np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 6 - Enter Sandman

[voodoo pimp]

i can't quite recall when exactly lower tiers affected tiering decisions in ou.

How often does OU make bans that affect lower tiers? From what I've seen, general consensus among the tiering leaders is that lower tiers should be taken into account when deciding bans. You may not care about them, but other people do.

 

[PDC]

Sand Veil is uncompetitive, and there is nothing more that can be said about it. A complex ban does not get rid of the problem entirely. Sand Veil is a joke, and needs to be eliminated. Cacturne loosing two moves is not enough to warrant a priority of a complex ban.

 

[alkinesthetase]

i've been staying out of this discussion because i've made my position on this matter clear so many times already, but that response (got ninja'd, referring to fiction) is ignorant and clearly indicates that you are missing the point. those mons were not in lower tiers to begin with. banning an individual pokemon will only influence tiers that the pokemon is actually in, duh. excadrill, thundurus, skymin, darkrai, deoxys and speed boost blaziken were ALL OU. sand veil is present in every tier, just that activated sand veil only exists in OU.

i'd like to thank zebraiken for his post because up until now it's felt like pocket and i were the only ones sticking up for cacturne and i've been on break. obviously neither bullet seed nor encore would ever be run on OU cacturne. that is beside the point as well. it is NU cacturne that would be negatively affected - and yes, it DOES get usage. whether it's here or there does not matter as long as it is influenced by the ban in question.

finally, BKC's point about sand veil hax being uncompetitive when it is turned against your own team. i actually agree with you, BKC. i DO believe that if sand veil hax is being used, it is equally uncompetitive whether for your own sand, or against an opponent's sand. my problem with the argument is that i believe the former is much more statistically relevant than the latter. sand is seeing titanic amounts of usage in the suspect ladder. even if you don't bring your own sand, it's plenty common enough that sand veil garchomp can be run to anti-hax opposing sand. this is not true in metas without garchomp (august stats on regular OU ladder: 16% sand usage) or in metas with only rough skin garchomp (~22% last i checked). sand usage in the suspect environment is unrealistically inflated by the presence of garchomp. sand veil usage is inevitably going to follow suit. i do not believe the significance will be great on standard ladder once people get over trolling each other with sand veil because rough skin accomplishes much more in general.

and finally, i'm getting sick of these OU > everyone else arguments. i absolutely hate using this word, but it is arrogant of any OU player to declare their metagame superior or more important than any other.

The "OU metagame" is the result of a search for a balanced game, where player skill, teambuilding skill, and a certain amount of luck combine to execute victory. The "OU metagame" is in no ways perfect, but it should be pointed out that 99% of multiplayer games are often plagued by imbalance and the resulting "tiers", and it is fortunate that Pokémon's detailed depth, combined with the intelligent minds of its players, working to prevent various abuses, is capable of producing a diverse and enjoyable arena. However, there is still a search for betterment—the "UU metagame" is an attempt to give a more interesting look at Pokémon that may not compete well with the stronger Pokémon of the game; on the other side of the spectrum, the "uber metagame" exists to develop an understanding of Pokémon's strongest and most brutal combatants. However, the "OU metagame", an entity that has existed in an official state since Pokémon Stadium's Poke Cup, is the main concentration of this document.

emphasis is mine. the focus of the document does not mean the focus of all ban policy. i cannot refute the fact that it says it, but i do not at all believe that it indicates OU overrides other tiers. the document even explicity mentions other tiers (ctrl-F "uu" or "nu") and that they, too, follow the "competitive ideal". the only real argument there is for OU being superior to any other tier is the personal position that OU is somehow better - utterly unjustified.

 

[voodoo pimp]

ok yes, the banning of deo-n, darkrai, skymin, blaziken, thundurus and excadrill all shook up the ru and nu metagames.

Er, what? I think you might have totally misunderstood what I was saying.

How often does OU make bans that affect lower tiers?

implied that you didn't think they consider lower tiers because they rarely make bans that would affect them (only thing I can think of is Moody, which is obviously broken in every tier anyway).

