This sounds good, though I think V-create and Shadow Force in Particular should not be allowed. Also, would these unnatural moves have to make flavor sense?
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Data ASB Feedback & Game Issues Thread (New Proposal Handling System in OP)
- Thread starter Seven Deadly Sins
- Start date
- Status
Eh, I don't know. Loose TM's are a great idea I think because they actually give a reason to beat a gym. However, applying that to all pokemon and all moves would be inviting disaster I think. Imagine if something like Dragonite got V-Create from this method. Admittedly, this is a rather extreme example, but I think you can tell where I'm going with this.
Also, making it an approval process is a bit tricky I think. It works well enough for Prize Claiming because there are set rules for that, but for something like this you have all sorts of subjectivity. One approver might see giving Donphan Drill Run as okay, while another might oppose it fervently. How do you resolve something like that?
Also, making it an approval process is a bit tricky I think. It works well enough for Prize Claiming because there are set rules for that, but for something like this you have all sorts of subjectivity. One approver might see giving Donphan Drill Run as okay, while another might oppose it fervently. How do you resolve something like that?
The original idea behind Loose TM's was that there would only be one for per gym with a specified set of Pokemon that could learn them, and the move would have to be approved by administration. While the idea partially goes against the ideals of the league, it might be more controllable in this form.
Just clarifying the original proposal. I have mixed feelings on it, personally.
Just clarifying the original proposal. I have mixed feelings on it, personally.
Flavorful (but still useful), not overly strong moves. Legendary-exclusive moves could be banned, and I mentioned in my post about nothing over 10 BAP without STAB. I admit, its risky and requires a lot of moderation and subjectivity on the approver's part, but it could work. Would even a powerhouse like Cyclohm be too strong if it got one more coverage move (Energy ball? idk if it learns that), or even some flavorful support move? It could certainly help a lot of lesser mons who are missing that one powerful STAB or neccesary coverage, and will make each mon more unique (good thing, btw). I like this idea personally, but I understand the difficulty in making it work
Older ASB Leagues had custom Gym TMs as well as Signature Moves, but again, this is Generation V and between DW Exlusive moves and events there is already a lot of proliferation.
I'm all fine for tweaking Gym rewards, but one of the issues I had with TPM ASB is that there was so much custom stuff that it just became a parody of itself after a while. I think there was a Water/Ground Cloyster with Recover or something that someone had. I really don't like stuff like Inferno Machamp going around (It has 10 or less BAP and Machamp already has Fire Blast eleventy!) In general I think like CAP itself, we should try and shy away from custom stuff. As much as someone might want a Tail Glow Ampharos, I'll have to nip this in the bud.
I'm all fine for tweaking Gym rewards, but one of the issues I had with TPM ASB is that there was so much custom stuff that it just became a parody of itself after a while. I think there was a Water/Ground Cloyster with Recover or something that someone had. I really don't like stuff like Inferno Machamp going around (It has 10 or less BAP and Machamp already has Fire Blast eleventy!) In general I think like CAP itself, we should try and shy away from custom stuff. As much as someone might want a Tail Glow Ampharos, I'll have to nip this in the bud.
Let's raise another issue to take our minds off of Signature Moves before it creates a giant rift in the community, shall we?
We all know I am an advocate of weather. So it's no surprise this is coming from me...
Why do weather rocks only allow weather-based abilities to be activated at no EN cost? IMO, that's awfully limiting, making the only real users of the items Ninetales, Politoed, Abomasnow, Hippowdon, and Tyranitar. (And Tyranitar usually uses a better item anyway.)
So, here's my proposal. That the general gist of the weather rocks changes from this:
DAT said:
Heat Rock: Causes Drought to cost no energy to activate, extends the duration of the move Sunny Day to six (6) rounds, and enables sun to be used in all arenas where it might otherwise be disallowed.
to THIS:
DAT said:
Heat Rock: Causes Drought to cost no energy to activate, reduces the EN cost of Sunny Day to 5, extends the duration of the move Sunny Day to six (6) rounds, and enables sun to be used in all arenas where it might otherwise be disallowed.
