NU Viability Ranking

[Sweet Jesus]

i think sawk, musharna, and gardevoir should be moved out of s rank.

sawk has serious competition with primeape and doesn't really accomplish anything that it doesn't. being locked into close combat is really dangerous and can let scolipede set up which is never good.

musharna can't really keep up with the fast paced nature of this metagame and can't completely counter the top fighting-type in primeape. scolipede destroys it with some prior damage so it can't claim to be able to take hits from all the top physical threats anymore.

gardevoir is directly outclassed by jynx when it comes to lo 3 attacks and choice sets. the only saving grace it has is the support set and that is not effective at all in this metagame.

I Agree with all of this bar maybe the part about sawk, musharna doesn't tank scolipede at all which has become one of the greatest threats in the meta and one of the most popular fighting types now has u-turn.

Gardevoir is really outclassed by jynx who also boasts a better ability since the coolest thing about trace was to copy swft swim but jynx deals pretty well with water types too (and can wall gorebyss unlike gardy). Obviously, the speed difference also plays a huge role along with secondary stab, immunity to aqua jet and of course lovely kiss.

Sawk however still has mold breaker over ape and is not forced to go choice band if you fear scoli will set up (I mean LO here, not scarf). breaking sturdy is still very cool in this meta where stuff often custap explode and where missy and weezing are getting more and more common. Sawk is also sligtly bulkier which may seem stupid since both are pretty frail, but after using preimeape a lot, I've been a little deceived about how it can't take much priority moves + hazards. I'm not sure if I'd keep sawk in S rank, I think there's a debate to be done here.

Also, why hasn't zangoose dropped yet ? It really isn't the monster it used to be, it's outsped by a huge portion of the meta, suffers more than any other from kagna's fake out and heavy hazards and he smells bad.

 

[WhiteDMist]

I actually haven't found Scholipede to be that good. Prehaps I am only see noobs play against it, but I have never been terrified of Scholipede. Scholipede can't get spikes up at the start, thanks to the rock weakness (one layer of spikes, but still), and its attacking sets are beaten by faster Choice Scarfers, like Rapidash, or even Primeape.

I would say A Rank if anything, I juts haven't been impressed by Scholipede

That is a bit inaccurate though. Scolipede can always set up Spikes later in the game, especially since it can switch into Grass and Fighting-type attacks pretty easily. One of the most popular offensive sets is the SubSD variant with Salac Berry, which allows Scolipede to outspeed most common Scarfers except Zebstrika. You also cannot deny that it is versatile, being able to set up hazards or sweep teams. For each of those roles, it can also customize its set and EV spread to work for the specific team itself (ie- bulky Spiker, SubSD Baton Pass, Life Orb 3 Attacks with Spikes, Choice Band, etc.)

@bobbyvaporeon: Musharna may wall a decent amount of physical attackers, but the fact remains that the new drops are threatening to it and have changed the metagame's offensive capabilities. Sawk has competition from Primeape now who can easily U-turn out of Musharna into a massive threat. Scolipede threatens to OHKO Musharna with Rocks and a layer of Spikes (or a Swords Dance). Jynx can simply put Musharna to Sleep and spam hits or set up on it. Munchlax utterly walls Musharna and forces it out. You do wall stuff like Golem, Regirock and Piloswine, but they rarely are used as offensive threats in lieu of setting up Rocks.

As for Sawk, it still boasts the massive power it had before, but its base 85 Speed has finally come back to bite it. It definitely maintains the anti-lead role with Mold Breaker, and the power difference between it and Primeape is enough to perhaps keep it S-Rank. But is breaking Sturdy mons and being a powerful attacker enough in such a fast meta?

 

[Shuckleking87]

I never really thought Gardevoir was worthy of a S rank, and Jynx can really do just about everything but a calm mind set imo, as ice is such a good attacking typing. Musharna, especially with the increase in spikes and honestly, scolipede, jynx, primeape and munchlax all lessen its effectiveness, so I can see that going down as well. However, I believe Sawk is still a S rank poke due to the sheer power of the CB set and the surprise factors of a choice scarf or even a expert belt set. Also one of the best pokes to prevent stealth rocks. I would also propose moving Zebstrika to B rank, as it does very well against the 3 attacking drop downs, as it can out speed and kill all of them with thunderbolt/overheat

 

[Punchshroom]

Swellow is also doing great in this metagame: Swellow preys on all the RU drops (unboosted or slightly weakened in Munchlax's case) and also the increasingly popular Misdreavus. Pursuit Swellow is sooo good at eliminating Jynx and Misdreavus. Nearly all usable Rocks and Steels in the tier are checked by Primeape while Musharna can only watch. Scolipede can also set down quick Spikes and/or Toxic Spikes which wear down literally all of Swellow's counters while maintaining good offensive momentum unlike other Spikers, or perhaps you'd like to get ambitious and pass SD boosts to Swellow (god forbid). I'd like to nominate Swellow for A-Rank due to the highly favourable metagame changes.

