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Counter that Pokemon - Mk IV [FINAL MATCH - Team 1 won!]
- Thread starter ganj4lF
- Start date
Sorry to be blunt but Vaporeon is not a good pick. Not only it's completely shut down by things like Ferrothorn, which happily sets up hazards on it, but also cannot count on ANY surprise value (since Team 2 will know Team 1's sets and vice versa); also, it has a useless ability outside Rain, and picking Rain ourselves brings Kingra to the table for our opponent, which is something we want to avoid unless we have extremely good reasons to do so.
EDIT: lol ok, that's why I should refresh the page before posting...
EDIT: lol ok, that's why I should refresh the page before posting...
I'd actually prefer an Expert Belt because it makes it harder to predict if it's Zoroark. If Zoroark runs Life Orb, the opponent will immediately be on his guard if he sees LO recoil and essentially forced Team 1 to pick something else with Life Orb AND masquerade as it to keep our bluff up, while Expert Belt allows us to masquerade as Choiced Pokemon as well as ther EBelts on the team.
That's completely assuming that there will be enough choiced pokes on the team to bluff as, and because we already know the set he really isn't bluffing anything. Not many Pokemon run Night Daze. Another thing is some players should realize they aren't hitting fast/strong enough if the moves do somehow link between the bluffed Poke and Zoroark. LO all out offensive would be better only because of the nature of how this project works.
I think using Vaporeon wouldn't be a good idea. It would just say "Must use Politoed", which means something like Ferrothorn could be a problem for Team 1. Yeah, SpecsToed does huge damage with Focus Blast, but standard Ferrothorn can take on one FB (does a max of 73.3%) and smash it for lots of damage with Power Whip (81.25%-96.09%). And with FB's bad accuracy, it isn't always going to hit back with another one.
All things said, Ferrothorn is still only a check for SpecsToed (as relying on move accuracy is never good), but can still cause problems for Team 1.
All things said, Ferrothorn is still only a check for SpecsToed (as relying on move accuracy is never good), but can still cause problems for Team 1.
How about that Expert Belted Keldeo guys? Remember this pony is simply amazing at breaking past defensive cores and is so synergistic with so many Pokemon such as Landorus, Breloom, Tyranitar, Heatran and so forth. With Keldeo as a solid base, whatever pick Team 2 may make, we can counterpick with a Pokemon that will not only counter Team#2 but synergize well with Keldeo as well :]
On Alakazam, I feel like he might be one great late-game sweeper, but TBH, why not just go for CM Keldeo who is much better at it anyways? Alakazam is way better at revenge-killing in my opinion. Even RP Landorus is deadlier.
On Alakazam, I feel like he might be one great late-game sweeper, but TBH, why not just go for CM Keldeo who is much better at it anyways? Alakazam is way better at revenge-killing in my opinion. Even RP Landorus is deadlier.
Glad to see you're back again, Ganj4lf. Can't wait to get this project going!
So I've been experimenting with a lot of offensive powerhouse threats, and I've been very impressed with is Sub Dragon Dance Gyarados.
Gyarados @ Leftovers
Adamant / Intimidate
56 HP / 252 Atk / 204 Spe
~Substitute
~Dragon Dance
~Waterfall
~Bounce
With a typing unique to itself and only 4 other pokemon, Gyarados has a lot of useful, key resistances that allows it to set up against some of the most frightening pokemon of the tier, sheerly because of its typing and decent special bulk. For instance, it can tank Hidden Power Ices from Lando-I all day, and OHKO with Waterfall. It doesn't mind Hydro Pumps from Keldeo at all, can set up a DD or two, and KO with Bounce. It walls Volcarona too- with resistances to bug and fire, Volca lacking HP Rock will be in for a tough ride. Intimidate lets it defeat physical attackers too. Choice Band Scizor is easy setup bait, as -1 Bullet Punch only does ~19%, requiring two hits to break the Sub. Breloom would also be in a fix, as its Bullet Punch doesn't do much after Intimidate and it can easily be picked off by Bounce. If you can sub against a Spore, you can even set up. Speaking of Substitute, it lets Gyarados overcome one of its greatest weaknesses- Rotom-W, which often must switch out in order to hit Gyarados for much. Substitute also lets Gyarados set up on weaker attackers such as Amoongus, Slowbro, Heatran, or Jellicent.
