Neutral Aero outspeeds neutral Venusaur, but you need Jolly to beat neutral Sawsbuck, Liligant, and Leafeon. Now, how about some damage calcs?
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread
- Thread starter PK Gaming
- Start date
- Status
Choice Scarf 252 Atk Ev's Jolly Aerodactyl Fire Fang:
4 HP / 0 Def Venusaur in sun: 214-254 (70.86 - 84.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 HP / 0 Def Sawsbuck in sun: 246-290 (81.45 - 96.02%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 HP / 0 Def Lilligant in sun: 234-276 (82.97 - 97.87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
80 HP / 0 Def Leafeon in sun: 146-174 (50.17 - 59.79%) -- 80.86% chance to 2HKO
4 HP / 0 Def Victreebel in sun: 260-308 (86.09 - 101.98%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
4 HP / 0 Def Venusaur in sun: 214-254 (70.86 - 84.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 HP / 0 Def Sawsbuck in sun: 246-290 (81.45 - 96.02%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 HP / 0 Def Lilligant in sun: 234-276 (82.97 - 97.87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
80 HP / 0 Def Leafeon in sun: 146-174 (50.17 - 59.79%) -- 80.86% chance to 2HKO
4 HP / 0 Def Victreebel in sun: 260-308 (86.09 - 101.98%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
I have always used Aerodactyl on my teams and the best set is by far:
stone edge/rock slide (preference)
EQ
Taunt
Roost
They lead Deoxy's D? No problem taunt it and spam your chosen stab move on the switch since only 4 pokemon in the game double resist rock. I go with stone edge because I love the extra power and the increased chances for a crit. He can revenge kill, and if you predict an obvious switch you can always roost back stealth/life orb damage.
If only GF could have given him U-turn...
stone edge/rock slide (preference)
EQ
Taunt
Roost
They lead Deoxy's D? No problem taunt it and spam your chosen stab move on the switch since only 4 pokemon in the game double resist rock. I go with stone edge because I love the extra power and the increased chances for a crit. He can revenge kill, and if you predict an obvious switch you can always roost back stealth/life orb damage.
If only GF could have given him U-turn...
I agree nites bets set was held back so badly by genesect that is dragon danceand so was garchomp, even at full health a 1+ gene could cut through nite like butter at times and garchomp would have his sub destroyed then himself destroyed if he stayed in and using sub limits him to EQ outrage, still awesome coverage but still laughed at by skarmory and pals.
I believe that Staraptor should be in B rank or maybe even A rank. Although it receives huge recoil from its attacks, it can deal a lot of damage to most pokemon with CC, BB and Double-Edge. IMO, Scarf Staraptor is a great set as it acts as a great revenge killer. It OHKOs pokemon with over over 50% HP more often than not in my case. Of course, it needs a spinner to ensure its safe switch-in.
the problem is he's usually choiced and easy to predict and wall, forcing switches and more rock damage. if he runs LO, recoil damage + life orb damage makes him not able to switch back in. should u use a move like CC, his defenses becomes paper and is easily revenged by priority. still a great poke, but to be in the same tier as Garchomp, latios and scizor is a bitch of a stretch. I would say C-rank as he needs the correct support around him to be effective consistently.
Yea ummmm, Deoxys-D uses Magic Coat and GG your Aerodactly got its taunt slammed back on it, denying you SR. Or, Deoxys uses Mental Herb, and GG it taunts you back, then sets up a layer of SR and Spikes while you try and KO it with SE / EQ
^I think that's more indicative of Deo-D being way too goddamn good, but you make a valid point. Aerodactyl has a better niche as a revenge killer than he does as a hazard setter in BW2.
This is exactly what I think. He works as a pretty awesome offensive pivot by revenge killing super threats like Tornadus-T, and with his EdgeQuake combo he does some serious damage to Sun teams, while being able to throw up Rock if he wants to. If only he could learn U-Turn... troll freak. Sure lets give every other Flying type U-Turn but completely ignore Aero.