From what I've seen, general consensus among the tiering leaders is that lower tiers should be taken into account when deciding bans. You may not care about them, but other people do.

was a separarate point from the first part. Read it by itself and hopefully it'll make more sense. The issue was first brought up back in June when UU was considering banning Sand Veil, funnily enough.

 

[alamaster]

Man, Sand Veil keeps saving my ass in games I have no business winning lol...can't believe how often that 20% chance helps me, shit be crazy.

 

[Lee]

frankly I feel that if you can win the weather war and keep sand up then perhaps you deserve the tactical advantage of a slight evasion increase on one of your pokemon, just how a rain user might enjoy the double STAB or a Sun user gets to abuse Chlorophyll. Sand Veil can be a pain in the arse but it's not permanently in effect - it requires support to abuse, both in the teambuilding phase and throughout the match itself (unless you're both using Sand in which case...idk go nuts)

that said, I wouldn't lament it being banned under evasion clause but please no complex ban nonsense...

 

[PttP]

After playing over 100 games on Showdown's suspect ladder I've noticed Sand balance is by far the effective playstyle in BW2. Not just because of Garchomp, but because Rain / Sun / Deo-D offense / Weatherless weather counter teams can all be mostly countered in one package, Heatran can get you the advantage against Sun / Gene / Deo-D teams with the Scarf set, Rain just needs water resists, Torn-T counter and Latias for Thund-T and weatherless teams aren't going to be stronger than yours. The problem with Rain is that it's incredibly reliant on the weather and Genesect weak, Sun gets 6-0ed whenever someone runs Shed Shell Tran or Tar and Deo-D offense gets destroyed by modern Rain / Sun. Weatherless teams don't counter other weathers as well as a team with Tyranitar on it.

The two builds I see as viable are Tyranitar / Jellicent (so sun dies to rocks) / Steel / Lati@s / Heatran / Filler and Hippowdon / SpD Rotom-W / Lati@s / Steel / 2 picks between Stoutland / Landorus etc. I see no reason to run anything other than one of those besides Baton Pass lol.

post is so naive i dont even know where to begin

oh wait yes i do, i have an explanation for why you want deo-d banned - the two of your "ideal" team models have no way of beating it

smh other than that the whole post is a mess. my personal preferance is rain due to the fact that sandstorm rarely shows anything new and therefore easy to build against but what do i know hail sand. there is no "clear" playstyle that is the best and if you think so you are a "fool"

anyway ive never been haxed by a sand veil chomper but i guess thats because we have a special bond

 

[dice]

Garchomp is idiotic-- if all your Surfs turn into Hydro Pumps and its pure luck, obviously that is not logically competitive. Fishing for a miss and making Skarmory almost a necessity on non HO teams is dumb.

why are we even testing this

 

[Joeyboy]

With the complex ban, Sand usage will not be as bloated as we see now. SV Chomp's effect would thus be minimal. There's no more "misses outside of our own control," because now you CAN control whether to risk the Sand Veil hax or not. With SS + SV ban, there will be no casualties to non-broken mon, such as Cacturne, and SV hax would just be another minor luck element of Pokemon (as pharaohcalvin have put it).

It doesn't matter if the victim is Cacturne or Gliscor or Latios; what matters is that a ban should NOT negatively affect the usage of non-broken mon, whether they are viable in OU or not. There's absolutely NO reason to nerf them, so why should we?

In my eyes, we're actually bending over backwards to allow a borderline broken Pokemon back into OU to spice things up. ONLY Garchomp is broken with Sand Veil, so banning Sand Veil only benefits Garchomp. I'm open to allowing Garchomp in and have less hax factor in our metagame, but NOT at a cost of nerfing a perfectly non-broken mon who sees significant usage in the lower tiers. Especially not for a ban on something that's not even inherently broken like Moody.