Edit: @FortressDoor it's not jst that set that places Scolipede in S-Tier (presumably!...but still highly likely), it's the combination of all its individual viable sets that are effective in their own right that almost guarantees Scolipede does something in a match.

 

[FortressDoor]

That is a bit inaccurate though. Scolipede can always set up Spikes later in the game, especially since it can switch into Grass and Fighting-type attacks pretty easily. One of the most popular offensive sets is the SubSD variant with Salac Berry, which allows Scolipede to outspeed most common Scarfers except Zebstrika. You also cannot deny that it is versatile, being able to set up hazards or sweep teams. For each of those roles, it can also customize its set and EV spread to work for the specific team itself (ie- bulky Spiker, SubSD Baton Pass, Life Orb 3 Attacks with Spikes, Choice Band, etc.)

Prehaps I was a bit unfair, lol. But Grass attacks are not that highly used in NU, particulary ones that are locked into a Grass type move. It is also really frail, and Fighting types generally carry Stone Edge.
I forgot about the SubSD set, which is quite good, but does that set give Scholipede S Rank?
Another thing worth noting is that Scholipede is weak to Rocks, which doesn't help it at all.
Scholpiede is versatile, and I am not trying to say it is bad. It just doesn't fit the description of S-Rank.

Speaking of S-Rank, I am wondering if Samurott should be A-Rank. I will write down about it later, but I don't think Samurott is THAT good. High A-Rank, but no S-Rank

 

[Dell]

Hmm, interesting picks so far. I'm going to nominate Serperior for A-rank (maybe even higher, but not sure at the moment), who is actually clearly the best offensive Grass type that you can choose from now (sorry Zebraiken). Simisage is decently powerful, but its Speed stat just simply cuts short against one of the most used and best offensive Pokemon in the tier, Scolipede, while Serperior's Offensive Calm Mind set has a significantly better sweeping potential due to its great bulk, access to useful support moves to aid it like Taunt and Substitute, and the ability to outpace Scolipede. Serperior can also easily get past most Pokemon that carry a super effective move like Haunter, Jynx, and Charizard, and part of that stems from it being able to shrug off an attack after a boost if they're Scarf or if Serperior chooses to go for the +2 or strike back for the kill with Giga Drain/Hidden Power Rock/Fire. Serperior also can setup on virtually any wall, special attacker and Stealth Rock user in the tier because of Taunt and its useful bulk and also benefits greatly from the lack of viable Grass types (particularly Roselia) in the currently metagame, being Tangela as the most common for some reason which is easily set up on.

Keep in mind that I'm referring to the Life Orb set with Calm Mind, Giga Drain, Taunt, and Hidden Power Rock/Fire.

Zebstrika is a Pokemon that I'd totally agree with moving into a higher rank. I feel like a Life Orb offensive set with Thunderbolt, Overheat, HP Grass, and Volt Switch might be the best way to go for the metagame since it's going to be forcing a lot of switches against offensive and defensive teams alike due to it's coverage and very useful Speed stat that allows it to outpace Scolipede. It also functions as a nice check to Volt-Turn teams due to Lightningrod as well.

Gurdurr should be moved to B-rank. I don't think I need to cover too much, especially based upon what's been said already for about 3-4 pages.

I'm thinking about nominating Zangoose for A-rank, but I'm not too sure (as a matter of fact, I'm one of those players that's adamant into keeping this Pokemon into the S-ranking). Sure Toxic Boost Goose, the reason that this thing is S-rank in the first place, is a huge threat in the metagame. It's a boosting physical attacker with great coverage and useful priority (with the ability to OHKO Jynx after Rocks with Quick Attack) with a pretty dominating typing in the metagame. However, it just isn't what it used to be when the set originally was suspected (and trust me, I'm not at all basing this on ladder experience). Frankly, Zangoose hardly even pulls sweeps nowadays, because every decent team prepares for it by at bringing at least two checks, priority/choice scarf users, or Pokemon that can tank a hit and OHKO in return (common examples are bringing Missy+Golem, Volt-Turn Offense, and priority users like Kangaskhan and Piloswine), so it's often forced into using its priority at misleading times or just switching out. Don't get me wrong; it's still as strong as ever and it hasn't been nerfed or anything, but it just doesn't do as significant as it did in the past anymore. I'm still questioning about this decision, and even if it does drop I can very much see it rising in the future.