Hell, if Aerodactyl could learn fucking Brave Bird, I'd put him on every team. I mean shit, he even gets Rock Head as an ability, but no Brave Bird??
seconding this
also let it be known that if not for aerodactyl's supreme power as a lead, jackal's lead azelf hyper offense team would have beaten me in wcop prelims, west would not have broken to quarterfinals, and fourteen or so lovely men would not hold this blue trophy. c tier please.
and no he does not get head smash why is everyone obsessed with rock head you guys are rock hard for rock head
Does he get Head Smash?
Unfortunately, no. It's really a shame, it has the perfect typing to abuse recoil moves and doesn't get any.
I am really not convinced that Aerodactyl should be moved out of D-tier at all.
The main reason is some of these sets that are being used are almost all outclassed and I fail to see their merit. When are you ever going to set up a Hone Claws on Aerodactyl with its frality? Why not just use something stronger like Terrakion, which has Swords Dance? Why not just use something with a Choice Band with several Powerful moves, possibly boosted by weather? Why would you ever use Scarf Aerodactyl? Or Taunt plus Roost Aerodactyl? If you're going to go for a fast cleaner... once again Terrakion takes the cake with a Scarf. The second set is outclassed by Crobat most of the time since it has a better bulk and a better defensive typing (and Brave Bird so it hits harder) and it isn't even that good in OU to begin with. Aerodactyl only has two advantages over Terrakion - a immunity to Earthquake and the ability to outspeed a lot of Pokemon that Terrakion cannot. Even then, Aerodactyl's only good offensive move happens to be Stone Edge, which is imfamous for missing every five seconds for a very good reason. Earthquake is OK but it is getting to be unrelaible. 105 Base Attack to go alongside this move makes it a rather below average physical attacker, especially when you consider that there are many Pokemon packing 120 Base Power STAB moves with perfect accuracy, technical double STAB with weather, a higher attack stat with dual STABs (Aerodactyl has no good Flying moves), or more than one of these!
Aerodactyl is only worth using in OU if you are going to lay down a fast Stealth Rock, and even then, there are many other options for setting up the move - most of the time Deoxys-D does a better job than it, which is what makes it worthy for D-tier, where it is now.
The main reason is some of these sets that are being used are almost all outclassed and I fail to see their merit. When are you ever going to set up a Hone Claws on Aerodactyl with its frality? Why not just use something stronger like Terrakion, which has Swords Dance? Why not just use something with a Choice Band with several Powerful moves, possibly boosted by weather? Why would you ever use Scarf Aerodactyl? Or Taunt plus Roost Aerodactyl? If you're going to go for a fast cleaner... once again Terrakion takes the cake with a Scarf. The second set is outclassed by Crobat most of the time since it has a better bulk and a better defensive typing (and Brave Bird so it hits harder) and it isn't even that good in OU to begin with. Aerodactyl only has two advantages over Terrakion - a immunity to Earthquake and the ability to outspeed a lot of Pokemon that Terrakion cannot. Even then, Aerodactyl's only good offensive move happens to be Stone Edge, which is imfamous for missing every five seconds for a very good reason. Earthquake is OK but it is getting to be unrelaible. 105 Base Attack to go alongside this move makes it a rather below average physical attacker, especially when you consider that there are many Pokemon packing 120 Base Power STAB moves with perfect accuracy, technical double STAB with weather, a higher attack stat with dual STABs (Aerodactyl has no good Flying moves), or more than one of these!
Aerodactyl is only worth using in OU if you are going to lay down a fast Stealth Rock, and even then, there are many other options for setting up the move - most of the time Deoxys-D does a better job than it, which is what makes it worthy for D-tier, where it is now.
Yeah, the full extent of its recoil attacks to abuse Rock Head with is... Double-Edge and Takedown.
So really, just Double-Edge. Which is at least okay for neutral coverage, but man. That's just cruel.
