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OU The OU Viability Ranking thread
- Thread starter PK Gaming
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Supporting lucario for A-tier, i've used it extensively in the past months and it always do its job. Unlike people thinks, lucario finds a lot of opportunity to setup a sword dance, its steel typing helps it in this sense, giving it some very usefull resistances to steel attacks, dragon, bug, rock, dark, normal. Not to mention that lucario also functions as both a revenge killer and sweeper, since extreme speed does almost 50% to any offensive pokemon that doesnt resists extremespeed.
By the way, i dont know if its just me but it seems that some of the D tier pokemon like Chandelure, Kabutops, Quagsire, are better than some of the C-tier (like, really durant in C-tier? Crobat?)
So im gonna ask what do you think about those D-tier pokemon, to me they are worth C-tier, but ill explain my reasons later, im asking to you first.
Ps. its a shame feraligatr is not in any list at all :( C-tier at least.
By the way, i dont know if its just me but it seems that some of the D tier pokemon like Chandelure, Kabutops, Quagsire, are better than some of the C-tier (like, really durant in C-tier? Crobat?)
So im gonna ask what do you think about those D-tier pokemon, to me they are worth C-tier, but ill explain my reasons later, im asking to you first.
Ps. its a shame feraligatr is not in any list at all :( C-tier at least.
Hitmontop is physically bulky with intimidate, isn't pursuit weak and donphan can't beat sheer force landorus because of its low special defense. Hitmontop has great mixed bulk in OU, something other rapid spinners (bar tentacruel) don't have. Hitmontop also gets perfect coverage with 2 moves, while donphan has to rely on EQ and its weak ice shard to do anything ofensively.
How does Donphan beat SF landorus 1 on 1?
252+ Atk Donphan Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 200-236 (62.69 - 73.98%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Yeah, it'll beat Landrous 1 on 1 with maximum investment and a choice band.
btw
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Donphan: 344-407 (89.58 - 105.98%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
Donphan also can't switch into Terrakion.
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Donphan: 186-219 (48.43 - 57.03%) -- 38.67% chance to 2HKO
So yeah both of your claims are wrong.
I'm not saying that Donphan isn't defensive. Yeah, he's not taking a lot from +0 Salamence's Outrage, but either way, he can't recover like Hippowdon can, and that makes him dead weight. And no, Sheer Force Landorus wins if Sturdy is broken (why would Donphan even be out unless hazards are up in the first place?), and if Sturdy isn't broken, why is Landorus staying in anyway? But fine, lets say neither side has any hazards. It goes like this:
Turn 1: Donphan uses Ice Shard, does (44.04 - 52.38%)
Landorus uses Earth Power, does (89.58 - 105.98%)
Turn 2: Donphan uses Ice Shard, OOPS missed the 17% chance you have to 2HKO
Landorus KO's with Earth Power
So even without hazards, you only have a 17% chance of beating Landorus 1v1. To put that in perspective, that's less of a chance than Thundurus-t has of beating Keldeo 1v1 (Hydro Pump can miss 20% of the time) Isn't it kind of embarrassing when a Pokémon loses most of the time against an opponent which is x4 weak to its priority move? Even if you do win, your Rapid Spinner is down to about 1 HP, an you're probably going to be at a loss if your sun team has no spinner.
Breloom is a classic example of how being very specialised in a role is generally better then those jack-of-all-trades or all-rounders. He has a precise movepool that tailors most of his needs, has great power and excellent abilities that he can utilise well. Let's take a look at how this 460 base stat total pokemon is recognized as one of the most fearsome threats today.
First, its movepool. Of course there's its trademark Spore which instantly neuters a threat, earning its notorious reputation of how hard it is to switch into. Of course if this is all Breloom has, it wouldn't be all that special from the other bulkier Spore users. However, it also has Swords Dance, Bullet Seed, Mach Punch, Low Sweep, Stone Edge, Substitute, Focus Punch, Leech Seed, Seed Bomb....good god, I can't think of many things willing to switch in on the first five moves, much less the rest. Its movepool looks limited but it's all it really needs...well aside from a speed boosting move, but I can bet we'll all agree how something like Agility Breloom can shake up the metagame.
Next, Breloom's typing. This is kinda where it gets awkward. Breloom's defensive typing is fantastic, but frankly doesn't have the bulk to make full use of it, even if running a defensively inclined set. Its power is massive, but its STAB combo is resisted by so many pokemon. However, it is this very same power that makes even resists think twice about switching in. This is not factoring in Stone Edge, which easily blows unsuspecting Breloom checks clean off the field. Even the resisted moves themselves can really cripple Breloom's switch-ins: the likes of Gengar or Lati@s really don't want to take more than 3 hits of Technician Bullet Seed, while most switch-ins can lose their speed advantage over Breloom due to Low Sweep and become susceptible to Spore or a coverage move. On the other hand, some of these checks can succumb to SubPunch Breloom, which brings me to...