Swellow should be a consideration of A-ranking as well, but I'll get to that in a few. What do you guys think?

 

[skylight]

Another thing worth noting is that Scholipede is weak to Rocks, which doesn't help it at all.
Scholpiede is versatile, and I am not trying to say it is bad. It just doesn't fit the description of S-Rank.

Braviary is weak to Rock-type attacks and it's S-rank. Volcarona takes 50% from Rock-type attacks and it's OU. I don't think that said point in particular holds much water as other great Pokemon are weak to SR and are ranked or tiered highly.

As for the description,

Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the NU metagame.

Yeah, seems to fit.

These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well.

SubSalac, Spikes, CB, anything else in Next Best Thing, etc.

Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted.

Packing a Scolipede on your team means you gain more than you lose (which is very little).

Pokemon in this tier have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.

Such as Scolipede's STAB Megahorn, high speed, loads of coverage moves, a variety of sets that can be used, and so on.

So it seems to fit the description in my opinion.

 

[Punchshroom]

What I said yeah.

Also, Liepard seems to have been stunted by Pede and Ape's appearance: the former being faster and the latter U-Turning out of Swagger shenanigans or KO with Close Combat. However, all that did was keep Liepard out of A-Rank imo (which it still has a shot at). Liepard should still be in B-Rank for these reasons, though the reduction of Psychics in the tier bar Jynx (can't switch into Ice Beam) made life harder for Liepard to try out for A-Rank.

Simisear may also share a spot in B-Rank with Simisage (still iffy about the latter's ranking), since Fire-types are pretty damn good in this meta, and can still Focus Blast a certain tub of lard. I rue the day Simipour is the least usable of the three though since pre-Jynx, Simipour was the best monkey for me, especially ScarfPour.

Almost forgot about Rapidash, who can take advantage of Misdreavus's Will-o-Wisp and Low Kick Munchlax hard. Unfortunately, being outsped by Pede and SR weakness coupled with inability to not wreck itself just by using its STAB may still put it in B-Rank. What do you think?

 

[Five Green]

I think Alomomola should be moved down to B-Rank. I don't think she can keep up with the meta anymore; can't touch Scolipede unless she gets lucky with a Scald burn while the bug can put multiple Spikes on the floor or Swords Dance or whatever he's designed to do. Then, she invites Jynx to set up. :S

Skuntank too imo should be moved down to B, because it's not that useful anymore. Last round I literally packed a Skuntank in every team I made because it was the best guy to check Psychic types that were so dominant, but now they aren't prominent, and I don't see any reason to run him anymore...

 

[Aasgier]

A long post, and I won't deny it being controversial at times, after playing about 80 games since the tier shift, I have noticed a variety of things, and I actually start to think that bar Munchlax and possibly Primeape, the drops have been more harmful than good to the NU metagame, though I really like the Felix (Liepard) reduction.

I agree Sawk should go down to A-rank.
Competition with Primeape is the main reason, the latter having even U-turn. Yes, it hits harder, and it has access to Mold Breaker, but the lack of speed when opposed with the new Base 95's that OHKO it frustrated me quite often.
Gurdurr has a similar issue (though way more bulk), and should go down to B-rank. It does not help Gurdurr loses to all drops unless it packs Fire Punch. Fire Punch + Ice Punch + Drain Punch + Mach Punch with either Iron Fist or Guts looks like Gurdurr's best bet in the current metagame, as it is still one of the bulkiest and most powerful attackers of NU. Previous to the drops, I favoured Gurdurr to stay in A-rank, but the additional competition is something pushing me down to drop it further.

I think Gardevoir should move down to A-rank, maybe even B-rank.
...What?...
Garde is very versatile and dangerous, but almost all offensive sets are outclassed by Jynx while for defensive sets Lickilicky exists. Dual Screens + Memento is basically the only thing that remains. It is still insanely dangerous, but only if we discount the drops. Now, I completely lost the point in why to use Garde.
Pretty much every team carries something faster than Garde now Scarf Primeape is fuckin' everywhere, which has both U-turn and Punishment to boot... Why should I use Gardevoir?

I think Glalie should move down to E-rank. It is no longer the fastest Spiker in the tier, and as such, it is losing its niche. It can't even Taunt Scolipede before it sets up a layer.
Being outclassed by Scolipede does not help Glalie (this is also why I no longer favour Leavanny moving up; Scolipede as well as Jynx defeat it handily).