The only thing you will be hitting with Taunt that's faster than Terrakion is Azelf, and that alone is hardly worth C-Tier. Terrakion can beat a hell of alot more 1 v 1 than Aerodactyl, which usually just sets up Rocks, and then dies.
I'm going to repeat my proposal that Cloyster should be in C-tier. There's just nothing too amazing about it that would justify a place in B-tier with other, more effective sweepers - even after a Shell Smash it doesn't quite hit hard enough to break through the common bulky Waters/Steels, and isn't fast enough to avoid being revenge killed by most Scarfers. It's also extremely difficult to set up as almost all Special attacks will OHKO it, and even some Physical attacks will do a ton after a Defense drop. It may be quite high in the usage statistics, but remember that it's very popular lower down in the ladder. I almost never see Cloyster used by any of the top ladder players - there's bound to be reasoning for that. However, one Cloyster set that does have great potential, that sadly no one uses, is mixed LO with Naive nature. It's fast enough to outspeed Scarf Terrakion, can easily OHKO defensive Steels with a rain boosted Hydro Pump and hits harder in general thanks to Life Orb.
If anyone has a solid argument for Cloyster's placement in B-tier, then I'd be delighted to hear it. Otherwise, I stand by my notion that it just isn't dominant enough to get a place in B-tier.
If anyone has a solid argument for Cloyster's placement in B-tier, then I'd be delighted to hear it. Otherwise, I stand by my notion that it just isn't dominant enough to get a place in B-tier.
I wish to vote zoroark for B rank. He can not sweep a vast majority of the meta as required in S and A, he requires some support (he prefers no hazards to give the disguise up), and maybe fighting types removed, and good "partners" and "disguises", however, he has a solid niche. He can act as a ninja and assassinate certain threats. For example, if he runs a physical set he can bluff as a special attacker, and either kill or severely injure blissey. And if running a mixed set he could do the same to skarm. So in my opinion, although not even OU, I have used him and I know what he is capable of
Hi!
Okay, I really think that Chandelure doesn't deserve the D rank. It's a extreme powerfull wallbreaker and basically nothing can safely switch-in in a sun-boosted Fire Blast from the Specs set. It need to be C-rank or B-rank, but I would say about moving it to the C-rank first. Here's the definition of the C rank:
"Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support..."
Chandelure really needs a Rapid Spinner, thanks to it SR weakness, while sun from Ninetales is also needed to it's full power, much like others Sun threats. Stealth Rock is very appreciated, as with it he will beat walls like Blissey. I think that it isn't reason to make it D tier, as others Pokémon like Venusaur also needs it.
"...but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy..."
The SR weakness and below average speed are it's worse flaws, as with it Chandelure can't go much further.
"...or are typically inferior to Pokemon in the above ranks."
It IS NOT outclassed by Heatran for the Specs set. Chandelure can pass through Pokémon like Lati@s, TTar (SpecsTran only 2HKO with the very uncommon Flash Cannon) and Politoed much more easily. Heatran is neutral to SR, is bulkier and even have great resistances, but Chandelure have it advantages too: spinblocker, Fighting imunnity, better Speed, greater secondary STAB, and much more sheer force. Heatran may have Eruption, but can't use it effectively as is nature locked and will need to slash off a coverage move. Chandelure also have Energy Ball, while Heatran need to rely on Solarbeam or a weaker version in Hidden Power.
Chandelure acts like Choice Band Victini. Hit as hard you can while the opponent switch out! Thanks to its three imunnities (including Flash Fire), specially for very dangerous types, it can do it very well. Here some calcs of it sheer force under the sun:
Of course it can use Shadow Ball to Lati@s, but as Fire Blast hit they so hard, you won't need to rely on a predict that can sacrifice the match. It sheer force is also very good in a weather war, as it can do heavy damage to any weather inducer that try to remove it precious sunny day. Also, Dragon-types can't switch-in on Chandelure front under the sun: Dragonite is OHKO'd with SR (Parashuffler is 2HKO'd), while Haxorus and Salamence don't even need SR, and Kingdra is 2HKO'd! To have some idea, Choice Specs Heatran's Overheat do 59% max. and can't 2HKO under the sun.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Overheat vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kingdra in sun: 147-173 (50.51 - 59.45%) -- 3HKO with Special Attack drop!
