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Data ASB Feedback & Game Issues Thread (New Proposal Handling System in OP)

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@Yarnus of Bethany: Again with the "it sounds cool" reasoning...Basically, the Combination System was designed as CAP ASB's version of a Signature Move System - So we did not need to have a Signature Move System. But then again, each to their own. If you are still going to spam combos, that is your prerogative, but combos will definitely become endangered species if signature moves were to be implemented.

@UllarWarlord: I am sort of on the fence with this proposal. Aside from the fact that I know your motive behind the proposal, I personally think that the EC reduction could be a welcome buff to weather strategies. My only concern is that given the benefits the Weather Rocks already have, with the ability to ignore conditions & whatnot, would an energy reduction be too big a buff? That said, it would be a very welcome reduction, & I do not really care if it passes or not.

@zarator: Acrobatics is still quite a menace in Items=Off battles, but that said, the Gems not counting towards encumbering does sort of make sense - why not extend non-encumbering to all consumable items that have been used at least once? Other than that, I support this.

Back to the Substitutions debacle, we already know that...[BOX]AND: Always allowed
AND NOT/NOT: Always allowed
IF: Only one allowed at the beginning of the sub
THEN: Only one allowed in the middle of the sub
UNLESS: Not legal[/BOX]
And the syntax of a substitution is...[BOX]IF (Condition(s)=TRUE), THEN (Actions)[/BOX]
We still need to resolve the Upon/When in terms of pushing actions back, & it seems like those who have responded want it to be illegal. Any other opinions?
 
I make no falsehoods about my underlying motives. I do, however, think the opening up of weather strategies by this proposal is healthy for the game. Plus, it kinda makes flavor sense when you think about it.
 
Ullar, why not leave it to 7 EC, while the energy reduccion is not as big, it's enough so you're able to use Weather-changing moves while sluggish

Also, if this passes why not let the Light Clay reduce the energy cost to 5/7 (-3/1 EC), keeps it in line with the rocks and makes the item a beter alternative against some o the most expensive ones, and again, let's you use them while sluggish
 
Something which recently came to my attention is the fact that Kitsunoh lacks the move Endure. Kitsunoh is a pre-gen 5 CAP, so at that time Endure was TM 58, and literally every mon learned it, bar those who don't learn almost any TM (like, say, Caterpie or Magikarp). What I'm advocating for is to simply add it back on Kitsunoh's movepool.

Now, some of you may suspect that there is a good reason for why this move lacks from Kitsunoh's movepool. However, if you go check back to the process of CAP7, you will find that:

  • Endure was literally never mentioned in the Supportive Movepool Discussion. It is not considered an Allowed, Controversial, or Disallowed move at all. It is not considered at all.
  • Out of all the movepool submitters, only Darkie (the one who will win) and Hybrid99 lack this TM. Over 10 of the submitters included it. And neither those who included it nor those who didn't actually talked about it at all.
  • In all the poll thread, none still mentioned Endure as a matter of discussion, or in the description of the polled movepools
Someone of you may protest and say that, this way, we somehow overturn the CAP process. But the reality is that we already did this several times in the past, and none complained about it. Icicle Spear Syclant, Vital Throw Revenankh, Absorb Pyroak... the list goes on. And Endure Kitsunoh is arguably more compelling than all of these, since TM 58 is learned by EVERY Pokemon capable of learning TMs.


So, can we be all on the same page and fix this? Thanks.
 
I would like to bring up something that has come to my attention.

NOT clauses cannot be used in conjunction with AND clauses

Allow me to illustrate this. Say some pokemon has surf, hydro pump, waterfall, and Aqua Jet. And you have mirror coat.

You should not be able to sub for only hydro pump and surf only. However, by the sub rules we have now....

IF opponent uses damaging water type move AND NOT waterfall AND NOT aqua jet, THEN mirror coat.

:S
 
Actually, I'm pretty sure it was ruled that you could not in any way make a single substitution for "all damaging moves of a particular type except moves X Y and Z", because of scenarios like the one you described.
 
In that case, the rules should be updated - why do we only allow "NOT" statements in some scenarios, but never explain it in a decent manner?

On Endure: How the feck doesn't Kitsunoh have that? It doesn't matter either way, but I think it should be added.
 
This could be getting out of hand... so I'll try to prevent it from going too far.

