Bleach Discussion Thread

[tehy]

There better be a REALLY good explanation here.

Like, why did he change when Bankai happened. How'd he know Ichigo's zanpakuto's name. How did he tell him about his Zanpakuto techniques. How was he drawn out during the Bankai training.

And also...what the hell is going on here?

 

[Lelouch6]

I can't really find it in me to blame kubo for this, zangetsu did look like bach, I just completely forgot about it and it didn't help that zangetsu didn't appear that way for hundreds of chapters, I thought it was a nice reveal

 

[popemobile]

Bleach:

 

[Pocket]

thanks TNT for the mangastream translation - mangaeden's translation blows

so basically, zangetsu = aizen's white hollow, and juha bach was pretending to be zangetsu?

HOLY SHIET

 

[Furosuto]

Allow me to explain for those who don't understand......

Essentially, Masaki was hollowfied. That makes Ichigo part hollow, part quincy.

Isshin used his shinigami powers to seal the hollow, blending the two together, which is how we got Hollow Ichigo being Zangetsu.

Juha Bach sent a manifestation of himself into Ichigo's sword since he is part quincy, to trick Ichigo. Essentially, I guess he's gonna use Ichigo, and wanted to keep Ichigo alive so he can use him, hence why Bach manifested himself into Ichigo's zanpakto.

But yeah, I hope that helps any that are having difficulty with this chapter.

 

[Soul Fly]

So WTF were they going on in early bleach about each soul having a unique link to a single soul slayer?

Does ichigo posses a "true" Soul Slayer spirit connection?

WTF. Confusing as fuck.

 

[Satisfaction]

Several early bleach topics were dropped namely "I can't see that guy losing" referring to Chad

 

[Chou Toshio]

Allow me to explain for those who don't understand......

Essentially, Masaki was hollowfied. That makes Ichigo part hollow, part quincy.

Isshin used his shinigami powers to seal the hollow, blending the two together, which is how we got Hollow Ichigo being Zangetsu.

Yeah, something like this. I think the fact that Zangetsu's Zanpakuto powers are very similar to Isshin's are more support for this type of theory. Since White was sealed with Isshin's powers, when White was transferred to Ichigo as his Asauchi, it makes sense that Zangetsu would get powers very similar to Isshin's, which were used to seal White.

Juha Bach sent a manifestation of himself into Ichigo's sword since he is part quincy, to trick Ichigo. Essentially, I guess he's gonna use Ichigo, and wanted to keep Ichigo alive so he can use him, hence why Bach manifested himself into Ichigo's zanpakto.

But yeah, I hope that helps any that are having difficulty with this chapter.

^I actually doubt this is how it's going to turn out. Rather than Ol' Man Zangetsu being something Bach himself put inside Ichigo, I think O' Man Zangetsu appears as the manifestation of Ichigo's spiritual powers naturally.

Bach is the "source" of all Quincy, and all Quincy carry his blood. I don't think its a coincidence that Ichigo's Quincy powers also resemble Bach as he existed at the time the Quincy were created.

What I'm saying is that it's not just Ichigo, but if any Quincy had the opportunity to manifest his spiritual powers (like a Zanpakuto spirit form), it's likely that those powers could/would take the form of Bach.

I don't think that Ol' Man Zangetsu has been lying to us until now. Nor do I think he's scheming or planning to use Ichigo. I don't think he's playing for team Quincy, he's just a manifestation of Ichigo's spiritual powers representing his Quincy ones (just like White represents his hollow powers). Because Bach is the source of all Quincy powers, he looks like Bach. However Ol Man Zangetsu himself is probably a true guardian of Ichigo.

In another theory, just like Ichigo's Hollow and Shinigami powers are combined in one being (which we've always known), it wouldn't surprise me if his Quincy powers were combined as well. All the spiritual powers combined into one upon his conception. Since Bach is the source of all Quincy powers, when it was time for Ichigo to manifest the spirit of his Zanpakuto as all Shinigami do, the face of Bach, a face granted to his spirit powers through his Quincy blood, was the face his Zanpakuto took.

My theory is that Zangetsu only looks like Bach because of the Quincy powers-- but he is in fact Zangetsu.

 

[phantom]

Methinks that b/c of what's happened, Ichigo's bankai isn't really a bankai, but quincy powers (or something else) instead. That explains why it couldn't be stolen. Chou's theory also kinda makes sense, considering bach was baffled as to why ichigo's bankai couldn't be stolen which leads to the fact that he's unaware of the manifestation. The plot holes are finally closing in... @_@

 

[Chou Toshio]

Does ichigo posses a "true" Soul Slayer spirit connection?

Yes, White is Ichigo's soul slayer spirit. It was even said that White was created in a similar fashion to other Asauchi.

So just as:

Zabimaru was made by Nimaiya and used by Renji as his soul slayer spirit,

White was made by Aizen and used by Ichigo as his soul slayer spirit


And there's no particular peculiarity since White was made in a very similar fashion to Zabimaru and other spirits. The only real difference is that White is also a Hollow and grants ichigo Hollow powers.

