I love this too, and think I have a good enough concept of balence to help approve moves.
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Data ASB Feedback & Game Issues Thread (New Proposal Handling System in OP)
- Thread starter Seven Deadly Sins
- Start date
- Status
The approvers would make sure it makes sense. For example, my PorygonZ would probably be allowed to learn Data Beam, but not something called Nature's fury or anything like that.
I also have mixed feelings about this. While I think this is a really cool idea, as people have said, the approving system would probably be overcomplicated, hell on the approvers to constantly meet up (even if its through IRC) and discuss each individual custom move for each individual damn Pokemon that the person owns, etc. For example, I own 38 Pokemon, and I'd probably want each of them to get a custom move. How is it fair to the approvers to have them go through 38 separate moves (and god help us if MK decides to start making custom moves...) for one person alone, especially when every single ASBer will be jumping on the bandwagon as soon as they can think up of something?
Also, there really isn't any guidelines as to where to draw the line for creativity of custom moves as of yet. Take for example my Weavile, Dovahkiin. Would I be able to give him a Dragon Shout due to the nickname, or do I have to stick with "It's a Weavile, so it can only do... Weavile stuff, I guess."
Also, there really isn't any guidelines as to where to draw the line for creativity of custom moves as of yet. Take for example my Weavile, Dovahkiin. Would I be able to give him a Dragon Shout due to the nickname, or do I have to stick with "It's a Weavile, so it can only do... Weavile stuff, I guess."
Deck et al have been trying hard to make weak moves better, giving every move a use in ASB. Signature moves counter that point entirely.
06:54 IAR I cannot agree more
And lastly...the judgement of god.
09:01 Onion_Bubs I give signature moves a 2 out of 10 right now.
06:54 IAR I cannot agree more
And lastly...the judgement of god.
09:01 Onion_Bubs I give signature moves a 2 out of 10 right now.
Never, not in a million years, absolutely not, no way Jose, no chance Lance, nyet, negatory, mm-mm, nuh-uh, uh-uh! And of course my own personal favourite of all time, man falling off of a cliff: NNNOOOOOOOOOoooooooo.......
This pretty much kills the idea of them ever becoming a thing. Why go out of our way of creating a complex, & frankly, stupid & unnecessary system, when we have Combinations, which is already codified, balanced, & well, a part of ASB?
tl;dr, This will never be approved. Never.
If Signature moves are off the table, what can be done to keep the pokemon of individuals distinct? Natures are currently the only thing to distinguish between 2 fully, or almost fully, trained mons. In the games there are EVs and move choices, but what can be done in CAP ASB? I see nothing but sig. moves, but any other option would work. Combos help moves be original, but as more and more people gaimn built up mons, something else is needed.
/me brings attention back to substitution debate
By the exact same logic that "IF X, THEN Y, pushing actions back if Z was subbed for" is more than one condition, thus two subs (it can be more neatly rewritten as:
"IF X AND Z is NOT subbed for, THEN Y"
"IF X AND Z is subbed for, THEN Y and push actions back"),
"IF X, THEN Y the first time, Z the second time" is more than one condition and is also multiple subs, because it is essentially:
"IF X AND it is for the first time, THEN Y"
"IF X AND it is for the second time, THEN Z"
idk if this was relevant, sense-making or coherent, but I'm pretty sure this is something that should be considered if we are making "IF X, THEN Y, pushing actions back if Z was subbed for" two subs
By the exact same logic that "IF X, THEN Y, pushing actions back if Z was subbed for" is more than one condition, thus two subs (it can be more neatly rewritten as:
"IF X AND Z is NOT subbed for, THEN Y"
"IF X AND Z is subbed for, THEN Y and push actions back"),
"IF X, THEN Y the first time, Z the second time" is more than one condition and is also multiple subs, because it is essentially:
"IF X AND it is for the first time, THEN Y"
"IF X AND it is for the second time, THEN Z"
idk if this was relevant, sense-making or coherent, but I'm pretty sure this is something that should be considered if we are making "IF X, THEN Y, pushing actions back if Z was subbed for" two subs
I really don't think substitutions need these "codifications". It's already stupid hard to sub against a pokemon with 60 or so moves without what is inevitably going to be a nerf to substitution rules.
As for Subway's proposal. I was going to support his position, and intended to do so earlier, but looking at the posts I agree this is unlikely to work. That said, it could be possible to make signature moves legal, but make them optional like sequences were before.
As for Subway's proposal. I was going to support his position, and intended to do so earlier, but looking at the posts I agree this is unlikely to work. That said, it could be possible to make signature moves legal, but make them optional like sequences were before.