Braviary should possibly also go down to A-rank. Still very good, but the new fast additions don't do it any favours at all, neither does the rise in usage for Misdreavus and Swellow.
Swellow outspeeds and cuts a hole in it with Brave Bird, Missy takes its attacks with grace and burns Braviary.
Primeape hits it hard with a move of choice, Jynx as well while Scolipede has Rock Slide.

Samurott, well, I am quite undecided on this because it is still very dangerous, but has huge issues with the drops as well, mostly because they all outspeed. I think it should move down to A-rank, though I don't mind it staying in S-rank because it still has Aqua Jet to deal with Primeape and Scolipede as long as they are weakened sufficiently. It really needs SD boosts to hit sufficiently hard on the physical side and LO to hit sufficiently hard on the special side, which cuts in Samurott's lifespan.
Zangoose is in a similar boat though its Quick Attack defeats Jynx, Primeape and Scoli still scare it out. A-rank for Zangoose, I favoured this already before the metagame shift and explained it back then, here:

Zangoose down to A-rank: Agreed completely. No need to repeat Constantinipple, though it is worth noting that Regirock should not use Stone Edge, but Drain Punch against Zangoose for several reasons (same damage output due to Zangoose's fighting weakness, but 100% accuracy and recovery).

Also, teams with Regirock or Metang don't even need to sac something against Zangoose. They can just switch in.

This even does not take the countless revenge-killers into account, and that number of revengekillers just increased with 3. Common ones, at that.

Swellow should rise up to A-rank, I agree with Punchshroom there. It defeats all the drops and that alone is the reason why it should be up there. AT LEAST. It has access to Pursuit, which always defeats Jynx even if it stays in because of Jynx pathetical defense, while Scolipede and Primeape are always scared out fearing Brave Bird.

Scolipede is S-rank for sure. This thing is just too good. So many sets it can run, they are all good, and you don't know what it is going to do.
A bit undecided about S or A-rank for Primeape and Jynx though, but they are both very good as well.
Primeape has a very common (and good) Scarf set, but E-belt is also good as well as a Banded set if you want something faster as Sawk but don't need the Scarf.
Jynx tend to run Lovely Kiss + 3 attacks sets, but SubPlot or PlotKiss are also very dangerous. When Jynx is in, usually something is going to die.

Many more things should drop while some should rise. I think we should ban Scoli and Jynx and be done with them, damn monsters.

Edit @ AgentDell: You are right about that, but I see them outclassing quite a few Pokémon. So even though talking about the actual results of banning them is theorymonning, talking about what they outclass is not.
The ridiculous amount of speed ties in between the base 95's is frustrating me as well recently.

I also wrote additional reasons down for why I don't think they fit in those tiers anymore.

@Tennisace:
Alomo fails to wall Leavanny, Leafeon, Luxray and the Raichu-line (even their physical attacking variants).

 

[Infernis]

I simply don't agree that Sawk should go down to A-Rank. It's still ludicrously powerful in all its varied forms, and the reduction in Musharna, Gardevoir, and Alomomola usage is only helping it. Most sets have to have support to deal with Primeape and Jynx, but there are plenty of fast Pokemon that deal with the new threats. Swellow, Ninjask, and Tauros in particular make great partners.

Pokemon in this tier have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.

Sawk's Flaws: Primeape and Jynx
Way to fix it: Use another Pokemon that's already really good for most teams. (Tauros is A-Rank already, and people are motioning for Swellow to join him. I'd nominate Ninjask for A, too, if it were easier to rapid spin in this tier.)

 

[Dell]

A long post, and I won't deny it being controversial at times, after playing about 80 games since the tier shift, I have noticed a variety of things, and I actually start to think that bar Munchlax and possibly Primeape, the drops have been more harmful than good to the NU metagame, though I really like the Felix (Liepard) reduction.


I agree Sawk should go down to A-rank.
Competition with Primeape is the main reason, the latter having even U-turn. Gurdurr has a similar issue, and should go down to B-rank. It does not help Gurdurr loses to all drops unless it packs Fire Punch. Fire Punch + Ice Punch + Drain Punch + Mach Punch with either Iron Fist or Guts looks like Gurdurr's best bet in the current metagame, as it is still one of the bulkiest and most powerful attackers of NU.

I think Gardevoir should move down to A-rank, maybe even B-rank.
...What?...
Garde is very versatile and dangerous, but almost all offensive sets are outclassed by Jynx while for defensive sets Lickilicky exists. Dual Screens + Memento is basically the only thing that remains. It is still insanely dangerous, but only if we discount the drops. Now, I completely lost the point in why to use Garde.
Pretty much every team carries something faster than Garde now Scarf Primeape is fuckin' everywhere, which has both U-turn and Punishment to boot...