 

[Sidfrid]

The only real difference is that White is also a Hollow and grants ichigo Hollow powers.

THIS actually made sense, I will go with this idea.

 

[Soul Fly]

That made sense, thanks for the clear up, but I'll still wait a chapter or two to whittle down plausible theories.

 

[Shinryu]

I swear every time it ends on a cliffhanger like that I want to beat my head in until next week...

 

[Chou Toshio]

HAH

So Ol' Man Zangetsu was pretty much what Trini or my posts described

-He isn't Juha himself
-He's not plotting to get Ichigo
-He is a guardian protector of Ichigo
-He hasn't been lying up until now for the most part
-His true identity is the spirit being that represents Ichigo's Quincy Powers (just as the hollow is the spirit that represents his Shinigami/Hollow powers)


Anyone else think Ichigo will now be able to freely use his innate Quincy powers as well? And maybe his Quincy powers will combine with Zangetsu (like Zangetsu will be able to absorb surrounding reiatsu, or be infused with offensive Blud).

Sounds cool



That said...

Ol' Man Zangetsu's speech seems full of holes though, because he IS the one who saved Ichigo in the fight against Zeraki, and he DID teach Ichigo about Getsuga Tenshou's name. Also we have zero evidence that the hollow had anything to do with Ichigo's Bankai training. We only ever saw Ichigo fighting Ol' Man Zangetsu. PLUS Zangetsu's form changed when Ichigo visited while using Bankai (Tensa Zangetsu)

Tensa Zangetsu's spirit clearly looks like an even younger Juha, and nothing like the Hollow.

Why would Ichigo's Quincy powers take on a different form during Bankai? That's dumb. Unless this Tensa Zangetsu face is also a lie.

Furthermore, if Zangetsu didn't want Ichigo to be a Shinigami, wouldn't he have been thrilled to teach "the final Getsuga Tenshou?" it would let Ichigo easily crush his opponent (therefore avoid danger), while completely getting rid of his Shinigami powers. Unless Ol' Man Zangetsu wanted those Shinigami powers around and latent, "just in case" they were needed to protect Ichigo.

Finally-- why not just teach Ichigo to use his Quincy powers instead?????


Also, don't you think Yoroichi would have been able to recognize Juha way back when she oversaw Ichigo's Bankai training?

Ah what the fuck ever. This whole reveal is an ass-pull anyway. He definitely wasn't planning to make Ichigo a Quincy, or have Zangetsu be Ichigo's Quincy powers way back when.

 

[Pocket]

Yea, Chou, I agree with a lot of the plot holes you identified. The major plot twist still satisfies me, though.

With the voluntary disappearance of "Zangetsu," does Ichigo lose his Quincy powers?

 

[BLINGAS]

I guess i could try and give some answers to what I think.

My guess : Hes only had his quincy powers this whole time (:O :O :O :O)

Also at the point where you said, why didn't he just teach him final getsuga tenshou, you might've read the wrong translation again or missed it but Zangetsu (or the old juha w/e you wanna call him) stated that after awhile he saw how much Ichigo wanted to be a shinigami so he stopped trying to stop it.

Also, yoroichi 1. Might not be 1000 years old (idr timeline shit) or 2. She never actually saw juha.

just my thoughts.

 

[Box]

IMO, Old Man Zangetsu will now cease to exist as the dominant entity within Ichigo's soul, as opposed to simply disappearing. He will revert to being the inner shadow of sorts, a role thus far played by White.

If we examine the last few pages closely, we see that the blade envelops OMZ, an overshadowing so speak. OMZ continues to speak to Ichigo even as his form fades, implying that at least some residue of his presence must continue to reside within our hero. I think now Ichigo will become, once again, super OP with his full Shinigami power unleashed and will likely undergo Blut training some time in future in order to contest an Ishida who was foreshadowed to possess phenomenal untapped power.

I'd like to point out that this chapter's revelations have cleared up previous qualms as to why Ichigo is so god damn underpowered without his Hollow powers despite it being pointed out time and again that he possesses reiatsu greater than that of a Captain. Indeed, we can conclude that his power spikes can be attributed to massive emotional fluctuations given appropriate stimulus (contesting Zaraki in the first Soul Society arc, and shortly after defeating Byakuya, both in order to save Orihime) that allowed him to wrench more of his innate power from OMZ's grasp. In cases when White gains dominance over OMZ, Hollow Form Ichigo manifests - the epitome of Ichigo's strength.

That said, I think it is safe to assume that Ichigo now possesses power in Shinigami form equal to that of his previous hollow form's.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Yea, Chou, I agree with a lot of the plot holes you identified. The major plot twist still satisfies me, though.

With the voluntary disappearance of "Zangetsu," does Ichigo lose his Quincy powers?

I think the new "complete" or unhindered Zangetsu will allow Ichigo to access a great deal of his Quincy potential without training as a Quincy. Sort of how his Full Bring connected him back with his Shinigami powers.

@Tiffany-- the point is, OMZ didn't want Ichigo to be a Shinigami. I don't think he would stop Ichigo from using a technique that would make him lose his Shinigami powers.