No one likes sig-moves :(
Anyways if only to allow this to thrive I would be open to allowing them to be optional (I.E. sig moves = on/off)
Also to sorta test signature moves, objection and I are having a signature move 3v3 singles battle. We each approved the others moves before anything else, so if you want to know what I (we) have in mind, keep an eye out for that battle.
Anyways if only to allow this to thrive I would be open to allowing them to be optional (I.E. sig moves = on/off)
Also to sorta test signature moves, objection and I are having a signature move 3v3 singles battle. We each approved the others moves before anything else, so if you want to know what I (we) have in mind, keep an eye out for that battle.
Here's a thought -
Why not allow a pokemon to pick a handful of moves as "Favored" moves, and receive a small bonus to using those moves (ex: lower en cost, higher damage, higher effect chance, etc.), with scaling bonuses depending on how many moves are "Favored," with perhaps even the possibility of Favoring specific parts of a move (once again, lower en cost, higher damage, etc). This might make things a bit more complicated, but it would help add individuality to pokemons, as well as help alleviate the issue of mons with HUGEASS MOVEPOOLS facing off against mons of far more modest movepools.
Thoughts?
Why not allow a pokemon to pick a handful of moves as "Favored" moves, and receive a small bonus to using those moves (ex: lower en cost, higher damage, higher effect chance, etc.), with scaling bonuses depending on how many moves are "Favored," with perhaps even the possibility of Favoring specific parts of a move (once again, lower en cost, higher damage, etc). This might make things a bit more complicated, but it would help add individuality to pokemons, as well as help alleviate the issue of mons with HUGEASS MOVEPOOLS facing off against mons of far more modest movepools.
Thoughts?
As i said,i really see their purpose,and i certanly agree that it would help making every pokemon more ''unique''.
Being able to turn them on/off would be a great way to balance that,maybe it is limited to 1 or 2 pokemon per match? My main concern is that the system would be probably abused to give their pokemon an extra,extremely powerfull coverage move (think Hidden-Power,but stronger),plus,i feel that it can be abused without too much problems in general,but thats what the approvers for that are for,i suppose.
Nyttyn adds an interesting point though,some move-polls are flat out massive.
Not allowing them to be used on combos (unless said move is being combo'ed with itself) would be an interesting option as well.
Overral,i do think they can work and deserve at least taking a look and even doing a few test battles,but my feelings are mixed at best.
We just cant give a good physical STAB to Flareon though *trollface*
And....i hope my imperfect English didnt screw up my post (Be it regarding meanings or grammar).
Being able to turn them on/off would be a great way to balance that,maybe it is limited to 1 or 2 pokemon per match? My main concern is that the system would be probably abused to give their pokemon an extra,extremely powerfull coverage move (think Hidden-Power,but stronger),plus,i feel that it can be abused without too much problems in general,but thats what the approvers for that are for,i suppose.
Nyttyn adds an interesting point though,some move-polls are flat out massive.
Not allowing them to be used on combos (unless said move is being combo'ed with itself) would be an interesting option as well.
Overral,i do think they can work and deserve at least taking a look and even doing a few test battles,but my feelings are mixed at best.
We just cant give a good physical STAB to Flareon though *trollface*
And....i hope my imperfect English didnt screw up my post (Be it regarding meanings or grammar).
Guys, take into account that just because a Pokemon has a huge movepool, does not mean that it is impossible to beat. A Static Duclohm can beat a Simipour whether it has 21 moves or 61. What I am trying to say is that all you benefit from with having a large movepool is the fact that you have more options. Other than that, nothing else.
That said, what can be done to make each Pokemon unique bar nature? I think we have already done that through the usage of Nicknames. :o
That said, what can be done to make each Pokemon unique bar nature? I think we have already done that through the usage of Nicknames. :o
Adding one move to a "massive" movepool will have very little change on its "hugeness" IMO.
Also I think being able to turn it on/off is a very fair way to cater to people who are for this or against this.
@NyttyN- I beleieve for this truly to take full effect, the moves should be new because boosting certain moves could be just as broken as giving new ones lol!
Also since everyone is so worried about sig moves being broken, go take a look in the battle tower. Obj's and my battle specifically. If you look at the moves, none of them are broken, none give "extra coverage" and in some cases they ENCOURAGE other moves to be used. I honestly don't think sig moves will be broken at all.
Anyways probably going to add "ability to turn on/off" to the original proposal tomorrow, also another topic of discussion.
Should all sig moves have to be STAB?
(all of them are in Obj vs me lol)
Just another thing to discuss!
Also I think being able to turn it on/off is a very fair way to cater to people who are for this or against this.