To put it simply, training items. They are quite useful, speeding up the gain of counters (whether MC, CC, DC, or EC). They are growing more common these days, thanks to the recent price drop. In fact, I think I heard that someone was purchasing six Amulet Coins, though that could be my ears decieving me.

That, by itself, is not a problem. What he was planning to do with them is.

This trainer was, if I recall correctly, planning to use trick in a 3vs3 battle to pass each coin to each of his Poke'mon. One coin, in this way, could lead to 6 extra CC. Six coins... 36 CC and an angry referee, not to mention opponent.

To be honest, I'm all for "borrowing" training items from my opponents in battles; I doubt I'd complain if they borrowed one of mine (assuming they returned it after the match, after all!). But to toss them around with Trick, multiplying their benefits... multiplying!... even I have standards.

What I propose is that each training item affects only one Poke'mon per side per battle, and Poke'mon are only affected by one training item per battle.

There is some debate on the IRC on what training item (first, last, which one?) affects the Poke'mon, and, to prevent getting stuck with a sucky training item (what if a spiteful opponent Tricks a Lucky Egg onto your fully evolved with Dream Ability unlocked Poke'mon?), I'd recommend having the owner of the Poke'mon decide which training item affects their Poke'mon.

This way, people can continue to borrow training items from opponents, spreading the benefits, but not multiply the benefits of the item on themselves.

Discussion?
 
Data Audit Thread said:
Bag_Amulet_Coin_Sprite.png

Amulet Coin: The Pokemon's owner gains one (1) additional Currency Counter for each battle the Pokemon participates in.
Click to expand...

Amulet Coins aren't magical coin-making machines. If your poke holds it at the beginning of the battle, you get 1 more CC.
If your poke loses it's Amulet Coin, you still get 1 more CC.
If your poke somehow gains a new Amulet Coin, you still get only 1 additional CC.
Trick doesn't magically begin a new battle, so that trainer's plan is doomed to failure.
 
I agree on Endure, worst case scenario Kitsunoh uses Endure and Pain split leaving him with 1 energy starting next round in most cases, and since it was just a "forgotten" move due to it not being any competitively viable on regular OU then it stands to reason this would be added, just like Scratch Scratchet
 
zarator said:
Someone of you may protest and say that, this way, we somehow overturn the CAP process. But the reality is that we already did this several times in the past, and none complained about it. Icicle Spear Syclant, Vital Throw Revenankh, Absorb Pyroak... the list goes on. And Endure Kitsunoh is arguably more compelling than all of these, since TM 58 is learned by EVERY Pokemon capable of learning TMs.

So, can we be all on the same page and fix this? Thanks.
Click to expand...
Icicle Spear Syclant, Vital Throw Revenankh, and Absorb Pyroak are all moves added on to the Pokemon's Gen V movepool. Adding Endure onto Kitsunoh's movepool would require a change to its Gen IV movepool since Endure isn't a BW TM. These two changes are completely different and there is no precedent for changing Gen IV movepools since your examples are not related at all.

That being said it does make sense that it should get it but "the other submissions had it" isn't exactly a good argument either since those other submissions weren't the ones that won the vote...
 
I realize what you mean, Engineer. At the same time, though, I don't see anything wrong with just adding Endure and being done with it. As someone mentioned in ASB, if you check CAP11, Endure was actually mentioned among the moves that MUST be on a Pokemon, just like Frustration and Return. Simply, it wasn't codified back then. Or do you really want me to go ask Darkie if he intentionally didn't include Endure in the movepool?
 
Actually there is precedent, Gen V Scratchet had it movepool completely set when the finished product was released, but had Scratch added to it's Level Up Movepool even though Tomo didn't have it in it's movepool at the time it was released. Not the perfect precedent but we have modified one pokemon's voted movepool so it stands.
 
Not going to pull Word of God much here since at this point, this forum is really the player's to alter as they see fit, for the most part. Kitsunoh should get Endure, it's an oversight if it didn't.

On Signature Moves:

The reason Signature Moves originally existed in early ASBs were the shallow movepools. Comparatively speaking, RBY + GSC movepools, and even into ADV were somewhat limited because of the characteristics of Physical/Special being locked in by type and having a limited number of options.

DPP and BW changed all of that and made a plethora of physical and special attacks of all types and effects widely available. The combination system was built in part because of the very unique combination of moves that some Pokemon have access to.