I think Glalie should move down to E-rank. It is no longer the fastest Spiker in the tier, and as such, it is losing its niche.
Being outclassed by Scolipede does not help Glalie (this is also why I no longer favour Leavanny moving up; Scolipede as well as Jynx).

Braviary should possibly also go down to A-rank. Still very good, but the new fast additions don't do it any favours at all, neither does the rise in usage for Misdreavus and Swellow.

Samurott, well, I am quite undecided on this because it is still very dangerous, but has huge issues with the drops as well. Down to A-rank.
Zangoose is in a similar boat though its Quick Attack defeats Jynx, Primeape and Scoli still scare it out. A-rank for Zangoose.

Swellow should rise up to A-rank, I agree with Punchshroom there. It defeats all the drops and that alone is the reason why it should be up there. AT LEAST.

Scolipede is S-rank for sure. This thing is just too good. A bit undecided about S or A-rank for Primeape and Jynx though, but they are both very good as well.

Many more things should drop while some should rise. I think we should ban Scoli and Jynx and be done with them, damn monsters.

It's fine that you agree that Scolipede and Jynx are S-rank material, but I ask that you please do not talk about the possibility of banning the two at this time being, as 9 times out of 10 you don't have the sufficient experience to determine that this early, so anything regarding that is probably theorymon. Also, please be more specific about your reasoning behind various nominations that you are making, since it just seems like you're just stating what you think we want to hear (in other words, avoid generally correct, but very generic details) or just providing random minor details.

 

[tennisace]

I'm just going to comment on a couple nominations that seem a little off to me.

Serperior to A:

I don't believe the hype at all really. You can say it's the best Grass-type since it outspeeds Scolipede, but I don't understand how that helps Serperior at all unless you run HP Rock. If you run HP Rock > Dragon Tail, you lose to CM Musharna 1v1.

The whole point of Simisage is the immediate power: it 2hkos and outspeeds Haunter, which Serperior can't beat without a couple of boosts already in hand. It outpaces the base 95 speed group, which is insanely important in this metagame. It also has Focus Blast for coverage, which is nice vs Metang / Bastiodon / Probopass. Comparing the two is silly, especially since your point of emphasis is outspeeding a Pokemon that 4x resists your STAB.

Serperior is definitely good, but it's definitely still B-rank.

Samurott to A-rank:

I disagree entirely, and in fact, I believe Samurott has become even more dangerous with the drop of Jynx (and to a lesser extent Scolipede). Samurott has two entirely different sets that were both standards at one time: the SD Physical set, and the Special LO set. For a while, the LO set was the only one used really, since there wasn't much that could handle it. However, now that Jynx dropped, people have started using the Physical set much more often because you can catch Jynx on the switch, and priority is extremely useful in general with the new faster threats. However, if you make the wrong move and guess the set wrong, you lose a Pokemon or two. It's still immensely powerful, and now it's even harder to guess what it's going to do on its first time in. Samurott should stay in S-rank.

Alomomola to B-rank:

I also disagree with this. Alomomola is still the premier Physical wall and Wish passer in NU. Sure, spiker Scolipede sets can set up on mola. But it still walls SD sets cold. It also stonewalls every physical attacker still that isn't SD Zangoose or SD Sawsbuck. It isn't an S-rank mon, but it's still the best at what it does. Alomomola should stay in A-rank.

 

[Dell]

I'm just going to comment on a couple nominations that seem a little off to me.

Serperior to A:

I don't believe the hype at all really. You can say it's the best Grass-type since it outspeeds Scolipede, but I don't understand how that helps Serperior at all unless you run HP Rock. If you run HP Rock > Dragon Tail, you lose to CM Musharna 1v1.

The whole point of Simisage is the immediate power: it 2hkos and outspeeds Haunter, which Serperior can't beat without a couple of boosts already in hand. It outpaces the base 95 speed group, which is insanely important in this metagame. It also has Focus Blast for coverage, which is nice vs Metang / Bastiodon / Probopass. Comparing the two is silly, especially since your point of emphasis is outspeeding a Pokemon that 4x resists your STAB.

Serperior is definitely good, but it's definitely still B-rank.

Samurott to A-rank:

I disagree entirely, and in fact, I believe Samurott has become even more dangerous with the drop of Jynx (and to a lesser extent Scolipede). Samurott has two entirely different sets that were both standards at one time: the SD Physical set, and the Special LO set. For a while, the LO set was the only one used really, since there wasn't much that could handle it. However, now that Jynx dropped, people have started using the Physical set much more often because you can catch Jynx on the switch, and priority is extremely useful in general with the new faster threats. However, if you make the wrong move and guess the set wrong, you lose a Pokemon or two. It's still immensely powerful, and now it's even harder to guess what it's going to do on its first time in. Samurott should stay in S-rank.