Thoughts? I personally believe this change will open up usage of the weather rocks to many more Pokemon than just the weather channelers.
This. I got some support for this proposal, but it seemed to have been overlooked. What do you think of this, Deck?
Eh, okay, I'm having a bit of an issue with one of the new items, the Rare Candy specifically.
To be honest, I'm not too sure about Rare Candy working on fully evolved Pokemon (that evolve from level up). It seems to me that half the time, due to the increase in STAB and overall stats, a Rare Candy would be better than most other items, like the Expert Belt, even though it costs 5 CC less. 0_o
Take for example a Blaziken, if I'm understanding it right, Blaziken gets one extra attack rank, putting it's stats from (assuming a neutral nature)
Blaziken
HP: 100
Atk: Rank 5
Def: Rank 3
SpA: Rank 4
SpD: Rank 3
Spe: 80
Size Class: 3
Weight Class: 4
Base Rank Total: 21
to
Blaziken
HP: 100
Atk: Rank 6
Def: Rank 3
SpA: Rank 4
SpD: Rank 3
Spe: 80
Size Class: 3
Weight Class: 4
Base Rank Total: 21
Now, that in and of itself, isn't too bad, but then you put in 1 BAP to all Fire and Fighting typed attacks. To illustrate, let's imagine two situations: one involving a fight against a Syclant, and one against a Gyarados.
Without the item, here's what a Fire Punch does to a Syclant (again, neutral natured)
[8 (BAP)+3 (STAB)+3 (Stat Difference)]*2.25=31.5
A pretty heavy hit, now let's compare that to an Expert Belt.
[8 (BAP)+3 (STAB)+2 (Item)+3 (Stat Difference)]*2.25=36
Pretty good increase, but still balanced. Now let's see what happens with a Rare Candy.
[8 (BAP)+1 (Item)+3 (STAB)+4 (Stat Difference)]*2.25=36
Notice anything? It does the same damage as the Expert Belt did.
Now, this wouldn't be a problem, since you could get an even bigger boost with a Charcoal which does cost less. But let's say your opponent's next pokemon is a Gyarados, and you don't have an opportunity to switch.
Without an item, here's what happens when Blaziken uses Thunderpunch. (Assume the opponent chooses Moxie for whatever reason)
[8 (BAP)+3 (Stat Difference)]*2.25=24.75~25
Not bad, now let's try an Expert Belt.
[8 (BAP)+2 (Item)+3 (Stat Difference)]*2.25=29.25
Pretty good, now the Rare Candy
[8 (BAP)+4 (Stat Difference)]*2.25=27
Now you may be saying at this point "Maxim, the Expert Belt is better." However, if you do the same calculations against a mon that is neutral to Blaziken's attacks, you'll find the Rare Candy gives a significant increase and comes very close if not the exact same damage against things that do get hit super effectively. I'd provide some calcs but I need to head to my class soon.
TL:DR: The Rare Candy does similar damage to most items sold at 20 CC, without a drawback, and works on most pokemon, and only costs 15 CC.
Suffice to say, I'd like to see it work more like an Eviolite, giving NFE's a distinct advantage, but not overpowering them.
Well, there's my Spheal (:P), so what do you guys think?
Data Audit Thread said:
Rare Candy: Increases the Pokemon's highest true base stat (e.g. 130 Atk) of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by one (1) Rank. If the Pokemon's initial Base Rank Total is 17 or less, it increases by two (2) Ranks. If the highest true base stat is tied, each Rank is raised. Increases the Pokemon's STAB Base Attack Power by two (2). If the Pokemon has two types, each STAB is increased by one (1) Base Attack Power instead. If the Pokemon's STAB changes, this bonus will change to correspond with it. If the Pokemon uses Transform, it alters the boost on Rare Candy to the target species' highest true base stat and adds one (1) Rank to it, regardless of the target's BRT.
