Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

[GatoDelFuego]

Ok, lavos' post has swung me. Just because terrakion is pretty much prepared for by everyone, it still doesn't change the fact that it remains one of the deadliest do you not prepare for it. I can see if a team was not prepared for Terrakion it would tear it apart far easier than if the opponent was unprepared for Dragonite or Kyurem-B.

Wizarus also makes a good point in junction with this; with only two stab moves to decimate everything it provides a lower "opportunity cost" of sweeping a team unprepared.

I'm for Terrakion in S-rank still then.

 

[Ricky Horror]

Skarmory should be dropped off to Class B.

Justification

Reliably Skarmory cannot tank any of the S rank Pokemon, Terrakion can 2 OHKO after Stealth Rocks with a Choice Band or Swords dance boost. Yea it can whirlwind but this meta's consistent pressure doesn't allow it many times to roost, Scizor is the only note worthy that is completely countered. Most dragons carry a fire coverage type move and to add to that special based.

 

[Magcargo]

Skarmory should be dropped off to Class B.

Justification

Reliably Skarmory cannot tank any of the S rank Pokemon, Terrakion can 2 OHKO after Stealth Rocks with a Choice Band or Swords dance boost. Yea it can whirlwind but this meta's consistent pressure doesn't allow it many times to roost, Scizor is the only note worthy that is completely countered. Most dragons carry a fire coverage type move and to add to that special based.

Why do you have a houndoom sprite when your talking about skarmory.

Anyway, I disagree. Skarmory is currently the best hyper offensive lead since it has taunt, both spikes and SR and the highest speed of all custap leads. Defensive skarmory can also counter breloom, physical terrakion, Dragons locked into outrage, ferrothorn ( taunt shuts it down), garchomp and some venusaur. Skarmory's ability to pave the way for sweepers with its custap set and ability to check certain dangerous threats lacking a choice band easily make it A-Rank.

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

The only defensive checks I can think of on the top of my head to it in OU are Hippowdon, Gliscor, and Landorus-T, and if it has the appropriate item they go down by +2 Terra after SR. Honestly, I think people think it's A-material because we've gotten used to dealing with it, but I think it's still a S-Tier threat.

Another good defensive check to Terrakion is Forretress. Against Scarf variants, Forretress is not 2HKOed by any attack and will OHKO back with Gyro Ball. Against Double Dance variants, it is not OHKOed by any attack; if Terrakion used Rock Polish, Gyro Ball will OHKO. If Terrakion used Swords Dance, Forretress will still survive even +2 Life Orb Close Combat and will attack back with Gyro Ball. Although Terrakion will not be OHKOed, it will be at so low health that it will be unable to take out more than one or two other Pokémon. It will also be easily revenge killed by any faster Pokémon. Against SubSalac variants, Forretress can simply break all Terrakion's substitutes with Gyro Ball, survive any boosted attack that Terrakion may use, and OHKO him. Against Focus Sash lead variants, Forretress will be unable to setup hazards if taunted. However, it can simply 2HKO Terrakion with Gyro Ball, while easily spinning away the Stealth Rock that Terrakion layed. Without a boost, Terrakion will be unable to 2HKO Forretress with any of its attacks.

Also, Terrakion's drawbacks are worse than those of Keldeo. Keldeo resists both Ice Shard and Bullet Punch, and is only neutral to Mach Punch. Terrakion does not resist Ice Shard and is weak to both Bullet Punch and Mach Punch. Neither of Terrakion's STAB moves are boosted by any weather. Keldeo has counters, but many of them are vulnerable to Pursuit. While Keldeo's moves do not offer that great coverage thogether, remember that Keldeo still does a lot of damage to many Pokémon, even if they resist its attacks; this is even more of a truth if Keldeo is under rain. Also, while Terrakion is almost uncounterable, it is very easy to check. Keldeo, on other hand, is easier to counter than Terrakion, but is harder to check. Most teams do not have to pack dedicated ways to defeat Terrakion, but the reverse is true for Keldeo, because its general lack of checks. This means that Keldeo is easier to stop at first, but once its counters and checks have been defeated, it is much harder to stop.

 

[Meru]

Using your Forretress to counter Terrakion sounds like a horrible idea. Terrakion will just take its SR resistance and switch out, which is really easy to do as a lot of things can switch into Forry. Then, Terrakion will just 2HKO you when it comes back in since you're left without reliable recovery.

In a 1v1 scenario, yes, Forry counters Terrakion. But if you're using your Forry to counter Terrakion, you're gonna have a terrible time.

