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Data ASB Feedback & Game Issues Thread (New Proposal Handling System in OP)

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Proposal - Change the Reflect / Light Screen cap to affect all moves, not just combinations

There's not much reason why there should be a cap of -5 BAP on combinations, but not standard moves. In a Singles battle, Hydro Pump (12 BAP) suffers a reduction of 6 BAP while Water Spout (15 BAP) can suffer a reduction of up to 7.5 BAP, while something like Mega Brine (29.25 BAP) or Ember + Blast Burn (26.5 BAP) only suffers a reduction of 5 BAP.

Naturally the cap is there to make sure the Screen moves aren't overly powerful and some might even say that the cap is exclusive to combinations to keep them viable in an austere sense, but it simply makes no sense.

KO Counters

I pretty much echo deadfox's sentiments here in that the majority of the time this won't happen due to the more offensive nature of ASB; besides, isn't the priority thing kind of common sense...? If a codification really is necessary than what Objection has is probably and clear-cut as it's going to get, even if it's a bit long-winded and excessive most of the time, but I think common sense is going to be able to determine the KOC recipient for the majority.
 
deadfox081 said:
Personally I feel that with the infrequent amount of times this will actually come up it can go without such distinct codification and just be resolved on common sense...
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^^

Also, Splash should be useful. We made Leech Life useful, no move left behind.
 
Yeah, I would support a purely common sense approach but I know some people get antsy about stuff not being codified.

EDIT: Also supporting Texas Cloverleaf's proposal below.
 
It's no secret that modifiers to stats such as attack and defense are among the weakest boosts in ASB. The major cause for this is the fact that the boosts factor into damage outside of any multipliers that may occur. Not only does this fly counter to in-game precedence, this also cause the boosts to be near worthless in matches where a boost of +1/75 damage is largely irrelevant when each Pokemon is doing 20 damage per attack.

We talked about this on irc and we think that a good way to alter the system to make stat boosts have more relevance would be to have each stage boost, +1, +2, etc, be worth 1*number of stages, and this number would be added onto the base rank for that boosts, respective stat.

In this manner, a generic Pokemon with 3/3/3/3 stats that has +3 attack, -1 defense, -2 special attack and +1 special defense would have effective stats of 6/2/1/4 while those boosts were in effect.
 
my one hold up with texas' proposal is that well... does it actually make boosts better?
so say youre at +1, using a neutral attack. In the current system, you do 1.75 more damage. In his proposal, if your attack is less than rank 5, you do 1.5 more damage, and otherwise you only do 1 more damage. If youre hitting for supereffective its a little better, with this new system doing 2.25 extra damage if youre below rank 5 and 1.5 if you arent.

however where this system is really worse is when you get to +2 or +3. If you have a rank 4 mon, even if youre hitting them supereffectively you're only very barely better with this proposal at +2 (3.75 vs 3.5) and the same at +3 (5.25 for both). And this is just if every attack you use is super effective....

honestly if we want to make stat boosts more powerful i woudl propose to moving it to a flat +1.75 added to bap for each boost and looking at the potential for extending the duration of stat ups
 
EDIT: GO FUCK YOURSELF IMANALT AND FUCK THIS DAMN IPHONE FOR TYPING SO SLOWLY /rage

Texas, do your damn math >.>
That proposal sounds good and all, but mathematically makes boosts even more shitty. Let's take a generic all Rank 3 poke using Earthquake on another all Rank 3 poke.
Now let's give the attacker a +6 Atk boost. Under the current system, it would do (10+(3-3)1.5)+10.5 = 20.5 DMG. Under your proposal, it would do (10+4+(5-3)1.5) = 17 DMG, dealing 3.5 less damage with your buff.

But what about SE attacks?
Under the old system with two pokes with the same stats as before, but the defender is weak to Ground. That Earthquake would now deal (10+(3-3)1.5)(1.5)+10.5 = 25.5, while your system deals (10+4+(5-3)1.5)(1.5) = 25.5 DMG, making literally no difference at all.