Cost: 15 | Affected Pokemon: All Pokemon that evolve from a previous stage or to a next stage via Level-up.
To be honest, I'm not too sure about Rare Candy working on fully evolved Pokemon (that evolve from level up). It seems to me that half the time, due to the increase in STAB and overall stats, a Rare Candy would be better than most other items, like the Expert Belt, even though it costs 5 CC less. 0_o
Take for example a Blaziken, if I'm understanding it right, Blaziken gets one extra attack rank, putting it's stats from (assuming a neutral nature)
Blaziken
HP: 100
Atk: Rank 5
Def: Rank 3
SpA: Rank 4
SpD: Rank 3
Spe: 80
Size Class: 3
Weight Class: 4
Base Rank Total: 21
to
Blaziken
HP: 100
Atk: Rank 6
Def: Rank 3
SpA: Rank 4
SpD: Rank 3
Spe: 80
Size Class: 3
Weight Class: 4
Base Rank Total: 21
Now, that in and of itself, isn't too bad, but then you put in 1 BAP to all Fire and Fighting typed attacks. To illustrate, let's imagine two situations: one involving a fight against a Syclant, and one against a Gyarados.
Without the item, here's what a Fire Punch does to a Syclant (again, neutral natured)
[8 (BAP)+3 (STAB)+3 (Stat Difference)]*2.25=31.5
A pretty heavy hit, now let's compare that to an Expert Belt.
[8 (BAP)+3 (STAB)+2 (Item)+3 (Stat Difference)]*2.25=36
Pretty good increase, but still balanced. Now let's see what happens with a Rare Candy.
[8 (BAP)+1 (Item)+3 (STAB)+4 (Stat Difference)]*2.25=36
Notice anything? It does the same damage as the Expert Belt did.
Now, this wouldn't be a problem, since you could get an even bigger boost with a Charcoal which does cost less. But let's say your opponent's next pokemon is a Gyarados, and you don't have an opportunity to switch.
Without an item, here's what happens when Blaziken uses Thunderpunch. (Assume the opponent chooses Moxie for whatever reason)
[8 (BAP)+3 (Stat Difference)]*2.25=24.75~25
Not bad, now let's try an Expert Belt.
[8 (BAP)+2 (Item)+3 (Stat Difference)]*2.25=29.25
Pretty good, now the Rare Candy
[8 (BAP)+4 (Stat Difference)]*2.25=27
Now you may be saying at this point "Maxim, the Expert Belt is better." However, if you do the same calculations against a mon that is neutral to Blaziken's attacks, you'll find the Rare Candy gives a significant increase and comes very close if not the exact same damage against things that do get hit super effectively. I'd provide some calcs but I need to head to my class soon.
TL:DR: The Rare Candy does similar damage to most items sold at 20 CC, without a drawback, and works on most pokemon, and only costs 15 CC.
Suffice to say, I'd like to see it work more like an Eviolite, giving NFE's a distinct advantage, but not overpowering them.
Well, there's my Spheal (:P), so what do you guys think?
Again, This. ^
I agree that the Rare Candy is a bit of an overpowering to Pokemon - for crying out loud, it makes sure that EVERY SINGLE POKEMON can be affected, stat-wise, in some way or other by a sig item. Now, if it were changed to NFEs, I wouldn't complain. But R5 Att and SpD Beedrills running around? God help us all.
I agree that the Rare Candy is a bit of an overpowering to Pokemon - for crying out loud, it makes sure that EVERY SINGLE POKEMON can be affected, stat-wise, in some way or other by a sig item. Now, if it were changed to NFEs, I wouldn't complain. But R5 Att and SpD Beedrills running around? God help us all.
A couple things I should add.
In my opinion, Everstone is fine as it is since it only helps a group of pokemon that usually need the boost anyway (Castform, Sableye, Druddigon, etc).