After it sets up, it can easily smash its opponents, as Waterfall / Bounce are near perfect coverage. Waterfall is extremely powerful after a few boosts, and can easily OHKO most of the tier, while Bounce handles Grass types and Dragon types. It can eliminate many top threats this way- the musketeers are both OHKOd at +1, Latios is too by Bounce, and Lando can be OHKO without any boosts. Almost all initially faster pokemon can be picked off easily, leaving slower walls that can be subbed against and set up against even more. Gyarados is a really effectice sweeper that can destroy things with just a small boost and can function without much other than maybe spin support.
So I've been experimenting with a lot of offensive powerhouse threats, and I've been very impressed with is Sub Dragon Dance Gyarados.
Gyarados @ Leftovers
Adamant / Intimidate
56 HP / 252 Atk / 204 Spe
~Substitute
~Dragon Dance
~Waterfall
~Bounce
With a typing unique to itself and only 4 other pokemon, Gyarados has a lot of useful, key resistances that allows it to set up against some of the most frightening pokemon of the tier, sheerly because of its typing and decent special bulk. For instance, it can tank Hidden Power Ices from Lando-I all day, and OHKO with Waterfall. It doesn't mind Hydro Pumps from Keldeo at all, can set up a DD or two, and KO with Bounce. It walls Volcarona too- with resistances to bug and fire, Volca lacking HP Rock will be in for a tough ride. Intimidate lets it defeat physical attackers too. Choice Band Scizor is easy setup bait, as -1 Bullet Punch only does ~19%, requiring two hits to break the Sub. Breloom would also be in a fix, as its Bullet Punch doesn't do much after Intimidate and it can easily be picked off by Bounce. If you can sub against a Spore, you can even set up. Speaking of Substitute, it lets Gyarados overcome one of its greatest weaknesses- Rotom-W, which often must switch out in order to hit Gyarados for much. Substitute also lets Gyarados set up on weaker attackers such as Amoongus, Slowbro, Heatran, or Jellicent.
After it sets up, it can easily smash its opponents, as Waterfall / Bounce are near perfect coverage. Waterfall is extremely powerful after a few boosts, and can easily OHKO most of the tier, while Bounce handles Grass types and Dragon types. It can eliminate many top threats this way- the musketeers are both OHKOd at +1, Latios is too by Bounce, and Lando can be OHKO without any boosts. Almost all initially faster pokemon can be picked off easily, leaving slower walls that can be subbed against and set up against even more. Gyarados is a really effectice sweeper that can destroy things with just a small boost and can function without much other than maybe spin support.
Actually i think keldeo is the best submission so far, so ill probably vote for that. there arent really many things that can counter it, and if there are any they are easy to take advantage of with others pokemon.
Btw i chose alazakam because of his ability and great neutral coverage against anything, dont forget that you cant beat it with hazard which are very important for this project, see ctp 1 which was around deo-d setting up spikes, but also ctp 2 where skarmory had an huge impact against the other team.
Btw i chose alazakam because of his ability and great neutral coverage against anything, dont forget that you cant beat it with hazard which are very important for this project, see ctp 1 which was around deo-d setting up spikes, but also ctp 2 where skarmory had an huge impact against the other team.
