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BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread

You could just be the smart person who runs dual sand i.e. Hippo AND Tar (offensive Tar/Whatever Hippo), in which case should you happen to lose Tar to Duggy to KO Xatu, you still have sand, and if you don't lose Ttar, it can be very, very useful for the Chlorosweepers.

Or we could just make the easiest change and use Shed Shell Tar, which traps Xatu and switches out of Duggy AND can take on Venusaur in a pinch. Basically getting Rocks down vs this type of team AND having Sand up is MASSIVE. Tales is going to have a hard time switching into anything with Rocks down, and Ttar basically gets a free switch in every time without fear of being Duggy'd. Now, Shed Shell Tar isn't just going to win all of your matches single handedly for you, you have to give it team support. I would strongly recommend Scarf Infernape. In the sun or with Rocks down (preferably both, and definitely the latter if Duggy is still alive) not much likes taking a STAB Flare Blitz, and in addition it can U-turn which is extremely helpful. I don't know what all Scarf Ape outspeeds, but every Saur I've played against in the sun has been outsped and easily OHKO'd. Gene? Outsped and OHKO'd (or you can just U-turn depending on things). Duggy? Well you shouldn't be in vs it but you can U-turn out regardless. Tales takes massive damage from Flare Blitz or Close Combat (not massive per se as 60%, but massive as in it should not be switching in this much). Victini is about the closest thing, but in the Sun and with Rocks up Victini does NOT like switching into it at all. In addition, Ape can just U-turn off of just about anything.

Another fantastic poke for Lavos Sun is a Duggy of your own. This sounds weird, seeing as how Duggy's use is to trap YOUR Weather user, but it works to the Sand player's advantage as well by trapping Tales (either by making a predicted switch in from Sunny Day or from a U-turn). If your Sash is up (or you use SubLiechi, or God forbid Band) their Sun is gone and it is not coming back up. Additionally, Dugtrio traps Victini after a V-create (or Fusion Bolt, or even Genesect's Tbolt but that's unlikely considering they probably wouldn't use Choiced electric attacks if they see Duggy). Also, Duggy is useful for a number of other things and not just Lavos Sun, making it much more than a simple gimmick.

Lavos Sun is a fantastic teamstyle, but making unorthodox choices and smart plays makes it beatable (albeit it's nowhere near as easy as I make it sound), and it can be controlled reasonably well.
 
alexwolf said:
DFA you didn't get what tehy meant. When saying that Hippowdon counters sun, he meant that he counters the weather, not the team (he does most of the time but this is not done by Hippo alone). And this happens because whenever Ninetales is out, Hippowdon gets a free switch, and Sun will never be up, except if Tales uses Sunny Day on the switch. And even then Hippo can go for some mind games with the opponent. Do i send in my Xatu to refelct back his SR, or will he send this ugly Genesect of his and gain momentum if i bring in Xatu? Or even worse this ugly Stoutland, which can ko me with either Wild Charge or Pursuit?
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Well, the way that Tehy posted made me think that he wanted to say that Hippowdon could completely shut down sun teams by itself. It's obvious that, by having the right partners, you can defeat the sun team. Let's say that Hippowdon alone is not a counter to sun teams; the entire sand team with Hippowdon is.

But even though Specially Defensive Hippowdon is a good check to sun teams (this I must admit that it is, a good check to sun teams), with the battle, comes damage, and if Hippowdon isn't at full health, it will have a hard time trying to check even Ninetales.
 
@tehy: Good lord, calm down. Calling me a fool doesn't help your arguments any. You make Hippowdon out to sound a lot better than it is. In fact, your main argument for its viability against Chlorophyll sweepers is that they're useless outside of Sun. This is false. When Hippowdon switches into a Chloro sweeper, it is to get Sand up over the Sun that's already there. It is 2HKO'd by any Chloro sweeper, and even without the Speed boost that Chlorophyll grants in Sun, all Chloro sweepers still outspeed Hippowdon, forcing you to switch out even though your own weather is up. Band Victini 2HKOs any version of it with V-create. +1 Volcarona 2HKOs with Fiery Dance or Fire Blast. Genesect 2HKOs even SDef Hippo with Ice Beam. Overall, Hippowdon is extremely weak to Sun. Hell, it can't even switch into Ninetales without getting burnt by Will-O-Wisp.