Ullar's proposal looks pretty good to me, since hardly anyone uses the stones despite their low cost.
The effects of Rare Candy are far more noticeable on a pokemon with Rank 4 in their highest stat and one STAB.
In my opinion, Everstone is fine as it is since it only helps a group of pokemon that usually need the boost anyway (Castform, Sableye, Druddigon, etc).
Ullar's proposal looks pretty good to me, since hardly anyone uses the stones despite their low cost.
The effects of Rare Candy are far more noticeable on a pokemon with Rank 4 in their highest stat and one STAB.
Isnt Rare Candy Consumable though? Granted the effect is quite substantial, but I thought the trade off was that you only had one shot in a normal fight with it, limiting its use to pretty much Roleplays only.
EDIT: Ok actually read the description, and it doesnt say that anywhere, so I don't know where I got that idea from. Perhaps switch to this idea then?
EDIT: Ok actually read the description, and it doesnt say that anywhere, so I don't know where I got that idea from. Perhaps switch to this idea then?
Let's look at the DAT versions of Everstone and Rare Candy:
Now look at what Deck Knight posted last in this thread:
I think we can just attribute this to a bad copy-paste job.
Underlined are the only differences between the descriptions, and in the DAT itself it says that IAR edited it last to change a mention of Everstone in Rare Candy's description.Everstone: Increases the Pokemon's highest true base stat (e.g. 130 Atk) of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by one (1) Rank. If the Pokemon's initial Base Rank Total is 17 or less, it increases by two (2) Ranks. If the highest true base stat is tied, each Rank is raised. Increases the Pokemon's STAB Base Attack Power by two (2). If the Pokemon has two types, each STAB is increased by one (1). If the Pokemon's STAB changes, this bonus will change to correspond with it. If the Pokemon uses Transform, it alters the boost on Everstone to the target species' highest true base stat and adds one (1) Rank to it, regardless of the target's BRT.
Cost: 15 | Affected Pokemon: All Pokemon incapable of evolving that have not evolved from a previous Pokemon.
Rare Candy: Increases the Pokemon's highest true base stat (e.g. 130 Atk) of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by one (1) Rank. If the Pokemon's initial Base Rank Total is 17 or less, it increases by two (2) Ranks. If the highest true base stat is tied, each Rank is raised. Increases the Pokemon's STAB Base Attack Power by two (2). If the Pokemon has two types, each STAB is increased by one (1) Base Attack Power instead. If the Pokemon's STAB changes, this bonus will change to correspond with it. If the Pokemon uses Transform, it alters the boost on Rare Candy to the target species' highest true base stat and adds one (1) Rank to it, regardless of the target's BRT.
Cost: 15 | Affected Pokemon: All Pokemon that evolve from a previous stage or to a next stage via Level-up.
Now look at what Deck Knight posted last in this thread:
Only Everstone mentions a BRT affecting the boost, and Deck Knight specifically mentions in the post that 15 BRT is right because 16 would make Sableye too powerful.Revamps, since it was kind of late when I did the originals:
Rare Candy: Increases the Pokemon's highest true base stat (e.g. 130 Atk) of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by one (1) Rank. If the highest true base stat is tied, each Rank is raised. Increases the Pokemon's STAB Base Attack Power by two (2). If the Pokemon has two types, each STAB is increased by one (1) Base Attack Power instead. If the Pokemon is a first form that evolves twice (regardless of method), the highest true base stat is increased by two (2) ranks.
Cost: 8 | Affected Pokemon: All Pokemon that evolve from a previous stage or to a next stage via Level-up.
Everstone: Increases the Pokemon's highest true base stat (e.g. 130 Atk) of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by one (1) Rank. If the highest true base stat is tied, each Rank is raised. Increases the Pokemon's STAB Base Attack Power by two (2). If the Pokemon has two types, each STAB is increased by one (1). If the Pokemon's Base Rank Total is 15 or less, it's highest true base stat is increased by two (2) Ranks. If the Pokemn uses Transform, it alters the boost to the target's highest base stat and adds one (1) Rank to it.