 

[doughboy]

I am going to make an unorthodox suggestion: Tyranitar for S-Rank

I think by and large Tyranitar is an S-Rank Pokemon. At the beginning of BW2 I would be inclined to disagree, but in the state of the current metagame I think Tyranitar deserves its rightful place in S-tier. First of all, the utility of Sandstream has been massively downplayed by most people. Sandstream has been adopted by OU as the way to disrupt Sun and Rain without disrupting too much on your team. Really, Sand teams aren't necessarily teams abusing Sand, but weatherless teams "abusing Tyranitar."

TTar's versatility and excellence in its varied roles only makes it easier to adopt into teams. Let's take a look at its sets for a moment:

Choice Band: Choice Band Tyranitar is the defining set of the metagame right now. That sexy 604 Atk STAB Pursuit enables some of the OU metagames top threats to really shine. Particularly Keldeo and Landorus-I, two S-rank offensive threats, become almost unstoppable monsters after Ttar has successfully trapped their respective checks. Choice Band Tyranitar Pursuit is so powerful it can be used to trap stuff that is not weak to Dark attacks like unsuspecting Choiced Politoed's and (some) Ninetales (eliminating the opponent's weather from the match). IMO it is the best trapper in the OU tier right now (that's right Gothitelle can suck it, I hate that POS).

Choice Band Tyranitar is not limited to trapping though. Stone Edge can act as a powerful wall-breaking tool. CB Tyranitar also retain enough bulk to check special threats, combining the best of its offense and defense. Really CB Tyranitar is the best way to play Tyranitar, a weather inducer. Get in, cause the most amount of damage as possible in a very small period of time, get out and be safe to come out to reset weather latter.

Specially Defensive/Support: SpD Tyranitar is a critical stopping block to the majority of the tier's special attackers. In one Pokemon you can carry weather support, SR, and trapping support. With so much crucial support wrapped up into one role, it is hard sometimes to deny SpD Tyranitar on more balanced "weatherless" teams. What is cool about SpD Tyranitar is that you have the massive special bulk on par with Snorlax, but without extremely crappy offensive presence. Ttar's movepool is so expansive you can mix and match to tailor your teams needs really easily, stuff like Twave and Roar that isn't slashed on the main set is still very viable.

Lead: The newest "main" TTar set. One of the most disrupting SR leads one can face and one of the most powerful outside of Terrakion and Garchomp. Not only can it mess up your weather first tier, but its varied coverage means you have no idea what is safe to stop it. Both physical and all special variants have been played to a degree of success. If you don't tred carefully, you can lose a Pokemon to an unexpected coverage move.

tl;dr

TTar S-rank

 

[False Sense]

I argued long and hard for Tyranitar for S-rank a few pages back, but the general consensus ended up being that it is too easily beaten with Fighting-types and a few other problems that I do not recall. Thus most people voted for it to stay A-rank, though it is a far superior weather setter to Politoed.

Yeah, I can understand why people would want Tyranitar in S-Rank. I myself am undecided on the matter. I think the key thing that distinguishes it from Politoed is that while it is a superior weather starter compared to Politoed, Politoed has the far superior weather. Sand just isn't really abusable compared to Rain, and that sheer power Rain grants is what puts Politoed in S-Rank. Tyranitar just doesn't match that kind of support weather wise.

But it does do a lot outside of weather support, so I could see it going to S-Rank.

 

[Takion]

Hmmm, I think with all the arguments that have been said. Some changes should have been made.

For example, Mamoswine to A-Rank was a great suggestion

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Using your Forretress to counter Terrakion sounds like a horrible idea. Terrakion will just take its SR resistance and switch out, which is really easy to do as a lot of things can switch into Forry. Then, Terrakion will just 2HKO you when it comes back in since you're left without reliable recovery.

In a 1v1 scenario, yes, Forry counters Terrakion. But if you're using your Forry to counter Terrakion, you're gonna have a terrible time.

Forretress do not counter Terrakion. It just either checks it or prevent it from sweeping. Even then, it has Volt Switch to mantain momentum against the next switch-in. It is not the best check to Terrakion but it is a good one, and has many advantages over other Terrakion checks, namely Rapid Spin.

 

[Lavos]

how is forry a good terrakion check when it only gets to switch in once...terrak cc is a 3hko and forry can't prevent it from coming in over and over on its teammates.

 

[GatoDelFuego]

Isn't that the definition of a check? Something that can beat it once or twice? Granted it has no recovery and terrakion just switches out, so I wouldn't really call it that strong of a check as when terrakion boosts up it can just KO forry with some ease.