@alexwolf: Granted, Hippowdon can play mind games with Sun teams, but it doesn't get a "free switch" into Ninetales by any means. Will-O-Wisp and Toxic both cripple Hippo badly, and Sunny Day makes your switch useless.

@Porii: Yeah, I'm surprised I don't see more dual sand and/or Shed Shell Tar on ladder, because they both check my Sun team pretty well. Btw, just for clarification, Scarf Ape outspeeds Modest Venusaur but does not outspeed Timid Venusaur, and a +2 Sludge Bomb will OHKO (+0 is a clean 2HKO, even without rocks). Scarf Ape is generally a good check to Sun, though, as it beats Dugtrio and Timid Saur isn't all that common.
 
But it DOES completely shut down sun teams. A sun team without sun is an NU team with poor synergy, and maybe some heavy hitters.

But it doesn't fucking switch in to a chloro sweeper. it switches in to NINETALES! NINETALES! NINETALES! As for WoW? Please. I lose 6% of my health per turn after lefties? You lose 25% every time you switch in. Toxic does not cripple me, and since i can unleash a powerful EQ and tank anything u can throw at me, my switch was NOT useless.

If you have spdef hippow, you technically do need partners, but they can be almost any viable OU pokes. It's not like it needs any specific support.
 
tehy said:
But it DOES completely shut down sun teams. A sun team without sun is an NU team with poor synergy, and maybe some heavy hitters.

But it doesn't fucking switch in to a chloro sweeper. it switches in to NINETALES! NINETALES! NINETALES! As for WoW? Please. I lose 6% of my health per turn after lefties? You lose 25% every time you switch in. Toxic does not cripple me, and since i can unleash a powerful EQ and tank anything u can throw at me, my switch was NOT useless.
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Okay, a) your EQ is only half as "powerful" after Will-O-Wisp burns you, and b) Sun teams almost always carry a spinner or Magic Bouncer, who you will be unable to do anything to with your only half-decent attack's power cut in half. And if it "doesn't switch into a Chloro sweeper", then I guess you're fine with letting said Chloro sweeper run all over your team. Think before you post.
 
Okay; A)My eq is still pretty powerful, and B)Sun teams almost always carry espeon who get stomped on the switchin AND is unable to force me out. Spinners? Meet spinblocker. Donphan with max attack evs can be a problem, but donphan's not that hard to wear down.

Think before you post? If i always switch into ninetales, sun is not up. HOW IS CHLORO SWEEPING W/OUT SUN?
 
Lavos Spawn said:
Okay, a) your EQ is only half as "powerful" after Will-O-Wisp burns you, and b) Sun teams almost always carry a spinner or Magic Bouncer, who you will be unable to do anything to with your only half-decent attack's power cut in half. And if it "doesn't switch into a Chloro sweeper", then I guess you're fine with letting said Chloro sweeper run all over your team. Think before you post.
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Lavos he is implying that Sun will never be up, as Hippo can switch into Tales througout the whole latch, so the Chloro sweepers won't be a problem, and Hippo wouldn't need to switch into them.
 
I'm not so much implying as outright stating it, but yes. Again, sunny day is a problem, but not a particularly large one, as ninetales will still die eventually and it's a rare-ass set. Toxic and WoW? You want to try to stall me when you have four-five switchins? And a lot of sun teams don't carry a spinner or a magic bouncer-when you pack a bunch of hyper-offensive stuff, you might want to pack as much of it as you can, in the hopes of not giving up free turns to support and killing stuff in general.
 
tehy said:
Okay; A)My eq is still pretty powerful, and B)Sun teams almost always carry espeon who get stomped on the switchin AND is unable to force me out. Spinners? Meet spinblocker. Donphan with max attack evs can be a problem, but donphan's not that hard to wear down.
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0 -2 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs 0 HP/0 Def Espeon: 33.58% - 39.85%