Cost: 8 | Affected Pokemon: All Pokemon incapable of evolving that have not evolved from a previous Pokemon.
I think we can just attribute this to a bad copy-paste job.
telepathy description said:
The way this is currently worded means that you should avoid the enemies attacks that affect the whole field as well. (also the second word allies should be changed to battles) I think this should be reworded to
"This Pokemon has a mental link with its allies in multiple battles allowing it to avoid taking damage from attacks used by them that affect the whole field like Earthquake and Surf."
or something of the like so it's clear you only avoid your allies attacks
I think Synchronoise should be CT:Passive, because right now its kind of silly. Only Vaporeon (argho, tenta, poliwrath), Flareon (mollux, firefights), Leafeon (grasspoisons, broloom) and Gallade (lol) can really use it, which is pitiful considering its fairly good distribution. Giving it CT:Passive (or at least something other than set) would allow it to be comboed with a coverage move for general shenaniganry.
Telepathy has been updated:
I have changed the CT of Synchronoise to Passive and the CT of Round and Echoed Voice to Deferring, meaning that the combination will always come out Psychic-typed. Since Hyper Voice is at the same CT level, its combination with Synchronoise will be Normal-typed. Screech and Supersonic are now Elemental, meaning you can use Syncronoise + Screech/Supersonic for a Normal-typed attack. (Odd for a Special Attack to lower physical defense, but it's there.)
New Synchronoise:
Echoed Voice, Round, and Screech:
On Rare Candy / Everstone Math:
Remember when Blaziken jumps from 5-6, it doesn't become the stat difference anymore, so the additional attack rank increases Base Power by 1, not 1.5. It also only applies its boosts to STABs, whereas Expert Belt applies it primarily to coverage. Is it a good item? Yes. But it makes Blaziken operate more like Blaziken does (kick ass with strong Fire and Fighting moves, primarily physical but special as well), which is what it's supposed to do: magnify the strengths of a Pokemon. In any case, I decided on 17 after looking at a few cases and thought the power boost on some mons justified it, since it makes them more or less equal. What it tends to do is bring Pokemon at Rank 16 up to Rank 18, Rank 17 up to 19, and then when it hits 18, it goes from 18 to 19. In general it gives weaker mons parity with stronger ones.
Rank 17 or less is the correct number.
EDIT: Also I screwed up my interpretation of Imprison. It's been updated to reflect in-game effect:
Telepathy:
Type: Innate
This Pokemon has a mental link with its allies in multiple battles, which allows it to avoid taking damage from allied attacks that damage each foe or the entire field like Blizzard and Earthquake. They are still affected by an opponents spread damage attacks.
Pokemon with this ability: Wobbuffet, Ralts, Kirlia, Gardevoir, Meditite, Medicham, Wynaut, Dialga, Palkia, Giratina (Altered Forme), Munna, Musharna, Elgyem, Beheeyem, Necturnine, Necturna.
Type: Innate
This Pokemon has a mental link with its allies in multiple battles, which allows it to avoid taking damage from allied attacks that damage each foe or the entire field like Blizzard and Earthquake. They are still affected by an opponents spread damage attacks.
Pokemon with this ability: Wobbuffet, Ralts, Kirlia, Gardevoir, Meditite, Medicham, Wynaut, Dialga, Palkia, Giratina (Altered Forme), Munna, Musharna, Elgyem, Beheeyem, Necturnine, Necturna.
I have changed the CT of Synchronoise to Passive and the CT of Round and Echoed Voice to Deferring, meaning that the combination will always come out Psychic-typed. Since Hyper Voice is at the same CT level, its combination with Synchronoise will be Normal-typed. Screech and Supersonic are now Elemental, meaning you can use Syncronoise + Screech/Supersonic for a Normal-typed attack. (Odd for a Special Attack to lower physical defense, but it's there.)