 

[Shinryu]

Well if Zangetsu was solely providing Ichigo with his powers mostly, it is possible that final getsuga was a variant of the Quincy final form, as they both caused their users to lose their powers. And how'd Ichigo get his back? By getting stabbed with a reishi-infused blade. How'd Uryuu get his back? Being shot in the right place.

 

[Chou Toshio]

^Interesting theory

This is why we NEED the Japanese raws. The translations (all) are all so damn unclear as to whether OMZ WANTED to be the source of Ichigo's powers (wanted Ichigo to become a Quincy) or WAS the source of Ichigo's power (it's still possible that OMZ and White were combined into one combined spirit "power source", where Shinigami, Hollow, and Quincy powers were all combined). If it's a combined power, one could theorize Ichigo's Quincy powers granted his Zanpakuto a form beyond Bankai (final Getsuga). Final Getsuga does share a LOT of similarities with Quincy powers. Not just with Letz Stil 1-shot nature, but also because Zagetsu's physical body was replaced by a spirit energy weapon (like Quincy bows).


However...

Purely from common sense standpoint (which I would rely on in place of good Japanese RAWs), it's pretty clear that Ichigo has been using Shinigami powers, the source of which is obviously the hollow. In fact, looking at the plot, it makes sense that Ichigo's Quincy powers have been completely dormant until only recently being awakened.

To me, it seems that OMZ has been trying to block Ichigo's Shinigami powers (giving only what was necessary), and holding back his Quincy powers as well. He seems to have just wanted to keep Ichigo out of trouble.


I REALLY want the "new zangetsu" to be the embodiment of ALL Ichigo's spirit power.
-ALL his shinigami power released
-ALL his hollow power at his disposal
-ALL his raw (untrained) Quincy powers also infused.

The white color and cross shape of this new sword honestly suggests that it is imbued with Quincy power-- as if OMZ just stepped aside and let the flood gates go on Ichigo's Quincy powers.

 

[Shinryu]

Mmm, the 2 I've read seem more clear that he was the backbone source, with the true hollow taking over in the life/death situations. Reading Manymanga's translation, it also looked like he was also impersonating the "hollow Ichigo" parts as well when needed during the pseudo-training stuff.

I guess my theory for now is that more than likely, the Zangetsu/Quincy part cobbled together a working shikai and bankai to simulate the powers we've seen; after all in both forms his only attack is the getsuga tensho, which could be some kind of "memory" power from whitey, as after all Isshin used it on him. And really, all the bankai did was make him stronger and faster by compressing his reiatsu; what if that's another Quincy-esq thing, since quinces absorb reishi, surely they can compress it too?

Either way, I'm hopeful for new abilities, perhaps fire-related like his father, perhaps something more radical. Either way, it'd be kinda boring to see him go back to firing off getsugas again.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Mmm, the 2 I've read seem more clear that he was the backbone source (WTF does that even mean? We need raws for CONCRETE), with the true hollow taking over in the life/death situations. Reading Manymanga's translation, it also looked like ("looked like"? This is why we need JAP raws to CONFIRM) he was also impersonating the "hollow Ichigo" parts as well when needed during the pseudo-training stuff.

I guess my theory for now is that more than likely, the Zangetsu/Quincy part cobbled together a working shikai and bankai to simulate the powers we've seen (Wild and unfounded); after all in both forms his only attack is the getsuga tensho, which could be some kind of "memory" power from whitey, as after all Isshin used it on him. And really, all the bankai did was make him stronger and faster by compressing his reiatsu; what if that's another Quincy-esq thing, since quinces absorb reishi, surely they can compress it too?

Either way, I'm hopeful for new abilities, perhaps fire-related like his father, perhaps something more radical. Either way, it'd be kinda boring to see him go back to firing off getsugas again.

 

[Box]

Y'know I actually have access to Japanese raws periodically it's a shame I don't know japanese

 

[Shinryu]

.

Well if you happen to have raws and the ability to read Japanese, I'm all for your interpretation then, I'm just theorymoning based off what we have, as raws do me zero good since I can't read em. And even then translation seems to be up for speculation anyways seeing how these fan sites can't agree on what's being said anyways.

 

[Chou Toshio]

^I recently feel like the level of translation ability has been dropping. Even mangastream (who are usually amazing) was pretty meh this last week.

However, when I read the Japanese versions, there's usually very little if any room for interpretation (though sometimes the exact meaning can be difficult to translate-- here in lies the problem). I mean, they're just comic books... It's not like we're interpreting Shakespeare here.

When I lived in Japan I would usually read the scan, then either buy JUMP at 7-11 when it came out (the scanlations are available BEFORE the general publication-- scary no?), or wait until my local Ramen or Curry restaurants would buy it and put in on the shelf. Then I'd just go eat lunch or dinner there (with the goal of reading the raws).

No idea how to get my hands on them from here (without forking out lots of dough).

Y'know I actually have access to Japanese raws periodically it's a shame I don't know japanese

gimme