Chandelure can use Substitute (or SubSplit), as it's also very good. However, Choice Specs is the best one as it do a great amount of damage on switch-ins. And don't say about the Choice Scarf set, please, it really sux. Thanks to it, I would like to suggest Chandelure for C-rank.
Okay, I really think that Chandelure doesn't deserve the D rank. It's a extreme powerfull wallbreaker and basically nothing can safely switch-in in a sun-boosted Fire Blast from the Specs set. It need to be C-rank or B-rank, but I would say about moving it to the C-rank first. Here's the definition of the C rank:
"Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support..."
Chandelure really needs a Rapid Spinner, thanks to it SR weakness, while sun from Ninetales is also needed to it's full power, much like others Sun threats. Stealth Rock is very appreciated, as with it he will beat walls like Blissey. I think that it isn't reason to make it D tier, as others Pokémon like Venusaur also needs it.
"...but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy..."
The SR weakness and below average speed are it's worse flaws, as with it Chandelure can't go much further.
"...or are typically inferior to Pokemon in the above ranks."
It IS NOT outclassed by Heatran for the Specs set. Chandelure can pass through Pokémon like Lati@s, TTar (SpecsTran only 2HKO with the very uncommon Flash Cannon) and Politoed much more easily. Heatran is neutral to SR, is bulkier and even have great resistances, but Chandelure have it advantages too: spinblocker, Fighting imunnity, better Speed, greater secondary STAB, and much more sheer force. Heatran may have Eruption, but can't use it effectively as is nature locked and will need to slash off a coverage move. Chandelure also have Energy Ball, while Heatran need to rely on Solarbeam or a weaker version in Hidden Power.
Chandelure acts like Choice Band Victini. Hit as hard you can while the opponent switch out! Thanks to its three imunnities (including Flash Fire), specially for very dangerous types, it can do it very well. Here some calcs of it sheer force under the sun:
- 252+ SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias in sun: 208-246 (57.14 - 67.58%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- 252+ SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios in sun: 242-285 (80.13 - 94.37%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- 252+ SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Hidden Power Fighting vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 190-224 (49.35 - 58.18%) -- 58.98% chance to 2HKO; guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
- 252+ SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey in sun: 306-361 (46.93 - 55.36%) -- 16.8% chance to 2HKO; guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (with Leftovers)
- 252+ SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Hidden Power Fighting vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in sand: 264-312 (65.34 - 77.22%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- 252+ SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Politoed: 312-368 (81.25 - 95.83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO; 56.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
- 252+ SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Multiscale Dragonite in sun: 131-154 (40.55 - 47.67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO; guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (80.8 - 95.35% w/o Multiscale)
Of course it can use Shadow Ball to Lati@s, but as Fire Blast hit they so hard, you won't need to rely on a predict that can sacrifice the match. It sheer force is also very good in a weather war, as it can do heavy damage to any weather inducer that try to remove it precious sunny day. Also, Dragon-types can't switch-in on Chandelure front under the sun: Dragonite is OHKO'd with SR (Parashuffler is 2HKO'd), while Haxorus and Salamence don't even need SR, and Kingdra is 2HKO'd! To have some idea, Choice Specs Heatran's Overheat do 59% max. and can't 2HKO under the sun.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Overheat vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kingdra in sun: 147-173 (50.51 - 59.45%) -- 3HKO with Special Attack drop!