Gyarados is brilliant in the meta right now, IMHO - however, it's not brilliant as the first pick of a CtP. Thunderbolt Rotom-W ruins it hard, since Substitute can only save you from sets that only use Volt Switch as electric attack. Furthermore, anything with a Water immunity / resistance + Substitute or Protect can just laugh at Gyarados while it proceeds to completely neuter its Bounce attempts (Waterfall will either be completely absorbed or not do much damage). Furthermore, it doesn't even achieve the goal of preventing the opponent from picking Lando / Keldeo / whatever, since Gothitelle exists, and it would put you into an uncomfortable position: it can outspeed and OHKO with Thunderbolt, so it can switch in liberally while you Sub / DD, and kill you wihout problems (yeah, +1 Waterfall does not OHKO without hazards, and only does in about 60% of the cases with SR). Overall, it's just too risky to attempt now, however it can be a great pick later on I guess.
Yep, right now we should aim for a Pokemon with few counters that can switch in (and are easily patched up). Thats why our best options IMO are Landorus-I, Hydreigon, Salamence and Alakazam. Possibly Kyurem-B too. This puts immediate pressure on team 2 to find a good counter and something to back it up.
Might as well post this here too (it was first posted in the creative sets thread) as it fits with the concept very well:
I added Thunderbolt so we can use this set outside of rain as well. The great thing about this set is that it hardly has any hard counters, and the only counters to this set in OU, Ferrothorn and Gastrodon, are easy to wear down or take advantage of and both force a passive play, which is exactly what we want. U-turn is a great move for this concept too, and Thundurus-T is a great user of it.
I also agree with ganj4lf. SubDD Gyarados is an excellent Pokemon but it doesn't go well in this concept. Other than the Pokemon that ganj4lf mentioned, Perish Song Celebi + Heatran/Skarmory/Magnezone/Jirachi hard wall Gyarados, making it impossible for Gyarados to threat anything without huge support. Not to mention that SubDD Gyarados usually needs rain to function, and Pokemon that require support in order to work are never good first picks.
alexwolf said:
I added Thunderbolt so we can use this set outside of rain as well. The great thing about this set is that it hardly has any hard counters, and the only counters to this set in OU, Ferrothorn and Gastrodon, are easy to wear down or take advantage of and both force a passive play, which is exactly what we want. U-turn is a great move for this concept too, and Thundurus-T is a great user of it.
I also agree with ganj4lf. SubDD Gyarados is an excellent Pokemon but it doesn't go well in this concept. Other than the Pokemon that ganj4lf mentioned, Perish Song Celebi + Heatran/Skarmory/Magnezone/Jirachi hard wall Gyarados, making it impossible for Gyarados to threat anything without huge support. Not to mention that SubDD Gyarados usually needs rain to function, and Pokemon that require support in order to work are never good first picks.
Fixed Life Orb, and the main use is to use offensive support with strong priority, a nice chance of an accuracy hindrance, and momentum.
Correct if I'm wrong of anything but here's my two cents on throwing in Thundurus-T so easily:
Thundurus-T is a U-Turn pivot Pokemon which is great. However, Thundurus-T is Stealth Rock weak which really sucks. This forces us to run a Magic Bouncer or Rapid Spinner which may not be an optimal choice for the team just yet. Honestly, I feel Landorus-Incarnate with Sheer+LO could be better at this job, just because of his devastating power that he can bring and the U-Turning he can do isn't hindered as much by Stealth Rock. Landorus is also a great Celebi, Lati@s lure and packing U-Turn on such a Pokemon will be amazing, especially one with higher base Attack power.
This is why as of now, I really feel like picking Expert Belt Keldeo or Sheer Force Landorus with U-Turn will be super-important. They synergize well and honestly they can threaten a vast majority of the OU Metagame.
Thundurus-T is a U-Turn pivot Pokemon which is great. However, Thundurus-T is Stealth Rock weak which really sucks. This forces us to run a Magic Bouncer or Rapid Spinner which may not be an optimal choice for the team just yet. Honestly, I feel Landorus-Incarnate with Sheer+LO could be better at this job, just because of his devastating power that he can bring and the U-Turning he can do isn't hindered as much by Stealth Rock. Landorus is also a great Celebi, Lati@s lure and packing U-Turn on such a Pokemon will be amazing, especially one with higher base Attack power.