...Breloom's abilities. Now we know the true power of Technician by now: it allows Breloom to hit so phenomenally hard it isn't even funny, and grants it revenge-killing prowess rivaling Scizor, with more resistant opponents but also more vulnerable targets. And then there's Poison Heal, which grant Breloom double the Leftovers recovery and status immunity, making him a safe switch-in to the Scalds of Bulky Waters. This is also where his precise movepool kicks in: Leech Seed and Focus Punch combo extremely well with Substitute which is healed quickly by Poison Heal and allows him to pull off a mean SubSeed set, SubPunch set, or both *shudders*. The fact that most Grass types (even Venusaur) are wrecked by a STAB Focus Punch off base 130 Attack only helps Breloom's cause.
The cementing factor of this is that Breloom hardly has access to most of these great qualities when it was first introduced in Gen III, but was already established as an incredible force with Spore and Focus Punch alone (and that's without physical Grass STAB at the time!). So no, Breloom was never shit, it just got better and better with each generation and became increasingly harder to stop. Really, it's only flaws are its base stats aside from Attack and 4 moveslot syndrome, and that is pretty A-Rank to me. Breloom's not even as straightforward as he looks, and that makes him that much harder to stop.
First, its movepool. Of course there's its trademark Spore which instantly neuters a threat, earning its notorious reputation of how hard it is to switch into. Of course if this is all Breloom has, it wouldn't be all that special from the other bulkier Spore users. However, it also has Swords Dance, Bullet Seed, Mach Punch, Low Sweep, Stone Edge, Substitute, Focus Punch, Leech Seed, Seed Bomb....good god, I can't think of many things willing to switch in on the first five moves, much less the rest. Its movepool looks limited but it's all it really needs...well aside from a speed boosting move, but I can bet we'll all agree how something like Agility Breloom can shake up the metagame.
Next, Breloom's typing. This is kinda where it gets awkward. Breloom's defensive typing is fantastic, but frankly doesn't have the bulk to make full use of it, even if running a defensively inclined set. Its power is massive, but its STAB combo is resisted by so many pokemon. However, it is this very same power that makes even resists think twice about switching in. This is not factoring in Stone Edge, which easily blows unsuspecting Breloom checks clean off the field. Even the resisted moves themselves can really cripple Breloom's switch-ins: the likes of Gengar or Lati@s really don't want to take more than 3 hits of Technician Bullet Seed, while most switch-ins can lose their speed advantage over Breloom due to Low Sweep and become susceptible to Spore or a coverage move. On the other hand, some of these checks can succumb to SubPunch Breloom, which brings me to...
...Breloom's abilities. Now we know the true power of Technician by now: it allows Breloom to hit so phenomenally hard it isn't even funny, and grants it revenge-killing prowess rivaling Scizor, with more resistant opponents but also more vulnerable targets. And then there's Poison Heal, which grant Breloom double the Leftovers recovery and status immunity, making him a safe switch-in to the Scalds of Bulky Waters. This is also where his precise movepool kicks in: Leech Seed and Focus Punch combo extremely well with Substitute which is healed quickly by Poison Heal and allows him to pull off a mean SubSeed set, SubPunch set, or both *shudders*. The fact that most Grass types (even Venusaur) are wrecked by a STAB Focus Punch off base 130 Attack only helps Breloom's cause.
The cementing factor of this is that Breloom hardly has access to most of these great qualities when it was first introduced in Gen III, but was already established as an incredible force with Spore and Focus Punch alone (and that's without physical Grass STAB at the time!). So no, Breloom was never shit, it just got better and better with each generation and became increasingly harder to stop. Really, it's only flaws are its base stats aside from Attack and 4 moveslot syndrome, and that is pretty A-Rank to me. Breloom's not even as straightforward as he looks, and that makes him that much harder to stop.
Donphan may be better than Hitmontop, but he is certainly not good. His bulk is okay and nothing more, and his typing adds little to no resistances and compounds the Water-type weakness that sun teams already have issues dealing with. He also has to deal with a lack of any sort of recovery, which means that he can't switch in as often as you would like to hope.