Alomomola to B-rank:

I also disagree with this. Alomomola is still the premier Physical wall and Wish passer in NU. Sure, spiker Scolipede sets can set up on mola. But it still walls SD sets cold. It also stonewalls every physical attacker still that isn't SD Zangoose or SD Sawsbuck. It isn't an S-rank mon, but it's still the best at what it does. Alomomola should stay in A-rank.

Uh, except that Serperior actually doesn't need Dragon Tail to beat CM Musharna. Taunt and boosted Giga Drain, hello (which also means that it's setting up on Probopass and Bastiodon)? Also, why shouldn't you be running HP Rock if it's the best thing to do as a coverage move in the offensive Calm Mind set that I'm talking about? That's just common sense. Why would it need to phaze when you can just play it out offensively like you're supposed to?

Also, Scolipede is OHKO'd by HP Rock after Stealth Rock, so that's not irrelevant at all.

Regarding the Serperior vs. Haunter matchup, the only time that Serperior isn't beating that is when Serperior hasn't boosted yet. If Haunter switches in on a +1 Serperior, it can just go for the +2 and take about half with Sludge Bomb, while Serperior OHKO's with whatever (even Giga Drain after rocks). Haunter is also taking well over 80% from a +1 Hidden Power as well.

Alomomola isn't walling Scolipede SD sets anytime soon, since it's generally OHKO'd by +4 Megahorn.

 

[Five Green]

I also disagree with this. Alomomola is still the premier Physical wall and Wish passer in NU. Sure, spiker Scolipede sets can set up on mola. But it still walls SD sets cold. It also stonewalls every physical attacker still that isn't SD Zangoose or SD Sawsbuck. It isn't an S-rank mon, but it's still the best at what it does. Alomomola should stay in A-rank.

Alomomola can't do nothing much in return to Scolipede, unless a lucky burn, while Scolipede can set up +6 for free. And, even if it gets burned, he can Baton Pass these boosts to something else.

 

[tennisace]

Re: Serperior, you still haven't responded to my main point that its just not A-rank. It has trouble with numerous Pokemon, and its quite weak initially.

Re Alomomola: 0Atk Alomomola (Neutral) Waterfall vs 4HP/0Def Scolipede (Neutral): 29% - 34% (76 - 90 HP). Guaranteed 4HKO. Guaranteed 3HKO with SR. How does it get to +6?

Also: @Tennisace:
Alomo fails to wall Leavanny, Leafeon, Luxray and the Raichu-line (even their physical attacking variants).

None of these pokemon are NU and thus shouldn't be relevant to general theorymon.

 

[Aasgier]

Also: @Tennisace:
Alomo fails to wall Leavanny, Leafeon, Luxray and the Raichu-line (even their physical attacking variants).

None of these pokemon are NU and thus shouldn't be relevant to general theorymon.

What?
Since when did they all rise to RU?

Hide

JK, I know you mean they are low in usage (or at least I hope so). However, that does not mean they can't be used if someone feels like it.

 

[ryan]

I feel like Sawk is still the same huge offensive threat it always was. The thing is, its role isn't to outspeed everything and sweep; it's a wallbreaker that puts serious dents on Pokemon that it doesn't OHKO. With Mold Breaker, Sturdy Pokemon cannot even survive a Close Combat. Its main wall, Musharna, has dropped in usage due to its inability to handle any of the drops (Scolipede, Jynx, Munchlax, and Primeape (who can U-turn out on it)). Alomomola is still a thing, but a banded Close Combat still does major damage.

252Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Sawk (+Atk) Close Combat vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Alomomola (+Def): 48% - 57% (261 - 307 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.

If it has enough previous damage, it 2HKOs. Of course, this doesn't necessarily mean anything due to Regenerator. However, with Stealth Rock and Spikes support (which obviously are not difficult to come by), it 2HKOs. This means it can't even switch in.

I feel like it is still plenty deserving of S-Rank because of its clear ability to break down the defensive cores of teams. It's still a great mon. Locking yourself into Close Combat is just as dangerous as it was last stage, but that's the risk vs. reward aspect that almost any Choice user brings.

I agree with A-Rank for the reasons others have stated.

You can refer to my post two pages back.

With the tier moving towards a move Hyper-Offensive state due the drops of Scolipede, Jynx, and Primeape, I feel that a Pokemon that has previously been more underlooked could easily move up in viability rankings.