252 SpAtk Espeon Grass Knot vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Hippowdon (+SpDef) : 55.24% - 65.24%

You also fail to mention Xatu, who is a perfect answer to Hippowdon and doesn't care if you have a spinblocker or not because it reflects all the hazards you care to use.

tehy said:
Think before you post? If i always switch into ninetales, sun is not up. HOW IS CHLORO SWEEPING W/OUT SUN?
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Sunny Day is a quick and easy answer to that question. You switch in, Ninetales uses Sunny Day, your Sand is gone and your switch is pointless. Btw, I already explained this in a previous post, so before you ask another question check and see if I've answered it already.

I don't know what decent Sun team lacks a spinner or Magic Bouncer, if you can find me one I'll be very interested. I know the most common Sun team on ladder right now is Tales/Dug/Gene/Venu/Victini/Xatu (note the Xatu), and that hard walls Hippo, so...

Edit: On a different note, can we please keep this civil? Your brash tone isn't helping matters any.
 
Sighs...
Btw, i already explained why that isn't actually a big deal in another post, so before you ask another question apply basic logic.

As for espeon, when was the last time you seriously saw a defensive set run grass knot? You're mentioning extremely niche stuff. On a sun team espeon has many better things to do, and it usually does them. xatu i'll admit fucks me up, but i haven't seen serious, normal sun teams carrying that much. It is a problem, but all it does is cause a stalemate. I then switch stuff in on it and fuck it up. Yes, it has u-turn, thunder wave, and dual screens. I can still do it.

And if it is carrying GK, i only need 3 switch-ins to kill it, and if One of them is un-burned, g-fucking-g.
 
use stoutland along with hippowdon. ninetales doesn't dare come in on him, so the opponent has to play very carefully or they're losing one of their pokes, since stoutland can take out pretty much anything with its coverage moves (crippling if not outright OHKO'ing most stuff)...even better, stoutland is decently bulky, and is pretty tough to OHKO if you're not hitting it with a fighting type move, and since he's immune to residual sandstorm damage, you don't have to worry about that.
Sheer Force Lando + Stoutland. It's a good combination.
 
tehy said:
I'm not so much implying as outright stating it, but yes. Again, sunny day is a problem, but not a particularly large one, as ninetales will still die eventually and it's a rare-ass set. Toxic and WoW? You want to try to stall me when you have four-five switchins? And a lot of sun teams don't carry a spinner or a magic bouncer-when you pack a bunch of hyper-offensive stuff, you might want to pack as much of it as you can, in the hopes of not giving up free turns to support and killing stuff in general.
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I had to respond to this post because Sunny Day Ninetales is the single best set. Ninetales is a dead weight anyway, and with Sunny Day it can actually beat and force out opposing weather inducers.
 
Lol; it may or may not be, but it's almost never used. So i consider it Niche. If the whole metagame starts using it, then i may be forced to agree with you.

As for the civility thing, i consider ignoring the point of my argument and acting superior to me with no basis much more uncivil then me being honest.

Again, i haven't seen MUCH. You carry it and i'm aware of this, but i haven't seen much. Unfortunately, i play on PO, so i may be totally wrong and it's the new standard and blah blah, but other than that specific copy/pasted team, it's not really used.

Also, jimbon's heatran set was around before your team.

I'm going to go live my life now, i'll answer whatever counter-argument you have tomorrow. I'd suggest wobbuffett, it's a good one.
 
tehy said:
Lol; it may or may not be, but it's almost never used. So i consider it Niche. If the whole metagame starts using it, then i may be forced to agree with you.

As for the civility thing, i consider ignoring the point of my argument and acting superior to me with no basis much more uncivil then me being honest.

Again, i haven't seen MUCH. You carry it and i'm aware of this, but i haven't seen much. Unfortunately, i play on PO, so i may be totally wrong and it's the new standard and blah blah, but other than that specific copy/pasted team, it's not really used.

