np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 10 - Hazard

[alamaster]

Dude come on, at least think about what youre saying before posting. Did i said Crustle has all of Deoxys-D tricks? No, i said it does the same thing: setup rocks+spikes, with similar efficiency. Similar, not identical.

Dude come on (step it up), Forretress does the same thing, Skarmory does the same thing, and wait, those are all OU already! The thing that makes Deo-D so tough to defeat is the high speed, access to Taunt, Magic Coat, and good bulk on BOTH sides. Yea they all Spike and SR, so what? They can't get it off with any consistency like Deo-D can, which is the entire reason Deo-D is a suspect.

Of course Deoxys-D is better i am not even denying that.

Then what's your point? Lol. Yeah I'm sure Crustle can do a nice job on occasion but it is in no way a viable replacement for HO teams.

Moltres is a viable Hurricane spammer but nobody is gonna argue it is a good replacement for Tornadus-T. That would be a silly reason to keep it unbanned! Step it up next time braj, ur too slow!!!

 

[Reymedy]

So Deoxys-D puts more pressure than the others. But well, in the end who cares. It's not about comparing Deoxys-D to the other spikers or once again, we'll go nowhere.

My point being, there always will be a spiker better than the others in pokemon. I see no reason to ban the better spiker, else in the end, there will be none left.
Being "better" is not an argument to ban a pokemon, there will always be better pokemons, we need this pokemon to be broken.
And since the "omfg Deoxys-D is a monster of versatility and raw power" does not sound so good to my hears from what you people brought, I'm still not in the favor of a ban.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Dude come on (step it up), Forretress does the same thing, Skarmory does the same thing, and wait, those are all OU already! The thing that makes Deo-D so tough to defeat is the high speed, access to Taunt, Magic Coat, and good bulk on BOTH sides. Yea they all Spike and SR, so what? They can't get it off with any consistency like Deo-D can, which is the entire reason Deo-D is a suspect.



Then what's your point? Lol. Yeah I'm sure Crustle can do a nice job on occasion but it is in no way a viable replacement for HO teams.

Moltres is a viable Hurricane spammer but nobody is gonna argue it is a good replacement for Tornadus-T. That would be a silly reason to keep it unbanned! Step it up next time braj, ur too slow!!!

OFF: Dam i was going to say youre too slow.
ON: Yes it cant do the with the same efficiency but still does it. The point is even if Deoxys-D got banned HO teams wouldnt stop existing.

 

[alamaster]

OFF: Dam i was going to say youre too slow.
ON: Yes it cant do the with the same efficiency but still does it. The point is even if Deoxys-D got banned HO teams wouldnt stop existing.

Yeah but who cares? We aren't going to ban or not ban Deo-D based on whether HO team will still exist, we're going to make a decision based on how broken it is.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Yeah but who cares? We aren't going to ban or not ban Deo-D based on whether HO team will still exist, we're going to make a decision based on how broken it is.

I know you didnt said that but some people did. Anyway i just though about something interesting. Though the dual hazards taunt filler set is the most talked about it just came to my head that deoxys d could run an effective dual screens set. Simply put behind the screens he could setup hazards against literally everything that doesnt carry taunt. I just figured this set could actually be broken.

 

[Bluwing]

Deoxys-D is an extremely versatile pokemon that is hard to counter because you never know which set it runs due to it's amazing movepool which is causing mindgames and puts you in a bad position from the start. But this doesn't mean Deo-D is the bread and butter for hyper offensive teams, as there is a lot off good hazard setters out there that can do a formidable job like Garchomp, Terrakion, Mamoswine and Azelf as all of them can keep an offensive pressure on the opponents team, but the thing is their versatility isn't the same as Deo-D as Deo-D has a much better support movepool and better bulk, but the aforementioned pokemon I said earlier has the speed and the power to actually break through the opposing team which I mean is a good enough factor for not banning Deo-D as it has great competition from those, and it really just benefits from what you're team needs. Of course Deo-D has Spikes which can be benefitial, but often you only need Stealth Rock for a sweeper too break through a team which all of aforementioned pokemon can setup.