An example would be Twister + Leaf Tornado, which only a select few Grass types (Serperior line, Tropius, and Shiftry) have access to, and the combination system I constructed puts it together as a quite powerful Dragon-typed attack that helps these Pokemon get past the Dragons that usually give Grass types trouble.

The real secret is that these "signature moves" already exist to an extent, they're just not bleedingly obvious and they require you to dig deep into the game's data. It's why when I started making the Threat List I added a section for "Cool Combos" to highlight some of these moves, some of which like Roserade's Poison Sting + Pin Missile actually derive some uniqueness from working with the Pokemon's Ability, even if the two moves themselves are more widely available.

On more Item Buffs / Revamps:

As far as Item Buffs, if you could find a way to approve them among a few trusted users, I'd be fine with that. I'm still on a psuedo-hiatus.

One idea I did have is that I've never really liked Rare Candy's effect, and I was thinking of bringing it more in line with some of the other "signature items" we've made like the other evolution boosters. That way every Pokemon would have an item they could use as an optional booster.

Here's my thought:

Bag_Rare_Candy_Sprite.png

Rare Candy: Increases the Pokemon's highest true base stat (e.g. 130 Atk) of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by one (1) Rank. If the highest true base stat is tied, each Rank is raised. Increases the Pokemon's STAB Base Attack Power by two (2). If the Pokemon has two types, each STAB is increased by one (1) Base Attack Power instead. If the Pokemon is a first form that evolves by level-up twice, the highest true base stat is increased by two (2) ranks.

Cost: 8 | Affected Pokemon: All Pokemon that evolve from a previous stage or to a next stage via Level-up.

Yes, Yes, I know, I've broken Tyrogue and Glalie (And Arceus).

Also this:

Bag_Everstone_Sprite.png

Everstone: Increases the Pokemon's highest true base stat (e.g. 130 Atk) of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by one (1) Rank. If the highest true base stat is tied, each Rank is raised. Increases the Pokemon's STAB Base Attack Power by two (2). If the Pokemon has two types, each STAB is increased by one (1). If the Pokemon's Base Rank Total is 15 or less, it's highest true base stat is increased by two (2) Ranks.

Cost: 8 | Affected Pokemon: All Pokemon incapable of evolving.

Yes yes, I know, Power/Armor Creep, but I actually think these are the best balanced they can be considering the huge variety of applicable Pokemon, they are weaker than most of the other signature items, but their effect basically makes each Pokemon more "Extreme" at what it's strengths are. Everstone is helped primarily by the fact that most of the "weak" Non-evolvers have a lot of equivalent stats (hi Spinda) while the stronger ones seem to specialize in one area.

btw. I ripped some sprites, and these will be made available:

IceRock_zps1e1c8a97.png


Ice Rock: The affected Pokemon enters battle with Snow Cloak activated and continuously activates Ice Body, granting two (2) HP per action regardless of weather. Increases the Pokemon's highest true base stat (e.g. 130 Atk) of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by one (1) Rank. If the highest true base stat is tied, each Rank is raised.

Cost: 8 | Affected Pokemon: Eevee, Glaceon

MossRock_zps4449ab2b.png


Moss Rock: The affected Pokemon enters battle with Leaf Guard and Chlorophyll Activated, regardless of weather. Increases the Pokemon's highest true base stat (e.g. 130 Atk) of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by one (1) Rank. If the highest true base stat is tied, each Rank is raised.

Cost: 8 | Affected Pokemon: Eevee, Leafeon

No Eevee shall be left neglected!
 
Deck Knight said:
Bag_Everstone_Sprite.png

Everstone: Increases the Pokemon's highest true base stat (e.g. 130 Atk) of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by one (1) Rank. If the highest true base stat is tied, each Rank is raised. Increases the Pokemon's STAB Base Attack Power by two (2). If the Pokemon has two types, each STAB is increased by one (1). If the Pokemon's Base Rank Total is 15 or less, it's highest true base stat is increased by two (2) Ranks.

Cost: 8 | Affected Pokemon: All Pokemon incapable of evolving.
Click to expand...

Just checking, does this mean all fully-evolved mons like Kingdra and all single-stage mons like Spinda?
 
I don't think Rare Candy makes much sense flavorwise...as useless as it is, I'm happier with what it does now.