Also, jimbon's heatran set was around before your team.

I'm going to go live my life now, i'll answer whatever counter-argument you have tomorrow. I'd suggest wobbuffett, it's a good one.
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don't particularly enjoy jumping into other people's arguments, but calling someone stupid when they put up a valid counterargument is hardly a sporting thing to do. Hippowdon is not a viable thing to use expressly to beat sun. It's completely annihilated by boosted chloro sweepers, and it's still taking a ton of damage from unboosted ones. The only advantage it has over Ttar is that it's not dugtrio weak.

And where are you getting your opinion from?
Venusaur and victreebell are not the only viable chlorophyl users.
Are you saying that you're prepared to switch hippo into a leaf storm from shiftry? A giga drain from liligant?
And you're wrong. Liligant likes having sun up, but if she gets a quiver dance, she's more than capable of slaughtering.

frankly, ttar is much better at stopping sun. Choice Scarf T-tar basically checkmates ninetales. Same with band so long as Ninetales lacks WoW.
 
jonathanrp said:
don't particularly enjoy jumping into other people's arguments, but calling someone stupid when they put up a valid counterargument is hardly a sporting thing to do. Hippowdon is not a viable thing to use expressly to beat sun. It's completely annihilated by boosted chloro sweepers, and it's still taking a ton of damage from unboosted ones. The only advantage it has over Ttar is that it's not dugtrio weak.

And where are you getting your opinion from?
Venusaur and victreebell are not the only viable chlorophyl users.
Are you saying that you're prepared to switch hippo into a leaf storm from shiftry? A giga drain from liligant?
And you're wrong. Liligant likes having sun up, but if she gets a quiver dance, she's more than capable of slaughtering.

frankly, ttar is much better at stopping sun. Choice Scarf T-tar basically checkmates ninetales. Same with band so long as Ninetales lacks WoW.
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So, to clarify:

You read my argument enough to note that i discussed venusaur and victreebell, but not enough to realise i didn't recommend switching him into boosted grass-type attacks?

Lilligant? It's got giga drain and a hidden power. Dragons or heatran say hello, depending. Also volcarona, also skarm, also ferro.It's got sleep powder, which is nice, but it's hard-walled SO hard that it doesn't even matter. It can always take down some of the above pokemon, but not all of them, which is kind of a problem. Also, amoonguss is nearly a hard-counter, it can wait to wake up and then clear smog. It's beatable by lilligant, but hard as hell.

Are YOU prepared to switch scarftar into any of those things? I'd hazard a guess that you aren't. He takes them better, but can't heal.

Now, I generally beat sunny-day-less ninetales. YOU generally beat WoW-less ninetales. THE WHAT? I've seen one of those recently, it was a test specstales. And i never proved it didn't have that either.

I'm getting my opinion from reality. Shiftry is still such Eh. It's alright, but so many teams can revenge it with priority, and although i hold a special place in my heart for it, i recognize it's rarely actually used. Basically, it's victreebell with a mach punch weakness. Lilligant can do some nice stuff, sleep and healing wish, but it's basically like sleep powder venusaur, except it doesn't have the choice to even pretend to forgo sleep powder for one of the coverage moves it so VERY desperately needs. Also, i might be willing to take a giga drain from lilligant just to get SS up. It's not that strong and it's probably not giga draining on the switch.

As for checkmate, BS. It's more like a fork, sort of. If the enemy thinks you're going for his queen, he'll just run it away (Stone edge). If he thinks you're going for the rook, he has other options (Well he doesn't in chess. But yeah.). Hippowdon is an actual checkmate. For anyone here who's ever played chess, you remember all those times when you had a queen and a rook/2 rooks versus the king? Basically, you keep moving slowly and inexorably across the board. The king always has room to run, but eventually he runs into a wall, in my case the wall of <25% hp with SR up, in his case the board wall. SHACHMAT.
 