 

[Lavos]

I know you didnt said that but some people did. Anyway i just though about something interesting. Though the dual hazards taunt filler set is the most talked about it just came to my head that deoxys d could run an effective dual screens set. Simply put behind the screens he could setup hazards against literally everything that doesnt carry taunt. I just figured this set could actually be broken.

http://www.smogon.com/bw/pokemon/deoxys-d

third set from the top

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

http://www.smogon.com/bw/pokemon/deoxys-d

third set from the top

I meant with spikes too. That way he could fullfill both roles.

 

[G-Von]

http://www.smogon.com/bw/pokemon/deoxys-d

third set from the top

I think a moveset of Spikes/Light Screen/Reflect/Magic Coat or Taunt would be more efficient and I would personally go with MC>Taunt.

But yea the second I saw SmashBrosBrawl's post the first words out of my mouth were "wow that's so broken".

 

[Lavos]

I meant with spikes too. That way he could fullfill both roles.

that would probably only be a good set against teams that lack a spinner, a taunt user, or basically any setup 'mon, and those types of teams are extremely rare (in tournament play, they're downright nonexistent). deoxys-d without taunt, magic coat, seismic toss, thunder wave, or any niche offensive move is basically the worst of both worlds. unlike the niche offensive sets, you're now fodder for rapid spin, and unlike the taunt/magic coat sets, you are now taunt bait and setup bait. really not worth using imo.

g-von, spikes + dual screens + taunt/magic coat could potentially be plausible, but if we assume that the item is going to be light clay, then you're still looking at a hazard setter that can do absolutely nothing to rapid spinners. and even if you're running rocky helmet or something to deter spinners from completely shutting you down, recover starmie and rain dish tentacruel still don't care.

 

[Cyrrona]

I don’t think we should be advancing “versatility” as the primary pro-ban argument in this particular case. I’ve always thought the bigger problem with Deoxys-D was the fact that its most common sets are so overwhelmingly effective that players are almost forced to run one of the few viable spinners if they want to keep the entry hazards at manageable levels. Deo-D’s speed, bulk, item selection (Mental Herb/Red Card), and access to Taunt all allow it to effectively circumvent other traditional ways of handling hazard-setting pokemon (Taunt of your own, killing it quickly before it can do too much damage, setting up against it, etc.) and also allow Deo-D to consistently force the hazards into play at the battle’s onset. The reliability and (relative) immediacy of this setup essentially leaves the opponent with only two responses: run a spinner/Magic Bounce user or build a team that’s offensive and hazard-resistant enough to secure a win in spite of the field disadvantage.

Quality spinners and Magic Bounce users are few and far between in OU, and I don't believe being pigeonholed into running one of them if you want to dependably avoid the hazard clusterfuck that Deo-D brings makes for a healthy metagame. As such, I'd personally advocate a ban on the grounds of Deo-D's unparalleled spiking efficiency and the disproportionately heavy restrictions that places on teambuilding. (Also, Deo-D doesn’t even really need to outright KO opposing spinners like some people in this thread seem to be implying...a well-built Deo-D team should be applying enough offensive pressure to strip opponents of potential spinning time anyway. Deo-D's ability to run more specialized sets and steamroll over certain spinners for teams in need of particular lures is, however, a frustrating perk.)

PS: Shout-out to the council for implementing a ladder that removes the suspects this time around.
PPS: Something related to Tenacious D would be an excellent back-up thread title.

 

[Soul Fly]

that would probably only be a good set against teams that lack a spinner, a taunt user, or basically any setup 'mon, and those types of teams are extremely rare. deoxys-d without taunt, magic coat, seismic toss, thunder wave, or any niche offensive move is basically the worst of both worlds. unlike the niche offensive sets, you're now fodder for rapid spin, and unlike the taunt/magic coat sets, you are now taunt bait and setup bait. really not worth using imo.

This is really niche, but now this is really more like it.

Plus unless it's dedicated HO lead it wouldn't even need Light Clay. It'd just need the screens to last long enough to Spam multiple layers (and hopefully provide a set sweeper 1 or 2 turns). This way he can run his plethora of items to improve versatility.

I would use it something like this.

1. See if it is volcarona/hydreigon OR tyranitar/Scizor threatening to KO you.
2. Set Up Appropriate Screen
3. Rocks/Spikes

But then It can become setup fodder with misprediction. I could choose it to run with Red Card Though, but then I'm being a taunt bait... hmmm.

But this WILL definitely surprise anyone prepared for a standard zero offense set(s)....

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

This is really niche, but now this is really more like it.