Swellow is a new, HUGE threat right now. It hits really hard, and it's blistering fast--qualities which are much more appreciated now than they were before. It outspeeds all the new drop-downs and can OHKO all of them from full. It can handle Hyper Offense really well on its own. That said, it's also even better on Hyper Offense, working as a partner to these three--more notable, both Scolipede and Primeape. This is because it is one of the few offensive Pokes in the tier that LOVES to switch in on defensive Musharna. It can absorb a burn, and it cannot be touched by Shadow Ball. It also doesn't care at all about Taunt, and with ever dwindling HP due to status and recoil, it cannot be outstalled by Pain Split all that easily.

Having said all of that, I would nominate Swellow for A-tier without hesitation.

As for the rest of them, I either have no opinion on them or haven't play them.

 

[NfskMjmMal]

I find it very interesting that every single S-rank Pokemon has had at least one, and most times multiple, arguments for why it should move down to A-rank. And since it's been argued that Scolipede could be A, not S, it's actually possible that if all the changes are made, this thread will have no S-rank Pokemon in it. Of course that's not going to happen, just an interesting point I noticed.

About Sawk vs Primeape, yes they are very similar obviously, but they don't play exactly the same roles. Primeape is much better as a Scarf scout, having a higher speed and U-turn. However, Sawk is better suited for breaking walls with its higher Attack stat. I definitely would not say Primeape outclasses Sawk.

 

[Ewil]

My 2 cents on the possible changes:

Sawk stays S-Rank

Sawk is a wonderful wallbreaker and Sturdy killer, that's his roles and he is one of the best (if not THE best) in doing this. Do not compare him to Primeape, since Ape's Role is principally to revenge kill and scout. Sawk can threaten even Misdreavus and Weezing with a Mold Breaker CB Earthquake that does a good chunk to them (the latter is hugely damaged if not killed, i've no time to doing calcs at the moment). He can also performs good LO/Experbelt/Scarf/BU sets if you like surprise factor. His speed doesn't matters a lot since is supposed to come in after a switch or a predicted weak/resisted hit and causes huge damage to the opponent team.

Musharna, Gardevoir and Zangoose for A-Rank

With the 4 drops, Psychic-Type are gonna having a bad time this round. Primeape threatens them with U-Turn and switch to a counter, Scolipede is super-fast and has STAB Megahorn, Jynx is offensively superior to Musharna and Gardevoir thanks to Nasty Plot and Lovely Kiss principally and Munchlax can tanks special hits like a champ and phaze CM Musharna, so Garde and Mushy have to drops. Zangoose like someone else has just say, is frail, always put on a timer and doesn't have that good speed anymore (and he's weak to SR and Spikes and is not happy to receive priority attacks).

Jynx and Scolipede for S-Rank

I play a lot with Jynx and Scolipede in Round 0 and in this Round and they perfectly fits the S-Rank description. Jynx can run multiple sets like the LO LK+3Attacks, the SubPlot set, The SubPlot Mono attack set, a Specs set and a Scarf set, hell even a CM set if you want. Her speed is awesome and she's one of the new speed defining pokemon of the tier. Her dual typing is offensively good and you can choose between Psychic or Psyshock depending on your team needs.

Scolipede is the new monster speed and Psychic Killer. Everybody has stated that he has a lots of sets that can use effectively, he has good coverage with his moves and is pretty much unpredictable since he can perform Offensive, Support and Defensive sets. So i think that he fits perfectly the S-Rank description.

 

[Punchshroom]

Alright, so Golurk....isn't what it used to be. Don't get me wrong, it still hits pretty damn hard or spinblocks its own SR while sporting good coverage, but the fast paced metagame means Golurk can't quite keep up anymore. Its Ground-typing that made it so fearsome offensively has finally come back to bite it, as Jynx can KO with Ice Beam while Scolipede can strike back with Aqua Tail, which really botches up its otherwise acceptable bulk. Golurk is probably very still worthy for A-Rank, but I'm starting to have my doubts. Other Ground-types can take much stronger hits (Piloswine's Eviolite and Golem's Sturdy) and even dish out priority to overcome their lackluster speed; Misdreavus on the other hand makes a far better spinblocker due to its better survivability and defensive typing (Missy wouldn't be what it is today should it be part-Ground), granted it cannot setup SR.

Offensively, its weaknesses and speed hold it back, and the rise of Weezing and Misdreavus did it no favours (non-CB Golurk can lose to Missy, with No Guard variants being especially vulnerable).