Maybe I'm simply missing something but surely Drizzle + SS has already done this. Due to(arguably) the power of the big three SS sweepers Aldaron's Proposal was initiated. This has definitely negatively affected loads of other 'mons. I doubt any one could seriously say Luvdisc and Lumineon are uber when paired with Drizzle yet they see no usage. This is of course an extreme; my point is that 'mons such as SS Seismitoad and Floatzel might hold niches in the OU metagame were they allowed to be used with Drizzle yet because of the overarching complex ban they cannot.

Sand Veil is uncompetitive, and there is nothing more that can be said about it. A complex ban does not get rid of the problem entirely. Sand Veil is a joke, and needs to be eliminated. Cacturne loosing two moves is not enough to warrant a priority of a complex ban.

I agree, I always thought Sand Veil/Snow Cloak should fall into the Evasion Clause anyway..

 

[alkinesthetase]

Maybe I'm simply missing something but surely Drizzle + SS has already done this. Due to(arguably) the power of the big three SS sweepers Aldaron's Proposal was initiated. This has definitely negatively affected loads of other 'mons. I doubt any one could seriously say Luvdisc and Lumineon are uber when paired with Drizzle yet they see no usage. This is of course an extreme; my point is that 'mons such as SS Seismitoad and Floatzel might hold niches in the OU metagame were they allowed to be used with Drizzle yet because of the overarching complex ban they cannot.

if anything, aldaron's proposal directly proves pocket's point, because rain dance teams are actually playable in lower tiers due, at least in part, to the existence of many viable swift swimmers. a playstyle was preserved as a result of not blanket banning swift swim in general. the alternative would have been an even worse ban: complex-banning each individual swift swimmer that was deemed too good. whether or not that crosses a line is arguable, but it's definitely even more complicated than banning drizzle+ss together.

EDIT: pocket's point on allowing drizzle to remain in OU is something i missed since i was thinking mainly about the effect aldaron's proposal would have on lower tiers. it is however also a very good point

 

[Pocket]

No, what was on the line was Drizzle. So yea, Aldaron's Proposal actually saved the viability of many mons (and preserved a playstyle) in OU.

 

[Aldaron]

Uh, while I certainly consider lower tiers (I consider everything) when making my decision, whether or not a Pokemon has full accessibility to moves is a minor, minor concern.

So I highly recommend you all drop this "but Cacturne will lose x and therefore we shouldn't do y in OU" mentality because I'm like 99% sure the rest of the council members are on the same page as me on this...yea, we acknowledge the point, acknowledge it's not the greatest thing in the world, but our focus is on OU.

 

[alkinesthetase]

NOOO CACTURNEEEE

well in that case i will throw my support behind a complete sand veil ban, because if cacturne cannot be saved, we can at least excise this haxy stuff from OU. to my knowledge, no mon gets implicitly banned by losing sand veil since everyone has an alternate ability (i'm sure someone else would have brought that up by now), and it is undeniable fact that sand veil is creating unfair wins through lucky misses - something that i have never doubted. i never got around to answering BKC's question - would i be in favor of banning all sand veil if no lower tier mons were affected (paraphrasing)? the answer is yes.

cacturne, forever in our hearts

@ complete legitimacy below: i strongly agree with the first part of your post: there is a crucial difference between uncompetitive and broken. many would argue that garchomp is broken if it has sand veil. quite possibly true. however, i think the heart of the matter is that sand veil, whether or on garchomp or otherwise, is uncompetitive. veil gliscor is not broken but it is still a haxtastic mon whose influence on the game is undesirable. subsd cacturne probably sucks in OU but it's still winning based on hax and that is enough to deem it uncompetitive. while speed boost and sand rush are deadly abilities, neither of them are uncompetitive in the fashion that sand veil is, not even close. i don't see how the argument can be extended to the, because gliscor remains perfectly viable in OU without sand veil - the difference is that it can no longer hax people in that way. the set might not have been broken but it was still unfair.

ultimately what i see to be the heart of your argument is the statement that sand veil hax itself is competitively acceptable. an arguable statement to be sure, but one that i strongly disagree with. (i probably sound two faced here because i was arguing in cacturne's favor hardly 5 posts ago, and only 5 posts ago you and i were arguing for the same thing. however it has always been my position that sand veil hax should be avoided, just that i felt cacturne's movepool deserved greater concern under the condition that sand veil hax could not be brought in via sand stream. anyway that discussion is behind us now, so let's keep arguing like gentlemen/women.)