 

[HardCore]

I think Toxicroak could be considered A rank, because with LO in Rain it is extremely powerful and must be strategized against in order to take it down due to his 12.5% recovery in rain each turn. Sword Dance, Drain Punch, Ice Punch, Substitute. It pretty much only walled/ countered by Jellicent with Shadowball / Ice Beam, Skarmory, Slowbro, and Disable Gengar. Many popular Pokemon are surprisingly done in by his surfeit of inundating power with reliable recovery. He's a near perfect switch for Politoed, Keldeo, and Tentacruel more than half the time, which makes him that much more valuable to a rain team. Other non Ice Punch-Sub variants are more popular, which may cause people to assume he is without Ice Punch. If I do recall Fighting/Ice is the next best coverage grouping next to Ground Ice!

 

[Magcargo]

I think Toxicroak could be considered A rank, because with LO in Rain it is extremely powerful and must be strategized against in order to take it down due to his 12.5% recovery in rain each turn. Sword Dance, Drain Punch, Ice Punch, Substitute. It pretty much only walled/ countered by Jellicent with Shadowball / Ice Beam, Skarmory, Slowbro, and Disable Gengar. Many popular Pokemon are surprisingly done in by his surfeit of inundating power with reliable recovery. He's a near perfect switch for Politoed, Keldeo, and Tentacruel more than half the time, which makes him that much more valuable to a rain team. Other non Ice Punch-Sub variants are more popular, which may cause people to assume he is without Ice Punch. If I do recall Fighting/Ice is the next best coverage grouping next to Ground Ice!

Toxicroak has quite a few flaws. His low defenses mean that powerful hits will often 2HKO him (even with dry skin). He also has a low base 86 speed, meaning that most threats can outspeed him. he is also powerless outside of the rain and is weak to the common earthquake. Those are 4 major flaws which make toxicroak top B-rank (top, mid and low ranks will be implemented.) He is a good check to many threats, but doesn't deserve A-Rank ATM.

 

[HardCore]

I guess I mean it's all about his role, which is a few free switches and a near gauranteed KO or 2 per game. Even Protect Song Toed gets pounded by him, but I can live with him being near the top of the B ranks. He's kinda like Lucario, who also just needed a little bit more speed or defenses. If you trade some attack for hp you might do a lot better off, so you can take more fighting type moves.

 

[Neliel]

terrakion's stats and movepool haven't changed; rather, the metagame's reaction to it has. personally i feel that terrakion's still s-rank because the definition clearly implies that we're evaluating the pokemon's potential in the ou tier as opposed to how it actually fares in the current metagame. i recognize how big of a threat terrakion can be, but it's not a big threat for me because i recognize said threat and prepare for it, always having a defensive answer (gliscor, lando-t, hippo, etc.) plus one or more offensive answers (scarfers, breloom, scizor, latios, latias, etc.) meaning i hardly ever lose to it. that doesn't mean it isn't still one of the best pokemon in the ou tier potential-wise, it just means that now people are recognizing this threat and overpreparing for it. it's like when we moved tornadus-t to s-rank: despite the fact that every single team had jirachi or rotom-wash, the rank shift still occurred because torn-t's potential is not affected by jirachi usage in terms of rank. i hope that makes sense.

Just wanted to responde to this; its not you that always prepare for it, but its the metagame that its full of great check and counter for it. You dont have to prepare for it, because every team has a way to deal with it without having to change a member or two to not become terrakion weak. How many time did you changed a member in your team because Lando/keldeo were hard to beat? Its not the same with terrakion. Also i would like to say that teorically S-rank is for things that deserves a suspect, and its not the case here.

 

[Pikachuu]

It was ^.^ I was also wondering when the changes would be made, because a lot of new topics were brought up over the last week~ and should probably be looked at. However, I think we should take Tyranitar up for another go at S-rank. ThePillsburyDoughBoy's post lays out every reason why Tyranitar is fully deserving of S-rank despite having the inferior weather, and its usability in the current meta led it to be ranked 3rd in the meta in the 1850 stats. I know usage isn't a determinant, but it supports two S-rank pokemon and gives an advantageous weather to the third, and is such a good pokemon with a million sets that does so much for the team, it should be ranked S.

Agreed, I'm surprised people didn't mention this but since the ban of Genesect and Tornadus-T, Tyranitar shines even more.