While I don't usually get involved in these kinds of arguments, I feel like I need to say something here. Look, Hippowdon is good against sun - no-one is denying or suggesting that. However, what is being suggested is that Hippowdon counters sun teams in their entirety, as well as Ninetales more specifically (as I understand it).

This is just false. Why? Well to be honest, there has been a huge amount of discussion over what a 'counter' is, but I'll reiterate it here, in my own words. That is, in order for X to counter Y, it must be able to switch in to the pokemon that it is countering without being crippled or severely damaged, and then handily beat that pokemon.

At this point, I would like to direct you to Ninetales' smogon analysis: http://www.smogon.com/bw/pokemon/ninetales

Look at the second set listed, entitled 'Sunny Day'. Well, that says it all. If Ninetales uses Sunny Day on the switch, then Hippowdon will not be able to keep Sun off the field unless he is paired with Tyranitar or is himself carrying Sandstorm (lol). So, against this particular set, Hippo is unable to counter Sun in the way that is currently being claimed. One other point to note is that this particular Ninetales carries Solarbeam:

252 +SA. Ninetales Solarbeam V. 252/252 +SD. Hippowdon**: 44.28-52.38%

Doesn't do a truckload, but enough that if Hippowdon gets weakened to half health through the course of battle, it risks getting KO'd by Solarbeam.

Next, look at the third set in the Ninetales analysis, 'Specially Defensive'. Slashed as an option on this moveset is Toxic. Now, you cannot seriously tell me that a Toxic'ed Hippowdon is not crippled; that damage racks up, even if you switch. Why? Hazards is why, especially with so many sun teams running Forretress - you can't afford to switch a whole bunch. Furthermore, seeing as hippo is so slow, you may even be able to mount an offensive pressure that makes it unable to get off the slack off; once Toxic'ed, Ninetales can start pulling off double-switches to screw Hippo over.

Next. Look at the Nasty Plot set, fourth set down. This one is really simple to explain. Hippowdon switches in. Ninetales uses Nasty Plot. Le result:

+2 Fire blast 252 SA Timid against 252/252+ Hippo: 78.09-92.14%

What this means is that Ninetales only needs a bit of prior damage (or a few layers of entry hazards), then it can outright KO Hippo with +2 Fire Blast

NEXT. Choice Specs Ninetales, fifth set listed. Calculation for 252 SA Timid Ninetales and 252/252 +SD Hippo

Overheat: 52.38-62.14%
-2 Overheat: 26-31%

Again, not a 2HKO, but with a bit of prior damage it could be.


Now, I know. None of the above sets outright beat Hippo on their own, barring perhaps Nasty Plot. And, I know. Some of the sets (such as Specially Defensive Tales with Toxic) may seem a bit flimsy in dealing with Hippowdon. However, the reason why I posted - and what I object to - is the notion that Hippowdon counters sun teams, by virtue of being able to switch in to Ninetales ad infinitum. But this is not the case. Any Ninetales with Sunny Day does not let Hippo win the weather war - so it's not shutting down sun in any way. Toxic, the status that all walls loathe with a passion, WILL cripple Hippowdon, and make it much more difficult for it to last the distance in a weather war. More offensive variants of Ninetales can deal pretty heavy damage to even the most Specially Defensive of Hippowdons, even outright beat them in the case of NP. And, none of these sets are 'gimmicks'. I just gave you four sets, all of them officially listed on this very site.

Hippowdon is not a complete counter to sun. It would be kind of ludicrous if it was - how many pokemon completely counter an entire playstyle/ weather? Of course, don't get me wrong - Hippowdon is awesome against sun; but you can't just shove him on your team as your answer to sun and call it a day either (which you would if it 'truly' countered sun). I'm not saying Hippowdon is rubbish - in fact, the very opposite. I just feel that we need to be more even-handed with our assessment of what Hippowdon can and can't do.