 

[complete legitimacy]

When we're talking about Sand Veil, we need to make sure that we're talking about whether it's uncompetitive or broken. The difference is very important here. If the majority of people think that Sand Veil is only uncompetitive but not broken, then a ban of Sand Stream + Sand Veil will serve us justice. However, if people still feel that a miss against Sand Veil Garchomp is unjustified when you and not your opponent sets up the sand, then that means that Garchomp is broken. There is absolutely nothing uncompetitive about this situation, as it is a perfect equivalent to missing Hydro Pump at a crucial time. As for BKC's example, it's exactly like this; he got unlucky, it happens sometimes, and we move on. He made a choice to bring sand, and ultimately paid the price for it. Also, to the arguments of, "I shouldn't have to take a risk to use a viable playstyle," that's just simply not how it works. If you want to enjoy the benefits of Hydro Pump over Surf, you can, but at a price. It balances things. Likewise, if you want the benefits of sand, you can have them, but at a price.

Notice how I said that if missing against Garchomp due to Sand Veil is still an issue under a complex ban, then Garchomp is broken. Not Sand Veil. If running your own sand and missing against Sand Veil Garchomp is so costly, then Garchomp is the problem, as there was nothing uncompetitive about Sand Veil in this circumstance, because as I've reiterated many times throughout my posts, risk/reward is not uncompetitive. I'm just gonna come out and say it that people like Garchomp too much. Why should we make an exception to a Pokemon which is broken because of its ability, label it uncompetitive (when under a complex ban it is most certainly not), and banish the ability to Ubers while other Pokemon suffer arguably worse nerfs. Why are we showing favoritism towards Garchomp? Don't get me wrong here, would I love to have Rough Skin Garchomp back in the metagame? Hell yeah (I've probably said "free garchomp" about 20-30 times in #pokemon over the past month). However, I don't think it's worth making an exception to policy because of favoritism and sweeping it under the rug.

One of the biggest problems people have with complex bans is the idea of a slippery slope fallacy. This occurs when people say, "If we start making complex bans for everything, we'll end up with Blaze Blaziken, Level 80 Kyogre, and ExtremeSpeed-less Arceus in OU." Like nearly all of you (I hope), I don't want to see this happen either. However, a flat ban on Sand Veil is even worse on the slippery slope effect than Sand Stream + Sand Veil. If under a complex ban you still feel the need to ban Sand Veil rather than Garchomp, then this creates nothing good, because while we all know that Sand Veil is the only reason is broken, but if you ban the ability, you have absolutely no defense against people who want to see abilities such as Sand Rush and Speed Boost banned as a whole. The most common and logical response to such propositions is that banning the ability will make several nonbroken Pokemon unviable. Such is the case here. So instead of Garchomp and Blaziken sharing their rightful place in Ubers, Garchomp gets out of jail for free while Blaziken is left to rot. That slope looks mighty slippery from my point of view.

EDIT: ugh ninjad by aldaron but this post talks about the other benefits of SV + SS so please still read the rest of this post

EDIT2: re: above edit: i only think that sand veil hax would be acceptable under a complex ban; without one i feel just as strongly about its uncompetitiveness as the rest of you. however, under a complex ban you couldnt consider sand veil uncompetitive anymore, thus making it equivalent to speed boost and sand rush. as for gliscor i personally doubt that it would be broken under a complex ban but it would be worth testing. we should arrive at our desired metagame in the best possible way, not the quickest way, especially when sand veil would likely be almost insignificant under a complex ban.