As for the others, I'm all aboard. LOOK OUT WORLD, HERE COMES SPINDOOM.
 
Revamps, since it was kind of late when I did the originals:

Bag_Rare_Candy_Sprite.png

Rare Candy: Increases the Pokemon's highest true base stat (e.g. 130 Atk) of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by one (1) Rank. If the highest true base stat is tied, each Rank is raised. Increases the Pokemon's STAB Base Attack Power by two (2). If the Pokemon has two types, each STAB is increased by one (1) Base Attack Power instead. If the Pokemon is a first form that evolves twice (regardless of method), the highest true base stat is increased by two (2) ranks.

Cost: 8 | Affected Pokemon: All Pokemon that evolve from a previous stage or to a next stage via Level-up.

Bag_Everstone_Sprite.png

Everstone: Increases the Pokemon's highest true base stat (e.g. 130 Atk) of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by one (1) Rank. If the highest true base stat is tied, each Rank is raised. Increases the Pokemon's STAB Base Attack Power by two (2). If the Pokemon has two types, each STAB is increased by one (1). If the Pokemon's Base Rank Total is 15 or less, it's highest true base stat is increased by two (2) Ranks. If the Pokemn uses Transform, it alters the boost to the target's highest base stat and adds one (1) Rank to it.

Cost: 8 | Affected Pokemon: All Pokemon incapable of evolving that have not evolved from a previous Pokemon.


The basic idea here for Rare Candy is that it accentuates a Pokemon's strongest natural traits, and buffs up even the lowest Pokemon into a potential threat. As far as the practical effect, it makes Physical Defense a lot more important, since most of the Pokemon affected by Rare Candy tend to have more Atk than SpA in their first forms. There are a few notable dangerous exceptions, like Gastly, Magnemite, Elekid, and Solosis but for the vast majority of Pokemon this levels the playing field for smaller mons vs. larger ones. I'd say one of the most dangerous mons would be the first one, Bulbasaur, since it gets Rank 5 SpA and SpD from Rare Candy, though Horsea likes tandem Rank 5 Def/SpA. Zigzagoon is actually turned fairly defensive with 2/4/2/4, a better boost than Eviolite, especially if you want to raise an Attack stat.

In general I think it fulls out a "unique item" niche for each Pokemon and is well-balanced enough that some people will be encouraged not to evolve some of their Pokemon to take advantage of size mechanics without sacrificing the power that tends to be absent in less-evolved Pokemon.

Everstone on the other hand takes a lot of the weaker non-evolvers and makes them much more competitive. Mawile for example has 14 BRT, so it gets buffed to 90/5/5/2/2 with Everstone, as well as the Steel STAB boost. 15 seems to be the right balance, since it'd feel a bit much if Sableye became 5/5/3/3 (Its BRT is 16). Plusle and Minun get a jump up to 5 SpA.
 
While I think those items would be good in creating more viable threats in ASB, I think something should be added to Everstone about excluding Legendary Pokemon. No one should have to go up against a 5/5/5/5 Mew/Jirachi/Mesprit/Shaymin/Manaphy/Victini with a bonus to STAB.
 
Bastiodons justify double posts!

I had a mostly controversial, possibly good idea that I'd like to throw out here. What if, instead of sig moves, we had Unnatural Moves? Moves that are in pokemon already, but just not neccesarily on the mon in question. Each mon would only get one, for increased MC (or even CC) cost, and the purchase would have to go through an approval process. It would finally allow Flare Blitz Flareons and the like. Guidelines would have to be set (I was thinking nothing over 10 BAP unless it gets stab), and approvals would likely back up fast. However it would help with the uniqueness of mons that yarnus mentioned.

For example, some people might patch up klunk's poor coverage with earthquake (assuming it is allowed), while others might give it a previous generation staple like bide or endure. Thoughts? Its just a poorly-thought out idea I had to improve (maybe?) ASB.
 
I thought that was what Loose TMs that were supported in the gyms as rewards were supposed to do, I think it's a great idea, other than the obvious flareon, there are a lot of cool but unused pokemon that coud use one or two extra moves to help themselves (for ex. Waterfall on Kingler would give you with a good physical STAB with which to abuse Sheer Force). At the same time, moves that are pretty cool but have never been given (or were but ony in the first gens) could see new powerful users (I'm looking at you Aura Sphere)
 
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