**Footnote: Hippowdon rarely ever runs 252HP/ 252Sp. Def Careful; in fact, it is not recommended on any Official Smogon analysis: http://www.smogon.com/bw/pokemon/hippowdon
The closest it gets is the 'Mixed Wall' set, but that set runs Impish to retain Hippo's good Physical bulk. Given this, keep in mind that the above analysis is the worst case scenario for Ninetales, and Hippowdon will rarely be so Specially bulky.
 
O.k, this argument has actually gotten out of hand. I don't think anyone is suggesting Hippowdon fully counters sun, its a stupid arguement, since Sun is a Team. It has 6 members, and suggesting that Hippowdon can handle all of them is a fucking retarded argument. The initial point, which I believe was made, was that Hippowdon deserves fair amount of consideration, due to the increased number of Dugtrio around, which frustrate Tyranitar, more than it does Hippowdon. This does not mean Hippowdon counters sun, nor does it mean that sun doesn't give a shit about Hippowdon. Yes, the grass types on sun teams can hurt Hippowdon badly, I am not denying this, however, Hippowdons mere presence frustrates sun teams, since it makes it much more difficult for sun to unconditionally win the weather war. I have played pretty much every team style in BW (well at least given them all a go), and I can honestly say, that when I use sun, I still get fucking frustrated when I run into a Hippowdon. Do I have Sunny Day Ninetales? Yep. Do I have Chlorophyll users such as Venusaur? Hell yes, does this mean Hippowdon isn't a pain in the fucking ass? Hell no.

Part of the reason Hippowdon is so frustrating, is the fact that it has Slack Off, a no drawbacks instant recovery move, which, when combined with good bulk, makes it tough to wear down. Sure, sun can handle it, but Hippowdon can frustrate sun by launching those STAB Earthquakes, which can be pretty darn annoying. It also, quite frankly, pisses me off when im running Sunny Day Ninetales, because if I want to Solarbeam that Rotom W, I have to be damn sure that Hippowdons not switching into that Solar Beam, and screwing me over, which in turn forces sun to be slightly more careful, when launching those Solarbeams with those fire types (Heatran and Ninetales are the 2 common ones).

Anyway, my post kinda went on a tangent but I still want to make the point that anyone who thinks Hippowdon counters sun is deluded, just like anyone who claims sun has no problems with Hippowdon is also deluded. Hippowdon does have a slight advantage over Tyranitar, in that it technically evens out the advantage sun tries to have by using Dugtrio (which Hippowdon doesn't really care about), thus prolonging the weather war, which in turn, makes the obvious weaknesses of Ninetales, more noticeable (for example, its shitty bulk and SR weakness), which a Hippowdon user can attempt to exploit. Its not a "win" on either side, both members will have teammates that can handle Hippowdon (the sun team), and Ninetales (the Sand Team), personally, I just think Hippowdon evens up the matchup (well its more even that Ninetales + Dug vs non shed shell Tar) ergo granting victory to whoever players the best.

By all means, you can continue this discussion, but I really don't want to see arguments such as "Hippowdon counters sun" or "Sun totally smokes Hippowdon" unless you can back this up with solid evidence. Basically, don't say, "Damn Hippowdon sucks cos Ninetales + Dug + Xatu + 2 Cloro users + 1 fire type fucking smoke it" because your not taking Hippowdones teammates into account. Its not Hippowdon vs the entire fucking sun team you know T_T.

tl;dr

Hippowdon does not counter sun, but neither does Sun totally shit on Hippowdon, imo 50/50 matchup, which will come down to what other teammates both sides have, and the skill executed on both sides.

Also sorry for the big post, didn't mean to make it this big honest to god.
 
Thanks for summarizing the argument; but i still believe that it essentially counters sun for one main reason, that being that unless they have sunny day, i almost 100% win the weather war right there. As such, the enemy is left with... well, basically a bunch of NU pokemon and maybe some fire-types, some of which hippowdon is capable of dealing with itself. Even if they have sunny day, they've still got to use it correctly, and if they lack a good spinner/espeon, either because i killed espeon/spinner or just burned their spinner with sableye, then i'll win soon enough anyhow.