This is why as of now, I really feel like picking Expert Belt Keldeo or Sheer Force Landorus with U-Turn will be super-important. They synergize well and honestly they can threaten a vast majority of the OU Metagame.
Well, sure, a phazing Heatran would work well. Except if Heatran gets worn down at all, a 2x STAB Psychic isn't exactly going to feel pretty even with the resistance. Heatran also has no reliable recovery and can't phaze forever, while Mew can just hit it for some damage and take the Roar or play games and Baton Pass. Meanwhile, Heatran is very easily counter-picked, itself.
I'd just like to reiterate the importance of choosing a pokemon who is extremely limited in counters/switch ins. Doing so brings out the full potential of this project: finding creative solutions to deal with huge powerhouses. For that reason, I feel as if Kyurem-B and Landorus are the best options. Both of these have virtually ZERO safe switchins, and the very few that exist are quickly worn down. However, I feel as if landorus locks us into an offensive sand/rain team as pursuit/overloading with keldeo is sure to follow. Plus, options to coutner lando have been explored to hell and back in the suspect thread. Kyurem on the other hand works incredibly well in any weather, including weatherless, and its great resistances allow for a very nice number of switchins (though one or two are only ever necessary) while locking the opponent into a very high-pressure situation.
Mew. It just falls way to short. So many things outspeed and honestly, outperform the pink thing. Mew's terrible typing will also create synergy issues and not to mention that Mew sup-par performance will really be a hindrance for the team. He's just so... outclassed and honestly once you know what set a Mew is running it becomes 100x easier to counter him.
Tabuu i completely agree with you that U-turn Sheer Force Landorus is one of the most difficult Pokemon to counter and pretty self-sufficient, making it a perfect pick for this project. However, my problem with this set is that it is already very popular and everybody already knows how to counter it and deal with it. I would prefer us to pick a Pokemon that is both hard to counter and not so common in general, meaning that the ways to deal with it haven't been fully explored, giving us more things to discuss in this thread and allowing for greater creativity (this is not necessary, it is just something that i like).
I agree that it would be nice to have a "not so common" Pokemon, but I don't think that this is the right project for that, since the team will analyse every pick into detail, effectively neutering every uncommon/surprising trait it had going for it. The creativity part hopefully comes into play, when the teams will be picking their last two Pokemon. Right now and especially for the first pick it is important to pressure the opponent as hard as possible. What could serve this role better than U-turn Landorus?
On a sidenote, you said "everybody already knows how to counter it". Am I missing something? I thought Sheer Force Landorus with U-turn was pretty much uncounterable.
An Ice Shard user like Mamoswine or Weavile would simply get picked to combat that. Neither of those would be hard to counter since all that would have to be chosen is Scizor or a Mach Punch user not named Breloom.
Still, I like that Lando-I w/ U-turn the best so far and expect both Lando-I selections to get the bulk of the votes.
What Vemane said. One of the main points of this thread is to find new and interesting ways to check and counter certain Pokemon, which are in general very difficult to counter. U-turn Landorus has been discussed a lot in the suspect thread and even rare and niche counters to it have been found, such as Moltres and RestTalk Gyarados.
As for whether U-turn Sheer Force Landorus is uncounterable, no it isn't. RestTalk Gyarados, Moltres, and SpD Zapdos are all good counters, as long as you manage to keep SR off the field.
As for whether U-turn Sheer Force Landorus is uncounterable, no it isn't. RestTalk Gyarados, Moltres, and SpD Zapdos are all good counters, as long as you manage to keep SR off the field.
I don't think so, it's not that easy. Having an Ice Shard user on your team (example: Mamoswine) doesn't mean that you are not going to struggle against Sheer Force Landorus, it can easily come against a poke that can do much to it and fire off an Earth Power. Obviously, you can't switch your mamo on that attack, so you have to sacrifice something and send the mammoth next turn. Then, your opponent can easily switch-out to skarmory, for example.