252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs 252 HP/252 Def Donphan (+Def) : 32.29% - 38.28% (3-4 hits to KO)
And this is a Jolly Scarfed Terrakion, one of the most common physical attackers in OU, and already an issue for sun teams to deal with, and Donphan can only check him once. If he switches in again, he risks being 2HKO'd. And don't even dream about switching in on Special Attackers, who will tear Donphan to shreds without a single worry.
Donphan is the worst Rapid Spinner in OU (if we can put aside the Hitmontop nonsense for a bit), and he should never rise above D-Rank, and if people really knew what they were doing in OU, he wouldn't even be in the tier. Tentacruel is a better spinner, Starmie is a better spinner, and if you're using a sun team, Forretress is a better spinner.
I would like to think that Sableye is more of a C rank than a B rank. I know that its Prankster ability and it's zero weaknesses is really appealing, but its stats and move pool just don't seem to cut it for me.
It's 50/75/65 means that it's not about to take more than one hit on any relatively powerful move, especially in OU. Even if it was holding a Focus Sash, which I've never seen, it couldn't do much to protect itself in the next coming turn. It doesn't have the debilitating status effecting moves to do it.
Without paralyzing or sleep inducing moves, Sableye leaves itself wide open to a counter attack that same turn. It only catches a break when it Taunts correctly or Will-O-Wisps a physical attacker (which is only 75%). Any special attacker with average power or physical attacker with above average power can take out Sableye without batting an eyelash.
I just don't think it belongs in the B rank with the likes of Jellicent, Espeon, and Bronzong.
It's 50/75/65 means that it's not about to take more than one hit on any relatively powerful move, especially in OU. Even if it was holding a Focus Sash, which I've never seen, it couldn't do much to protect itself in the next coming turn. It doesn't have the debilitating status effecting moves to do it.
Without paralyzing or sleep inducing moves, Sableye leaves itself wide open to a counter attack that same turn. It only catches a break when it Taunts correctly or Will-O-Wisps a physical attacker (which is only 75%). Any special attacker with average power or physical attacker with above average power can take out Sableye without batting an eyelash.
I just don't think it belongs in the B rank with the likes of Jellicent, Espeon, and Bronzong.
petitioning that jellicent be moved up to a-rank
the guy who posted above me really got me thinking about this. why is such an integral pokemon to certain playstyles in the same rank as pokemon like espeon, sableye, and ditto that see little to no competitive usage? jellicent is the best spinblocker in the game right now since it's able to defeat every single spinner (sans toxic tenta, who beats gar + sab too) and it's also got enough bulk, status, and access to taunt + reliable recovery to make it worth using outside the sole role of a spinblocker. not to mention jellicent's absolutely key to a successful bw2 sand stall team, as the specially defensive version is a hard wall to any keldeo variant lacking a specs hp ghost, and it also checks sheer force landorus, life orb tank latias, and other common special-attacking sights quite nicely. overall jellicent is simply a fantastic utility pokemon to have on any defensively oriented team. clearly deserving of a-rank imo
the guy who posted above me really got me thinking about this. why is such an integral pokemon to certain playstyles in the same rank as pokemon like espeon, sableye, and ditto that see little to no competitive usage? jellicent is the best spinblocker in the game right now since it's able to defeat every single spinner (sans toxic tenta, who beats gar + sab too) and it's also got enough bulk, status, and access to taunt + reliable recovery to make it worth using outside the sole role of a spinblocker. not to mention jellicent's absolutely key to a successful bw2 sand stall team, as the specially defensive version is a hard wall to any keldeo variant lacking a specs hp ghost, and it also checks sheer force landorus, life orb tank latias, and other common special-attacking sights quite nicely. overall jellicent is simply a fantastic utility pokemon to have on any defensively oriented team. clearly deserving of a-rank imo
I'm in full support of moving Jellicent up to A-Rank. From my personal experience with Jellicent, I've found that it's bulk and typing make it an incredibly difficult pokemon to break through. It shrugs off most neutral attacks with ease and can even tank weaker super-effective attacks pretty well too. (Rotom-W's Volt Switch for example) I've literally had matches where the opponent couldn't break through Jellicent and ended up forfeiting. It's that good. And that's not even going into it's uses as a spinblocker and a Bulky Ghost.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3473637&page=74
Amoonguss for B-rank, there it shall stay!
Amoonguss for B-rank, there it shall stay!
I agree with moving jellicent up to A-rank. It is an amazing spin blocker and walls threats like keldeo.