 

[Infernis]

Golurk still has the fact that it is a spin blocker that can lay down stealth rock. The electric immunity isn't bad either. It's immune to Close Combat and takes pitiful damage from everything Primeape has to dish out other than Ice Punch, which parallels its niche of walling every Sawk that doesn't carry it. But I think the best set is still the Choice Band set. Golurk isn't outrunning many people, but he still has the niche of hitting like a truck. Stone Edge completely obliterates Jynx and Scolipede on the switch. I don't think Golurk is going down so much as his standard moveset of earthquake/ice punch/shadow punch/drain punch is going down. Somewhere, there needs to be room for Stone Edge. Ice Punch is probably the easiest to replace, since rock hits flying types just as hard as ice. (He'll have a harder time with Tangrowth, though.)

 

[Farobi]

I think we should send Rotom-Frost down to B-Rank. Don't get me wrong, Rotom-Frost is still pretty good, but ever since Snover has moved up to RU, it just isn't as good as it was before. Relying on a seventy percent accurate move or Hidden Power as a form of STAB isn't what I should see in an A-Rank Pokemon, and it competes with Electabuzz or Rotom-S as a Choice Scarfed Volt Switch user because of Rotom-S' more reliable (albeit still inaccurate) STAB, and Electabuzz's higher base tier (outspeeds the base 95s!). I also think that the Rotom forms became a lot less useful with Primeape becoming the staple scarfer of the tier. Pretty much all the drops really hinder Rotom-Frost's usefulness, Scolipede outspeeding and hitting it hard with STAB Megahorn or maybe Rock Slide or Superpower, Primeape's Close Combats, Munchlax's walling capabilities and Whirlwind (though Trick can cripple it), and even Jynx, who has Focus Blast and Lovely Kiss and is also a better Ice Type in general.

Also, what do you think of Exeguttor's placement in A-rank? Psychics and Grass Types are a lot less useful in this metagame because of the prevalence of Scolipede, U-turn Primeape, SleepTalking Munchlax, and Jynx - but is Exeguttor still worthy to be an A-Rank Pokemon?

EDIT: I also nominate Glaceon for D-Rank, maybe even E-Rank. I see almost no reason to use Glaceon anymore. Bulky Glaceon isn't good in this meta at all, whereas the offensive one is outclassed by Jynx, who has a higher base speed and a better movepool. Sure, Glaceon has a higher base Special Attack, but Glaceon has no "good" way of boosting its moves, Shadow Ball and Hidden Power for coverage sucks, and it is outpaced by almost all relevant offensive threats in this metagame. Stall teams may find some trouble with it, but they usually carry something like Regice, Lickilicky, or Piloswine in the wings. I just don't think Glaceon is good at all; the only thing going for it is its high base Special Attack probably.

 

[Dell]

You shouldn't really compare Exeggutor to other Psychic types, nor Jynx due to its versatility, but I would still place Exeggutor into A rank, as teams these days usually has no defensive mechanism against Choice Specs Exeggutor due to Leaf Storm, Psyshock (which means that Munchlax or Scolipede doesn't really beat it), Sleep Powder, and HP whatever. It's also one of the defining forces of Sun Offense teams (which is worth noting since the weather lessens the team's issue with Jynx), since it's capable of setting up Sunny Day and sweeping through most teams with Charizard with relative ease (and can even work as a standalone sweeper), has Sleep Powder still, and outpaces everything barring Chioce Scarf Primeape.

 

[Shuckleking87]

I don't understand why you wouldn't compare exeggutor with the other psychic types in the tier. Exeggutor is really slow, especially in this metagame, so even if there is no safe switch in to it, pokes can get off a decent hit before dying. Forcing it to lock into leaf storm--> scoliopede comes in safely and sets up a sub. Psyshock is probably its safest move. HP Ice/ whatever really isn't going to be too strong. Sleep powder is nice, but accuracy really sucks, and could lose exeggutor if it cannot take 2 hits. Sunny Day Exeggutor/ attempting to sweep with exeggutor isn't that great either, as it's not as fast as it should be with doubled speed, as common choice scarfed pokemon can beat it with the ultra common U-turn. It's also easy to predict sunny day exeggutor imo (now whether you can do anything about it or not is a different question). Well choice scarfed ape is an extremely common poke, and people are starting to use scarfed pokes that outspeed primeape, so exeggutor doesn't come close to outspeeding everything compared to a victrebel, ludicolo, floatzel etc. I think its best set is the sub seed sitrus berry set, especially with spike support. Even though Exeggutor is a power house, Rampardos is also a powerhouse that can basically kill any poke. Rampardos can also double its speed with rock polish, and can run a special move to complement its set. So Rampardos is also versitile in that sense. Rampardos, however, is not bulky at all, and for exeggutor, it will be killed by practically any U-turn, has competition like jynx and gardevoir, and is beaten by all drop down pokes. I think I would leen towards putting exeggutor in B, but I would be fine either way