Plus unless it's dedicated HO lead it wouldn't even need Light Clay. It'd just need the screens to last long enough to Spam multiple layers (and hopefully provide a set sweeper 1 or 2 turns). This way he can run his plethora of items to improve versatility.

I would use it something like this.

1. See if it is volcarona/hydreigon OR tyranitar/Scizor threatening to KO you.
2. Set Up Appropriate Screen
3. Rocks/Spikes

But then It can become setup fodder with misprediction. I could choose it to run with Red Card Though, but then I'm being a taunt bait... hmmm.

But this WILL definitely surprise anyone prepared for a standard zero offense set(s)....

I think this is easily the best way to setup hazards. The point of setupping screens is more for Deoxys-D than for teamates. Behind the screens it can indeed setup rocks+2 spikes or even 3. You could run any item, instead of light clay.

 

[Deglas]

I see a lot of people saying that because other Pokemon can run gimmick moves to beat their counters, Deo-D's ability to beat its counters with certain moves or items does not affect its brokeness. The thing is that Deo-D does not lose utility by running "gimmick" moves or items to beat counters. The moves and items it runs to beat counters are effectively another form of team support. They support the team by taking out spinners/etc. that the rest of the team can't handle. These moves and items are not gimmicks, they are simply tailored to fit the rest of the team. Some of the moves and items are used more often, because they beat a wider variety of counters. The ones used less are still just as viable, they just fit best on more specific teams.

 

[G-Von]

g-von, spikes + dual screens + taunt/magic coat could potentially be plausible, but if we assume that the item is going to be light clay, then you're still looking at a hazard setter that can do absolutely nothing to rapid spinners. and even if you're running rocky helmet or something to deter spinners from completely shutting you down, recover starmie and rain dish tentacruel still don't care.

Alakazam wouldn't be a bad partner for DS Deo-D since it one shots both RD tenta and defensive Starmie aftr rocks. Maybe a spinblocker like Jellicent could work as a good teammate against those two, too.

 

[Lavos]

Alakazam wouldn't be a bad partner for DS Deo-D since it one shots both RD tenta and defensive Starmie aftr rocks. Maybe a spinblocker like Jellicent could work as a good teammate against those two, too.

yeah but regardless of whether or not zam is a good partner to deo-d, starmie/tenta/whatever still switches in on rocks and spins as zam comes in so all you get is a switch advantage out of that and the opposition probably has a solid zam answer anyways. plus deo-d and zam share the same typing so it just compounds your weakness to bug, ghost, and dark-type attacks. as for jellicent being a good deo-d partner, i guess so (again, still compounding the weakness to dark and ghost), but jellicent is definitely more of a defensively oriented 'mon whereas deo-d is found on hyper offense 95% of the time, so all jellicent's really going to do for you if your opponent lacks a spinner is sit around and be fodder, since it's a real momentum killer, and momentum is what ho's all about.

 

[Soul Fly]

yeah but regardless of whether or not zam is a good partner to deo-d, starmie/tenta/whatever still switches in on rocks and spins as zam comes in so all you get is a switch advantage out of that and the opposition probably has a solid zam answer anyways. plus deo-d and zam share the same typing so it just compounds your weakness to bug, ghost, and dark-type attacks. as for jellicent being a good deo-d partner, i guess so (again, still compounding the weakness to dark and ghost), but jellicent is definitely more of a defensively oriented 'mon whereas deo-d is found on hyper offense 95% of the time, so all jellicent's really going to do for you if your opponent lacks a spinner is sit around and be fodder, since it's a real momentum killer, and momentum is what ho's all about.

Agreed, but I don't get it why we should treat Deo-D as some poster child for HO. I mean I have seen it on plenty of other kinds of teams. It's especially popular on hazard shuffle teams too, so it very easily slips into that role too. Stall appreciates them hazards very much too you know?

 

[Meru]

Deo-D sucks on stall. For the teamslot it takes, it offers jack for resistances and beats nothing except like CM Reuniclus, which is on the verge of UU. Stall prefers Skarmory, Ferrothorn, or even Forretress for spiking duties.