@NyttyN- I beleieve for this truly to take full effect, the moves should be new because boosting certain moves could be just as broken as giving new ones lol!
Also since everyone is so worried about sig moves being broken, go take a look in the battle tower. Obj's and my battle specifically. If you look at the moves, none of them are broken, none give "extra coverage" and in some cases they ENCOURAGE other moves to be used. I honestly don't think sig moves will be broken at all.
Anyways probably going to add "ability to turn on/off" to the original proposal tomorrow, also another topic of discussion.
Should all sig moves have to be STAB?
(all of them are in Obj vs me lol)
Just another thing to discuss!
Don't forget custom sprites!
But neither of those affects battles.
Actually, one of the ones I made isn't STAB, but it encourages the use of STAB.
Anyway, I just wanted to point out another problem that can arise with signature moves: SDS' calculator (when it eventually gets finished) won't have the data for the signature moves or any unique effects of signature moves. Considering that the calculator is supposed to be the ultimate reffing tool ...
I like the idea, though I would make it so that it couldn't be more powerful than anything else in the game. (i.e., differently typed Outrage OK, drawback-free 11 power NOT OK)
Or you could make it so that every USER has a sig move, and any mons that it makes sense to have access to it could get it. That could add some interesting twists.
Or you could make it so that every USER has a sig move, and any mons that it makes sense to have access to it could get it. That could add some interesting twists.
I've already answered the last question, (adds individuality to mons), and many of the reasons here are not backed up at all. (what makes niche moves and sig moves incompatible?)
Even if people think it might be overpowered, you can always make it a toggle off for RPs, gyms, and other official things. There is no reason why sig moves cannot help this vision to grow unless we stop it. (and a statement in the DAT about how things work currently does not mean they should always work thus)
Let me put it like this.
Have we ever implemented something because it "sounds cool"?
Do you think we do not have enough methods to distinguish one Pokemon from another already?
Do you think that CAP ASB is not complex enough already?
More importantly, what would you think DK would say if he ever saw this?
To answer these, we have never really implemented anything, because "sounds cool". In fact, doing that would be the last thing that we should be thinking about. I mean, honestly. We already have enough ways to customise a Pokemon through Nature, Custom Sprites, & Nicknames. Of course, only Natures have an impact on battles, BUT why should we implement Signature Moves? From all the pro sig-move arguments I have heard, they all translate to "Hey, this Signature Moves thing sounds cool, we should implement it & use Test Battles to help our cause!" "It sounds cool" is not an argument, or to be precise, a very poor argument.
CAP ASB is a very complex game. This is a very data heavy ASB, relative to other ASB's, since we have to factor in stats, move data, turning ASB into a Numbers game. We also have extra levels of complexity, through the combinations system, the RP's, the failed Sequences proposal, & not to mention, Roleplayed actions. Signature Moves add too much complexity, it can impact the game in a negative way, it can cause power/armour creep, it can completely kill play-styles, & no matter how much users want to deny it, everyone will try to make their moves as OP as they can whilst still being balanced, so they can gain an inherent advantage in whatever they are doing. Finally, you never see "signature moves" in the Anime, so why should we start now?
Yarnus, you say that the anti sig-move arguments have no evidence. Yet, we actually have more than enough evidence to prove that this is incredibly unlikely to be implemented, if at all.
What will change from now? Why combo, when you can use Signature moves which have far less drawbacks than combos! Not to mention, more cost efficient & more OP?
Will this be toggle-able? Could be, but incredibly unlikely. After all, who am I to stop users from doing these signature move test battles?
tl;dr, Signature Moves - Not going to happen, no matter how hard you try.
Have we ever implemented something because it "sounds cool"?
Do you think we do not have enough methods to distinguish one Pokemon from another already?
Do you think that CAP ASB is not complex enough already?
More importantly, what would you think DK would say if he ever saw this?
To answer these, we have never really implemented anything, because "sounds cool". In fact, doing that would be the last thing that we should be thinking about. I mean, honestly. We already have enough ways to customise a Pokemon through Nature, Custom Sprites, & Nicknames. Of course, only Natures have an impact on battles, BUT why should we implement Signature Moves? From all the pro sig-move arguments I have heard, they all translate to "Hey, this Signature Moves thing sounds cool, we should implement it & use Test Battles to help our cause!" "It sounds cool" is not an argument, or to be precise, a very poor argument.