I suppose hippowdon doesn't totally hard counter sun, but it's a massive advantage, sort of like trick room VS HO. Technically, unorthodox sets and great predictions MIGHT still let HO come out on top, but chances are that that won't be the case.

And massive wall of text post on the last page, ugh. Let me throw out some counter facts:

Fact: NP tales generally won't be able to rack up damage any other way. Since sun rarely carries a spinblocker and forry is utter spinbait, it's not all that hard to spin on his ass, preventing that from being legitimate either. As for the sunny solarbeam, they have to sunny day and THEN do it. If i'm not burned, they just DIED.

Toxic doesn't actually cripple hippowdon, because it won't often be staying in long anyhow. It's annoying for double switches, but seeing as how hippowdon usually gets SR up and keeps it up against sun, double switches aren't really all that big a deal. Since as so many people have pointed out, i don't wall chloro sweepers on sun, why do they stay in?

Oh yeah, and i never even said Spdef hippow was a standard set, just that it was a great one. Unlike all of my arguments that a set is niche, and therefore doesn't count, this one is predicated on whether or not this set actually does something, not the general playstyle, so don't even try throwing my words back in m face.

And yeah, even cspecs tales can't break hippowdon. You say "With a bit of prior damage", i say "Now ninetales has only 3 more switch-ins."

I happen to think, ginga, that it's more 75/25. I've gotten outplayed the hell out of before by sun teams and won just because of straight weather control.

Anyhow, i think i'd like to go back to my very original point, which is that hippowdon is amazing, awesome, and worth using any time on just about any team not involving a different weather.
 
Let's say this... You say that a Sun team without Sun is basically a NU team. But Venusaur in DPP era was UU, and according to it's DPP analysis, it was a dominant force in UU. And many NU Pokémon are perfectly fine on OU teams. Amoongus is a great check to threats like Keldeo. While Quagsire is RU, it was NU, and it was (and still is) used as a great check to any non-Grass-type setup sweeper. Gorebyss is great at Baton Passing Shell Smash, and Golurk as a niche spinblocking its own Stealth Rock and countering Terrakion. Underestimate NU Pokémon and you are going to lose, and lose badly. They are NU because they aren't getting much usage and are fine on that tier; not because they're weak.

Also, many teams, even non-Sun teams, don't carry spinblockers. As long as you can kill most spinners, you don't have to bother with a spinblocker unless you are using it for other reason (Gengar for sweeping, Jellicent for stallbreaking, etc). Even though Starmie can spin, it would be foolish if it tried to switch on Ferrothorn and spinned its Spikes.

And yes, Toxic in fact cripples Hippowdon. It makes winning weather wars much easier than if it weren't statused.
 
tehy said:
I happen to think, ginga, that it's more 75/25. I've gotten outplayed the hell out of before by sun teams and won just because of straight weather control.

Anyhow, i think i'd like to go back to my very original point, which is that hippowdon is amazing, awesome, and worth using any time on just about any team not involving a different weather.
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Eh, I think ginganinja summed it up just fine. It depends more on the team match up and the skill of both players, not just a " I have a spd.def Hippowdon so I basically I'll win 75/25."

Let's assume you're playing Lavos's sun team, team is here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3472159

If you're using some sort of spike-stacking team with hippowdown, how exactly are you going to win this match up faced up against a bunch of U turners + Xatu to block your attempts to set up hazards? I don't see it happening unless you severly out-play whoever is using this team against you. But I'd like to hear your strategy on winning this match up, without resorting to "easy solutions" such as shed shell heatran / shed shell t-tar / sheer feer landorus or w/e.

Now, if the sun team doesn't have xatu, and you're using some sort of standard hippowdon team with fortress / skarmory / ferrothorn for spikes + a spin blocker such as Jellicent or Sableye, then it's going to be very, very difficult for the sun team to win. See: dragonuser v. Oristeros (WestBest) - Replay

Note: I don't mean any disrespect to dragonuser here, am simply using this as an example because the battle is easy to find.