So lets try a weaker attack, Bulldoze, with the same ranks and the attack is SE
Neutral attack: Old does (6)(1.5)+10.5 = 19.5 DMG
Yours does (6+4+(5-3)1.5)(1.5) = 19.5 DMG


Stronger SE attacks?
Old: (15)(1.5)+10.5 = 33 DMG
New: (15+7)(1.5) = 33 DMG

Now let's try resistances:
Old: (10)(.67)+10.5 = 17.2 DMG
New: (10+7)(.67) = 11.39 DMG

Old: (6)(.67)+10.5 = 14.5 DMG
New: (6+7)(.67) = 8.71 DMG

Old: (15)(.67)+10.5 = 20.55 DMG
New: (15+7)(.67) = 14.75 DMG

With a Rank 5 attacker against a Rank 3 defender?
Old: (10+(5-3)1.5)+10.5 = 23.5
New: (10+6+(5-3)1.5) = 19 DMG

Old: (10+(5-3)1.5)(1.5)+10.5 = 30 DMG
New: (10+9)(1.5) = 28.5 DMG

Old: (10+(5-3)1.5)(.67)+10.5 = 19.21 DMG
New: (10+9)(.67) = 12.73 DMG

Rank 1 vs Rank 3?
Old: (10+(1-3)1.5)+10.5 = 17.5 DMG
New: (10+2+(5-3)1.5) = 15 DMG

Old: (10-3)(1.5)+10.5 = 21 DMG
New: (10+5)(1.5) = 22.5 DMG

Old:(7)(.67)+10.5 = 15.19 DMG
New: (15)(.67) = 10 DMG

It goes on.

Tl;dr This proposed system doesn't grant any extra damage unless the attack is 4x effective against the opponent and deals less damage than the old system in almost every possible situation. In fact, over all those calcs I did, only one came out in favor of the new system.

With all this, that proposal should never be implemented. Ever.
 
Or we could make it a multiplier, like in-game.
+.1* per boost, with defnce and attack being multiplied, i.e. 1.3*.8
This way, at +5 attack, you get basically a pseudo SE attack.
 
Increase the Stat Boost to +/- 3 per stage, this keeps it in line with it's equivalents, namely STAB which while being a 50% in-game boost is the same as a +1 Atk/SpA boost, this boost may seem big, but for the most part, in moves such as sword dance or nasty plot you get an increase in damage of max 33 damage (4 turns at +1 & 3 at +1), all while having to continue to use damaging moves and complete the 2 rounds, about the same damage as a SE combo

Also, this COMPLETELY EXCLUDES SPEED, that fine as it is, only Atk/Def/SpA/SpD ones should gt the boost

Ps: yeah, Boost Splash, using it in combination with Bounce (and maybe moves stopped by gravity) or making it a possible evasive seem like would make the move anything other than something you do instead of just give up
 
User(s) said:
Stat Boosters Suck!
Click to expand...
/ME sends out Swoobat
/ME uses Calm Mind x3 R1
/ME spams Stored Power (Which have 26 BAP)
/ME wins

But yeah, in all seriousness, outside of Swoobat, Stat Boosters are kinda bad. You could make all Stat Boosts permanent, but one concern with that is the potential to break Swoobat. Otherwise, you can always just increase the flat damage power, idk.
 
If you make stat boosters change bap not as a flat add on at the end, this would help others more than swoobat because stored power spam gets less of a boost cause it's usually neutral.
 
fortunately, not many things combo with dodge - basically just damaging evasive moves and Taunt. i don't think it's broken, especially since that cooldown turn bites just to get off a fast taunt.

my proposal is quite simple: there should be substitution classes for "damaging priority moves" and "damaging spread moves." it's easy to see why these would be useful, and i don't think they would break the game in any way.
 
Alright, time for the one ability that is ridiculously overpowered as it currently stands:

FUK ILLUMINATE.

Speaking strictly, it does absolutely nothing but flip matches and force players to think about absolutely everything they do. See this. While I wouldn't mind it normally, this is different for two reasons.

1) No ingame precedent.
2) The abusres don't all suck.