New Synchronoise:
Synchronoise: The Pokemon sends out a psychic pulse of a certain frequency, damaging all other Pokemon that share any types with the Pokemon. This move hits all Pokemon except the user. If combined with Round, Echoed Voice, or Hyper Voice, increases the final power of the combo by 50% (1.5x), rounded. (e.g. 7 + 6 = 13 * 1.5 = 19.5 = 20). If combined with Screech or Supersonic, the power of the combination doubles (2x) (7 * 2 = 14) and has 100% Accuracy.
Attack Power: 7 | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 5 | Attack Type: Special | Effect Chance: -- | Contact: No | Typing: Psychic | Priority: 0 | CT: Passive
Attack Power: 7 | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 5 | Attack Type: Special | Effect Chance: -- | Contact: No | Typing: Psychic | Priority: 0 | CT: Passive
Echoed Voice, Round, and Screech:
Echoed Voice: The Pokemon puffs itself up and yells with a cry welled up from within, producing a sound wave that echoes throughout the area. Each time this is used by a member of the same team, that team's echo frequency builds up and the attack's Base Attack Power is magnified. An echo created in this way only lasts for six (6) actions, and after that won't factor into the multiplier for the Base Attack Power of newly used instances of this move.
Attack Power: 4 * Times Used by Team in last 6 Actions (Max: 20) | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 3 * Times Used by Team in last 6 Actions (Max: 15) | Attack Type: Special | Contact: No | Effect Chance: -- | Typing: Normal | Priority: 0 | CT: Deferring
Attack Power: 4 * Times Used by Team in last 6 Actions (Max: 20) | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 3 * Times Used by Team in last 6 Actions (Max: 15) | Attack Type: Special | Contact: No | Effect Chance: -- | Typing: Normal | Priority: 0 | CT: Deferring
Round: The Pokemon raises its voice. If another Pokemon joins in the same action, the power of both attacks doubles. Additional attacks stay at the boosted power that action.
Attack Power: 6 | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 8 | Attack Type: Special | Effect Chance: -- | Contact: No | Typing: Normal | Priority: 0 | CT: Deferring
Attack Power: 6 | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 8 | Attack Type: Special | Effect Chance: -- | Contact: No | Typing: Normal | Priority: 0 | CT: Deferring
Screech: The Pokemon screeches harshly at its opponent. The pitch of the screech is so high that it breaks down parts of the opponent's body, lowering their Defense by two (2) stages. This move will fail if the opponent cannot hear the screech.
Attack Power: -- | Accuracy: 85% | Energy Cost: 6 | Attack Type: Other | Effect Chance: -- | Contact: No | Typing: Normal | Priority: 0 | CT: Elemental
Attack Power: -- | Accuracy: 85% | Energy Cost: 6 | Attack Type: Other | Effect Chance: -- | Contact: No | Typing: Normal | Priority: 0 | CT: Elemental
Supersonic: The Pokemon sends out a supersonic screech, confusing the Pokemon that hears it. Supersonic can drown out other sound attacks without an accuracy check.
Attack Power: -- | Accuracy: 55% | Energy Cost: 4 | Attack Type: Other | Effect Chance: -- | Contact: No | Typing: Normal | Priority: 0 | CT: Elemental
Attack Power: -- | Accuracy: 55% | Energy Cost: 4 | Attack Type: Other | Effect Chance: -- | Contact: No | Typing: Normal | Priority: 0 | CT: Elemental
On Rare Candy / Everstone Math:
Remember when Blaziken jumps from 5-6, it doesn't become the stat difference anymore, so the additional attack rank increases Base Power by 1, not 1.5. It also only applies its boosts to STABs, whereas Expert Belt applies it primarily to coverage. Is it a good item? Yes. But it makes Blaziken operate more like Blaziken does (kick ass with strong Fire and Fighting moves, primarily physical but special as well), which is what it's supposed to do: magnify the strengths of a Pokemon. In any case, I decided on 17 after looking at a few cases and thought the power boost on some mons justified it, since it makes them more or less equal. What it tends to do is bring Pokemon at Rank 16 up to Rank 18, Rank 17 up to 19, and then when it hits 18, it goes from 18 to 19. In general it gives weaker mons parity with stronger ones.