 

[ace combat]

I completely agree with Pocket that wee are bending over backwards so that people can use their favorite Pokemon in OU. It would be so much simpler if Garchomp JUST WASN'T ALLOWED IN OU, than to ban Sand Stream as a whole. When UU complained that they could no longer use their favorite Blaze Blaziken,what did we do? Nothing. We did not go to such extreme measures such as banning Speed Boost for all Pokemon. If we didn't do that in the past, then why are we doing it now? I know Garchomp is without a doubt the coolest Pokemon out there, but we should realize that what we are doing is affecting other parts of the metagame undesirably.

 

[Raikaria]

When we're talking about Sand Veil, we need to make sure that we're talking about whether it's uncompetitive or broken.

I completely agree with this point of view.

If Sand Veil itself was broken, then why does Gliscor use Poison Heal over it?

Why isn't Sandslash broken? Or Cacturne?

The only pokemon that Sand Veil breaks is Garchomp. Banning Sand Veil is just an excuse to bring Garchomp down to OU. Looking at other Sand Veil users tells you the ability itself is not broken, it is only broken in tandem with Garchomp.

So, with simple logic dictating that Sand Veil is not broken, that means the reason for it being removed is that it is uncompetitive, since it brings in an element of luck into the game.

By that logic we should also ban Cursed Body, Flame Body, Effect Spore, Poison Point, Static, Cute Charm, and all moves that have a percentage chance of a status effect, and all non-100% accurate moves. Since these all add an element of luck into the game. How many games have been lost due to a Flame Body proc from a Volcarona?

The argument that is used for banning Sand Veil is identically applied to these. This is not a slippery slope, as it is the exact same logic. Using these abilities and moves, like using Garchomp+Sand Veil, is adding an element of luck to the game, which is making it less competitive.

We should absolutely not ban Sand Veil. The reason for doing so is simply to free Garchomp, which should never be a consideration in the first place, banning a whole ability from multiple pokemon to free one. Next thing you know we'll ban Speed Boost to free Blaziken, screw Yanmega and Ninjask. Garchomp is the only thing broken with Sand Veil, like Blaziken is the only broken Speed Boost user.

If Garchomp with Sand Veil is broken, that is Garchomp's fault. Sand Veil does not break any other user of the ability. Thus, Garchomp is the cause, and should be banned.

We should only ban what is broken, not what is uncompetitive, or we open a massive can of worms and need to ban half of everything in the game due to the precedent set.

 

[pharaohcalvin]

Raikaria, I could not have said it any better. We should ban only things that are broken, and once again I'll say this 1/8 (2/8 for those who count Gliscor....) fully evolved users are broken with the ability. That doesn't scream Sand Veil is broken to me....

 

[Pocket]

The ban policy discussion is over. I apologize for taking part in the flame war. Only discussions on SV Garchomp and the suspect ladder metagame below this post.

 

[Nix_Hex]

By the way, If I see anyone posting more dictionary posts, making really insulting comments, or going way off topic, I will start infracting. I don't care if another mod deletes your posts, if you do one of the above, you are getting an infraction. Please don't raise my blood pressure and please just ease up on each other. >_>

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

Id like to chime in that I think Garchomp is still pretty much broken even without sand veil. My main reason for thinking so is that you need 2 pokemon generally to pin it down to either check it or wall it. And I am not speaking of various sets here, no I am talking about flat out yache SD Garchomp. Sure you can check it with scarf genesect (unless your facing PKgaming) and Latios (maybe like scarf-salamence) to always check it. So your options are either run those, (which lose to sub) or run multiple checks and / or counters. In short I find the lack of hard checks and counters to its most common non sand veil abuse set disturbingly small, and I really don't think Garchomp has anything positive to bring to the metagame.

I know its pretty much me against the world arguing this, so it would be appreciated if I didn't have like 5 people jump at me.