Starmie and Mollux are both absolutely terrifying with the ability, and stacking them makes it significantly harder for even good players to win if the dice goes the wrong way. Given that there is absolutely zero competitive basis for illuminate, I think it is time to change it to something less ridiculous. While I have no suggestions at the moment, I think it raising the accuracy of the user or the evasion of opponents, rather than lowering the opponent's accuracy, could keep the move viable without making the game into a crapshoot where things like the gym match above can happen.
 
I think that the -acc is okay, but I feel like it should act as a free flash a0, and as such, should decay at end round.
Also Illuminate did nothing in that battle because of thunder's perfect acc in rain.
 
TIO said:
I think that the -acc is okay, but I feel like it should act as a free flash a0, and as such, should decay at end round.
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Just saying, a Flash on action 0 would last for two rounds, because being a non-damaging -1 adjustment from 0, it always lasts for a minimum of four actions not including the action it happened on. In other words, Illuminate currently works exactly like a free Flash on action 0.

I forget who, but someone on IRC proposed that Illuminate be changed to an innate ability that gives a flat 10% accuracy boost, based on the light making it easier for the Illuminate pokemon to see (also as an alternative to the haxxy accuracy reduction).

Speaking of haxxy abilities, Forewarn anyone?
 
I personally haven't had any negative experiences with it, but I know (partly from my own positive experiences) that several people really seem to get annoyed whenever it kicks in.
 
If you're gonna spam Fire Blasts against Jynx and Necturna without any prior planning it's completely your fault if you end up losing, I hardly see anything wrong with Forewarn since it forces you to think of using whatever move is SE against that opponent instead of a maybe a bit weaker but safer option.
 
Gerard said:
If you're gonna spam Fire Blasts against Jynx and Necturna without any prior planning it's completely your fault if you end up losing, I hardly see anything wrong with Forewarn since it forces you to think of using whatever move is SE against that opponent instead of a maybe a bit weaker but safer option.
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No.

An ability should not, for free or otherwise, be able to give a pokemon an effective 0 weaknesses. For most pokemon to 7/8HKO, they need to rely on ridiculously low accuracy moves, of which you can easily expect 1/2 to miss.

Keeping Forewarn and Illuminate as they are is adding hax for the sake of adding hax, and adding it for free as well. Something that we have actively tried to avoid in CAPASB (See Dodge).
 
Gerard said:
If you're gonna spam Fire Blasts against Jynx and Necturna without any prior planning it's completely your fault if you end up losing, I hardly see anything wrong with Forewarn since it forces you to think of using whatever move is SE against that opponent instead of a maybe a bit weaker but safer option.
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lol what
 
My point was there are ways around Forewarn (and to a lesser extent Iluminate), using Fire Fang and Fire Punch against Jynx, thus hitting it's weaker defense, abusing Dry Skin fire weakness, and having less than half the chance to miss as opposed to just mindlessly using the flashier option, maybe use that neutral STAB or gravity, or eliminate it's ability, or reduce it's evasion, or any other thing.

It's not different that making sure your opponent doesn't just Dig it's way out off all upcoming attacks or to avoid having your attacks countered, you just need to prepare for some stuff. In the example you showed, if there has been a sub for Feint in case it missed, then you would have at least something to fall back on, also, Illuminate had nothing to do with the Freezing

Also abilities already do that, Multiscale gives Dragonite 0 weakness for one round (Ice does the equivalent of 1.125x and anything else a lot less), Bronzong has no weakness outside of gravity (bar some very weak/rare moves) and so does Eelektross, all of which are Bulkier/have better movepools than many of Starmie/Mollux/Lanturn/Jynx/Necturna
 
While the "no weakness" examples provided seems like a valid argument, it falls short. The Pokemon provided have no weaknesses for a clear factor that both players understand- a convienent mix of typing and abilities. They will always take a set amount of damage from attacks that both players are aware of. Forewarn makes it random. Additionally, all of the examples provided have ingame precedent that we more or less have to follow. Forewarn does little of the sort. I would not mind Forewarn playing around with dodge a bit, but I believe that a purely passive HAX based Forewarn is generally bad for the game given that we do not have to interpret it as an evasion booster.
 
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