Rank 17 or less is the correct number.
EDIT: Also I screwed up my interpretation of Imprison. It's been updated to reflect in-game effect:
Imprison: The Pokemon binds itself mentally to all opponents momentarily, sealing off up to three moves shared between the Pokemon and any of its foes (a move shared between only one foe and the user will be blocked, e.g. if Opponent A and user have Psychic and Opponent B and user have Disable, both moves will be blocked even if Opponent A lacks Disable and Opponent B lacks Psychic) for six (6) actions. The relevant opponent may not use those sealed moves; however, the user of Imprison can.
Attack Power: -- | Accuracy: -- | Energy Cost: 8 | Attack Type: Other | Effect Chance: -- | Contact: No | Typing: Psychic | Priority: 0 | CT: Passive
Attack Power: -- | Accuracy: -- | Energy Cost: 8 | Attack Type: Other | Effect Chance: -- | Contact: No | Typing: Psychic | Priority: 0 | CT: Passive
Note: Yes, this proposition is completely motivated by self-experience, but I still believe its a valid point.
I believe that the formula for ref's compensation when a match ends in DQ needs an overhaul, as it can easily rip off refs due to no fault of their own.
Current format:
Why should the refs lose out on their hard-earned UC just because one of the players did not stick to the DQ? With the current system we have, it is more beneficial to a ref for them to drop out of a match themselves than one of the competitors. This is especially unfair when you take into account that the other battler gets the same compensation they would receive if they finished the battle (except for KOC, which is not guaranteed compensation anyways), and the battler is usually the one calling the DQ in the first place.
Unfortunately, I do not currently have a solution to this problem. Although I will continue to think of one, I would like others input on this. Should we buff ref compensation for DQ matches? Should we lower compensation for the original in a match with a subref? Should we dock some of the rewards for the battler who was not DQd? Or am I just butthurt (which is completely possible as well)?
Another note, this is no way an attack on Wolfe or TRG, and should not be treated as such. I just used this battle as an example.
I believe that the formula for ref's compensation when a match ends in DQ needs an overhaul, as it can easily rip off refs due to no fault of their own.
Current format:
As an example, in this battle (EDIT: Since Wolfe came back right after I DQ'd him, and neither of us gave him any warning of DQ whatsoever, I only find it fair that I allow the battle to resume, so just take it from before the original DQ post), 6 rounds were reffed, but due to switching and general stalling, not a single mon was KO'd. Since TRG called DQ on Wolfe, the ref only receives 1 UC. I believe that this is somewhat unfair to the ref. To put it in perspective, since the battle was a 3v3 singles, if I was the one DQ'd and a subref took over, the subref would have to ref 36 more rounds for me to receive only 1 UC from this match.
Why should the refs lose out on their hard-earned UC just because one of the players did not stick to the DQ? With the current system we have, it is more beneficial to a ref for them to drop out of a match themselves than one of the competitors. This is especially unfair when you take into account that the other battler gets the same compensation they would receive if they finished the battle (except for KOC, which is not guaranteed compensation anyways), and the battler is usually the one calling the DQ in the first place.
Unfortunately, I do not currently have a solution to this problem. Although I will continue to think of one, I would like others input on this. Should we buff ref compensation for DQ matches? Should we lower compensation for the original in a match with a subref? Should we dock some of the rewards for the battler who was not DQd? Or am I just butthurt (which is completely possible as well)?
Another note, this is no way an attack on Wolfe or TRG, and should not be treated as such. I just used this battle as an example.