 

[PK Gaming]

It's ok, there are others who think the way you do so it's not really an alien train of thought. The way I see it, Rough Skin Garchomp is definitely not broken, especially in comparison to the tons of other BW OU threats that exist today. Terrakion, Tornadus-T, Genesect, Landorus-T and Breloom are Pokemon that are either as volatile or even more dangerous than Garchomp. In fact, Garchomp is even EASIER to check than the above threats. It has a counter in the form of Skarmory, and 2 strong checks in the form of Bronzong & Hippowdown. It's a dragon-type, and thus checked by the omni-potent-magnificent-i'm-in-every-battle-Genesect, and it's revenge killed/checked by a good deal of the faster threats in OU. (The lati twins, Keldeo, 108ers, Torn etc). I just deal with Garchomp the same way I deal with everything else in BW OU. Examine my options and play accordingly. Figure out the set, play conservatively with Forretress...

I said it before, but i'll say it again. Garchomp without Sand Veil is a high tier OU Pokemon at best. It's great, but not really overpowered.

---

HEY GUYS, THE MOST CREATIVE & RELIABLE TEAM EVER.

Lead Terrakion (with SR)
Garchomp (whatever set)
Keldeo (Scarf or maybe just run Jellicent lol)
Breloom (SD LO or Fight gem)
Landorus-I (dat special set)
Genesect (GENEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!)

congratulations, you have a good team.

 

[Phozon]

I would just like to say I don't think Garchomp is broken at all. As I said before, Terrakion will out pace any non scarfed chomp and a CC from Terrakion thats not choiced will do about 75% or so. A CB Terrakion has the chance to KO chomp. Also, Latios out paces Garchomp and a Draco to Chomp will be over kill. Even a Timid Latios' Dragon Pulse has a 60% to OHKO chomp ( w/o any kind of boosting item ). A Special Latias could also deal with Garchomp if you really want to bring it up. Chomp has pokes to deal with it. Its just a matter of predicting when to bring the poke in on it.

 

[Jukain]

Oh my gosh that team is even weatherless pk.... mind = blown

Yeah I have to say that if Sand Veil is what gets banned that will be the best solution. It has almost zero negative effect and solves the issue and we keep Garchomp. Problem = Sand Veil, Solution = Ban

 

[Devidra]

I admit I do miss garchomp but the truth is I would rather keep him Uber than blocking alternate sets for other SV users who dont break the ability. Its been said plenty already but its the combination of state, typing and ability that make garchomp so hard to counter reliably.

 

[Schpoonman]

It's not entirely a question of who/what breaks an ability. It's a question of "Is this acceptable in a competitive environment," which a lot people are finding Sand Veil to absolutely not be. Gliscor doesn't NEED Sand Veil to use SubSD Acro (hell, it might be beneficial to use PH, due to blocking sleep, paralysis, and burn), but it's a bullshit playstyle that doesn't reward superior playing and teambuilding, which a competitive environment should.

Who is the player that people keep bringing up that topped the ladder with SubSD Cacturne and Acrobat? Really, that speaks for itself when they topped the ladder thanks to CACTURNE.

I haven't been laddering much (though I played a decent amount when RS Chomp was freed), but I have been keeping up with the thread. Sand Veil is the problem, there's no getting around that. People are crying foul all over the place because it feels a little like we're trying to bring back a fan-favorite (though I kinda feel these people are just getting worried they could lose their Acrobat) and damning everything else, but I think it's a great time to reexamine the metagame, and yes, bring back a fan favorite because he can contribute to a now vastly different metagame than when he was introduced.

When BW1 was released, he was banned because, like in DPP, Sand Veil was a bitch and it made him too powerful. For whatever reason, rather than take a look at the Ability (a precedent which I will admit can be approaching slippery slope), which I feel does touch on Evasion Clause, they hit him with the banhammer like they did in DPP.

Now, Sand Veil (and possibly, one day, Snow Cloak) is being examined under the Evasion Clause. And in looking at Sand Veil, we're also taking a look at its #1 most infamous abuser, Garchomp. The first suspect test concluded overwhelmingly that he's good. One of the best, possibly. But he's manageable. Now Lati@s, the four musketeers, and Tornadus exist to put a damper on his plans. He's clearly NOT the problem. The difference between Sand Veil and Speed Boost/Sand Rush is that fucking Cacturne can't sweep you thanks to Speed Boost.