Chandelure can use Substitute (or SubSplit), as it's also very good. However, Choice Specs is the best one as it do a great amount of damage on switch-ins. And don't say about the Choice Scarf set, please, it really sux. Thanks to it, I would like to suggest Chandelure for C-rank.
windwolf777 said:
I'd definitely agree in saying that Zoroark does have a certain niche in OU, but I really do not think it is B-Tier. While it can perform a role that no other Pokemon can, the support required to make it consistently work outweighs the actual benefits. Upon team preview, your opponent already knows you have a Zoroark, making it even that much harder to make it work. Any competent player can will notice when an ability does not activate, or notice the extra hazard damage upon switching in, and I'd argue that the whole appeal of using Zoroark kind of fades away upon team preview. It can also be pretty easy to play around, especially as a lot of people I see using Zoroark switch it in while it is still revealed to seem like that it is countered (Zoroark disguised as Gliscor, switches into Skarm). It's pretty obvious that a Flamethrower is going to come your way, and I just think it is far too inconsistent. I went through the liberty of testing Zoroark pretty recently actually, and the results were very disappointing. 9/10 people will know when it is coming in, and when you take that away from Zoroark, you're left with a pretty sub par, relatively slow Special Attacker which is outclassed by other Special Attackers in the higher ranks.
I'm not debating Zoroark's effectiveness. If you have consistently good results with it, then feel free to disregard my comments. But I feel like it's one of those Pokemon that is very hit or miss. It's also worth mentioning that it's pretty weak to hazards, very frail and I honestly have never seen it been used successfully.
isr said:
I'd agree with this, Chandelure is a pretty underrated Pokemon, especially in terms of how powerful it is and how good it can be for spinblocking purposes for offensive teams. If Victini is C-Tier, then I'd argue that Chandelure would also fit well in C-Tier, especially considering the two function very similarly, just on different sides of the physical / special spectrum. But yeah, it hits super hard and it's pretty hard to switch into if you don't have a dedicated answer for it.
Leading on from this, I'd argue that Victini is B-Tier. Like I said before, Chandelure and Victini perform similar roles, hitting real hard. I think Victini is a little more effective than Chandelure though, having access to U-Turn and Bolt Strike meaning it can break through bulky waters. Victini also has better bulk and a higher base Speed, more than making up for the lower offensive stats in comparison with Chandelure. There are a lot of things that Victini outspeeds that Chandelure doesn't such as Mamoswine, Lucario, Gliscor and Kyurem. I think the main thing separating the two however is that Victini doesn't necessarily need to run a Choice set to be effective. V-Create on it's own sets Victini apart from every other Pokemon in the game, as Victini will always have that ability to literally 2HKO everything at will, while still being able to switch up moves, meaning Victini can have a better time sweeping, and if not sweeping, certainly taking out 2 or 3 Pokemon while doing so. I'd say that Victini is the best Physical Fire type in OU, despite not even being an OU Pokemon. I think that in itself is enough to move it up from C-Tier to B-Tier.
Chandelure only has one good stat and everything else working against it. Why do I need a counter for Lure when the Rain is up and the only Pokemon it can really do anything to is Ferrothorn? (And sadly Ferrothorn can still break its subs with Gyro Ball and Power Whip, so the player doesn't have to give you any momentum if they don't want to.) If I'm Sand and running Tyrannitar, it'll probably be really hard to get even one kill. Sun, granted, has problems dealing with Lure, but one out of three common weathers is not a good bet. Those lovely calcs conveniently assume that Chandelure will always be on the offensive, which is hard to do with such low speed and nothing much to abate it.
Chandelure would have probably been C-tier early in BW1, but Drizzle just about dwarfs the effectiveness of offensive Fire types outside of Sun, especially with Chandelure's already ubiquitous weaknesses (hazards, Ttar, any sweeper at all). Even C-tier wallbreakers give it stiff competition (Victini, Haxorus, Infernape).
Chandelure would have probably been C-tier early in BW1, but Drizzle just about dwarfs the effectiveness of offensive Fire types outside of Sun, especially with Chandelure's already ubiquitous weaknesses (hazards, Ttar, any sweeper at all). Even C-tier wallbreakers give it stiff competition (Victini, Haxorus, Infernape).
- Status