Double posting to bring something to your attention.
Remember when I made a proposal regarding KOC?
EDIT: Change #1:
Remember when I made a proposal regarding KOC?
Well it didn't go through on the grounds that it was too convoluted.
So, I'd like you guys to help me simplify it so that it can go through.
EDIT: Change #1:
- If a pokemon knocks itself out or is knocked out by an ally before taking any damage (direct or otherwise) from an opposing pokemon, the opponent gets 1 KOC to give to any one of their pokemon in that battle.
- If there is more than one opponent, each opponent gets 1 KOC to give to any one of their pokemon in that battle.
I think you could simplify the proposal to:
If a Pokemon knocks itself out by any means then the target of the move used to knock it is awarded 1 KOC.
If an Ally was the reason the user was knocked then the KOC goes to the last Pokemon to do some kind of damage to it
This includes everything from Memento & Explosion to knocking oneself by energy exhaustion and recoil damage, and making sure someone in the opposite side of the field gets the counter (ex. if the move is something such as healin wish since the target is an ally and thus the reason the user fainted, the last Pokemon to do damage to it would get the KOC)
If a Pokemon knocks itself out by any means then the target of the move used to knock it is awarded 1 KOC.
If an Ally was the reason the user was knocked then the KOC goes to the last Pokemon to do some kind of damage to it
This includes everything from Memento & Explosion to knocking oneself by energy exhaustion and recoil damage, and making sure someone in the opposite side of the field gets the counter (ex. if the move is something such as healin wish since the target is an ally and thus the reason the user fainted, the last Pokemon to do damage to it would get the KOC)
That would just make things more complex. That is...
"If a Pokemon knocks itself out by any means then the target of the move used to knock it is awarded 1 KOC."
What if the move was something like Explosion, where it hits everyone on the field? Then who gets the KOC?
"If an Ally was the reason the user was knocked then the KOC goes to the last Pokemon to do some kind of damage to it"
I faint my own team-mate with <insert attack here>. I get a KOC for sacking my own Pokemon. Gee I am good. I can abuse this really well. This is the sort of thing that should not be encouraged.
That said the rule change there was pretty much because it disadvantaged "legitimate" explosion strategies, like Helping Hand + Selfdestruct + Explosion combo OAKO in Triples+, which actually served to win games, lol. The current ruling is fine, imo.
Eh, just my two cents here, but why don't we just change it to:
The KOC goes to the Pokemon who's effect (whether it be toxic or an attack) dealt the killing blow.
Corollary 1: If the Pokemon is knocked out by an ally's effect, then the KOC goes to the last opposing Pokemon that dealt damage to it.
Corollary 2: If the Pokemon knocks itself out, then the KOC again goes to the last opposing Pokemon that dealt damage to it.
The KOC goes to the Pokemon who's effect (whether it be toxic or an attack) dealt the killing blow.
Corollary 1: If the Pokemon is knocked out by an ally's effect, then the KOC goes to the last opposing Pokemon that dealt damage to it.
Corollary 2: If the Pokemon knocks itself out, then the KOC again goes to the last opposing Pokemon that dealt damage to it.
Most of the rules are in place to help people work out which effect actually dealt the killing blow. Under your system, if a mon is burned by one opponent and poisoned by another opponent and is vulnerable to Hail summoned by another opponent and gets reduced to 4 HP by direct attacks in a given action, how do you know which effect caused the killing blow (and by extension who you give the KOC to)?
My system has a way of resolving that kind of situation. While I appreciate attempts to simplify it and make it less convoluted, any suggestions you make will have to account for that kind of situation to be considered.
My system has a way of resolving that kind of situation. While I appreciate attempts to simplify it and make it less convoluted, any suggestions you make will have to account for that kind of situation to be considered.
Personally I feel that with the infrequent amount of times this will actually come up it can go without such distinct codification and just be resolved on common sense...
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