 

[Lavos]

Agreed, but I don't get it why we should treat Deo-D as some poster child for HO. I mean I have seen it on plenty of other kinds of teams. It's especially popular on hazard shuffle teams too, so it very easily slips into that role too. Stall appreciates them hazards very much too you know?

we should treat deo-d as the poster child for ho because it is the poster child for ho...i don't understand what you're trying to say here, deo-d is the single best hazard setter in ou and there's a reason that when i sit down to build a hyper offensive team the first mon i consider is deo-d. yes, it is seen on other types of teams, but it is certainly most prevalent on hyper offense. and if you accept that deo-d is viable on playstyles other than ho, it's just another point for it being uber.

 

[Soul Fly]

we should treat deo-d as the poster child for ho because it is the poster child for ho...i don't understand what you're trying to say here,

I'm just Saying that, people should always keep in mind the sheer versatility it brings to the table, and not just the generic hazard spammer in HO.

deo-d is the single best hazard setter in ou and there's a reason that when i sit down to build a hyper offensive team the first mon i consider is deo-d. yes, it is seen on other types of teams, but it is certainly most prevalent on hyper offense. and if you accept that deo-d is viable on playstyles other than ho, it's just another point for it being uber.

I AM pro Deo-D ban, as of now. But I believe every aspect of his abilities should be considered and evaluated subjectively.

EDIT...

Deo-D sucks on stall. For the teamslot it takes, it offers jack for resistances and beats nothing except like CM Reuniclus, which is on the verge of UU. Stall prefers Skarmory, Ferrothorn, or even Forretress for spiking duties.

I would quite gladly give up a teamslot if I was guaranteed multiple layers of hazards.As we have already seen his sheer ridiculous bulk makes weaknesses a secondary issue as we have already seen like only a handful of mons in the metagame can actually OHKO it off the bat. I would be very happy to not exclusively rely on W-o-W and Toxic to get the wearing down job done.

But then I'm not very seasoned at stall (not my style),and I haven't extensively used that playstyle so I can't speak very much from that perspective beyond this. This is a strictly personal opinion.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

I'm just Saying that, people should always keep in mind the sheer versatility it brings to the table, and not just the generic hazard spammer in HO.



I AM pro Deo-D ban, as of now. But I believe every aspect of his abilities should be considered and evaluated subjectively.

But being the generic hazard spammer is what makes him so good. Being able to beat its counters with random gems is just a bonus.

 

[Soul Fly]

But being the generic hazard spammer is what makes him so good. Being able to beat its counters with random gems is just a bonus.

If you notice carefully I never denied that. That's what makes his usage so brainless, and that's why he's ban-worthy IMHO. I'm just trying to add a new perspective to this.

 

[Pombo]

I would quite gladly give up a teamslot if I was guaranteed multiple layers of hazards.As we have already seen his sheer ridiculous bulk makes weaknesses a secondary issue as we have already seen like only a handful of mons in the metagame can actually OHKO it off the bat. I would be very happy to not exclusively rely on W-o-W and Toxic to get the wearing down job done.

In a metagame where the number of offensive threats is much higher than defensive ones, and where (good) stall teams are becoming more and more rare, i dont think you can give up a slot (and therefore key resistances, or "gap filling" if you prefer) just for a pokemon to set lots of hazards. Not while you can distribute this pokemon role over your team to numerous other stall pokemon (like Skarm, Bliss, Chansey, Ferro, Forry, Jirachi, etc.).

Deo-D still broken, IMO. But i dont think it is viable on stall. Show me a good stall team with Deo-D. I dare you.

 

[Lavos]

Deo-D still broken, IMO. But i dont think it is viable on stall. Show me a good stall team with Deo-D. I dare you.

ojama (i think it was ojama) had a good rain stall with deo-d back in early bw2, it was like poli deo-d sab glisc ferro tenta or something? i forget it's been too long but it was really successful on ladder and i used it to win some bw2 smogon tour games as well. point is, deo-d isn't entirely useless outside of hyper offense, but it's certainly the simplest playstyle for it to function in.

 

[Tassa]

Deo-D + Calm Mind stall Sableye ? [Taunt, Calm Mind, WoW, Recover]
Apart from fire type (that you can cover with your teammates), if Sableye got one/two CM and is not unlucky on WoW, it seems able to decimate teams.
He spinblocks and your opponent is going to do numerous switch in order to beat Sableye, switch which will fast decrease their life if you have SR + Spikes up. Even if Sableye don't beat everything by itself, when it dies you can attempt an easy sweep against an heavily weakened team.