CAP ASB is a very complex game. This is a very data heavy ASB, relative to other ASB's, since we have to factor in stats, move data, turning ASB into a Numbers game. We also have extra levels of complexity, through the combinations system, the RP's, the failed Sequences proposal, & not to mention, Roleplayed actions. Signature Moves add too much complexity, it can impact the game in a negative way, it can cause power/armour creep, it can completely kill play-styles, & no matter how much users want to deny it, everyone will try to make their moves as OP as they can whilst still being balanced, so they can gain an inherent advantage in whatever they are doing. Finally, you never see "signature moves" in the Anime, so why should we start now?
Yarnus, you say that the anti sig-move arguments have no evidence. Yet, we actually have more than enough evidence to prove that this is incredibly unlikely to be implemented, if at all.
If the creator of CAP ASB wants combos instead of signature moves, then it will almost certainly be a lost cause in trying to convince him in back-flipping on his vision.
What will change from now? Why combo, when you can use Signature moves which have far less drawbacks than combos! Not to mention, more cost efficient & more OP?
Will this be toggle-able? Could be, but incredibly unlikely. After all, who am I to stop users from doing these signature move test battles?
tl;dr, Signature Moves - Not going to happen, no matter how hard you try.
Combos and Sig moves can coexist.
If I give my Snorlax Power nap, a move that recovers energy, I'm still going to use combos like Giga Impact + Heavy Slam against Rock types, or Focus Punch + Ice Punch in your gym. And the Quote from the DAT is descriptive, not prescriptive.
I still think there should be more than natures, and that is the positive reason, not "it sounds cool"
If I give my Snorlax Power nap, a move that recovers energy, I'm still going to use combos like Giga Impact + Heavy Slam against Rock types, or Focus Punch + Ice Punch in your gym. And the Quote from the DAT is descriptive, not prescriptive.
I still think there should be more than natures, and that is the positive reason, not "it sounds cool"
Let's raise another issue to take our minds off of Signature Moves before it creates a giant rift in the community, shall we?
We all know I am an advocate of weather. So it's no surprise this is coming from me...
Why do weather rocks only allow weather-based abilities to be activated at no EN cost? IMO, that's awfully limiting, making the only real users of the items Ninetales, Politoed, Abomasnow, Hippowdon, and Tyranitar. (And Tyranitar usually uses a better item anyway.)
So, here's my proposal. That the general gist of the weather rocks changes from this:
to THIS:
Thoughts? I personally believe this change will open up usage of the weather rocks to many more Pokemon than just the weather channelers.
We all know I am an advocate of weather. So it's no surprise this is coming from me...
Why do weather rocks only allow weather-based abilities to be activated at no EN cost? IMO, that's awfully limiting, making the only real users of the items Ninetales, Politoed, Abomasnow, Hippowdon, and Tyranitar. (And Tyranitar usually uses a better item anyway.)
So, here's my proposal. That the general gist of the weather rocks changes from this:
DAT said:
Heat Rock: Causes Drought to cost no energy to activate, extends the duration of the move Sunny Day to six (6) rounds, and enables sun to be used in all arenas where it might otherwise be disallowed.
to THIS:
DAT said:
Heat Rock: Causes Drought to cost no energy to activate, reduces the EN cost of Sunny Day to 5, extends the duration of the move Sunny Day to six (6) rounds, and enables sun to be used in all arenas where it might otherwise be disallowed.
Thoughts? I personally believe this change will open up usage of the weather rocks to many more Pokemon than just the weather channelers.
I like this idea, I think it creates far more viability in the users of the rocks without creating inherent overpoweredness among pokemon that would use them, with the possible exception of triples whimsicott.
@Ullar: Actually, I feel those stones will be unbelievably useful in RPs and Gyms, with their limiting arenas. Not all battles are in ASB Arena with everything allowed, you know.
Anyway, just a quick proposal I was thinking about:
Causing elemental Gems to not count towards encumbrance.
I'm mainly thinking about Acrobatics here. That move was almost designed to be used with Gems (especially Flying Gem). However, at the moment gems do count towards encumbrance, and so this makes the entire Flying Gem + Acrobatics strategy moot. This fix would:
1) Give Acrobatics more reason to see actual gameplay
2) Be more consistent with in-game gameplay
3) Make some actual sense (gems are too tiny to constitute any kind of encumbrance at all)
Anyway, just a quick proposal I was thinking about:
Causing elemental Gems to not count towards encumbrance.
I'm mainly thinking about Acrobatics here. That move was almost designed to be used with Gems (especially Flying Gem). However, at the moment gems do count towards encumbrance, and so this makes the entire Flying Gem + Acrobatics strategy moot. This fix would:
1) Give Acrobatics more reason to see actual gameplay
2) Be more consistent with in-game gameplay
3) Make some actual sense (gems are too tiny to constitute any kind of encumbrance at all)
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