Now, Amoongus is B-Rank IMO. NP thunduros-t isn't that big of a threat because of clear smog. Regenerator is a pretty reliable recovery in my book and amoongus has synthesis to recover off the damage. Specs keldeo only has a 5% chance to 2HKO ammongus not to mention Giga drain can recover most of the damage caused by hydro pump. While sun can give amoongus trouble, it also allows synthesis to recover 66% of amoongus's health back. It is only setup bait to substitute attackers that resist giga drain, or substitute users bulkier than 4/0 garchomp. I feel that amoongus should stay in B-Rank.
EDIT: GatoDelFuego Beat me to this arguement.
Now, Amoongus is B-Rank IMO. NP thunduros-t isn't that big of a threat because of clear smog. Regenerator is a pretty reliable recovery in my book and amoongus has synthesis to recover off the damage. Specs keldeo only has a 5% chance to 2HKO ammongus not to mention Giga drain can recover most of the damage caused by hydro pump. While sun can give amoongus trouble, it also allows synthesis to recover 66% of amoongus's health back. It is only setup bait to substitute attackers that resist giga drain, or substitute users bulkier than 4/0 garchomp. I feel that amoongus should stay in B-Rank.
EDIT: GatoDelFuego Beat me to this arguement.
I don't have an opinion on the big ass mushroom but I support Lavos 100% with Jellicent getting moved up to A-rank. It really is the best spinblocker who isn't banned; every time i brought it in on a spinner they couldn't do anything at all. Starmie can T-bolt but Jellicent can Shadow Ball or Giga Drain back and nab that KO.
That's all well and good, except that Regenerator and Spore on their own are enough to make this thing B Rank. All of the situations you just mentioned are easily avoided by simply switching out. Nasty Plot Thundurus-T is easily revenged, so all you have to do is Clear Smog on turn 1 and then switch into Lati@s and go for the kill as the opponent either goes for Nasty Plot, a weakened HP Ice, or possibly Thunderbolt predicting the switch into a water type. Your Amoongus makes it out fine and you killed a dangerous sweeper. Same thing goes for Politoed. You lose half your health, but you can switch out and regain 33% while simultaneously gaining momentum because your opponent locked him or herself into the easily exploitable Ice Beam. The only thing that you have me on is Specs Keldeo in the rain's Hydro Pump, which can 2HKO, and it's unlikely you have an Amoongus AND a water absorber on the same team (unless it's stall). Other than that, forcing yourself into a locked situation like that allows the Amoongus trainer to gain momentum at relatively no cost thanks to Regenerator. Plus, all of these situations assume something's already been Spored, which means Amoongus has already effectively taken out at least one Pokemon. Pretty damn good if you ask me. B tier, definitely.
Also, yeah Jellicent for A tier, without a doubt. The bet spinblocker and a great utility Pokemon.
Do you realise that you're talking about +2 Thundurus-T ?
Please, don't bother post calcs involving him at this point, it's meaningless because nothing in the tier can tank it. Nothing is "supposed to beat" it in a Stall team. Do you know how much Blissey takes from +2 Focus Blast ? Post your smart calc, please, and then tell me how Blissey has a poor special bulk.
If you wanted to prove that Amoonguess loses to +2 LO Thundurus. Congratulation, you did prove it. Was that relevant in the current discussion ? I highly doubt it.
And I will look like some crazy Amoongus fan, but it works for every pokemon, try to not use the "Specs HPump Keldeo under Rain" or "+2 LO Thundurus" calcs, it is not helping the good evaluation of each pokemon in the tier.
Please, don't bother post calcs involving him at this point, it's meaningless because nothing in the tier can tank it. Nothing is "supposed to beat" it in a Stall team. Do you know how much Blissey takes from +2 Focus Blast ? Post your smart calc, please, and then tell me how Blissey has a poor special bulk.
If you wanted to prove that Amoonguess loses to +2 LO Thundurus. Congratulation, you did prove it. Was that relevant in the current discussion ? I highly doubt it.
And I will look like some crazy Amoongus fan, but it works for every pokemon, try to not use the "Specs HPump Keldeo under Rain" or "+2 LO Thundurus" calcs, it is not helping the good evaluation of each pokemon in the tier.
I too agree with jellicent being A rank. The reason that pushes it over for me is that it's an amazing spinblocker and wall, but also a stall breaker with taunt. Chansey = dead
What are you talking about? Did anyone ever say that Amoongus can beat NP Thundurus-T, Specs Politoed, and Specs Keldeo 1v1 in their absolutely optimal conditions? Ferrothorn loses to all of those guys too, and he's supposed to be a rain counter. Same with Rotom-W and Tentacruel, and these guys are supposed to be THE rain counters. But the best thing about Amoongus is that it doesn't care if you can 2HKO it. I don't know why you're discounting Amoongus's ability to scout what moves your opponent is going to use and then use that to gain momentum. That's the power of Regenerator. It's exactly what made Tornadus-T broken, and it makes Amoongus damn good at absorbing blows and getting free heath back if the situation isn't ideal for it. And then there's Spore, which is, as I already said, basically a free KO. So unless something has already been put to sleep, your +2 Thundurus-T isn't going to want to stay in on Amoongus. I'm not saying Amoongus is the best wall in the history of Pokémon. But I would say that the things it has going for it (good bulk, Regenerator, Spore, Clear Smog, etc) are definitely enough to make it B Tier.