 

[alexwolf]

Just wanted to responde to this; its not you that always prepare for it, but its the metagame that its full of great check and counter for it. You dont have to prepare for it, because every team has a way to deal with it without having to change a member or two to not become terrakion weak. How many time did you changed a member in your team because Lando/keldeo were hard to beat? Its not the same with terrakion. Also i would like to say that teorically S-rank is for things that deserves a suspect, and its not the case here.

It's necessary for Pokemon that are suspects to be in S rank, not the other way around. A Pokemon can be in S rank and not be suspect material.

I also could see Terakion dropping to A rank, as Landorus-T and Breloom are everywhere and are very easy to fit on many teams, making Terrakion much more manageable than it used to be.

 

[Revontheus]

It was ^.^ I was also wondering when the changes would be made, because a lot of new topics were brought up over the last week~ and should probably be looked at. However, I think we should take Tyranitar up for another go at S-rank. ThePillsburyDoughBoy's post lays out every reason why Tyranitar is fully deserving of S-rank despite having the inferior weather, and its usability in the current meta led it to be ranked 3rd in the meta in the 1850 stats. I know usage isn't a determinant, but it supports two S-rank pokemon and gives an advantageous weather to the third, and is such a good pokemon with a million sets that does so much for the team, it should be ranked S.

I also agree with Tyranitar up to S rank it can run standard sets like CB and Sp.Def with great success and then it can run some underused/gimmicky sets like DD or a Mixed one.

 

[ChaosLegend]

S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths. If there are suspects, they will come from this rank.

Based on the qualities describing S-Rank, I feel that Tyranitar does NOT properly fit the definition given in the OP. Tyranitar by stats and movepool is the best weather starter Pokemon, but its flaws are just too great for the the support it provides. It is simply too slow for many common threats and weak to common moves throughout the metagame. While sand does provide considerable support to teams I don't see Tyranitar providing "free turns" for a team. Actually, if it is locked into a wrong move, it can lead to a free setup for the opposing team such as Rock Polish Landorus or Terrakion. If Excadrill or even Sand Veil were allowed in OU, then I might consider it being worthy of S-rank, but as it stands right now, no.

 

[Sylveon]

Tyranitar is a great Pokemon and can be very deadly in the hands of a good player. However it's not an easy Pokemon to use. The other S-rank Pokemon like Landorus and Keldeo are much easier to use all you have to do is click a move and you don't have to predict as much they are also pretty fast unlike Tyranitar who more than often has to take a hit first unless scarfed. Tyranitar does do a lot gives answer to other weather while still having a powerhouse on your team, traps a lot of Pokemon, special tank for the team, can even trap things not pursuit weak like specs Tornadus, Jolteon, scarf Thundurus etc. Tyranitar is A+ or low S rank.

 

[Sam]

I do believe Tyranitar deserves S-rank. How often do you see 'pursuit weak' as a negative to many relevant threats? CBTar is very dominant and necessary in this metagame, and is a check/counter to a fair amount of the metagame. Oh yeah, and it's a weather starter as well. I know that sand doesn't have as many abusers compared to rain/sun, but that fact that TTar gets rid of those weathers puts it in a very high level in terms support on tops of it's great offensive capabilities.

 

[Tressed]

I think Tar is where it ought to be right now, in A-Tier. It offers incredible support to the team, no doubt about it, but it suffers from several crippling flaws, mainly low speed and very common weaknesses, which are big problems when put together.
There's just so much that puts Tyranitar into bad situations. Terrakion, Keldeo, Breloom, both Landoruses (Landori?), Politoed, Lucario... All these, and more that I'm too lazy to write down, can either force Tyranitar out or make it pay for staying in. Even Jellicent, who Tyranitar is supposed to beat, can turn TTar from a badass to a wimp by simply Will-o-Wisping on the switch, allowing Jellicent to escape (50-60% from CBTar Pursuit while Jelli switches) and makes Tyranitar, well, not exactly set up bait, but much easier to come into without getting mauled. Tyranitar is A-Rank, because it certainly is good, but it has several glaring flaws that keep it from S-Rank.
Now, if it was base 101 Speed...

 

[HardCore]

I do believe Tyranitar deserves S-rank. How often do you see 'pursuit weak' as a negative to many relevant threats? CBTar is very dominant and necessary in this metagame, and is a check/counter to a fair amount of the metagame. Oh yeah, and it's a weather starter as well. I know that sand doesn't have as many abusers compared to rain/sun, but that fact that TTar gets rid of those weathers puts it in a very high level in terms support on tops of it's great offensive capabilities.