This is exactly the type of team match am talking about. A Hippowdown spike stacking team + spin blocker vs a solid sun team. The Hippowdon user [Oristeros] just easily takes this game without much prediction. So I agree with you that if you're using spd.def hippo + spikes + good spin blocker vs sun team with no magic bouncer user, then yes, you'll probably win based off team match up. But only in this very specific case.
 
A balanced sand team vs. a sun team that relies on spinning as opposed to Magic Bounce to deal with hazards is pretty much an automatic win for the sand team. You find a shot to get up SR with Heatran/Hippowdon [not if your SR mon is Tyranitar because that's inviting Duggy to come in and fuck you up but most good balanced sand teams use Tran/Hippo for SR purposes, since Banded/Scarfed Tar is overall more effective than the weak specially defensive mixed set]. Whenever they switch in their spinner, usually Forretress or Donphan, just send in Jellicent/Sableye and shut them down. Whenever Ninetales has to change the weather, it loses a quarter of its health. Volcarona doesn't appreciate SR either. Unless your team somehow loses to Growth Venusaur outside of sun, you've got yourself a pretty easy win.

On the other hand, if the sun team's got Magic Bounce, it's the one at an advantage since the sand team can't get up SR and therefore the sun team's most likely going to sweep you with Volcarona or Venusaur before you can whittle them down or take out Ninetales.
 
I don't really want to keep this argument going, but Hippowdon teams ALWAYS have a way around Xatu (in particular; Espeon can always be hit by EQ if you predict it coming in). Often, its Tyranitar (Hippo+ TTar obviously does win almost 100% against teams which are dependent on Sun), but usual strategies like Volt Switch -> powerful attacker (which offensive Sun teams generally can't handle without sacrificing) work too. Also, Hippowdon teams often don't care if Magic Bounce reflects SR, as they aren't hit too hard by it anyway and most carry a Spinner. On the other hand, if as a defensive team you get SR against an offensive Sun it's usually game over. So Hippowdon is often able to just SR spam against Xatu (yeah yeah Toxic on Xatu forces you to predict more in this situation), forcing it to stay in until the Sand user switches to Rotom-W / Terrakion / Latios etc etc. Gaining momentum in exchange for putting SR on your side of the field isn't a bad deal against Lavos sun and similar because they'll often be forced to sac something. (Btw, I do realise I'm assuming that the Sand team has both a sufficiently strong defensive core to weather the Sun based attacks and also has something which threatens to at least 2HKO Xatu - if they don't, and don't have any other recourse against Sun, then its simply a poorly built team).

Anyway, I wanted to talk a bit about RestTalkers, because I've used a lot of them lately and from what I can see a few of them are incredibly good right now. RestTalk SS Tran was of course popularised to deal with Lavos' team, but I've been using RestTalk on Lanturn and Hariyama on two different Hail teams successfully. Hariyama is insanely effective in this meta, basically singlehandedly beating the common Sun builds and walling Genesect. Lanturn (with Heal Bell and Scald in the last two slots) is also pretty amazing defensively. It walls 3/4 or more of most ladder Rain teams, can switch into Scald safely, and has a 56% chance of waking up before the 3 turns are up if it spams Sleep Talk. Obviously RestTalk Gyarados is still around as well, and a pretty nice anti-Garchomp. Has anyone else seen RestTalkers being used effectively?
 
Semi-stall is working out incredibly well for me, struggles only against a a certain typing and physical typing of another, both uncommon and rapidly become more so.(I'll keep these disclosed as I am still using this as my main team) Point being Weathless is still very viable, even with generic weather teams ramping around.
 
I would like to add to bubbly's post that Resttalk Gyarados was also fun to use in BW1- I deemed it the only viable one to use because it could select Dragon Tail or Roar consistently while asleep and hold off attackers with Intimidate. I don't see the appeal of Shed Shell Resttalk Tran, sure it beats sun teams but Resttalk with no Leftovers to help keep it up in BW might as well just be no healing at all. It's really an inefficient use of the mon unless you need to counterteam sun with the slot.

Can we ban that stupid shit already
 
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