I dont get it. Why is Ninetales in a higher rank than abomasnow and lower than politoed? If we are judging the pokemons based on their viabilities alone then they should all be in the same boat. Crappy stuff that are only used cause of weather abilities.
It's because of the value of the support that the Pokémon bring, combined with the Pokémon themselves. Ninetales' support is just as dangerous, arguably even more dangerous than rain, but the fact that Ninetales is weak to Stealth Rock, frail, and vulnerable to most weather inducers, means that it is A-Rank, at best, and this is only because the support it brings to your team is fantastic.
But Abomasnow is not that valuable. Hail is much more vulnerable than sun and lacks the same abusers. Ice is an even more horrible defensive typing than Fire. Hail teams have serious defensive synergy problems. For this reason, hail is inferior to other weathers, and thus, Abomasnow is C-Rank.
But Abomasnow is not that valuable. Hail is much more vulnerable than sun and lacks the same abusers. Ice is an even more horrible defensive typing than Fire. Hail teams have serious defensive synergy problems. For this reason, hail is inferior to other weathers, and thus, Abomasnow is C-Rank.
Icecream, I think you're missing the point. Thundurus-T and Keldeo both have massive firepower at their disposal. Nothing wants to switch into them.
NOTHING.
That's where the problem lies; you're claiming Amoonguss to be awful because it can't "reliably" stand up to these threats. Well, fact is, nothing really can. That's why the argument has been called irrelevant, because basically nothing can stand up to these things at their best in the first place, and saying something is bad because of that is kind of, well, redundant.
NOTHING.
That's where the problem lies; you're claiming Amoonguss to be awful because it can't "reliably" stand up to these threats. Well, fact is, nothing really can. That's why the argument has been called irrelevant, because basically nothing can stand up to these things at their best in the first place, and saying something is bad because of that is kind of, well, redundant.
No, I think it's all right. And I think your over exaggerating that the only Rain threat it beats is Rotom-W. And, as many people have said before me, you're really underestimating the power of Spore and regenerator. And again, there aren't many pokemon that can counter Thundurus-T in the first place. You mentioned Gastrodon (who's actually not that good outside of countering rain). Can you name another? Keldeo is a bit easier to counter though, I will give it that.
My gawd, I saw Jolteon in the C rank, and I just said, NO. Jolteon needs to be moved to at the minimum A rank. It outspeeds all of the OU Metagame, and hits tremendously hard. In rain, it has a 100% accurate THUNDER, coming off of a respectable Special Attack stat. It also has HP Ice, so it can hit Thundurus=T, Gliscor, and Dragons. Signal Beam is also a useful move as it lets Celebi be a smaller nuisance. All in all, Jolteon needs to be moved up.
You're using wildly specific instances (NP Thundurus-T is rare because it's generally too frail to get to +2 and has enough immediate power anyway) to try to discredit Amoonguss, when in reality it is a nice check/counter to a lot of things. You're really, really underestimating regenerator and it's viability as a defensive scout, and Spore is just icing on the cake.
The biggest reason it's C-Rank is because it is outclassed by Thundurus-T for the most part thanks to the latter's high Special Attack and decent movepool with not one but two boosting moves. Jolteon's only saving grace is its great speed, but its subpar Special Attack, barren movepool, and lack of (legitimate) boosting moves means that he is mostly eclipsed by Thundurus-T and, by definition, should stay in C-Rank
And in terms of this whole argument about Amoonguss apparently being bad
1. Gastrodon doesn't hard counter Thundy anyways because it's not rare for Thundurus-T to run Grass Knot
2. Amoonguss is in B-Rank. That doesn't mean he needs to wall everything, he just needs to have a solid niche to warrant use over Celebi. If anything you're just trying to come up with situations that Amoonguss can't handle. Yes, Amoonguss can't beat these Pokemon. But he has Spore and Regenerator, which are really helpful by the way, and a different defensive typing that allows him to more reliably check things Celebi could only dream of, like Scizor, Tyranitar, and Landorus (Celebi gets mauled by U-Turn).
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