CB Ttar isn't even close to necessary. It's slow and his main function is Pursuiting, which Scarf Tyranitar does just fine. Not only that but Tyranitar can run leftovers and still Pursuit the Latis. Scarf Tyranitar is able to take out more threats with scarf than CB ttar can regardlessly. I think that CB is really good for keeping momentum, but so necessary that it is considered S-Rank absolutely not. Tyranitar has a surfeit of weaknesses including fighting and ground, which are incredibly overused for a good purpose. To me S rank isn't saying the Pokemon is essential at all. It defines Pokemon that are hard to kill, game changers, and pump out an overload of damage through a good move pool. Tyranitar is some of those, but his weakness to Ground and Fighting just make him A rank by themselves.

 

[Ojama]

Volcarona really should be A Rank. It only needs a spinner to work well and to destroy your whole Team. Just look at all Pokemons in S and A Rank: Volcarona wrecks 95% of them. It works in Rain, Sun, Sand and Weatherless so I really don't understand why it is B Rank... Same for Mamoswine, Kyurem, Alakazam and Gyarados. Mamoswine is extremely threatening and only a few Pokemons can handle it. It also has an amazing priority move known as Ice Shard which helps to deal with Dragons + Landorus. Probably one of the best stallbreakers without any doubt.

Kyurem can be A Rank, not sure though but definitely can be A Rank. I find it extremely good in the current Metagame and only needs a spinner to be scary. It can destroy an entire stall team alone and under a substitute, it is really hard to take it down with an offensive team (you are often forced to sac something). Same with Alakazam, although everyone is using Jirachi + Scizor but Alakazam stays Alakazam. Its ability is one of the best of the game, it is extremely fast and has a great Special Attack with a powerful Stab. If you don't bring Jirachi or Scizor in your team I really don't see how you can beat Alakazam and even with one of them it is not an easy thing. SDef Jirachi is the only thing that really beats it because ScarfJirachi can only force it to switch out and it's 2HKO'd by Focus Blast so... Scizor is also 2HKO'd by Focus Blast and you have to make the right choice between BPunch and Pursuit (or U-Turn). Just look at the S Rank: Alakazam destroys them and that's same with the A Rank.

Gyarados is also extremely underrated. After 1 Dragon Dance good luck for stopping it. This thing can sweep an entire Team with little support (a spinner again) and can even set up against 3 Pokemons of the S Rank (Keldeo, Politoed and Landorus). Definitely A Rank.

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

CB Ttar isn't even close to necessary. It's slow and his main function is Pursuiting, which Scarf Tyranitar does just fine. Not only that but Tyranitar can run leftovers and still Pursuit the Latis. Scarf Tyranitar is able to take out more threats with scarf than CB ttar can regardlessly. I think that CB is really good for keeping momentum, but so necessary that it is considered S-Rank absolutely not. Tyranitar has a surfeit of weaknesses including fighting and ground, which are incredibly overused for a good purpose. To me S rank isn't saying the Pokemon is essential at all. It defines Pokemon that are hard to kill, game changers, and pump out an overload of damage through a good move pool. Tyranitar is some of those, but his weakness to Ground and Fighting just make him A rank by themselves.

However, the Scarf set is weak in comparison with the Band set, which can actually threathen other starters like Politoed, and can do things like killing both Lati twins with Pursuit even if they stay in, killing Ninetales with Pursuit if it decides to switch (not possible with Scarf), 2HKOing Skarmory with Stone Edge after Stealth Rock damage, OHKO Breloom with Superpower, and do 74% - 87% to Keldeo with Superpower. Scarf set can never achieve such amazing feats.

This is not to say that Tyranitar is S-Rank. In fact, I doubt that it is effective enough to be S-Rank. Apart from the already aforementioned flaws (low speed; weakness to Water, Grass, Fighting, Steel, Bug, Ground, all very common attacking types), Tyranitar also lacks high-powered moves like Terrakion and Keldeo have (Crunch's 80 base power is underwhelming in comparison with Close Combat's 120 base power) this means that although Tyranitar is technically stronger than Terrakion, Terrakion hits harder in general. Also, Tyranitar is easily walled by Hippowdon if it does not carry Aqua Tail, which is a move that is generally not run because it leaves Tyranitar walled by any Fighting- or Steel-type that resists Water (Ferrothorn, Breloom, Keldeo). In fact, without a Choice Band, most Fighting-types are able to wall Tyranitar; this is a thing that limits the effectiveness of its other sets. Finally, Tyranitar is extremely vulnerable to Dugtrio. This isn't even to say that sandstorm can sometimes backfire if you are planning to support something such as Keldeo or Celebi.