" - so Idk where you were going with that lol.

I edit posts when it's not worth cluttering the thread with Pocket's posts / to help answer simple questions / warn people without bumping a thread or infracting people, etc. No, the only person behaving like jerk right now is you.

yee: Define balanced metagame. Also notice that I never said the current meta is perfect, so keep that in mind when responding. Please don't blame the forum just because people don't agree with you.

 

[PDC]

woah guys whats with all the love

I really rather continue the testing, and by a longshot too. I mean Kyurem-B is, as it stands in my eyes, not broken. Although I guess you could argue that it is because of the bulk / power / other stuff it is in no way a broken threat in the metagame today. I really don't think we should reset the unaban even when we take care of the "broken stuff" later on, as even with everything running around I feel it should stay a lot longer than the real broken stuff will stay.

 

[Lavos]

ZEHAHAHAHA, Lavos, have you been reading what other users have posted? They said Kyurem-B is far from broken - unless your "fix" is to ban everything remotely good in OU like RP Landorus, Keldeo, Terrakion, Garchomp, Latios, Volcarona, Salamence, Dragonite, etc etc etc, I cannot fathom how you ever reached the conclusion of Kyu-B as "broken stuff."

Yeah, I read other people's posts, unlike some. There hasn't been an overwhelming consensus that Kyurem-B is broken, seems like more of a mixed reaction to me, and of course I'm going to value my opinion over a lot of others because I've likely had more experience in this metagame than they have. All the Pokemon you randomly list off aren't anything I would consider banning, I actually voted to unban Chomp, so uh yeah. The stuff you don't list that do deserve bans are Genesect, Politoed, and Ninetales, along with Kyu-B, of course...170 base Attack being a bit too much for OU.

If anything, Kyurem-B is an exemplar of how bad typing can totally ruin one's physical bulk no matter how impressive the stats (Fighting-, Dragon-, Steel-, and Rock-type weakness isn't a good formula for physical bulk, lmao), and how limited movepool can totally ruin one's potential to overpower the metagame (95 base Spe would be terrific... if it had Dragon Dance).

Yeah, stuff lacking physical bulk that still resists Water, Grass, Electric, etc., and still has great special bulk can potentially still make it in this metagame. Example...hmmm...how about Latios? Or maybe Chansey/Blissey? Please...this argument gets you nowhere. Kyurem-B gets at least one kill, every single game you use it.

You are not the only one trying to "fix this metagame" - so Idk where you were going with that lol.

Yeah I understand other people have good intentions but when they're flat-out wrong about the majority of things they're posting about it doesn't make for a healthy metagame if they're contributing to the tiering process.